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Israel-Hamas Thread II
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JosephZ
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The Palestine Liberation Organization is the officially recognized government of State of Palestine which includes Gaza.Hamas is/was the government. They were the state.
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JosephZ
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The Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) was established in 1964 and has been the embodiment of the Palestinian national movement. It is a broad national front, or an umbrella organization, comprised of numerous organizations of the resistance movement, political parties, popular organizations, and independent personalities and figures from all sectors of life. The Arab Summit in 1974 recognized the PLO as the “sole and legitimate representative of the Palestinian people” and since then the PLO has represented Palestine at the United Nations, the Movement of Non-Aligned Countries (NAM), the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), and in many other fora.
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1974. Anyway, that's irrelevant. The PLO only has the West Bank since the Gazans elected Hamas and Hamas murdered the PLO members inside Gaza. The Oct. 7 baby killers were working for the government. Or I guess two governments, if you count Iran.The Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) was established in 1964 and has been the embodiment of the Palestinian national movement. It is a broad national front, or an umbrella organization, comprised of numerous organizations of the resistance movement, political parties, popular organizations, and independent personalities and figures from all sectors of life. The Arab Summit in 1974 recognized the PLO as the “sole and legitimate representative of the Palestinian people” and since then the PLO has represented Palestine at the United Nations, the Movement of Non-Aligned Countries (NAM), the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), and in many other fora.
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To call Hamas a government is a stretch....but yea, they are the bad guys with guns who are in charge. I'll go with a military junta...
In weeks of interviews, Hamas leaders, along with Arab, Israeli and Western officials who track the group, said the attack had been planned and executed by a tight circle of commanders in Gaza who did not share the details with their own political representatives abroad or with their regional allies like Hezbollah, leaving people outside the enclave surprised by the ferocity, scale and reach of the assault.
The attack ended up being broader and more deadly than even its planners had anticipated, they said, largely because the assailants managed to break through Israel’s vaunted defenses with ease, allowing them to overrun military bases and residential areas with little resistance. As Hamas stormed through a swath of southern Israel, it killed and captured more soldiers and civilians than it expected to, officials said.
The assault was so devastating that it served one of the plotters’ main objectives: It broke a longstanding tension within Hamas about the group’s identity and purpose. Was it mainly a governing body — responsible for managing day-to-day life in the blockaded Gaza Strip — or was it still fundamentally an armed force, unrelentingly committed to destroying Israel and replacing it with an Islamist Palestinian state?
With the attack, the group’s leaders in Gaza — including Yahya Sinwar, who had spent more than 20 years in Israeli prisons, and Mohammed Deif, a shadowy military commander whom Israel had repeatedly tried to assassinate — answered that question. They doubled down on military confrontation.
www.nytimes.com
In weeks of interviews, Hamas leaders, along with Arab, Israeli and Western officials who track the group, said the attack had been planned and executed by a tight circle of commanders in Gaza who did not share the details with their own political representatives abroad or with their regional allies like Hezbollah, leaving people outside the enclave surprised by the ferocity, scale and reach of the assault.
The attack ended up being broader and more deadly than even its planners had anticipated, they said, largely because the assailants managed to break through Israel’s vaunted defenses with ease, allowing them to overrun military bases and residential areas with little resistance. As Hamas stormed through a swath of southern Israel, it killed and captured more soldiers and civilians than it expected to, officials said.
The assault was so devastating that it served one of the plotters’ main objectives: It broke a longstanding tension within Hamas about the group’s identity and purpose. Was it mainly a governing body — responsible for managing day-to-day life in the blockaded Gaza Strip — or was it still fundamentally an armed force, unrelentingly committed to destroying Israel and replacing it with an Islamist Palestinian state?
With the attack, the group’s leaders in Gaza — including Yahya Sinwar, who had spent more than 20 years in Israeli prisons, and Mohammed Deif, a shadowy military commander whom Israel had repeatedly tried to assassinate — answered that question. They doubled down on military confrontation.
Behind Hamas’s Bloody Gambit to Create a ‘Permanent’ State of War (Published 2023)
Hamas leaders say they waged their Oct. 7 attack on Israel because they believed the Palestinian cause was slipping away, and that only violence could revive it.
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JosephZ
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Like I said, Hamas is a terror group. Hamas expelled the Palestinian Authority and Fatah in a violent takeover in 2007 and isn't the recognized government of the state of Palestine.
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No totally different.
Germany and Japan were large militaristic countries with powerful armies, navies and air forces who invaded, took over and subjugated many countries. Hamas isn't capable of invading and taking over Israel: the US supported IDF is much more powerful than Hamas. This whole situation started in 1948 if not earlier.
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Reasonably Sane
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Yeah. Hamas and Gaza are not as big so they don't need to use as much ordinance and troops. But Hamas and Gaza are the same thing as the others. Just smaller. Their target is Israel. And the key point is that Hamas is to Gaza what the Nazis were to Germany.
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Being terrorists and being the government are not mutually exclusive. Before they had power, the Nazis used violence to get power. And after Hamas got power, they did the exact same thing Hitler did after the Nazis got power. Hitler had his Purge - he killed his political opponents and potential rivals. And what difference would it have made if no one had "officially" recognized Hitler's government?
I'm honestly not sure what point you're trying to make.
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Reasonably Sane
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I think the problem is that there is a LOT of deflection and gaslighting going on here. A country is brutally attacked with the attackers TARGETING civilians, and then observers want them to "not be too harsh" in their response. What makes it doubly weird is that this has been ongoing since Israel became a nation in 1948. How many times is Israel going to turn the other cheek? Personally, I think that ship has FINALLY sailed. And I don't blame them one bit.
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JosephZ
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The Nazis were state actors operating at the direction of the state. Hamas is a terror group that forced its rule on the people of Gaza outside of the political process. Hamas operates independently of the recognized government of the Palestinian territories and is a non-state actor. The reason the distinction between the two is important is because many people believe that military force is the answer to defeating Hamas and are supporting Israel's current response to the October 7th terror attack based on that assumption. What works when fighting standing armies doesn't work when fighting terrorist groups.
Military force works on state actors because once the state accepts defeat, the attacks committed by the state end. With terror groups, military force has the opposite effect. When a military response to a terror group is too overwhelming, like we are seeing now in Gaza, it only benefits the terror group. They will gain legitimacy among the people affected by the military campaign, which often leads to more support and more recruits to carry out future attacks.
The only way to defeat Hamas is to recognize this difference and for Israel and the international community to respond to them in the appropriate way. I gave an example of the proper response to Hamas in this post.
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The distinction is unimportant because military force is the answer regardless of how you want to label Hamas. And from reports I've heard, Israel's standing army is doing a pretty good job of fighting this terrorist group so far.
This almost comes across as racist. Are you saying that Gazans can't discriminate between good and evil? Or they're too stupid to know why their government is being destroyed? If a Gazan has his house destroyed, or had a loved one killed, you think he's not rational enough to know why Israel had to do it?
In the long run, hopefully, Gaza is being liberated, and hopefully, it may have better days ahead of it.
I recall that post. I only agree with the first sentence. I'm not going to pick apart the rest.
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Nope anti-Semetism is demonstrated by the examples I gave. It's not just saying "I hate Jews". The actions and words are indicative of anti-Semetism. When you just work to make the Jews sound bad that's anti-Semetism. When you work to call for something that only helps terrorists regroup and rearm.You are using the term incorrectly.
Calling for a cease fire is not Anti-semetic.
Calling for a pause is not Anti-semetic.
Holding Israel to higher standard than a terrorist organization is not Anti-semetic.
Citing Hamas claims is not Anti-semetic.
Anti-Semetism is:
"Anti-Semitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of anti-Semitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities." --Working Definition of Anti-Semitism by the European Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia
Contemporary Examples of Anti-Semitism
- Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews (often in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion).
- Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as a collective—especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
- Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, the state of Israel, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
- Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
- Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interest of their own nations.
Defining Anti-Semitism
2009-2017.state.gov
When you give aid and comfort to terrorists with your words by blaming Jews for things the terrorists have done and are responsible for.
Yeah. That's anti-Semetic.
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essentialsaltes
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As the war rages between Hamas and Israel in Gaza, some Palestinians in the West Bank are trying to save their homes. Some of the most extreme Israeli settlers there have been clashing violently with their neighbors, forcing them to flee. Leila Molana-Allen reports from near the city of Hebron in the southern part of the West Bank.
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JosephZ
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The IDF's current approach is self-defeating. High numbers of civilian casualties and severe damage is precisely what Hamas wants.
I wasn't talking specifically about Gazans in that paragraph, but considering that so many Palestinians have witnessed the deaths of their loved ones as a result of the IDF's excessive bombing campaign, there's little doubt this is going to radicalize a great number of Palestinians and many who sympathize with them.
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Baloney they didn't take over. They were duly elected in 2006. Whatever they did after that is on the Gaza people for electing them in the first place.
It's like saying the Germans had no responsibility for what Hitler did after he was elected.
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Israel-Hamas fighting heats up in Gaza City, accelerating the exodus of Palestinians to the south
This doesn't sound like Israel is trying to kill all the civilians.
This doesn't sound like Israel is trying to kill all the civilians.
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