Where is "go to heaven" in the Bible?

[CoreyD]

I don't see how that excludes Abraham from also coming to the Father, the source and origin of eternal life.
And NO ONE comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ (John 14:6)

Coming to the father? How did that get in here?
I'm not seeing what that has to do with going to heaven or not, or being of the New Jerusalem, or not.

Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.

Now which is your position?
1.) Abraham will never come to the Father for divine life.
2.) Abraham will come to the Father yet through ANOTHER way besides the Son of God

Or perhaps your position is that some people will have the life of the divine Father
but will not be a part of the "habitation of God in spirit".

To get the answer to your question, you need to go all the way back to the beginning, and come forward.
However, I'll make it short.
Titus 3:3 This due to being born sinners - alien from God. Not his children. Deuteronomy 32:5
We can get back to God. Ephesians 4:13-32 How?
There is only one way. John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Jesus' sacrificial death. Acts 4:12

The way back to the father is through Jesus Christ. His blood covers the stain of sin, of all men. 1 Timothy 2:5, 6;

But this is shortsighted. This is seeing the receiving of the Father's divine life only for
personal, indiviualistic, isolated blessing having nothing to do with His living temple.

The receiving of the Father's life is of course a personal blessing.
But God has His purpose to dwell in His people as a corporate expression of God mingled with man.

I'll prove to you that God ALWAYS wanted to live in man from Isaiah 66:1,2

Thus says Jehovah, / Heaven is My throne, / And the earth the footstool for My feet. / Where then is the house that you will build for Me, / And where is the place of My rest?

For all these things My hand has made, / And so all these things have come into being, declares Jehovah. / But to this kind of man will I look, to him who is poor / And of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at My word.

The throne of God is Heaven.
The earth is His footstool.
All the created things His own hand made.

Being that the case WHERE, He asks, is His house? Where is the place of His rest? How will man build a temple for Him to dwell in ?
To this kind of man He will look for His dwelling place - But to this kind of man will I look, to him who is poor / And of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at My word.

That means the Son of God. He is the one absolutely meek, poor in Himself, and of a absolutely contrite spirit trembling at the word of His Father. First off God will look to Jesus as the man Who is the living house of God for His rest.

This is His beloved Son in whom He is well pleased. The dwelling of God in man starts with the incarnation of Christ.

Why do you believe that God wants to live in man? Is God not eternal, immotal, infinte, the beginning and the end?
God lives in heaven. Hebrews 12:22-24

Before I address this I would ask you about a remark you made.
You remarked something to the effect that I was teaching doctrines of demons.

I would never say that.
I said, I believe we had better be more concerned that we are being taught the truth, rather than teachings of demons. John 18:37: 1 Timothy 4:1
You don't agree?

Before I go on, in your next post to me explain this.
Specifically HOW do any demons or any of Satan's emmissaries benefit from me teaching
that Abraham will be in the final New Jerusalem?

Your accusation amounts to me furthering somehow Satan's schemes by
saying Abraham and the OT believers also arrive in the New Jerusalem.

How does that teaching further the schemes of the Devil and demons ?

To the question of '
Specifically HOW do any demons or any of Satan's emissaries benefit from a person teaching that Abraham will be in the final New Jerusalem?
Jesus said, at John 8:31, 32 “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

A person is not set free, if they are connected to false religion with its false teachings.
If they get the truth, they let go of lies and break free from the influence of Satan which leads persons along the road to destruction. Mathew 7:13-23

Paul tells us, The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

We may believe that one little lie does not hurt, but we aren't seeing the bigger picture if we think that way.
God's will is not something Satan wants revealed, so his ministers aren't going to reveal that truth. 2 Corinthians 11:14

I am a constituent of the Church.
You claim to be a Christian and you do not have such a confidence?
That is too bad if you do not think that Ephesians is not written with you as a Christian in mind.

Perhaps your churching life is very practically far from see something of His Body function.
Then you should ask the Lord that He cause this matter to become more apparent in your experience.

I believe that He will answer that desire.

"Paul addresses the Church" you say as if that is not believers in Christ.

The salutation of the letter:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints who are in Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus: (Eph. 1;1)

You may say that you and I do not live in Ephesus. But I would hope you would not say we are not to some extent "faithful in Christ Jesus."
The faithful are those who are faithful in "the faith" - (Eph. 4:13; 2 Tim. 4:7; Jude 3).

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (v.2)

You do not enjoy the grace of God? You have no enjoyment of the peace of God?
You cannot say that God is your dear heavenly Father or that Jesus is not Lord to you?

Enough of this nonsense. This letter is addressed to the universal church as well as that local assembly in
Ephesus.

Did I say something false?
Paul is not addressing the Church?

You don't understand, so I understand your reaction.
This is what I meant by what I previously mentioned.

Second Corinthains 5:1 is about what we are to receive.
You are reading into it where we GO.

The Apostle is speaking about what we expect to receive.
You are reading into that where we expect to go.

For we know that if our earthly tabernacle dwelling is taken down, we have a building from God, a dwelling not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens. For also in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our dwelling place from heaven,

Our dwelling place from heaven describes the origin of this glorified state - certainly not of this world.
We are to be clothed in His divine life and glory - swallowed up in ZOE life.

. . . we do not desire to be unclothed, but clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. (v.4b)

You didn't answer the question.
Are you saying that 2 Corinthians 5:1 is not saying persons will receive a body not made with hands, eternal in the heaven?

Is that because if you answer, your OP and argument, are proven false?
The question "Where is "go to heaven" in the Bible?" was already covered.
You wanted to know "Where is "go to heaven forever" in the Bible?".

You have your answer.
For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Asking a question with the preconceived idea that you covered every possibility that no answer can refute the idea, can be disappointing when an answer is given, I know.
However, if we love truth and we are humble, we will accept the answer.
Would you say you love the truth and are humble?

 

[oikonomia]

Coming to the father? How did that get in here?
I'm not seeing what that has to do with going to heaven or not, or being of the New Jerusalem, or not.

The Father is the source of life. You were born again? That is the Father who begot you.
His life is divine and rich and free. His life is flowing out from His uncreated self in Christ as the Spirit to
produce sons.

Look at the sign - And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb in the middle of its street. (Rev. 22:1)

That is the Triune God dispensing none other than the divine life of the Father throughout the entire city.
He rules His sons inwardly by flowing out His life from His throne, the place of His administration. In other words
He governs His children by the dispensing of His life in and through them.

The city is a city of divine life. Can you see the Trinity there? That throne of God and the Lamb pouring out the Spirit.
That shows what the Triune God does - dispense the Father's life through the Redeeming Son by means of the flowing Holy Spirit.

Man must come to the divine Father through the Lamb, the Redeeming Son of God, so that man may receive the Spirit.
And the Spirit is the flowing river of water of life as bright and clear as crystal supplying God's life and nature into the church, and into
New Jerusalem.

Stay with me a bit longer. Look at the verse 1 with the next verse. . . . a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb in the middle of its street. And on this side and on that side of the river was the tree of life,

You see the street signifies the way we WALK. The water of life is the Holy Spirit flowing down the very middle of the street.
This means we WALK along the way that the Holy Spirit flows within us. The way the street goes the water of the Spirit flows.
The way the Holy Spirit flows is the way the street for our walking goes.

I had to forget about songs which speak of the streets [plural] in New Jerusalem. There is only ONE street.
It is a street of transparent gold signifying the divine nature of the Father.
And the street [singular] of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.(21:21)

In the church there is no Baptist street, no Presbyterian street, and no denominational street.
There is no national street or country street or race street.
There is only the street of the divine nature of the Father- pure gold.
It is a transparent as crystal glass gold meaning that through our walk God is seen.

And we know that we are walking rightly by the flow of the Holy Spirit within us.
When we step away from the walking by the Father's divine nature we lose the flow of the Holy Spirit.
That is why the street has in its very middle the river of the water of life flowing the same direction as the street.

The church is a model of the city of life. The church is a precursor of the city of thirst quenching water of life.
The source of the life is the Father. That is why He is called Father.

Titus 3:3 This due to being born sinners - alien from God. Not his children. Deuteronomy 32:5
We can get back to God. Ephesians 4:13-32 How?
There is only one way. John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Jesus' sacrificial death. Acts 4:12

I certainly like that. His death and His resurrection.
In fact let's look at the gates of the New Jerusalem. Each of the twelve gates is of one PEARL.

And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the gates was, respectively, of one pearl. (Rev. 21:21a)

I hope you don't imagine a oyster the size of a mountain producing a pearl that big.
A pearl is produced by an oyster when it is wounded within by a foreign particle.
It then secrets out from itself a luquid that surrounds and covers that offending particle.
That is how a precious pearl is formed.

This is a sign, a symbolic picture conveying us the nature of the church and ultimately New Jerusalem.

Jesus Christ was that oyster who came down to the bottom of the sea of death, this sinful world.
And on the cross we wounded Him with our sins. Then He poured out His life for us and even around us.
This pouring out of Christ's life forms the gates on every side of the city.

Jesus is not only the Lamb of God. He in this sense is the Oyster of God whose death and resurrection
forms the very entrance into the kingdom of God.

And as soon as we enter in through the gate of His poured out life, we are immediately on the street of the Father's
divine nature. And immediately we must learn to walk by the Spirit's flowing out of our innermost being.
This is how God adminstrates, governs us, heals us, and supplies and refreshes us with His life.

The way back to the father is through Jesus Christ. His blood covers the stain of sin, of all men. 1 Timothy 2:5, 6;

There is not only the redemptive aspect of His dying for our sins.
There is the life imparting aspect of His resurrection life.
the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45b)

After accomplishing His redemptive death He rose to impart Himself into us
as the divine life giving Spirit. It is death AND resurrection.
Man is regenerated . . . by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Pet. 1:3)

Concering His death and resurrection, He said we live because He lives.

Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me; because I live, you also shall live. ( John 14:9)

I use the think "Lord, we will live whether you live or not."
Then I realized how foolish this thought was. He meant we shall live by His resurrection life and presence.
We will lay hold of the life which is really life. That is the indestructible One who is in resurrection.

The Spirit is "the Spirit of life".
For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death. (Rom. 8:2)

Why do you believe that God wants to live in man? Is God not eternal, immotal, infinte, the beginning and the end?
God lives in heaven. Hebrews 12:22-24

Jesus told us that He died and rose that He may live in us and we in God.

In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. (John 14:20)
"[T]hat day" is the day of His resurrection.
"[T]hat day" is the that the Lord Jesus is ALIVE and AVAILABLE.
We can know Him and receive Him into our heart. So He can live in us.

Paul pioneered in this experience for the church. And he wrote of how Jesus was his whole history and the one
who presently lived in him. He was grafted into this resurrected Person like a weak branch is grafted into a healthy tree.

I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. (Gal. 2:20)

We need to stand upon these facts also. We are crucified with Christ and He lives now in us.
The life we now live we live in faith, and it is even His faith - the Son of God who loved us and gave Himself up for us.

It was emphatic that Paul wanted the churches to know Christ lived in them.
Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved? (2 Cor. 13:5)

Jesus Christ has to take shape more and more in us. Christ has to be FORMED in us. That is grow in us.
And for this Paul lagbored as a mother in labor - that Christ who was living in the Christians would grow and be formed
in all of their living and personality.

My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ is formed in you, (Gal. 4:19)

As Christ is formed in us the practical churching life emerges.
And then as Christ is formed in us the New Jerusalem emerges.
She is something the Christians are being transformed INTO rather than a place to which they are going.

This is what the subtle enemy of God, Satan, would keep the Christians blinded to.

I would never say that.
I said, I believe we had better be more concerned that we are being taught the truth, rather than teachings of demons. John 18:37: 1 Timothy 4:1
You don't agree?

Yes. It sounded like an innuendo that I was teaching a doctrine of demons.
I understand now, I think, that you were not saying that.

I stop here with this post. I only remind you of the Lord's words Himself.
His death and resurrection was to come make an abode with us - He and His Father.
That is God living in man- by the Spirit - bringing the Father and Son into man.

Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him. (John 14:23)

 

[oikonomia]

Paul tells us, The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

Okay, I have an Amen to all of this.

We may believe that one little lie does not hurt, but we aren't seeing the bigger picture if we think that way.
God's will is not something Satan wants revealed, so his ministers aren't going to reveal that truth. 2 Corinthians 11:14

Okay. This is good fellowship too.

Did I say something false?
Paul is not addressing the Church?

Ephesians is a letter written with the church as audience.
Both the local church - that church which was in Ephesus and the universal church throughout all history.

That letter is to the church.

The letters to the seven churches were to be heard by ALL the seven.
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (Rev. 2:7)

This phrase is repeated each time for seven times.
What is written to one church is to be heard by all who have an ear in any church.

What the Apostle Paul wrote to the church in Colossia was also to be read and heard by
the church in Laodicea and vica versa.

And when this letter is read among you, cause that it be read in the church of the Laodiceans also, and that you also read the one from Laodicea. (Col. 4:16)

The Apostle Pauls' ways and teaching to any church were to be known in all the other churches as well.

Because of this I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, even as I teach everywhere in every church. (1 Cor. 4:17)

The point here is the churches were to be in fellowship.
The Lord's supply of light and truth to any one was His supply to any other church as well.
This is not uniformity. This is fellowship and mutual communion together in a common living.

Adminstratively, each local church was administered by local overseers.
None were to be isolated. All were to be in fellowship and in the same vision and apostolic teaching.

You don't understand, so I understand your reaction.
This is what I meant by what I previously mentioned.

Let's count it as a misunderstanding of some type.
Hold fast to that which is good.

You didn't answer the question.
Are you saying that 2 Corinthians 5:1 is not saying persons will receive a body not made with hands, eternal in the heaven?

It says as much does it not? I mean the believers are to receive this transfigured body of glory- a building, clothing.
For we know that if our earthly tabernacle dwelling is taken down, we have a building from God, a dwelling not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.

In light of what else we read in the New Testament we should realize that this swallowing up of our mortality OUTWARDLY
is also the springing up from WITHIN of the same eternal life.

Think of it as springing up from within and clothing over from without.
It is like two lines of the same circle meeting together.

For example in John 4 we see the indwelling Spirit is of eternal life springing up from within as a gushing fountain.

But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall by no means thirst forever; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into eternal life. (John 4:14)

That is eternal life springing up from within. On the other hand the eternal life comes to swallow us up or cloth us from without.

For also in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our dwelling place from heaven, (2 Cor. 5:2)
. . . clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. (v.4b)

From within and from without the SOURCE of this eternal life is with Christ the One who is in us and yet also in heaven.

The same clothing or swallowing up is taught in the transfiguration and change in 1 Cor. 15.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

And when this corruptible will put on incorruption and this mortal will put on immortality, then the word which is written will come to pass, “Death has been swallowed up unto victory.” (1 Cor. 15:52-54)

Is that because if you answer, your OP and argument, are proven false?
The question "Where is "go to heaven" in the Bible?" was already covered.
You wanted to know "Where is "go to heaven forever" in the Bible?".

That is a question not a statement.
Where is the teaching?

Here is the OP.
===============================================================
Where in the Bible do people get the concept of God wanting the saved to "go to heaven" forever?

I say the degree that people do not see what the church is is indicated by how strong is
their belief that God wants them to "go to heaven" to be in heaven forever.

Demonstrate that "going to heaven" forever as God's desire for the saved is biblical teaching.
=========================================================

1.) It starts with a question.
2.) It continues with an opinion which I stand by still.
3.) It ends with a request for demonstration of a teaching.
That is the OP.

You cannot say the OP is proved wrong Corey.
You can say that you demonstrated WHERE you would locate the basis for going to heaven forever.

It is arguable that that entails being in heaven for eternity.
But it is not too bad as a basis for such a hope.

My response was that that verse you refer to is more about what we shall receive which has its origin and SOURCE in heaven.
In my opinion you are reading into the passage more about where we are to GO.

But you cannot say you proved the OP wrong because OP basically asks a question.
And I continue to stand by this opinion of mine which I think has been well borne out by many responses to this OP.

I say the degree that people do not see what the church is is indiicated by how strong is
their belief that God wants them to "go to heaven" to be in heaven forever.

You have your answer.
For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

That is your point. "[E]ternal in the heavens" means to you we have to GO to heaven for eternity to experience this building.

But we do not see this living above in heaven for eternity for the experience of the transfigured body.
And I will prove that to you now with Matthew 13 in the parable of the wheat and the tares.
The Lord Himself provides us the interpretation so we need not speculate.

The Son of Man will send His angels, and they will collect out of His kingdom all the stumbling blocks and those who practice lawlessness, And will cast them into the furnace of fire. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

If the kingdom of the heavens IS HEAVEN, then this means the tares and the wheat are both taken up to heaven
to be sorted out. Once He has brought the false Christians and the true Christians TO HEAVEN He removes the
false believers and the ones left in HEAVEN then shine forth like the sun "in the kingdom of their Father."

You see, rather than the kingdom of the heavens being heaven itself (13:24) - The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man sowing good seed in his field, the kingdom of the heavens is the kingdom whose SOURCE and ORIGIN is from heaven.

The seperation of the false believers from the true (tares from wheat) occurs on the earth where the sowing occurred.
The sowing did not occur in heaven but in the world. And the world is the field (v.38).

And the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; (Matt. 13:38)

In the world (the field) the Lord sowed.
In the world (the field) the enemy sowed false believers amongst the true.
In the world at the end the angels will elliminate the false nominal Christians from the true.
This seperation takes place so that remainin in the world the sons of the Father will shine forth as the sun "in the kingdom of their Father".
That kingdom being on the earth. Its source is from heaven.

In like manner I would take "we have a building from God, a dwelling not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens" not to mean
that we can only be clothed on by it by going to heaven. Rather it has its source and origin from heaven.

Are you saying that only up in heaven may the believers have this glorified and transfigured body ?
That to me that is a more a boast of the Devil. That is that there is no place on the earth for the sons of God to shine forth.
That narrative is playing into the Devil's boast that there is no place on the earth for God's kingdom of glorified sons.

Asking a question with the preconceived idea that you covered every possibility that no answer can refute the idea, can be disappointing when an answer is given, I know.

I am no dissappointed. I like your effort to go through the Scriptures which is what I asked in the OP.
But the OP states a question and then an opinion which I still stand by.

I think the degree to which many insist on going to heaven forever as God's goal
corresponds to a lack of seeing the nature of the church.

And when you say the letter Ephesians was written to the Church and not us, how can I not be confirmed in this.
Of course Ephesians is written to us as members of the church universal. (If you are truely a Christian which I want to assume).

So here in you we have a Christian brother (?) who argues for being in heaven forever for a immortal glorifed body YET . .
is somehow not too clear that God wants to live in us ? ? ?

However, if we love truth and we are humble, we will accept the answer.
Would you say you love the truth and are humble?

We all could stand to take Christ as our humility.
There is very much about God living in the believers. I think we should humble ourselves and open up to these
biblical truths.

Christians must see that it is not desireable to be in heaven forever and Christ not be thier life within?
He is our life if we are reborn.

When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory. (Col. 3:4)

 

[oikonomia]

Corey, Am I misunderstanding you about the letter to the church in Ephesus ?
Exactly what did you mean about that letter?

 

[CoreyD]

The Father is the source of life. You were born again? That is the Father who begot you.

No. I was not born again.
What evidence do you have that you are born again?

His life is divine and rich and free. His life is flowing out from His uncreated self in Christ as the Spirit to
produce sons.

Sons in heaven. Adopted, and brought from the earth. Revelation 14:4; Romans 8:14-17

Look at the sign - And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb in the middle of its street. (Rev. 22:1)

Yes. It's a sign. Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it (σημαίνω sémainó: to give a sign) by his angel unto his servant John:

In other words, it's symbolic of, or represents something. It is not literal.
Many persons make the mistake of reading Revelations literally, Except when they get to beasts.

That is the Trune God dispensing none other than the divine life of the Father throughout the entire city.
He rules His sons inwardly by flowing out His life from His throne, the place of His administration. In other words
He governs His children by the dispensing of His life in and through them.

That's an interesting idea you have there.
Only, no scripture backs that up. It's an idea, and may sound like a good one.
We should look to scripture for understanding. Not our thoughts. Would you agree?

The city is a city of divine life. Can you see the Trinity there? That throne of God and the Lamb pouring out the Spirit.
That shows what the Triune God does - dispense the Father's life through the Redeeming Son by means of the flowing Holy Spirit.

Man must come to the divine Father through the Lamb, the Redeeming Son of God, so that man may receive the Spirit.
And the Spirit is the flowing river of water of life as bright and clear as crystal supplying God's life and nature into the church, and into
New Jerusalem.

Stay with me a bit longer. Look at the verse 1 with the next verse. . . . a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb in the middle of its street. And on this side and on that side of the river was the tree of life,

You see the street signifies the way we WALK. The water of life is the Holy Spirit flowing down the very middle of the street.
This means we WALK along the way that the Holy Spirit flows within us. The way the street goes the water of the Spirit flows.
The way the Holy Spirit flows is the way the street for our walking goes.

I had to forget about songs which speak of the streets [plural] in New Jerusalem. There is only ONE street.
It is a street of transparent gold signifying the divine nature of the Father.
And the street [singular] of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.(21:21)

In the church there is no Baptist street, no Presbyterian street, and no denominational street.
There is no national street or country street or race street.
There is only the street of the divine nature of the Father- pure gold.
It is a transparent as crystal glass gold meaning that through our walk God is seen.

And we know that we are walking rightly by the flow of the Holy Spirit within us.
When we step away from the walking by the Father's divine nature we lose the flow of the Holy Spirit.
That is why the street has in its very middle the river of the water of life flowing the same direction as the street.

The church is a model of the city of life. The church is a precursor of the city of thirst quenching water of life.
The source of the life is the Father. That is why He is called Father.

Interesting idea, as I said.
Can we stick to a scriptural discussion. One where scripture speaks instead of us? I prefer that.

I certainly like that. His death and His resurrection.
In fact let's look at the gates of the New Jerusalem. Each of the twelve gates is of one PEARL.

And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the gates was, respectively, of one pearl. (Rev. 21:21a)

I hope you don't imagine a oyster the size of a mountain producing a pearl that big.
A peral is produced by ab oyster when it is wounded within by a foreign particle.
It then secrets out from itself a luquid that surrounds and covers that offending particle.
That is how a precious pearl is formed.

This is a sign, a symbolic picture conveying us the nature of the church and ultimately New Jerusalem.

Jesus Christ was that oyster who came down to the bottom of the sea of death, this sinful world.
And on the cross we wounded Him with our sins. Then He poured out His life for us and even around us.
This pouring out of Christ's life forms the gates on every side of the city.

Jesus is not only the Lamb of God. He in this sense is the Oyster of God whose death and resurrection
forms the very entrance into the kingdom of God.

And as soon as we enter in through the gate of His poured out life, we are immediately on the street of the Father's
divine nature. And immediately we must learn to walk by the Spirit's flowing out of our innermost being.
This is how God adminstrates, governs us, heals us, and supplies and refreshes us with His life.


There is not only the redemptive aspect of His dying for our sins.
There is the life imparting aspect of His resurrection life.
the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45b)

After accomplishing His redemptive death He rose to impart Himself into us
as the divine life giving Spirit. It is death AND resurrection.
Man is regenerated . . . by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Pet. 1:3)

Concering His death and resurrection, He said we live because He lives.

Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me; because I live, you also shall live. ( John 14:9)

I use the think "Lord, we will live whether you live or not."
Then I realized how foolish this thought was. He meant we shall live by His resurrection life and presence.
We will lay hold of the life which is really life. That is the indestructible One who is in resurrection.

The Spirit is "the Spirit of life".
For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death. (Rom. 8:2)


Jesus told us that He died and rose that He may live in us and we in God.

In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. (John 14:20)
"[T]hat day" is the day of His resurrection.
"[T]hat day" is the that the Lord Jesus is ALIVE and AVAILABLE.
We can know Him and receive Him into our heart. So He can live in us.

Paul pioneered in this experience for the church. And he wrote of how Jesus was his whole history and the one
who presently lived in him. He was grafted into this resurrected Person like a weak branch is grafted into a healthy tree.

I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. (Gal. 2:20)

We need to stand upon these facts also. We are crucified with Christ and He lives now in us.
The life we now live we live in faith, and it is even His faith - the Son of God who loved us and gave Himself up for us.

It was emphatic that Paul wanted the churches to know Christ lived in them.
Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved? (2 Cor. 13:5)

Jesus Christ has to take shape more and more in us. Christ has to be FORMED in us. That is grow in us.
And for this Paul lagbored as a mother in labor - that Christ who was living in the Christians would grow and be formed
in all of their living and personality.

My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ is formed in you, (Gal. 4:19)

As Christ is formed in us the practical churching life emerges.
And then as Christ is formed in us the New Jerusalem emerges.
She is something the Christians are being transformed INTO rather than a place to which they are going.

This is what the subtle enemy of God, Satan, would keep the Christians blinded to.

That's quite a lot of commentary..
You did refer to scriptures, which is good, but I don't hear the scriptures having the final say.
See an example here:

Yes. It sounded like an innuendo that I was teaching a doctrine of demons.
I understand now, I think, that you were not saying that.

I stop here with this post. I only remind you of the Lord's words Himself.
His death and resurrection was to come make an abode with us - He and His Father.
That is God living in man- by the Spirit - bringing the Father and Son into man.

Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him. (John 14:23)

Now you're talking. That's a term, which means, Now, you are saying something we can actually consider.
This is a good scripture.

So, let's allow the scriptures to speak.
John 14
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You have faith in God; have faith also in me.
2 In My Father’s (οἰκία oikia: a house, dwelling) are many (μονή moné: an abiding, an abode); if not, I would have told you. I am going away to prepare (τόπος topos: a place) for you.
3 And if I go and prepare (τόπος topos: a place) for you, I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, that where I am, you may be also.
4 And you know where I am going."
5 Thomas says to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going; how can we know the way?"
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also (καί kai: and, even, also); and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
Cutting to the chase.
19 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.
20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our (μονή moné: an abiding, an abode) with him.

We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
Where?
Jesus already told them :

In My Father’s house, dwelling are many abodes; if not, I would have told you. I am going away to prepare a place for you.​

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, that where I am, you may be also.​

And you know where I am going.​

We will come to him and make Our abode with him In My Father’s house where there are many abodes; I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, that where I am, you may be also.

I do like when the scriptures speak. Don't you? They make much more sense than our long commentaries. Don't you agree?

 

[CoreyD]

Okay, I have an Amen to all of this.

Okay. This is good fellowship too.

Ephesians is a letter written with the church as audience.
Both the local church - that church which was in Ephesus and the universal church throughout all history.

That letter is to the church.

The letters to the seven churches were to be heard by ALL the seven.
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (Rev. 2:7)

This phrase is repeated each time for seven times.
What is written to one church is to be heard by all who have an ear in any church.

What the Apostle Paul wrote to the church in Colossia was also to be read and heard by
the church in Laodicea and vica versa.

And when this letter is read among you, cause that it be read in the church of the Laodiceans also, and that you also read the one from Laodicea. (Col. 4:16)

The Apostle Pauls' ways and teaching to any church were to be known in all the other churches as well.

Because of this I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, even as I teach everywhere in every church. (1 Cor. 4:17)

The point here is the churches were to be in fellowship.
The Lord's supply of light and truth to any one was His supply to any other church as well.
This is not uniformity. This is fellowship and mutual communion together in a common living.

Adminstratively, each local church was administered by local overseers.
None were to be isolated. All were to be in fellowship and in the same vision and apostolic teaching.


Let's count it as a misunderstanding of some type.
Hold fast to that which is good.

It says as much does it not? I mean the believers are to receive this transfigured body of glory- a building, clothing.
For we know that if our earthly tabernacle dwelling is taken down, we have a building from God, a dwelling not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.

In light of what else we read in the New Testament we should realize that this swallowing up of our mortality OUTWARDLY
is also the springing up from WITHIN of the same eternal life.

Think of it as springing up from within and clothing over from without.
It is like two lines of the same circle meeting together.

For example in John 4 we see the indwelling Spirit is of eternal life springing up from within as a gushing fountain.

But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall by no means thirst forever; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into eternal life. (John 4:14)

That is eternal life springing up from within. On the other hand the eternal life comes to swallow us up or cloth us from without.

For also in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our dwelling place from heaven, (2 Cor. 5:2)
. . . clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. (v.4b)

From within and from without the SOURCE of this eternal life is with Christ the One who is in us and yet also in heaven.

The same clothing or swallowing up is taught in the transfiguration and change in 1 Cor. 15.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

And when this corruptible will put on incorruption and this mortal will put on immortality, then the word which is written will come to pass, “Death has been swallowed up unto victory.” (1 Cor. 15:52-54)

Can you please explain what you understand "the Church" to be?

That is a question not a statement.
Where is the teaching?

Here is the OP.
===============================================================
Where in the Bible do people get the concept of God wanting the saved to "go to heaven" forever?

I say the degree that people do not see what the church is is indicated by how strong is
their belief that God wants them to "go to heaven" to be in heaven forever.

Demonstrate that "going to heaven" forever as God's desire for the saved is biblical teaching.
=========================================================

1.) It starts with a question.
2.) It continues with an opinion which I stand by still.
3.) It ends with a request for demonstration of a teaching.
That is the OP.

You cannot say the OP is proved wrong Corey.
You can say that you demonstrated WHERE you would locate the basis for going to heaven forever.

It is arguable that that entails being in heaven for eternity.
But it is not too bad as a basis for such a hope.

My response was that that verse you refer to is more about what we shall receive which has its origin and SOURCE in heaven.
In my opinion you are reading into the passage more about where we are to GO.

But you cannot say you proved the OP wrong because OP basically asks a question.
And I continue to stand by this opinion of mine which I think has been well borne out by many responses to this OP.

I say the degree that people do not see what the church is is indiicated by how strong is
their belief that God wants them to "go to heaven" to be in heaven forever.




That is your point. "[E]ternal in the heavens" means to you we have to GO to heaven for eternity to experience this building.

But we do not see this living above in heaven for eternity for the experience of the transfigured body.
And I will prove that to you now with Matthew 13 in the parable of the wheat and the tares.
The Lord Himself provides us the interpretation so we need not speculate.

The Son of Man will send His angels, and they will collect out of His kingdom all the stumbling blocks and those who practice lawlessness, And will cast them into the furnace of fire. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

If the kingdom of the heavens IS HEAVEN, then this means the tares and the wheat are both taken up to heaven
to be sorted out. Once He has brought the false Christians and the true Christians TO HEAVEN He removes the
false believers and the ones left in HEAVEN then shine forth like the sun "in the kingdom of their Father."

You see, rather than the kingdom of the heavens being heaven itself (13:24) - The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man sowing good seed in his field, the kingdom of the heavens is the kingdom whose SOURCE and ORIGIN is from heaven.

The seperation of the false believers from the true (tares from wheat) occurs on the earth where the sowing occurred.
The sowing did not occur in heaven but in the world. And the world is the field (v.38).

And the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; (Matt. 13:38)

In the world (the field) the Lord sowed.
In the world (the field) the enemy sowed false believers amongst the true.
In the world at the end the angels will elliminate the false nominal Christians from the true.
This seperation takes place so that remainin in the world the sons of the Father will shine forth as the sun "in the kingdom of their Father".
That kingdom being on the earth. Its source is from heaven.

In like manner I would take "we have a building from God, a dwelling not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens" not to mean
that we can only be clothed on by it by going to heaven. Rather it has its source and origin from heaven.

Are you saying that only up in heaven may the believers have this glorified and transfigured body ?
That to me is a more a boast of the Devil. That is that there is no place on the earth for the sons of God to shine forth.
That narrative is playing into the Devil's boast that there is no place on the earth for God's kingdom of glorified sons.


I am no dissappointed. I like your effort to go through the Scriptures which is what I asked in the OP.
But the OP states a question and then an opinion which I still stand by.

I think the degree to which many insist on going to heaven forever as God's goal
corresponds to a lack of seeing the nature of the church.

And when you say the letter Ephesians was written to the Church and not us, how can I not be confirmed in this.
Of course Ephesians is written to us as members of the church universal. (If you are truely a Christian which I want to assume).

So here in you we have a Christian brother (?) who argues for being in heaven forever for a immortal glorifed body YET . .
is somehow not too clear that God wants to live in us ? ? ?


We all could stand to take Christ as our humility.
There is very much about God living in the believers. I think we should humble ourselves and open up to these
biblical truths.

Christians must see that it is not desireable to be in heaven forever and Christ not be thier life within?
He is our life if we are reborn.

When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory. (Col. 3:4)

It is the Bible that says, "we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens". Not me.
I am agreeing with the scriptures, that's all.

The scriptures say the house not made with hands, will be eternal in the heavens.
That's what the scriptures say.

What they receive, will be eternal in the heavens.
We don;t want to be twisting the scriptures to fit what we believe. That certainly will not get us life. 2 Peter 3:16

I hope you agree. Be careful.

 

[CoreyD]

In John 14:20 Jesus said, At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

If Jesus is literally in us, then the disciples are literally in Jesus. How can that be?
Is it not better we understand that Jesus is talking about union.
I am in union with My Father, and you in union with Me, and I in union with you

The Greek word used is ἐν en which can mean in, on, at, by, or with.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon says:
b. of a person to whom another is wholly joined and to whose power and. influence he is subject, so that the former may be likened to the place in which the latter lives and moves. So used in the writings of Paul and of John particularly of intimate relationship with God or with Christ, and for the most part involving contextually the idea of power and blessing resulting from that union thus, εἶναι or μένειν ἐν τῷ πατρί or ἐν τῷ Θεῷ, of Christ, John 10:38; John 14:10f; of Christians, 1 John 3:24; 1 John 4:13, 15f; εἶναι or μένειν in Christ, of his disciples and worshippers, John 14:20; John 15:4f; μένειν ἐν τῷ υἱῷ καί ἐν τῷ πατρί, 1 John 2:24; ἐν Θεῷ, i. e. amplified and strengthened in the fellowship of God and the consciousness of that fellowship, ἐργάζεσθαι τί, John 3:21; παρρησιάζεσθαι, 1 Thessalonians 2:2. Of frequent use by Paul are the phrases ἐν Χριστῷ, ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, ἐν κυρίῳ (cf. Fritzsche, Commentary on Romans, vol. ii., p. 82ff; Winers Grammar, 389 (364); Weiss, Biblical Theol. des N. T. §§ 84 b., 149 c.), ingrafted as it were in Christ, in fellowship and union with Christ, with the Lord: Romans 3:24; Romans 6:11, 23; Romans 8:39; 1 Corinthians 1:4; 2 Corinthians 3:14; Galatians 2:4; Galatians 3:14, 26, 28; Galatians 5:6; Ephesians 1:3 (Rec. omits ἐν); Ephesians 2:6f, 10, 13; 1 Timothy 1:14; 2 Timothy 1:1, 13; 2 Timothy 2:1; 1 Peter 3:16; 1 Peter 5:10; στήκειν ἐν κυρίῳ, Philippians 4:1; ἵνα εὑρεθῶ ἐν αὐτῷ), that I may be found (by God and Christ) most intimately united to him, Philippians 3:9; εἶναι ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ 1 Corinthians 1:30; οἱ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, Romans 8:1; 1 Peter 5:14; κοιμᾶσθαι ἐν Χριστῷ, θνήσκειν ἐν κυρίῳ, to fall asleep, to die, mindful of relationship to Christ and confiding in it (Winer's Grammar, as above), 1 Corinthians 15:18; Revelation 14:13. Since such union with Christ is the basis on which actions and virtues rest, the expression is equivalent in meaning to by virtue of spiritual fellowship or union with Christ; in this sense it is joined to the following words and phrases: πέπεισμαι, Romans 14:14 (Winer's Grammar, as above and 390 note); πεποιθέναι, Galatians 5:10; Philippians 1:14; 2 Thessalonians 3:4; παρρησίαν ἔχειν, Philemon 1:8; ἐλπίζειν, Philippians 2:19; καύχησιν ἔχειν, Romans 15:17; 1 Corinthians 15:31; ἀνῆκεν, Colossians 3:18; τό αὐτό φρονεῖν, Philippians 4:2; ὑπακούειν, Ephesians 6:1 (L omits; Tr WH brackets ἐν κυρίῳ); φῶς, Ephesians 5:8; αὔξει, ; ζοωποιεῖσθαι, 1 Corinthians 15:22; ὁ κόπος οὐκ ἐστι κενός, 1 Corinthians 15:58; ἅγιος, Philippians 1:1; ἡγιασμένος, 1 Corinthians 1:2; λαλεῖν, 2 Corinthians 2:17; 2 Corinthians 12:19; ἀλήθειαν λέγειν, Romans 9:1; λέγειν καί μαρτύρεσθαι, Ephesians 4:17. Hence, it denotes the Christian aim, nature. quality of any action or virtue; thus, ἐυρεστον ἐν κυρίῳ, Colossians 3:20 G L T Tr WH; προσδέχεσθαι τινα, Romans 16:2; Philippians 2:29; ἀσπάζεσθαι τινα, Romans 16:8, 22; 1 Corinthians 16:19; κοπιαν, Romans 16:12 (Winers Grammar, 390 note; L brackets the clause); γαμηθῆναι, 1 Corinthians 7:39; χαίρειν, Philippians 3:1; Philippians 4:4, 10; παρακαλεῖν, 1 Thessalonians 4:1; προΐστασθαι τίνος, 1 Thessalonians 5:12; — or is equivalent to in things pertaining to Christ, in the cause of Christ: νήπιος, 1 Corinthians 3:1; φρόνιμος, 1 Corinthians 4:10; παιδαγωγοι, 1 Corinthians 4:15; ὁδοί μου, 1 Corinthians 4:17; θύρας μοι ἀνεῳγμένης ἐν κυρίῳ, in the kingdom of the Lord, 2 Corinthians 2:12. δικαιοῦσθαι ἐν Χριστῷ, by faith in Christ, Galatians 2:17. Finally, it serves as a periphrasis for Christian (whether person or thing): τούς ἐκ τῶν Ναρκίσσου τούς ὄντας ἐν κυρίῳ (opposed to those of the family of Narcissus who were not Christians), Romans 16:11; ἄνθρωπος ἐν Χριστῷ, a Christian, 2 Corinthians 12:2; αἱ ἐκκλησίαι αἱ ἐν Χριστῷ Galatians 1:22; 1 Thessalonians 2:14; οἱ νεκροί ἐν Χριστο those of the dead who are Christians, 1 Thessalonians 4:16; ἐκλεκτόν ἐν κυρίῳ, a Christian of mark, Romans 16:13; δόκιμος ἐν Χριστῷ an approved Christian, Romans 16:10; δέσμιος ἐν κυρίῳ, a Christian prisoner (tacitly opposed to prisoners of another sort (Winer's Grammar, 388 (363))), Ephesians 4:1; πιστός διάκονος ἐν κυρίῳ Ephesians 6:21; Colossians 4:7; διακονία, Colossians 4:17; ἐν Χριστῷ γενναν τινα, to be the author of one's Christian life or life devoted to Christ, 1 Corinthians 4:15; δεσμοί ἐν Χριστῷ, bonds occasioned by one's fellowship with Christ, Philippians 1:13 (others connect ἐν Χριστῷ here with φανερούς); it might be freely rendered as Christians, as a Christian, in 1 Corinthians 9:1; Philemon 1:16. ἐν πνεύματι (ἁγίῳ) εἶναι, to be in the power of, be actuated by, inspired by, the Holy Spirit: Romans 8:9 (here in opposed to ἐν σαρκί); γίνεσθαι, Revelation 1:10; Revelation 4:2; ἐν πνεύματι Θεοῦ λαλεῖν, 1 Corinthians 12:3; ἐν πνεύματι or ἐν πνεύματι τῷ ἁγίῳ or ἐν πνεύματι Θεοῦ, namely, ὤν (being) in i. e. under the power of the Spirit, moved by the Spirit (cf. Buttmann, 330 (283f); W 390 (364f)): Matthew 22:43; Mark 12:36; Luke 2:27; 1 Corinthians 12:3; Revelation 17:3; Revelation 21:10. ἄνθρωπος ἐν πνεύματι ἀκαθάρτῳ, namely, ὤν, in the power of an unclean spirit, possessed by one, Mark 1:23; ἐν τῷ πονηρῷ κεῖσθαι, to be held in the power of Satan, 1 John 5:19. οἱ ἐν νόμῳ, subject to the control of the law, Romans 3:19, ἐν τῷ Ἀδάμ ἀποθνῄσκειν, through connection with Adam, 1 Corinthians 15:22.

 

[CoreyD]

Corey, Am I misunderstanding you about the letter to the church in Ephesus ?

It doesn't appear you do.

Exactly what did you mean about that letter?

Thanks for asking.
The Church refers to the anointed of God, or the holy ones - the Saints - the body of Christ.
So, all the writings are to them. They are not address to us.

To explain:
The anointed are the little flock of other sheep.
The other sheep that Jesus would bring, are not the Church - the body of Christ - the Saints.
However, these sheep to benefit, as Matthew 25 shows.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [c]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left

40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

Christ brothers are the anointed of God, or the holy ones - the Saints - the body of Christ.
The sheep that Jesus bring in, are those that support his brethren, and they inherit everlasting life.
‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world Matthew 25:34

 

[oikonomia]

In John 14:20 Jesus said, At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

If Jesus is literally in us, then the disciples are literally in Jesus. How can that be?

It can literally be because the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
If you prefer to see it in the original - ὁ ἔσχατος Ἀδὰμ εἰς πνεῦμα ζῳοποιοῦν.

He literally could be our Redeemer because the Word became flesh (John 1:14).
If you prefer - Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ,
He then could literally be our indwelling Person because the last Adam became a life giving Spirit.

Christ went through these two BECAMES to shed His redeeming blood for our justification and change His form
to enter into us to be the indwelling Person - "Christ in you the hope of glory." ὅ ἐστιν Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·

Is it not better we understand that Jesus is talking about union.

When we speak of Jesus in us and we in Jesus we do mean union - absolutely.
We have to learn to live in union.
Abide in Me and I in you.

I am in union with My Father, and you in union with Me, and I in union with you

The Greek word used is ἐν en which can mean in, on, at, by, or with.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon says:
b. of a person to whom another is wholly joined and to whose power and. influence he is subject, so that the former may be likened to the place in which the latter lives and moves. So used in the writings of Paul and of John particularly of intimate relationship with God or with Christ, and for the most part involving contextually the idea of power and blessing resulting from that union thus, εἶναι or μένειν ἐν τῷ πατρί or ἐν τῷ Θεῷ, of Christ, John 10:38; John 14:10f; of Christians, 1 John 3:24; 1 John 4:13, 15f; εἶναι or μένειν in Christ, of his disciples and worshippers, John 14:20; John 15:4f; μένειν ἐν τῷ υἱῷ καί ἐν τῷ πατρί, 1 John 2:24; ἐν Θεῷ, i. e. amplified and strengthened in the fellowship of God and the consciousness of that fellowship, ἐργάζεσθαι τί, John 3:21; παρρησιάζεσθαι, 1 Thessalonians 2:2. Of frequent use by Paul are the phrases ἐν Χριστῷ, ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, ἐν κυρίῳ (cf. Fritzsche, Commentary on Romans, vol. ii., p. 82ff; Winers Grammar, 389 (364); Weiss, Biblical Theol. des N. T. §§ 84 b., 149 c.), ingrafted as it were in Christ, in fellowship and union with Christ, with the Lord: Romans 3:24; Romans 6:11, 23; Romans 8:39; 1 Corinthians 1:4; 2 Corinthians 3:14; Galatians 2:4; Galatians 3:14, 26, 28; Galatians 5:6; Ephesians 1:3 (Rec. omits ἐν); Ephesians 2:6f, 10, 13; 1 Timothy 1:14; 2 Timothy 1:1, 13; 2 Timothy 2:1; 1 Peter 3:16; 1 Peter 5:10; στήκειν ἐν κυρίῳ, Philippians 4:1; ἵνα εὑρεθῶ ἐν αὐτῷ), that I may be found (by God and Christ) most intimately united to him, Philippians 3:9; εἶναι ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ 1 Corinthians 1:30; οἱ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, Romans 8:1; 1 Peter 5:14; κοιμᾶσθαι ἐν Χριστῷ, θνήσκειν ἐν κυρίῳ, to fall asleep, to die, mindful of relationship to Christ and confiding in it (Winer's Grammar, as above), 1 Corinthians 15:18; Revelation 14:13. Since such union with Christ is the basis on which actions and virtues rest, the expression is equivalent in meaning to by virtue of spiritual fellowship or union with Christ; in this sense it is joined to the following words and phrases: πέπεισμαι, Romans 14:14 (Winer's Grammar, as above and 390 note); πεποιθέναι, Galatians 5:10; Philippians 1:14; 2 Thessalonians 3:4; παρρησίαν ἔχειν, Philemon 1:8; ἐλπίζειν, Philippians 2:19; καύχησιν ἔχειν, Romans 15:17; 1 Corinthians 15:31; ἀνῆκεν, Colossians 3:18; τό αὐτό φρονεῖν, Philippians 4:2; ὑπακούειν, Ephesians 6:1 (L omits; Tr WH brackets ἐν κυρίῳ); φῶς, Ephesians 5:8; αὔξει, ; ζοωποιεῖσθαι, 1 Corinthians 15:22; ὁ κόπος οὐκ ἐστι κενός, 1 Corinthians 15:58; ἅγιος, Philippians 1:1; ἡγιασμένος, 1 Corinthians 1:2; λαλεῖν, 2 Corinthians 2:17; 2 Corinthians 12:19; ἀλήθειαν λέγειν, Romans 9:1; λέγειν καί μαρτύρεσθαι, Ephesians 4:17. Hence, it denotes the Christian aim, nature. quality of any action or virtue; thus, ἐυρεστον ἐν κυρίῳ, Colossians 3:20 G L T Tr WH; προσδέχεσθαι τινα, Romans 16:2; Philippians 2:29; ἀσπάζεσθαι τινα, Romans 16:8, 22; 1 Corinthians 16:19; κοπιαν, Romans 16:12 (Winers Grammar, 390 note; L brackets the clause); γαμηθῆναι, 1 Corinthians 7:39; χαίρειν, Philippians 3:1; Philippians 4:4, 10; παρακαλεῖν, 1 Thessalonians 4:1; προΐστασθαι τίνος, 1 Thessalonians 5:12; — or is equivalent to in things pertaining to Christ, in the cause of Christ: νήπιος, 1 Corinthians 3:1; φρόνιμος, 1 Corinthians 4:10; παιδαγωγοι, 1 Corinthians 4:15; ὁδοί μου, 1 Corinthians 4:17; θύρας μοι ἀνεῳγμένης ἐν κυρίῳ, in the kingdom of the Lord, 2 Corinthians 2:12. δικαιοῦσθαι ἐν Χριστῷ, by faith in Christ, Galatians 2:17. Finally, it serves as a periphrasis for Christian (whether person or thing): τούς ἐκ τῶν Ναρκίσσου τούς ὄντας ἐν κυρίῳ (opposed to those of the family of Narcissus who were not Christians), Romans 16:11; ἄνθρωπος ἐν Χριστῷ, a Christian, 2 Corinthians 12:2; αἱ ἐκκλησίαι αἱ ἐν Χριστῷ Galatians 1:22; 1 Thessalonians 2:14; οἱ νεκροί ἐν Χριστο those of the dead who are Christians, 1 Thessalonians 4:16; ἐκλεκτόν ἐν κυρίῳ, a Christian of mark, Romans 16:13; δόκιμος ἐν Χριστῷ an approved Christian, Romans 16:10; δέσμιος ἐν κυρίῳ, a Christian prisoner (tacitly opposed to prisoners of another sort (Winer's Grammar, 388 (363))), Ephesians 4:1; πιστός διάκονος ἐν κυρίῳ Ephesians 6:21; Colossians 4:7; διακονία, Colossians 4:17; ἐν Χριστῷ γενναν τινα, to be the author of one's Christian life or life devoted to Christ, 1 Corinthians 4:15; δεσμοί ἐν Χριστῷ, bonds occasioned by one's fellowship with Christ, Philippians 1:13 (others connect ἐν Χριστῷ here with φανερούς); it might be freely rendered as Christians, as a Christian, in 1 Corinthians 9:1; Philemon 1:16. ἐν πνεύματι (ἁγίῳ) εἶναι, to be in the power of, be actuated by, inspired by, the Holy Spirit: Romans 8:9 (here in opposed to ἐν σαρκί); γίνεσθαι, Revelation 1:10; Revelation 4:2; ἐν πνεύματι Θεοῦ λαλεῖν, 1 Corinthians 12:3; ἐν πνεύματι or ἐν πνεύματι τῷ ἁγίῳ or ἐν πνεύματι Θεοῦ, namely, ὤν (being) in i. e. under the power of the Spirit, moved by the Spirit (cf. Buttmann, 330 (283f); W 390 (364f)): Matthew 22:43; Mark 12:36; Luke 2:27; 1 Corinthians 12:3; Revelation 17:3; Revelation 21:10. ἄνθρωπος ἐν πνεύματι ἀκαθάρτῳ, namely, ὤν, in the power of an unclean spirit, possessed by one, Mark 1:23; ἐν τῷ πονηρῷ κεῖσθαι, to be held in the power of Satan, 1 John 5:19. οἱ ἐν νόμῳ, subject to the control of the law, Romans 3:19, ἐν τῷ Ἀδάμ ἀποθνῄσκειν, through connection with Adam, 1 Corinthians 15:22.

You were saying something about "quite a lot of commentary?"

Do you see what you are doing? You are fighting much for believers going to be IN heaven and fighting against believers being IN Christ
and Christ IN them.

 

[oikonomia]

No. I was not born again.

Well, I have been born again. Or if you prefer "born from above" which is to be born . . . again.
Either way, my first phsycial birth did not make me a Christian.
Neither did yours according to the Scripture. So I HAD to be "born again."

And if the original would be of more help -
ὅσοι δὲ ἔλαβον αὐτόν, ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς ἐξουσίαν τέκνα θεοῦ γενέσθαι, τοῖς πιστεύουσιν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ, οἳ οὐκ ἐξ αἱμάτων οὐδὲ ἐκ θελήματος σαρκὸς οὐδὲ ἐκ θελήματος ἀνδρὸς ἀλλ' ἐκ θεοῦ ἐγεννήθησαν.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name,
Who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.(John 1:12,13)

So we cannot be born of God by a blood relationship with believing parents.
And we could not be born of God by the will power of the fallen man - the flesh.
And we could not be born of God by the will even of the original created man.

So by an act of God the Father after we were physically born, can we be "born again."
Why a Christian would to boast that he has not be born again, is a mystery to me.

I know that immediately after my physical birth from my mother I had no longing for the milk of the word of God.
But after I was "born anew" or if you prefer "born from above" I longed as a "newborn babe" for the pure milk of the word.

ὡς ἀρτιγέννητα βρέφη τὸ λογικὸν ἄδολον γάλα ἐπιποθήσατε, ἵνα ἐν αὐτῷ αὐξηθῆτε εἰς σωτηρίαν,

As newborn babes, long for the guileless milk of the word in order that by it you may grow unto salvation, (1 Pet. 2:2)

So as a newborn babe or as begotten from my heavenly Father after I was physically born, of course I was "born AGAIN."

What evidence do you have that you are born again?

I can say "Jesus is Lord." . . . καὶ οὐδεὶς δύναται εἰπεῖν, Κύριος Ἰησοῦς, εἰ μὴ ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ.

and no one can say, Jesus is Lord! except in the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:3)

 

[Dan Perez]

Well, I have been born again. Or if you prefer "born from above" which is to be born . . . again.
Either way, my first phsycial birth did not make me a Christian.
Neither did yours according to the Scripture. So I HAD to be "born again."

And if the original would be of more help -
ὅσοι δὲ ἔλαβον αὐτόν, ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς ἐξουσίαν τέκνα θεοῦ γενέσθαι, τοῖς πιστεύουσιν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ, οἳ οὐκ ἐξ αἱμάτων οὐδὲ ἐκ θελήματος σαρκὸς οὐδὲ ἐκ θελήματος ἀνδρὸς ἀλλ' ἐκ θεοῦ ἐγεννήθησαν.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name,
Who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.(John 1:12,13)

So we cannot be born of God by a blood relationship with believing parents.
And we could not be born of God by the will power of the fallen man - the flesh.
And we could not be born of God by the will even of the original created man.

So by an act of God the Father after we were physically born, can we be "born again."
Why a Christian would to boast that he has not be born again, is a mystery to me.

I know that immediately after my physical birth from my mother I had no longing for the milk of the word of God.
But after I was "born anew" or if you prefer "born from above" I longed as a "newborn babe" for the pure milk of the word.

ὡς ἀρτιγέννητα βρέφη τὸ λογικὸν ἄδολον γάλα ἐπιποθήσατε, ἵνα ἐν αὐτῷ αὐξηθῆτε εἰς σωτηρίαν,

As newborn babes, long for the guileless milk of the word in order that by it you may grow unto salvation, (1 Pet. 2:2)

So as a newborn babe or as begotten from my heavenly Father after I was physically born, of course I was "born AGAIN."


I can say "Jesus is Lord." . . . καὶ οὐδεὶς δύναται εἰπεῖν, Κύριος Ἰησοῦς, εἰ μὴ ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ.

and no one can say, Jesus is Lord! except in the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:3)

The BODY OF CHRIST is not BORN AGAIN , as we are a new CREATURES as Paul wrote in 2 Cor 5:17 .

And we are Christs , EARS , EYES , SENSE OF SMELL , SENSE OF HEARING , HIS FEET , HIS HAND and 1 Cor 14- 27

Israel will be BORN AGAIN when Christ comes back and save Israel in Rom 11:26 .

dan p

 

[oikonomia]

The BODY OF CHRIST is not BORN AGAIN , as we are a new CREATURES as Paul wrote in 2 Cor 5:17 .

Who am I speaking with here now? Dan Perez?

The Body of Christ is His Body because His life is in the Body.
The Body is made up many members. And all the members individually must be regenerated.

For also in one Spirit we were all baptized into one Body,
whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all given to drink one Spirit.
For the body is not one member but many. (1 Cor. 12:13,14)

All the members are immersed into one Spirit.
All the members also DRINK into them that Spirit into which they have been immersed.
Into the Third Person of the Trinity we are baptized and all given to drink one Spirit.

So each member is put into the Spirit and the Spirit is put into each member.

 

[oikonomia]

I would add that in too many places the body is not healthy.
In division the body is paralyzed and doesn't function well.

So to have the standing of the Body may not be with much manifestation of this Body of Christ.
But no one who has not been reborn with the Spirit is a member of His Body.

 

[oikonomia]

Israel will be BORN AGAIN when Christ comes back and save Israel in Rom 11:26 .

dan p

In the meantime . . . how much we need this Body to be manfested in the practical church life.

 

[oikonomia]

It doesn't appear you do.


Thanks for asking.
The Church refers to the anointed of God, or the holy ones - the Saints - the body of Christ.
So, all the writings are to them. They are not address to us.

It escapes me how in the world one can claim to be a new covenant believer and think
the epistles of the NT were not intended for that believer.

Maybe I am missing something in what you claim to be.
Take for example First Corinthians. To whom is that letter addressed?

Paul, a called apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Sosthenes the brother,

To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, the called saints, with all those who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, who is theirs and ours:

It is addressed to:
1.) the church in Corinth
2.) to those sanctified in Christ Jesus
3.) to those who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus in every place.

I don't know about you. But I live in an American city - Pittsburgh. But I am a saint.
I am sanctified in Christ Jesus. And I call on the same Lord Jesus.
He is "both theirs and ours."

Now if you don't have such assurance, someone/s have not been taking very good care of you
as a Christian brother.

To explain:
The anointed are the little flock of other sheep.
The other sheep that Jesus would bring, are not the Church - the body of Christ - the Saints.
However, these sheep to benefit, as Matthew 25 shows.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [c]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left

40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

Christ brothers are the anointed of God, or the holy ones - the Saints - the body of Christ.
The sheep that Jesus bring in, are those that support his brethren, and they inherit everlasting life.
‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world Matthew 25:34

The time I would devote to this I do not have right now.
But briefly all created humans in one sense are "the sheep of His pasture" in the sense that He is their Creator.
It is He who has made us and not we ourselves.

Make a joyful noise to Jehovah, all the earth.
Serve Jehovah with rejoicing; / Come before His presence with joyful singing.

Know that it is Jehovah who is God; / It is He who has made us and not we ourselves.
/ We are His people and the sheep of His pasture. (Psalm 100:1-3)

So, and this has to be brief, entering into the millennium kingdom of 1,000 years, yes, there are sheep nations who
are not sons of God. They are the sheep who the sons of God reign over and the priests of God serve.

They being created by Jehovah are not Israel, are not the church. But they are in this sense MADE by Jehovah
and are "His people and the sheep of His pasture."

They are not a part of the New Jerusalem. And they are not a part of the church.
As those permitted to be transferred from this present age into the next millenniual kingdom age,
these are His sheep in that sense.

 

[oikonomia]

I do like when the scriptures speak. Don't you? They make much more sense than our long commentaries. Don't you agree?

I love when Scripture speaks and the eyes of our hearts are enlightened.

John 14 is not about Jesus receiving sinners in prepared mansions in heaven which He has been working on for two millennia.
I'll never go back to that very naturalistic, "with a traditional flavor" viewpoint which I think is superficial.

When I first heard this chapter better explained, admitedly it was a little difficult for me to instantly receive it.
I was too used to traditional explanations. God had mercy on me. I can never go back.

Now, the house (temple) of the Father, according to this very book, is the body of Jesus.

Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Then the Jews said, This temple was built in forty-six years, and You will raise it up in three days?

But He spoke of the temple of His body.
When therefore He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this,
and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken. (John 2:19-22)

For Jesus to say He receices us to Himself so that where He is we may be also means
He receives us into the mystical body of Christ.

The church (which is His body (Eph. 1:23)) is also the house of the living God.

But if I delay, I write that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth. (1 Tim. 3:16)

The house of God is the church of the living God.

Now my longer posts weary some. So this post will be short.
But Jesus had to go to the CROSS to accomplish eternal redemption to prepare a place for us - IN HIS MYSTICAL BODY- the house of God - the church of the living God.

ONLY through His going to Calvary to DIE could He have PREPARED a place for us.
ONLY through His going to Calvary to accomplish eternal remption could He receive us to Himself.
ONLY by His utter obedience to the will His Father could we be qualified to come to the Father.
ONLY through His death and resurrection could there be not ONE abode but MANY ABODES in the Father's house.

If it were the case that only Jesus could be one in whom the Father lived, leaving all of the rest of humanity OUT, He would have TOLD US.

Do not let your heart be troubled; believe into God, believe also into Me.
In My Father’s house are many abodes; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. (John 14:1,2)

And I will stop here.
I didn't say there is no such thing as heaven.
I didn't say believers cannot be raptured to heaven.
You can still have heaven. But this chapter it is not about going to heaven.
It is coming to the source of eternal divine life - the Father.
No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Thomas said to Him, Lord, we do not know where You are going; how can we know the way?
Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.

If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and henceforth you know Him and have seen Him. (vs. 5-7)

 

[CoreyD]

@oikonomia it was nice talking with you.
I hope I did answer your question.
Enjoy.

 

[com7fy8]

Has anyone mentioned where the scriptures say souls of martyrs are seen under the altar . . . of Heaven?

Revelation 20:4

Ones can say this supports that there are saints who die and go to Heaven.

But if the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven . . . Revelation 3:12 . . . then I can see that whoever does go to Heaven and becomes part of New Jerusalem will not stay in Heaven, but will come down to be on the new earth.

And our Apostle Paul says,

"We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." (2 Corinthians 5:8)

If I am present with Jesus . . . where is Jesus?

And, of course, isn't Jesus part of Heaven? So, if Jesus lives in me, Heaven is in me now. And the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Heaven and Heaven's love. And Romans 5:5 says >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

So, if Heaven's own love is "in our hearts" . . . Heaven is in us.

So, may be we could say we don't go to Heaven but we grow here.

 

[oikonomia]

@oikonomia it was nice talking with you.
I hope I did answer your question.
Enjoy.

Thankyou for the discussion.
You gave a reason for the hope that is within you.
That you did. I believe I also did.

Suggested reading "The Glorious Church" by Watchman Nee

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books/reader.php?id=Nlu3taT07qFU

 

[oikonomia]

Has anyone mentioned where the scriptures say souls of martyrs are seen under the altar . . . of Heaven?

This the vision of the Fifth Seal in Revelation 6:9-11.

The cry of the martyred souls are Christian martyrs from the first century to the time
near the end of the age. It could also include martyrs of OT times as mentioned in Matt. 23:34-36.
Where is "underneath the altar?" is the question.

I believe it is underneath the earth. In figure the "altar" here is in the outer court of the tabernacle and temple.
I believe the outer court of the tabernacle / temple signifies the earth. The souls of martyred saints are underneath
the earth in Paradise where the Lord Jesus went after His death (Luke 23:43). He and the believing thief went on
that day to Paradise which must correspond to "the heart of the earth." (Matt. 12:40) It should be the comfortable
section of Hades (Acts 2:27). It is where Abraham is and is comfortable (Luke 16:22-26).

In Revelation 11:1,2 it says - And there was given to me a reed like a rod, and someone said, Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship in it. And the court which is outside the temple cast out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

The "altar" here refers not to the altar of brass for the slaying of animals in the outer court. But it means the golden incense altar, because it is with the temple. The outer court is given to be trampled underfoot by the Gentile opposers to God. And that includes the physical city of Jerusalem. [T]he court which is outside the temple cast out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

This means that the brass altar and Jerusalem are on earth in the symbolism. On earth and in Jerusalem enemies of God can kill
faithful saints. For " because it has been given to the Gentiles, and they will trample the holy city . . . "
The altar underneath which John say petitioning martyred saints like Jerusalem symbolically all part of the court which is outside the temple.

Worshippers in the temple are protected. Now by the time of the events of Revelation 11 some raptured ones
are in heaven protected, worshipping, beyond the reach of Antichirst. Some are. Some are still on earth under
great persecution.

The court which is outside the temple (including the city of Jerusalem and the brass altar) must
signify the earth and underneath the earth. So I do not believe the vision of the Fifth Seal is a vision of departed souls in heaven. Rather
they are martyred souls underneath the earth. On earth they sacrificed thier lives. The earth was the place of their sacrifice of such consecration.

Revelation 20:4

Ones can say this supports that there are saints who die and go to Heaven.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and of those who had not worshipped the beast nor his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Where do these resurrected ones reign? They reign on the earth according to Revelation 5:9,10.

. . . for You were slain and have purchased for God by Your blood men out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
And have made them a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign on the earth.

But if the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven . . . Revelation 3:12 . . . then I can see that whoever does go to Heaven and becomes part of New Jerusalem will not stay in Heaven, but will come down to be on the new earth.

And our Apostle Paul says,

"We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." (2 Corinthians 5:8)

If I am present with Jesus . . . where is Jesus?

And, of course, isn't Jesus part of Heaven? So, if Jesus lives in me, Heaven is in me now. And the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Heaven and Heaven's love. And Romans 5:5 says >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

So, if Heaven's own love is "in our hearts" . . . Heaven is in us.

So, may be we could say we don't go to Heaven but we grow here.

I like this reasoning because Christ in us, growing in us, being formed in us, and eventually swallowing us up in divine life
is so paramount in the New Testament.

God's eternal purpose is expressed also as Him building for Himself a dwelling place of God in spirit.

Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone;
In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;
In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit. (Eph. 2:20b.-22)