Christian Viewpoint On The Gun Debate

[Divide]

Thanks! I do try so I appreciate the acknowledgement. I don't think it's as weird as this obsession with guns. As a gun owner, it's even weird to me. Gun culture in this society has changed. I grew up where they were treated as tools that required great responsibility for use. Now they're treated as objects of identity, signals of political affiliation, and as props for Christmas cards. It's gross.

Not me, I'm old enough to be a good ol' boy. Guns are not my identity those are generation or two younger than I am who grew up on video games and never learned critical thinking.

Props for christmas cards? When I lived in Colorado we made our own christmas cards from photos. None of them had guns in them. WHy? We went to Royal Gorge park and Bridge (tourist spot) and walked over the bridge and there was Deer everywhere and people were feeding them. The little carryout there sold bags of deer pellets so we bught some bags and went out aand got the most spectacular roll of film of us all feeding deer from our hands! Those were made into Christmas cards. They were beautiful! I got accused from relatives back east to faking the photos somehow, Lol! But they were real. So, tell me again how I am somehow a bad gun owner and in what way?

I never made a gun christmas card in my life and I'm a long time gun nut. Oh we took pictures at the range with guns, but that different. We didnt make christmas cards from those pictures. Those are photo album pictures. So in my case you are wrong in your assumptions, and I dont really know anybody that is like that either. So you dont hole water.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't believe being Christian means not arming yourself or your family against physical threats from others.

Self defense isn't violence.

I don't shun self defense.

Interest in self-defense itself isn't violence but it can be an occasion to let some very sinful things enter your life and try to control it. I've seen enough of that first-hand.

Christian, or otherwise, I'm not sacrificing myself to look noble to a pacifist who would probably throw me under the bus to buy themselves time to run.

That's not an accurate view of Christian pacifism or peace testimony.

 

[Divide]

I'm not going to live in fear. I'm certainly not going to fear not having a gun. I'm not going live in fear of being shot. I'm not going to live in fear of suffering and death. This is the great thing about faith in Christ. I don't have to operate from a place of fear unless I choose to.

Who said I live in fear? I have the biggest God in the Universe as my God and He will help me and protect me if I but ask Him. You have not because you ask not, remember?

And what happens if there is not time to pray? I still dont fear because I am armed to the teeth. How can you say I fear because I own guns? I don't fear partly because I do own guns.

What will you do if there is not time to pray? Oh, that's right, you are a gun owner. Smart.

Carrying a gun leaves mucho room for having faith in God! Most pistols are woefully underpowered so there aint no guarentee that a pistol will even save you if you shoot the badguy.

When someone shows up at the ER with a gunshot wound, if it wa a pistol shot they try stabilize him. If it was being shot by a rifle...they try to save his life. Any rifle puts most pistols cartridges to shame. But we still cant carry rifles everywhere it would cause discomfort and alarm to the general public, so we carry pistols. Whoops, now we're back at that Faith in God thing again!

 

[public hermit]

Props for christmas cards?

Sadly, yeah. There's a bunch of examples. This one comes to mind:

I'm a long time gun nut

Of course, some people have their idiosyncratic likes and obsessions. I have more books than Carter has liver pills. What I'm referring to is a gun loving culture, which is not a stand alone phenomenon, but intimately connected with conservative politics, which is intimately connected with conservative Christianity. Gun culture, in itself, has changed, and in doing so, conservative Christianity has become shaped by it in weird, unhealthy ways.

 

[Adam56]

Self defense is a biblical concept. Free will and personal responsibility are also personal concepts.

 

[YorkieGal]

Sadly, yeah. There's a bunch of examples. This one comes to mind:
View attachment 338933




Of course, some people have their idiosyncratic likes and obsessions. I have more books than Carter has liver pills. What I'm referring to is a gun loving culture, which is not a stand alone phenomenon, but intimately connected with conservative politics, which is intimately connected with conservative Christianity. Gun culture, in itself, has changed, and in doing so, conservative Christianity has become shaped by it in weird, unhealthy ways.

Thomas Massie isn't representing Christianity in this photo.

He's representing his stance on 2A as a member of congress.

Is there anyone else in the world, apart from this senator, using guns as 'Christmas cards'?

Because, otherwise, I don't believe this one example can be used as a generalization for Christians and guns.

 

[Divide]

Lion, Bear, Pack Wild Dogs, Pit Bull on your walk around suburbia ... its just better to be prepared.

Wow. That was just as scary as my incident! That man was walking backwards and that lion was walking right along with him. And those warning shots? They didnt hardly faze that lion! It gave him something to think about though, lol! And the lion chose wisely and went away from the man.

And That, is the first rule of Gun Fighting: Have A Gun.
Even skill with your weapon is down the list in importance, first you have to have a gun. If guns are outlawed, only Mountain Lions will have Assault Claws. Hup! I feel discriminated against lol.

 

[public hermit]

Who said I live in fear? I have the biggest God in the Universe as my God and He will help me and protect me if I but ask Him. You have not because you ask not, remember?

And what happens if there is not time to pray? I still dont fear because I am armed to the teeth. How can you say I fear because I own guns? I don't fear partly because I do own guns.

What will you do if there is not time to pray? Oh, that's right, you are a gun owner. Smart.

Carrying a gun leaves mucho room for having faith in God! Most pistols are woefully underpowered so there aint no guarentee that a pistol will even save you if you shoot the badguy.

When someone shows up at the ER with a gunshot wound, if it wa a pistol shot they try stabilize him. If it was being shot by a rifle...they try to save his life. Any rifle puts most pistols cartridges to shame. But we still cant carry rifles everywhere it would cause discomfort and alarm to the general public, so we carry pistols. Whoops, now we're back at that Faith in God thing again!

Yeah, and just any idiot can carry a gun now. We've thrown responsibility out the window. As you indicated, not everyone is growing up learning responsible gun use. We have become irresponsible as citizens. As a whole we are responsible. Imfor much stricter regulations include a national registry and much more involved training. It should be harder than getting a driver's license since it's not as necessary in day to day living.

As far as faith goes, my point is simple: If we claim Christ and are also willing to kill to save our own life, fine. But we should be honest that it's spiritually weak and of the flesh. There's no shame in proper humility and honesty. If you're weak, say your weak. I'm pretty sure I'm weak only because I know myself and my capabilities. That's nothing of which to be proud. No one can have a heart full of Christ and hurts others, even in justified situations, without it having an adverse effect. The very thought should break our hearts.

 

[Divide]

Sadly, yeah. There's a bunch of examples. This one comes to mind:
View attachment 338933




Of course, some people have their idiosyncratic likes and obsessions. I have more books than Carter has liver pills. What I'm referring to is a gun loving culture, which is not a stand alone phenomenon, but intimately connected with conservative politics, which is intimately connected with conservative Christianity. Gun culture, in itself, has changed, and in doing so, conservative Christianity has become shaped by it in weird, unhealthy ways.

Wow, what a cool picture! The kids have a couple AR's and I'm not positive what the two on the left is, maybe some type of .308? Maybe because these kids are the biggest ones and would have an interest in .308's because of the dad, see what he is holding?! Wow. And his Wife even has a Tommygun, which strikes me as a very fine weapon for a woman. The 45ACP is a low recoiling pistol cartridge which has a very good record as a stopper. And the ungodly weight of a Tommy gun would only have even less recoil to shoot, and lots bigger mags! I say good on dad there! I don't see any trigger fingers on the triggers, that's notable. So I would say that this picture doesnt represent the gun culture that you say is so bad, it is only a sign of the times.

Go watch the videos of the kooks on youtube. Kids showing off to the video with guns and shoot it in their house like an idiot. I've seen so many of those videos, wow. But that man is not the same culture as those youtube kooks. Get real.

A sign of the times, that's all. I like it!

 

[public hermit]

Thomas Massie isn't representing Christianity in this photo

He represents the idolatrous gun culture and politics that conservative Christians support.

Is there anyone else in the world, apart from this senator, using guns as 'Christmas cards'?

Because, otherwise, I don't believe this one example can be used as a generalization for Christians and guns

There are plenty. We have the internet. I'm not posting more here.

I think some (many?) Christians need to seriously reconsider how they view guns. The current blind adherence to politically motivated positions is spirituality unhealthy and physically dangerous for all of us. Conservative Christians have too much power to not be more responsible on this issue.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Sadly, yeah. There's a bunch of examples. This one comes to mind:
View attachment 338933




Of course, some people have their idiosyncratic likes and obsessions. I have more books than Carter has liver pills. What I'm referring to is a gun loving culture, which is not a stand alone phenomenon, but intimately connected with conservative politics, which is intimately connected with conservative Christianity. Gun culture, in itself, has changed, and in doing so, conservative Christianity has become shaped by it in weird, unhealthy ways.

That really is the saddest excuse for a family Christmas photo I've ever seen. It's unfortunate that I have to see it here yet once again ...

 

[YorkieGal]

He represents the idolatrous gun culture and politics that conservative Christians support.




There are plenty. We have the internet. I'm not posting more here.

I think some (many?) Christians need to seriously reconsider how they view guns. The current blind adherence to politically motivated positions is spirituality unhealthy and physically dangerous for all of us. Conservative Christians have too much power to not be more responsible on this issue.

I don't think he represents anything other than what he says he represents which is his view on the 2A.

I view guns as my constitutional right which shall not be infringed.

Jesus doesn't come into this conversation, for me.

I don't believe self defense is violence or murder and that is where Jesus comes in. If I genuinely believed Christians were told to lift their throats as sacrificial lambs to every lunatic, tyranny etc then that's what I'd do, but I don't and I won't.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don't think he represents anything other than what he says he represents which is his view on the 2A.

I view guns as my constitutional right which shall not be infringed.

Jesus doesn't come into this conversation, for me.

I don't believe self defense is violence or murder and that is where Jesus comes in. If I genuinely believed Christians were told to lift their throats as sacrificial lambs to every lunatic, tyranny etc then that's what I'd do, but I don't and I won't.

I get you. ... the whole issue isn't REALLY about guns. It's about the ideology and the sanity of those who use them.

As Christians, I'd like to think we could do all of this with both sanity and intelligence.

 

[Divide]

Yeah, and just any idiot can carry a gun now. We've thrown responsibility out the window. As you indicated, not everyone is growing up learning responsible gun use. We have become irresponsible as citizens. As a whole we are responsible. Imfor much stricter regulations include a national registry and much more involved training. It should be harder than getting a driver's license since it's not as necessary in day to day living.

Maybe some people have never learned personal responsibility? But what is that to me? I have personal responsibility and can prove it. I have carried a concealed pistol for over 38 years now, daily. That's a long time to be running around with a pistol. What happened you say? I'm glad you asked, I have never ever shot anyone and never had any sort of a gun violation charge. I did have several close calls and can say I almost shot them, but I didn't shoot them because that's not what I wanted to do. I just wanted to survive and my (pregnant) wife. So I was able to handle the situation and not shoot them because I had a gun on me. Having a gun on you when you need it gives you extra time to think to end the situation without bloodshed.

That's no accident that I never shot anyone. It simply means that no one has forced me to shoot them yet. You anti gunner types don't seem to ever want to give credit to anyone who has ever sucessfully had to go on the defense and only spout doom and gloom. Forgive me brother, but that's childish. In fact there are more no shots fired self defense usages of the gun than there are shots fired incidents in the US.

So there are idiots with guns on the street. But not as many as you may think. I am no idiot. And we can discuss this all day and I will show you to be wrong because I have put in the time and have this experience. How many close call stories would you like to hear that I have had? Would you like to hear about the (Attempted!) Home Invasion that we had? Or the time two husky guys were going to Strongarm rom me & my (pregnant) wife? How about the time a big dog attacked me?
Ok, admittedly, there were two shots fired, but both were warning shots in seperate incidents. But I did not shoot the dog. I did not shoot the home invader. I could have but I did not (because I'm not an idiot! Lol!) and even though the police frown on warning shots (and I knew that) I accepted the responsibility of the warning shots that I used. And to great success! I didn't shoot that guy and he was fighting me to get into my house on the porch! How nice is that?!

Come on Brother, let's toss this around some. Carrying a pistol is a huge responsibility that is my responsibility alone. 38 years, noone has been shot. So how would that make me an idiot subject to the idiot laws? Answer: It doesn't. And wont.

 

[public hermit]

Come on Brother, let's toss this around some. Carrying a pistol is a huge responsibility that is my responsibility alone

We don't live in some philosophical state of nature. We are responsible for others as far as we are citizens who inform law making in this country. Radical individualism is an illusion.

 

[Divide]

I think some (many?) Christians need to seriously reconsider how they view guns. The current blind adherence to politically motivated positions is spirituality unhealthy and physically dangerous for all of us. Conservative Christians have too much power to not be more responsible on this issue.

That sounds like sound advice. So (long ago) I accepted the personal resonsibility and had already considered the consequences of carrying a gun. And I still do to this day.

But what if I was raptured and my family was largely left behind and the Tribulation kicks in? Maybe I should get an extra AR15 to leave to family in case they might need it? Maybe us Christians should seriously reconsider how we view guns. They are tools. A better hammer for a different job. I didn't start the wars on earth and I didnt invent the guns. So what I can do is to make more effort towards making sure my family will have a chance at being kept safe. It's the least we could do.

Not the most, the least.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

We don't live in some philosophical state of nature. We are responsible for others as far as we are citizens who inform law making in this country. Radical individualism is an illusion.

I very much agree with what you're saying, PH. The problem among many of us in the U.S. is our "US vs. THEM" mentality, and this comes in more than one political flavor on both the Left and the Right.

Radicial individualism is indeed an illusion; it's not Christian by any means, and what's more, we don't find the idea of 'individualism' in the Bible.

On the other hand, radical collectivism is an illusion too, and neither of these options is what Jesus directed His disciples to lead forth with in our common social world. But somewhere along the way in the worlds recourses to Revolutionary idealogies, we've posited these two positions as being the only viable options from which to identify.

However, in contradistinction from these two false ideological leads, I think the key word Jesus and His apostles wanted us all to pay attention to, and over which we have such a difficult time coming to terms, is "inter-dependence," especially within the Body of Christ. We all need to work harder to be mindful of our duties as Christians over and above our other, civic duties.

Somewhere then, and somehow in the midst of the political divide, our various tools (like guns) should be seen in this light of mutual respect for other human beings.

 

[public hermit]

Always makes me wonder why, when the name calling and buzzwords start.

Use whatever words you like. The idea, and the illusion it represents, is there.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Always makes me wonder why, when the name calling and buzzwords start.

It's not name calling to point out the fact that "individualism" isn't and has never been a Christian moral value. It's not biblical. We probably shouldn't talk it up or even simply imply that it ever was ...

 

[public hermit]

I very much agree with what you're saying, PH. The problem among many of us in the U.S. is our "US vs. THEM" mentality, and this comes in more than one political flavor on both the Left and the Right.

Radicial individualism is indeed an illusion; it's not Christian by any means, and what's more, we don't find the idea of 'individualism' in the Bible.

On the other hand, radical collectivism is an illusion too, and neither of these options is what Jesus directed His disciples to lead forth with in our common social world. I think the key word Jesus and His apostles wanted us all to pay attention to is "inter-dependence," especially within the Body of Christ.

Somewhere, somehow, our various tools (like guns) should be seen in this light, I think.

That makes sense. I think a fundamental question with which Christians are faced is balancing the natural tendency toward self-preservation and the call to live according to the way of Christ and his kingdom. I think that's very difficult and don't want to treat it as if it's a simple thing. It's not, but it's also not as easy as guns a blazing! Lol