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Israel-Hamas Thread II

durangodawood

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.....And I've heard no call to hold Hamas to account or hold Hamas to a standard and instead all excuses as to how we can't. Meanwhile calling for Israel to be held to an impossible standard.
The assumptions behind that is:
1. Israel is basically decent enough to care about innocent people in the crossfire.
2. hamas is so barbaric as to attack innocent people in the first place.

I'm a little concerned for the status of Israel if 1 proves to be false in some outrageous way. Thats could even be the sort of "victory" hamas was trying to provoke.
 
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Reasonably Sane

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My dad went to War College years ago in Alabama with a Jordanian air force officer that had a bag of dirt around his neck because his family was forced to flee his family's home in 1947.

"A land without people for a people without a land" was what the British establishment told themselves to make Zionism seem to be a righteous cause, but it was a fiction. Even many early Zionists like Israel Zangwill knew it was untrue.
Sure, there were people there, just as there were people in the American west. But not many (roughly 2,000 families total). And they were compensated. i.e. the Jews bought the land. And there was no actual country other than the ottoman empire, until it became Jordan after WWII, and Israel after 1948. Interestingly, the area that Israel focused on (the mostly flat land between the ocean and the hills) was so sparsely populated because of Islam and the Crusades. The Muslims preferred the hill country to keep the area between the hills and the Mediterranean as a buffer/protection from future invading Christians.

And the Jews made the land flourish.

Fortunately for native Americans, who live in peace with the US, are not lobbing missiles at the rest of us. Gazan's could learn something from that.
 
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rjs330

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The poll indicates more people view Israel as an ally than before the conflict. I'm not sure why you think that's an issue.

As for the media, cite one example of an article that is "anti-Semetic" in your view.
This thread is full of them. Every single article that talks about how Israel is killing civilians casualties which no mention at all about what Israel is doing to try and mitigate that and no mention or blame of Hamas for the death of civilians because of hey purposely put them in harms way. No blame at all for Hamas not using their resources to take care of their people and instead blaming g Israel. It's in every article and nearly every news program. The calling for cease fire from the media etc. You have to be blind not to see it.

The claims that Israel blew up a hospital, the claims they were blowing up ambulances who were just trying to move injured children or civilians.

It's everywhere.
 
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FireDragon76

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Sure, there were people there, just as there were people in the American west. But not many (roughly 2,000 families total). And they were compensated. i.e. the Jews bought the land. And there was no actual country other than the ottoman empire, until it became Jordan after WWII, and Israel after 1948. Interestingly, the area that Israel focused on (the mostly flat land between the ocean and the hills) was so sparsely populated because of Islam and the Crusades. The Muslims preferred the hill country to keep the area between the hills and the Mediterranean as a buffer/protection from future invading Christians.

And the Jews made the land flourish.

Fortunately for native Americans, who live in peace with the US, are not lobbing missiles at the rest of us. Gazan's could learn something from that.

Palestine and the Levant were not sparsely inhabited. It may not have been like London or Manhattan, but people had been living there for thousands of years.

And not all the families were compensated. The Haganah waged a campaign of intimidation and ethnic cleansing in villages that had strategic military value. And now decades later, no compensation is offered to those families.
 
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Vanellus

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Not surprising, considering that the misfired rocket that hit that hospital was fired from a cemetery.
Hmm not exactly logical and assumes that that intelligence was correct. And we don't know if the cemetery was deliberately targeted in the same way this IDF tale of targeting of Hamas is a myth. The IDF plan is clearly to blow up as much of Gaza and kill as many as Gazans as they can until the US restrains them by threatening to remove their flow of arms and support.

‘Emphasis is on damage, not accuracy’: ground offensive into Gaza seems imminent

"IDF spokesperson R Adm Daniel Hagari made the startling admission that “hundreds of tons of bombs” had already been dropped on the tiny strip, adding that “the emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy
 
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rjs330

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Major Spielman from the IDF said it was going to take a great deal of time to get rid of Hamas. He told of an event where they were fighting Hamas who ran into a building that was filled with civilians. And they didn't kill the civilians but went I to the building and discovered a shaft dropping 30-40 feet into tunnels. Israel didn't willy nilly kill the civilians. Israel has the full capability to just destroy Gaza and the Gazans. But they aren't. They are trying not to including trying to open routes for civilians that Hamas closed off. And who is trying to prevent them from doing that?

So don't give me this garbage about Israel.
 
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rjs330

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Hmm not exactly logical and assumes that that intelligence was correct. And we don't know if the cemetery was deliberately targeted in the same way this IDF tale of targeting of Hamas is a myth. The IDF plan is clearly to blow up as much of Gaza and kill as many as Gazans as they can until the US restrains them by threatening to remove their flow of arms and support.
Sure that's the goal. That's why they sent leaflets, made phone calls and and sent SMS messages. That's why they are trying to open an escape route for the citizens to escape south.
If Israel really wants to just kill Gazans they could pretty much wipe them all out of they wanted to. But you are totally blind to the facts. Spewing the anti-Semetic propaganda. Not saying you are personally anti-Semetic but you are sure spreading the propaganda.
 
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durangodawood

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Major Spielman from the IDF said it was going to take a great deal of time to get rid of Hamas. He told of an event where they were fighting Hamas who ran into a building that was filled with civilians. And they didn't kill the civilians but went I to the building and discovered a shaft dropping 30-40 feet into tunnels. Israel didn't willy nilly kill the civilians. Israel has the full capability to just destroy Gaza and the Gazans. But they aren't. They are trying not to including trying to open routes for civilians that Hamas closed off. And who is trying to prevent them from doing that?

So don't give me this garbage about Israel.
One thing thats bad about war is you cant trust anyone from any side. I trust Israel a lot more than I trust hamas, but not enough that I can count on any given non-independently-verified statement being true in a time like this.
 
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Reasonably Sane

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Palestine and the Levant were not sparsely inhabited. It may not have been like London or Manhattan, but people had been living there for thousands of years.

And not all the families were compensated. The Haganah waged a campaign of intimidation and ethnic cleansing in villages that had strategic military value. And now decades later, no compensation is offered to those families.
Yes, thousands of years, with almost no population growth. Interestingly, when Israel got involved, hundreds of thousands of Arabs moved in and started calling themselves "Palestinians".

But to be honest, it parallels the American native story quite a bit, except they were not really compensated since, like those peopling that part of the Ottoman empire, they lived in "tents". A hundred years ago this would have been easy. One country finally attacks the other, wins, and to the victor goes the spoils of war. In fact, this was attempted by the local Arabs in the 1948-49 war but they lost. And the lost at a time when that form of acquiring real estate was finally, in the history of man, going out of favor.

Think of it as a thousands of years game of musical chairs. The music stopped in WWII and, generally speaking, it never started again. Now you have to be really powerful to push someone off their chair. Sure, the Muslims tried to push the Jews off the chair many times, but they always failed. And this last time they brought a knife, So Israel brought a gun. I'm no prophet, but I've read enough about the middle east to know this will not end well for the Muslims there. It may or may not end well for Israel either, but that remains to be seen. I'm hoping they finally civilize the area once and for all. The growing civil war in Iran may help.
 
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essentialsaltes

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wing2000

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This thread is full of them. Every single article that talks about how Israel is killing civilians casualties which no mention at all about what Israel is doing to try and mitigate that and no mention or blame of Hamas for the death of civilians because of hey purposely put them in harms way. No blame at all for Hamas not using their resources to take care of their people and instead blaming g Israel. It's in every article and nearly every news program. The calling for cease fire from the media etc. You have to be blind not to see it.

The claims that Israel blew up a hospital, the claims they were blowing up ambulances who were just trying to move injured children or civilians.

It's everywhere.

You are using the term incorrectly.

Calling for a cease fire is not Anti-semetic.
Calling for a pause is not Anti-semetic.
Holding Israel to higher standard than a terrorist organization is not Anti-semetic.
Citing Hamas claims is not Anti-semetic.

Anti-Semetism is:


"Anti-Semitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of anti-Semitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities." --Working Definition of Anti-Semitism by the European Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia

Contemporary Examples of Anti-Semitism

  • Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews (often in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion).
  • Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as a collective—especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
  • Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, the state of Israel, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
  • Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
  • Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interest of their own nations.
 
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Landon Caeli

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The IDF plan is clearly to blow up as much of Gaza and kill as many as Gazans as they can

Nothing I can do, except eat some meatballs and take a nap in my comfy bed.

200w.gif
 
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Reasonably Sane

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But other residents of then-Palestine fled their homes.
What was the name of the country at the time? I can tell you with confidence it wasn't Palestine. That was a name, kinda like "Death Valley", or Sea of Tranquility on the moon. Of what country were they citizens?

I can't really speak to the people fleeing their homes. I'd like to know what was actually happening that caused them to do that rather than speculate. I know it wasn't the KKK scaring them off.
 
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Reasonably Sane

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The IDF plan is clearly to blow up as much of Gaza and kill as many as Gazans as they can until the US restrains them by threatening to remove their flow of arms and support.

‘Emphasis is on damage, not accuracy’: ground offensive into Gaza seems imminent

"IDF spokesperson R Adm Daniel Hagari made the startling admission that “hundreds of tons of bombs” had already been dropped on the tiny strip, adding that “the emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy
Wow. Kinda like Berlin, Tokyo and Dresden. War is a thing to be avoided. Start one at your peril. And Hamas is to Gaza what Nazi's were to Germany.
 
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JosephZ

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What was the name of the country at the time? I can tell you with confidence it wasn't Palestine. That was a name, kinda like "Death Valley", or Sea of Tranquility on the moon. Of what country were they citizens?
palestine 332.jpg
 
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essentialsaltes

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I'd like to know what was actually happening that caused them to do that rather than speculate. I know it wasn't the KKK scaring them off.
No, the proto-Israeli Army.

Israeli operations uprooted Palestinians in 1948. Many fear a repeat.

Jewish mortars and loudspeaker trucks shook Arab neighborhoods in early 1948 as sectarian fighting consumed the newly partitioned land that would soon become Israel. Amid the prolonged shelling, the trucks would broadcast the threatening sounds of wailing sirens, fake screams and evacuation warnings.

Returning home would prove impossible for an estimated 750,000 Palestinians and their millions of descendants. When Israeli archives opened in the 1980s, records showed how Israeli operations, including psychological-warfare broadcasts, helped drive the exodus.
 
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Reasonably Sane

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The assumptions behind that is:
1. Israel is basically decent enough to care about innocent people in the crossfire.
2. hamas is so barbaric as to attack innocent people in the first place.

I'm a little concerned for the status of Israel if 1 proves to be false in some outrageous way. Thats could even be the sort of "victory" hamas was trying to provoke.
Both are demonstrably true.
I've seen the videos of what hamas was doing. And there are many examles of Israel pulling back in their ground operations when Hamas folks try to flea into populated buildings and areas. Then there is the IDF spreading leaflets before bombing an area. The real question is, how much do they care. Do they care more than the US before we bombed Tokyo, Berlin, Dresden and, famously Hiroshima? (we actually did drop leaflets on Hiroshima) And how much should their action be stymied by the presence of civilians? And what would the long term effect be. i.e. would it actually result in more deaths?
 
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Reasonably Sane

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Hamas is a terrorist group. The Nazis were state actors.
A technical distinction only. In fact, I would argue that Hamas is closer to the people of the country than the Nazis were to Germans. Especially physically. Nazis were not usually hiding and attacking from the same buildings as their citizens were using. In fact, when Berlin was finally sacked, it was mostly civilians defending it.
 
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Reasonably Sane

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