Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
I should apologize that I was short with you at times.
Of course not. That is the point I've been making, so why would I have a problem with it? Do you have any other ridiculous questions that you'd like to ask?
Do you never read any other English translations or consult any Greek resources?
I have no idea what you are intending to say here. We are talking about a figurative or spiritual wedding between Jesus Christ and His many followers. To try to relate it directly to a Jewish wedding in every way is just silly.
Oh, that's obvious, is it? It's somehow obvious that "the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed" is not the day of the rapture? Really? No. You are being disingenuous here. You can disagree that it's about the rapture if you want, but to say it obviously isn't about the rapture? No way. If you set aside doctrinal bias, I don't see any reason why a description of "the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed" would not immediately bring to mind the day that He will come and gather us all to Him in the air.
So, you acknowledge that 1 Thess 4:14-17 is a reference to His second coming and not to a pre-trib rapture then?
How would I think you already knew that when you deny that 1 Thess 4:14-17 is part of the same event as Revelation 19:11-21?
It shows His own coming with Him from heaven just like 1 Thess 4:14 does. It's the souls of the dead in Christ who will be coming with Him from heaven.
What exactly proves me to be in error? Please elaborate on that instead of just making unfounded claims with no support for them.
Setting aside that there isn't a "last seven years" period of time taught in scripture, how exactly would someone confuse a long period of time that has been almost 2,000 years so far with a 7 year period of time? Why would that be a concern to you when it's impossible for anyone to equate those two things?
Where do Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 indicate that the ones being gathered from heaven are not the souls of the dead in Christ who have not yet had their bodies raised up and changed?
You are not addressing my points. Where does Paul indicate that the sudden destruction he talks about as occurring in conjunction with the day of the Lord lasts for seven years (or any length of time longer than a 24 hour day)? Where does Peter indicate that the fiery destruction he described in relation to the day of the Lord would last seven years?
No, it isn't. There is no scripture which teaches that.
I clearly didn't reference 2nd Thessalonians 2. What we should also do is read what is actually being said.
Scripture does not teach that anywhere. The ones who will be with Him when He comes from heaven are the souls of the dead in Christ. That may or may not include us, depending on whether we die before He comes or not.
There is no return to earth as we know it. He will meet His people in the air at which time He will destroy His enemies and the judgment will then occur in the realm of eternity. When that concludes we will inherit the new heavens and new earth for eternity.
It has to be symbolic because that is said in relation to the new heavens and new earth (Isaiah 65:17-25). John makes it very clear that there will be no more death on the new earth (Revelation 21:4).
So, it's not meant to be taken to be limited to a literal one thousand generations or to a literal one thousand hills, right? So, why can't that be the case in regards to the thousand years as well?
They are dead, and alive. All believers are gathered who believe when He returns with us. In that way it is similar to the Rapture. A difference though is that we who return with Jesus, the Bride, already have been raised and already have our eternal bodies like Jesus.
Why does everyone have to mention how many years or months something lasts? We have the whole bible for that. We already know how long the tribulation is and the millennium. So it depends what destruction we are talking about.
If that was about the new earth it has nothing to do with seven years.
There are verses that talk of that day and different things that happen in that day. Some of the things that happen in that day like the tribulation and the 1000 years have clear time frames. The math is simple
Well, leave that verse then if it sticks in your craw.
Yes, when Jesus returns it is with ten thousands of His saints. We also know the Bride and marriage are in heaven while the tribulation is going. We know that because Jesus returns immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days. We also are told that the heaven opens and Jesus comes down from that marriage scene in heaven.
Not at the return to earth, we come with Him then. At the Rapture, years before this He returns with people from heaven who still need to have their bodies raised as well. like us who are raised alive.
No he gathers us and we meet in the air. Clear as can be.
The millennium is not the new earth. When the 1000 years are over, Satan is freed and a rebellion happens and fire burns them and He creates a new heaven and earth.
In both cases there are a thousand involved and more.
Because we rule with Him as promised then. People live and die in that time. Lots of stuff happens in that time.
Yes. The wrath of God is different from the tribulation (thlipsis) or affliction that Christians face from the world. Two different things.
So where are the verses that say that the church is raptured before tribulation? Again, it's not there in the Olivet Discourse at all.
Who ruled Jerusalem before 1967? Gentiles. Who ruled Jerusalem after 1967? Jews.
This was in reference to my earlier statement in which I had a typo:
So first, fix your attitude.
Perfect! So you acknowledge that the Olivet Discourse (and thus, eschatology) could have been progressively fulfilled in the future after the Bible was written, but before 2023AD. We're on the same metaphorical block, we're now only discussing to what degree.
God has never stopped dealing with Israel. Here's some non-eschatological proof:
Right. And Mat 24 was about the former I think. The actual tribulation
We simply need to read prophesies. Then we recognize events like the second coming.
The temple mount doesn't count?
You know the way things are going Jerusalem could get trodden again. it seems. But the temple mount is trodden by gentiles. I am not sure that unbelieving Israel are not Gentiles either? They do not believe in God.
If we are talking the Great Tribulation we know that ends the times of the Gentiles. Same thing
We do not meet Jesus in the air at the second coming we descend from the air with Him to earth
You want to call the return of Jesus to earth a rapture also?
Not the events of the Great Tribulation, they are unique.
Some prophesies have been fulfilled. Many have not yet. The problem comes when you lump that together and say something was already fulfilled when it was not.
Their history was given 70 weeks till it was all fulfilled. The rejected Jesus after the 69th week. There is that last week left. When it starts, we are gone. Then God finishes things with Israel finally. He only deals with Children as far as judgments and chastening go. Unbelievers are not sons. They are bastards. They will only be sons again after they get saved and only then will Good restore them to the land and protect them etc.
Israel controls the Temple Mount along with the rest of Jerusalem and has since 1967. Any arrangements they have about worshiping on that mountain are ultimately at Israel's discretion. The point is, the ultimate authority is Jewish and not Gentile; and 1967 was the first time that happened in thousands of years. This IMO fulfills the time of the Gentiles; there is no need to look for some future fulfillment of this prophecy when it was literally fulfilled in the lifetime of many of the posters on this forum.
Yes, I am a Prophecy guy, its a must. Its not relevant, a bride is a wife, the relevant part is we are in Heaven. The pre trib rapture, as a prophecy guy, when I see people can't see it, I understand I have to be skeptical about all of their eschatological takes on matters.
Exactly what I said. Jesus used the Jewish Wedding Pattern over and over, just like he used the 7 Feasts to tell us things, and the last trump is referring to the 100th trump (last) during the Feast of trumps that always ended the Harvest (Church age) season.
Yes, its obvious, you not being able to see the timing of the pre trib rapture is on you, its not a difficult understanding to see tbh.
I didn't say that you said it, 1 Thess, chapter 1 is not 1 Thess. 4. And by the way, Paul might have been talking about the Rapture then inferring that justice would come 3.5 years later and that we would see Christ rule 7 years later, you are not seeing "Thus Saith the Lord scriptures" we ae seeing letters to churches Paul pastors. So, when the Corinthians though their loved ones were going to be left behind in the grave Paul tries to pick up their faith, hope, he says the dead will rise "FIRTST" then those of us alive will be changed in the "BLINK OF AN EYE" let me tell you, a blink of an eyes means the SAME TIME (LOL) tat how preachers and pastors are, they seek to build faith, anyone that reads that and doesn't understand it is the exact same time is kidding themselves. That why we "Meet in the air" to go be with the Lord.
Firstly, you try conflating passages, 1 Thess. 1 which you first cited is not 1 Thess. 4.
No one goes to heaven until the Rapture, REREAD 1 Cor. 15 very carefully. Why are the dead risen at the end if they are already in heaven? It does not compute, Paul tells us THEY SLEEP, as does Daniel 12:1-2.
The whole bible proves the Pre Trib Rapture. Its very obvious. I as a prophecy guy can understand via scriptures where the Anti-Christ is from, that the False Prophet is a Jewish High Priest gone rogue, that the E.U. = the 10 (completion) horns, that the end time Beast come to power in the E.U. that the Scarlet Colored Beast is Apollyon, and you think I can't see the simple things like the pre trib rapture? That is easy stuff to me brother, I left that question behind long ago.
They can't even pray there that is hardly control. About the closet they can come to pray is the old bit of retaining wall that remains that surrounded the mount.
Sure. No one wants to go up there anyhow and pray or build stuff etc? One leader tried it years ago and caused an uprising.
No. Sorry. Most will not even bring their embassies there.
No way. We also know that that is fulfilled when Jesus returns as it is mentioned in the chapters dealing with that.
No need to pretend a prophesy was fulfilled when it wasn't.
To repeat myself, the verse plainly says:
No, sorry. Not really. The verse refers to Jesus returning when He will rule. It is no use pretending that the times of the gentiles are over. Israel is a bunch of Gentiles since they are unbelievers in the True God anyhow. Not really negotiable. The temple mount has only one people praying on it today.
I doubt Israel would elect to have the abomination of desolation. They control it in name only, a pretense.
No. you are just unaware of a fuller biblical context.
Never happen till He returns. I would not be surprised if it gets a lot more trodden than it is today before the end either.
Not true or important at all, it is a farce.
Luke 21:25
Where you missed it: you have tried to mix up apples with oranges, so to speak. There are two, no three categories of saints. First, there are the Old Testament saints, NONE of which were "in Christ." They died before Christ was born.
Do you have scripture supporting your idea that the modern nation of Israel and its government are somehow Gentiles? If not, then this is conjecture.
I think we can agree Israel had an inconsistent history in terms of this. Judges 2:19, Judges 21:25, 2 Kings 10:28-29, 2 Chronicles 25:2 for example.
If this "fuller Biblical context" is 2 raptures, you have yet to provide scriptural proof.
Okay?
Jews ruling Jerusalem, claiming they rule Jerusalem, not being "important" to Luke 21:24 is not true or important? Really? I think your statement is the farcical statement. Again, you're going to have to come up with scripture.
This is a fallacious straw man argument. I never said that these events took place in 1967. Here is what I said:
Now, whether verses 25 and 26 are in the process of taking place now symbolically/spiritually - who knows. But to sum things up:
None needed. Just ask them and see. Or check the stats. They are unbelievers. The definition I saw of Gentile is someone that does not believe in the one true God. Unbelievers do not.
Forget the word rapture. There is, we can say the gathering together in the air, and the resurrection when Jesus returns to earth
The context for Luke 21:24 is clear.
I know. Jesus returning is not symbolic
"
That is the return of Christ.
