Purgatory And Prayers For The Dead.

[RileyG]

The Roman Catholic Church utilizes a couple of NT Scriptures to support their position, but it is undeniable that it's roots are found with Plato, then the Hellenist. The Roman Catholic Church did not have purgatory as formal teaching until the 1,100's. It culminated with the practice of indulgences and intercessory pray.

It was defined at the Council of Florence, but prayers for the dead are far more ancient.

***edit: oops! Second Council of Lyon. Not Florence.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Salt Lake City? What?

Scripture was already cited. 2 Maccabees 12:43-46. Since you don't accept the Deutero-Canonical books, I don't expect you to accept this answer.

Also, the earliest Christians, as Jews, would have prayed for the dead. It was part of their tradition.

I do not accept sola scriptura.

There are posters who understand quite plainly you do not accept sola scriptura -

I do not accept the Apocrypha, tradition nor extrabiblical writings as Divinely Inspired.

Neither of us have to keep repeating our stance. They challenge is to express our thoughts and reasons and come to an understanding.

We both have to understand that this is the Theology forum - it is not exclusive to one Christian Denomination, therefore there will be posters from a variety of Denominations both Roman Catholic and as we are called Protestant.

 

[John 6:29]

Salt Lake City? What?

Scripture was already cited. 2 Maccabees 12:43-46. Since you don't accept the Deutero-Canonical books, I don't expect you to accept this answer.

Also, the earliest Christians, as Jews, would have prayed for the dead. It was part of their tradition.

I do not accept sola scriptura.

Salt Lake City is the LDS headquarters. Their doctrine is like Rome's regarding prayers for the dead.
Since it is clear you are a Roman Catholic, could you comment on the following short video please? I have never got a response from a Roman Catholic and would like to know if what is stated is true to the belief of yours and Rome. Thanks in advance.

 

[RileyG]

There are posters who understand quite plainly you do not accept sola scriptura -

I do not accept the Apocrypha, tradition nor extrabiblical writings as Divinely Inspired.

Neither of us have to keep repeating our stance. They challenge is to express our thoughts and reasons and come to an understanding

Firstly, my apologies. I hope I did not come off as rude.

God bless

 

[RileyG]

Salt Lake City is the LDS headquarters. Their doctrine is like Rome's regarding prayers for the dead.
Since it is clear you are a Roman Catholic, could you comment on the following short video please? I have never got a response from a Roman Catholic and would like to know if what is stated is true to the belief of yours and Rome. Thanks in advance.

AntiCatholic propaganda. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Always in His Presence]

It was defined at the Council of Florence, but prayers for the dead are far more ancient.

***edit: oops! Second Council of Lyon. Not Florence.

That would be 1,200 years after the first Century -

Prayers for the dead have been offered for millennia, Greek, Hellenist, Hebrew. Longevity of a practice does not equate to being Scripturally accurate, nor mandated.

 

[John 6:29]

AntiCatholic propaganda. Nothing more, nothing less.

Are you really the kind of person who denies what is clearly stated in front of your own eyes and ears? All you did was make a juvenile comment and ignore what was presented. State what was wrong with anything clearly shown in the vid, or should all of us follow the leftist mantra of ignoring our lying eyes and ears?

 

[Always in His Presence]

Firstly, my apologies. I hope I did not come off as rude.

God bless

No apologies necessary, there is no offense taken. I appreciate you my friend.

 

[RileyG]

That would be 1,200 years after the first Century -

Prayers for the dead have been offered for millennia, Greek, Hellenist, Hebrew. Longevity of a practice does not equate to being Scripturally accurate, nor mandated.

Hebrew? So the Jews prayed for the dead, yes. ?

 

[Always in His Presence]

Hebrew? So the Jews prayed for the dead, yes. ?

Depending on whom you read after. Yes

 

[ozso]

Salt Lake City is the LDS headquarters. Their doctrine is like Rome's regarding prayers for the dead.
Since it is clear you are a Roman Catholic, could you comment on the following short video please? I have never got a response from a Roman Catholic and would like to know if what is stated is true to the belief of yours and Rome. Thanks in advance.

How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! Isaiah 14:12

“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” Revelation 22:16

 

[ozso]

Are you really the kind of person who denies what is clearly stated in front of your own eyes and ears? All you did was make a juvenile comment and ignore what was presented. State what was wrong with anything clearly shown in the vid, or should all of us follow the leftist mantra of ignoring our lying eyes and ears?

Are you really the kind of person who doesn't put claims to the test? What I did was look at a series of translations of Isaiah 14:12 to see that "lucifer" translates as "morning star" in many of them. And then I looked up how many times "morning star" appears in the Bible. Which brought me to Revelation 22:16 in which Jesus calls Himself the "Morning Star".

The rendering in the video was sloppy at best, and intentionally deceptive at worst. Therefore I think RileyG was most likely quite accurate in his statement.

 

[dzheremi]

Are you really the kind of person who denies what is clearly stated in front of your own eyes and ears? All you did was make a juvenile comment and ignore what was presented. State what was wrong with anything clearly shown in the vid, or should all of us follow the leftist mantra of ignoring our lying eyes and ears?

I'm not Riley, or Roman Catholic, but it's clearly not translated very well, in that not all the Latin is even present in the subtitles or in translation. From what I could make out of the relevant portion (the last line is just a common refrain you can find all over in Latin Christian texts), it's this:

Flammas eius Lucifer matutinus inveniat (May Lucifer find his flames in the morning)
ille, inquam, Lucifer, qui nescit o casum (he, I say, is Lucifer, who does not know the fate*)
Christus filius tuus, qui ingressus ab infernis (Christ, Your Son, Who entered from the inferno)
humano generi serenus illuxit (He dawned serenely on the human race)

* This is the line that is not fully present in the Latin or in translation, though I don't know if he's actually saying "o casum" or not -- that's just what it sounds like to my ears.

I don't really understand the full context of this or what it is trying to say (I'm assuming it's part of a longer hymn), but anyway it is clear that Lucifer is not being declared God anywhere in it. I don't know where you or the video-makers get that idea.

 

[prodromos]

Are you really the kind of person who doesn't put claims to the test? What I did was look at a series of translations of Isaiah 14:12 to see that "lucifer" translates as "morning star" in many of them. And then I looked up how many times "morning star" appears in the Bible. Which brought me to Revelation 22:16 in which Jesus calls Himself the "Morning Star".

The rendering in the video was sloppy at best, and intentionally deceptive at worst. Therefore I think RileyG was most likely quite accurate in his statement.

There is also 2 Peter 1:19

 

[prodromos]

I'm not Riley, or Roman Catholic, but it's clearly not translated very well, in that not all the Latin is even present in the subtitles or in translation. From what I could make out of the relevant portion (the last line is just a common refrain you can find all over in Latin Christian texts), it's this:

Flammas eius Lucifer matutinus inveniat (May Lucifer find his flames in the morning)
ille, inquam, Lucifer, qui nescit o casum (he, I say, is Lucifer, who does not know the fate*)
Christus filius tuus, qui ingressus ab infernis (Christ, Your Son, Who entered from the inferno)
humano generi serenus illuxit (He dawned serenely on the human race)

* This is the line that is not fully present in the Latin or in translation, though I don't know if he's actually saying "o casum" or not -- that's just what it sounds like to my ears.

I don't really understand the full context of this or what it is trying to say (I'm assuming it's part of a longer hymn), but anyway it is clear that Lucifer is not being declared God anywhere in it. I don't know where you or the video-makers get that idea.

I wonder why comments are turned off for the video on YouTube? Perhaps they wanted to silence all the Latin speakers who were correcting their 'translation'.

 

[prodromos]

Salt Lake City is the LDS headquarters. Their doctrine is like Rome's regarding prayers for the dead.

In what way? Please be specific and cite reputable sources.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Salt Lake City is the LDS headquarters. Their doctrine is like Rome's regarding prayers for the dead.
Since it is clear you are a Roman Catholic, could you comment on the following short video please? I have never got a response from a Roman Catholic and would like to know if what is stated is true to the belief of yours and Rome. Thanks in advance.

For those interested and willing to watch the full ceremony for the canonisation of the saints I offer this URL

 

[John 6:29]

It appears I have stumble upon a Roman Catholic discussion forum

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It appears I have stumble upon a Roman Catholic discussion forum

Then thank the Lord our God for his mercy extended to you in the discovery of the ancient faith which reveals the way, truth, and life of Christ.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Citation from anywhere in the New Testament in instruction or example, please

Sorry, but I was quite busy Monday and Tuesday and could not reply.

I consider that 2 Tim 1:16-18 makes most sense if we understand that Onesiphorus had died and Paul prays for his family, AND THEN prays for him. Granted you may not expect to see that, and thus not be able to see it. But I do think it reflects longstanding Jewish practice to pray for the dead, this being a brief example of it.

16 May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, 17 but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me-- 18 may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day--and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus. RSVCE