How Does One Put A Pre-Trib Rapture Before “The Last Day”?

[Fisherking]

So your opinion is basically that the great marriage feast of the King of all universes and His Bride is watching dead bodies get eaten by birds. OK

Yes, the wicked need to be defeated, and are, good tramples evil, right makes right, we are celebrating our life in Christ and that eternal commitment which gave us life eternal. And no, we are not watching Dead Bodies, Jesus will kill them by the presence of his coming, its metaphoric, like most everything in Revelation.

I am not sure we can take Jewish weddings too far in this comparison

Might want to rethink that after I posted my presentation that ties it all together.

If the celebration is in heaven, and we return with Jesus, then we see the destruction of the wicked as well.

No, that comes a 1000 years later in reality, we see them slain, not all sinners left on earth take the Mark of the Beast, that's why Jesus rules with a Rod of Iron !! However those killed are "bound up to be burned later" remember the parable of the Wheat and the tares? They will grow together until the end, the tares will be bound up in order to be burned later. So, Jesus will slay those with the Mark of the Beast but they will rest in the grave until the 2nd Resurrection.

What makes anyone ready to be saved and with Jesus? It is accepting His free gift of salvation that He paid for in our place. So I think both the fine linen and making ourselves ready are completely about having received Jesus. (as opposed to brushing our hair and dressing up and rehearsing etc in heaven for seven days)

No, look at the 5th Seal, they were given "White Robes" and told they must wait. Those White Robes represent our new Glorious bodies. We are so evil (most do not get this) as humans God can not come in our presence else His Holy Glory would slay us. 70 looked into the ark of the covenant and died, men coming into the holy of holies had to be sprinkled with a blood offering, Jesus is now our blood offering, but get this.

When Mary understood who Jesus was outside his grave, she was very happy he called her name and said Lord, but Jesus told her "Touch me not" for I have not yet ascended unto the Father [to offer the sacrifice]. So, Jesus was basically telling us if Mary merely touched him it would have defiled the offering unto God via Sin stain. We know 8 days later Jesus asked doubting Thomas to touch his wounds, so Jesus went to heaven, offered the sacrifice, and returned. We are saved and sealed, but we still are living in very, very corrupt bodies, born in sin, we get a new Spirit Man on earth, not a new body, we get that in Heaven.

There are no seven years in a Jewish wedding are there? Besides who is to say that the Rapture was not seven days before the last seven years started?

As in Daniel 9:24-27 and elsewhere, in prophecy a day is as a year in many cases.

Some people think there has to be a gap because they think the A.C. has to have some time to coax this agreement with Israel, some don't think there has to be a gap but don't seem to know why, but the truth is, at least imho, it is not the Rapture that kicks it all off, or even starts the process, its Israel making their agreement that kicks it all off, this angers God and starts their 70th week of penance, and God thus raptures the Church at that moment in time.

I was thinking more of a great celebration feast in heaven where we finally get to see Jesus, and all our loved ones who had died before, and the bible heroes and where we are rewarded with crowns and whatever at the judgment seat of Jesus. Then, for a honeymoon, we return to earth with Him, and see the end of all enemies and help Him rule on earth for 1000 years.

Look, its simply Jesus telling us the future by using things his disciples all understood, they would have understood these wedding analogies. Everyone of those I listed in the other post. We have to get on top of these things in order to see what he was trying to convey unto them.

I don't see anything in your post here bolded. However I think there are two suppers one for the Bride and one for the wicked.

I bolded and underlined your Reply passage which had Rev. 20:4 in it, go back and look, but the point is it specifically says that that only those (THEY) who refused the Mark of the Beast will live and serve with Christ for 1000 years. Its says they..........thus its referring to 70th week martyrs only.


And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Pretty specific point made there.

Who are on those thrones judging? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? If we came down with Jesus and already had our crowns how could it not be us? That means the only group there would not be the tribulation saints that were made alive when He returned.

There we are only judging the Martyrs in Christ, the wicked are judged at the 2nd resurrection in 1000 yrs

Where Jesus is there will we be also. When He returns to earth we will too. When He rules and judges, so will we with Him. Having believers from the last seven years join us in that does not mean only they will be here with Jesus ruling.

That's just not so, Jesus doesn't need a billion or two billion people with Glorious bodies on earth, ONLY THOSE who refused the Mark of the Beast and get their Glorious bodies will be used, Rev. 20:4 specifically states this to be the case. God doesn't want us to be idle minded. Jesus is God, he could handle this alone basically, but he will use the 70th week Martyrs. Israel will be controlled by people like Daniel who will stand in their lot at the very end as Daniel 12 says. The Kingdom Age is about Israel, not us per se. Jesus and God are everywhere.

Much like what happened for the Bride in heaven already

Well, as I stated "elsewhere" (wherever that was) the fact we get raised at the first resurrection means we are in Christ, but these judgment seats are about rewards for a job well done, and I think assignments.

Is there something about a nice feast in heaven that opposes Jewish customs?

Yes, it would not relay the story Jesus needed to tell about 7 years in Heaven, then a return tp earth with the groom (Jesus) to destroy the Wicked. How can the Wicked be destroyed in Heaven when they are on earth? You see, as I stated earlier, its not about a wedding or feast per se, its about Jesus relating the future of events to come using events from his time that his disciples understood. It is what it is.

Can you show where it mentions the brides of Jesus around when He returns?

The 144,000 have the Fathers name, God wed Israel long ago, we know this.

I think it says right in the passages who they are. Those are those who were killed in the tribulation now in heaven. Much like how there are many many dead Christians in heaven as we speak. They will return with Jesus at the RAPTURE to receive, like us, their new eternal bodies! The dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

No it doesn't, nor can it say that.

There are no Christians in Heaven as we speak, else how come at the Rapture we are raised up a blink of an eye or mili-second after the Dead in Christ are raised up, and both go to be with Christ in heaven. Why would the dead need to be raised if they are in heaven? Read Dan. 12:1-2, it says we sleep in the grave. In Cor. 15 it says we sleep in the grave. Now, if we simply go by what the bible says, no one can as we speak be in heaven, that is why we are all raised at the "First Resurrection" or if we are alive we are changed, meaning from a human to a Spirt Man. (this is easily proven by reading 1 Cor. 15:40-52 in full, vs. 44 even says we are raised as Spirit Men)

Those in heaven came out of great tribulation, not the 70th week Greatest Ever Tribulation. Seal #5 specifically says Jesus tells them they can nit get vengeance until all of their brothers have been killed in like manner, meaning only after the Beasts 42 months rule is over. And we see the Martyrs raised and Judged in Rev. 20:4, why weren't they in heaven? Because no one who misses the wedding call goes to heaven after the 70th week. They will get glorious bodies but rule with Christ Jesus on earth for 1000 years.

Did you think these were pre trib Christians as well?

No, they are the Martyrs raised in Rev. 20:4.

Coffee time, need a break.

 

[truthpls]

Yes, the wicked need to be defeated, and are, good tramples evil, right makes right, we are celebrating our life in Christ and that eternal commitment which gave us life eternal. And no, we are not watching Dead Bodies, Jesus will kill them by the presence of his coming, its metaphoric, like most everything in Revelation.

Opinion noted

No, that comes a 1000 years later in reality, we see them slain, not all sinners left on earth take the Mark of the Beast, that's why Jesus rules with a Rod of Iron !! However those killed are "bound up to be burned later" remember the parable of the Wheat and the tares? They will grow together until the end, the tares will be bound up in order to be burned later. So, Jesus will slay those with the Mark of the Beast but they will rest in the grave until the 2nd Resurrection.

Jesus also destroys all enemies when He returns to earth

No, look at the 5th Seal, they were given "White Robes" and told they must wait. Those White Robes represent our new Glorious bodies.

Says who?
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

We are saved and sealed, but we still are living in very, very corrupt bodies, born in sin, we get a new Spirit Man on earth, not a new body, we get that in Heaven.

Proof? At the Rapture we get that in the air.

As in Daniel 9:24-27 and elsewhere, in prophecy a day is as a year in many cases.

Actually in Dan 9 a week of years is seven years. A year is 360 days. Not a day is a year!

Some people think there has to be a gap because they think the A.C. has to have some time to coax this agreement with Israel, some don't think there has to be a gap but don't seem to know why, but the truth is, at least imho, it is not the Rapture that kicks it all off, or even starts the process, its Israel making their agreement that kicks it all off, this angers God and starts their 70th week of penance, and God thus raptures the Church at that moment in time.

I do not recall any passage that says the seven years start when Israel does something?

Look, its simply Jesus telling us the future by using things his disciples all understood, they would have understood these wedding analogies. Everyone of those I listed in the other post. We have to get on top of these things in order to see what he was trying to convey unto them.

Listing something does not make it gospel

I bolded and underlined your Reply passage which had Rev. 20:4 in it, go back and look, but the point is it specifically says that that only those (THEY) who refused the Mark of the Beast will live and serve with Christ for 1000 years. Its says they..........thus its referring to 70th week martyrs only.

Also us on thrones judging. Sorry yo can't wave us away. We rule with Jesus also

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

You forget the thrones the returned Bride sits on as well.

There we are only judging the Martyrs in Christ, the wicked are judged at the 2nd resurrection in 1000 yrs

Says who? I already posted the verse that say we will judge the world.

Well, as I stated "elsewhere" (wherever that was) the fact we get raised at the first resurrection means we are in Christ, but these judgment seats are about rewards for a job well done, and I think assignments.

Who are 'we" If the first resurrection is the folks who died in the tribulation, that is not us.

Yes, it would not relay the story Jesus needed to tell about 7 years in Heaven, then a return tp earth with the groom (Jesus) to destroy the Wicked. How can the Wicked be destroyed in Heaven when they are on earth?

Easy, the tribulation rages while we party up there. Then, we return with Jesus who Personally destroys all enemies.

You see, as I stated earlier, its not about a wedding or feast per se, its about Jesus relating the future of events to come using events from his time that his disciples understood. It is what it is.

I say it is about a real wedding feast in a real heaven with a real Jesus and real angels and us really there.

The 144,000 have the Fathers name, God wed Israel long ago, we know this.

Great, as long as they are saved no one says Jewish believers have to be the church/bride of Christ

There are no Christians in Heaven as we speak,

Yes all Christians are there who died. To be absent in body here is to be present with Him there.

else how come at the Rapture we are raised up a blink of an eye or mili-second after the Dead in Christ are raised up, and both go to be with Christ in heaven. Why would the dead need to be raised if they are in heaven?

I already told you. They need new eternal bodies that are physical and spiritual like Jesus has just like we do. Their spirits return with Jesus at the Rapture to have their old bodies raised up.

Read Dan. 12:1-2, it says we sleep in the grave.

Our bodies do. Our spirits go too be with Him in heaven

In Cor. 15 it says we sleep in the grave.

No the dead in Christ are raised, their bodies. Then we who are alive also get new eternal bodies. We all do

Now, if we simply go by what the bible says, no one can as we speak be in heaven,

Yes. They sure are

that is why we are all raised at the "First Resurrection"

No, we were raised in the Rapture, years before the return of Jesus when we sit on thrones and He also raises the tribulation martyrs from the dead!

or if we are alive we are changed, meaning from a human to a Spirt Man. (this is easily proven by reading 1 Cor. 15:40-52 in full, vs. 44 even says we are raised as Spirit Men)

No, we will be like Jesus, not a ghost just as He showed He was not by eating.

Those in heaven came out of great tribulation,

Only those in heaven who died in that tribulation. We are also there.

 

[Fisherking]

I see no reason not to.

Well its going to be very hard for you to ever grasp the book of Revelation, Daniel or Ezekiel then.

Oh oh I am seeing a pattern here. Waving away things. We were given specific numbers and specific tribes.

No, my calling has been prophecy for many years, this 60ish year old man has prayed, studied, and come to understand God's ways of communicating are sometime in parables, codes, metaphors etc., especially when it comes to prophesy. Many times there are reasons for this. So, the church in those Roman days could have been in peril if they had written documents where Rome was shown to have been destroyed or defeated, and even if it stated the world would be judged, Rome saw themselves as "The World" so to them that was sedition, and anyone holding those letters (Book of Revelation) or Documents would have been killed. If they had Docs that stated Israel was an entity, and would one day rule with God, that also would have been seen as sedition, so God used codes for a reason.(Babylon, The Woman, 144,000)

Well, God knowing all things, thus used the words Babylon and Beast instead of the words World/Rome and then these Roman soldiers read this stuff and laughed, saying "These crazy people think Babylon is going to be destroyed, it hasn't been a city in eons" or, "these people think a great beast died with a Mortal wound then returns again" (It meant Rome was going to die and be conquered by the Gospel for the duration of the Church Age, from Constantine until the Rapture).

Likewise, you will not find the word Israel in the book of Revelation, have you never noticed that? Rome had just conquered Israel in 70 AD, so God was not going to give John a book (to copy via signs and words from Angels, authored by God) that showed Israel as still being an entity who in the end wins out and ruled with God during the Kingdom Age, that would have been instant death for anyone with that book, or with those letters, so God again used "codes" to protect the church because God knows all and sees all and knows how to do these things. In Rev. 12, we see the "Woman" used and all we have to do is read Gen. 37:9 and that solves the code for us, in other words knowing the old testament is a requirement to be able to understand the book of Revelation. Part of God's codes are numbers and the way they were used in the old testament when the Hebrew language had only 4000 words (we have over 500,000 today) and was very rudimentary in nature. So, not only does God not want to say Israel, He also does not want to give Satan any type advantage by telling him how to plan in the future, so instead of giving him real numbers, whenever you see these "perfect numbers" they are codes. God does not chose who comes unto Christ or repents, we chose, so why would we get perfected numbers as such? God not only uses numbers, but when He times these numbers by other such numbers He is giving us added emphasis. And so, you say I questioned God "word so to speak" or something to that effect, but that's not the case, I just understand how its written and why its written in such ways. EXAMPLES BELOW:

So a question, is the real number of Jews saved 144,000, the 7000 seen in 1 Kings 19:18 or the 1/3 as seen in Zechariah 13:8-9 ? It can nor be all three unless two are codes because one is a ratio and that has to be a truth, the other two has to be codes because 7000 and 144,000 do not add up to the same numbers, of course. So, God's use of numbers in the old testament is well documented, lets list some, 6 is the number of Man, 7 means Divine Completion, 8 means New Beginnings, 10 means Completion, 12 means Fulness. So, when we use these numbers correctly we can see the code, just like "the Woman" in Rev. 12.

7000 = 7 x 10 x 10 x 10 or All Israel who repents (Divine Completion x Completion)

144,000 = 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 or All Israel who repents (Fulness x Completion)

So, both numbers are simple codes anyone understanding God's word should be able to solve. Thus both can and are correct, and thus now we can look up the 1/3 in Zech. 13:8-9 and understand that us living these end times we can see how many that is likely to be with 10 million Jews living in Israel and 15 million living world wide, that means that 3-5 million Jews = the 1/3 ratio. Thus all three are correct, because two are codes, because God was never going to give Satan any real info to plan for, the ratio 1/3 can't be known until you live in the very end times.

So, what you really see is a guy called to prophesy for a very long time, who understands it via hard work, prayer and of course divine revelation by the holy spirit because of course we can not understand anything of our own doing, we are mere human beings, Amen. I didn't just say that about the 144,000 for no reason, I never do that brother. But of course you should question all things, else you (everyone in general) will accept anything, so its good to question all things, as God tells us to try all things. I could give zillions of examples, but a will only give a few, the Bride has 10 Virgins that represents the "Complete Church" and the "144,000" represents All Israel, not every Jew, but Israel as a nation is saved when the 1/3 repents. We see in Rev. 2:10 that Smyrna was told that they would have tribulation 10 days, but that means for the entire Church Age, and John 16:33 tells us this Jesus says in the world we will always have tribulation. Lastly, this is key to understanding who the 10 kings/horns are in Daniel 7:7-8, in Revelation, and the 10 toes of Dan. 2, if you are looking for 10 you will never see it coming, the 10 arise out of the fourth beasts head and THEN (later amidst them) the Little Horn arises amongst them, well these 10 do not mean "10" it means the E.U. Completely Reunited as in 10, and then the Anti-Christ is born in the 10 (E.U.) and he is eligible to thus become the E.U. President. So, understanding how God uses numbers is very, very important. (Dan. 8:9 shows us which nation the Little Horn is born in, I have to rest a bit, my moms bedridden and I have to go over and check on her, but while I am gone I will give you a clue and see if you can understand what Nation he has to be born in by using "common sense direction". Read Dan. 8:9 and tells me where this man has to be born, remember, DIRECTION is key.

Too long, but its hard to explain what I know in short paragraphs, its complicated, which is why most do not understand prophecy, Daniel, Revelation etc. in full.

God bless, always ask the tough questions, that is you not just accepting things.

 

[Fisherking]

I did not see the woman on a mountain? She was in heaven.

No, Rev. 12:1-5 is John being shown a "SIGN IN HEAVEN" a Vision, of a Woman, with the Sun, Moon and 12 Stars at her feet. We have to identify all the players in the Rev. 12 prophecy via the codes given, the Dragon is Satan, the male child (not man child) is baby Jesus and the dragon via king Herod tried to kill him at his birth, thats why Mary & Joseph fled to Egypt. So, we just need to figure out who the Woman is and the Gen. 37:9 verse tells us Joseph had a dream in which the Sun (his father Jacob) the Moon (Rachel) and 11 stars bowed down unto him, heck thats why his brothers sold him into slavery.

So, the Woman is Israel, and Israel is on this earth, not in heaven. Israel flee unto the Petra/Bozrah area.

So why surround Jerusalem with armies?

Read Zech. 13:8-9, where we see that 1/3 repents whilst 2/3 refuse to do so and will be cut-off and die.

There is more to the harvest than Israel

That wasn't the overall point, the point was Rev. 14 is "The Harvest Chapter" and the 144,000 is Israel, which will have 3-5 million Jews who repents, not just a paltry 144,000.

There is a barley harvest in prophesy?

Of course, and Jesus uses the Three Harvest Festivals to show us things, which his disciples would have understood far better than us today, except we have modern computers and we can do deep dives. But they knew off hand what he meant, that is why he used these demonstrations and parables.

Not really a day is a day unless it is in the context of a period of time such as the day of the Lord.

Mmm, no Daniel shows us that his 70 weeks were timed by 7 and thus 490 years or 70 x 7, so its not 490 days is it? It represents 490 years. Is the 70th week 7 days or 7 years? That answers your question.

Even if seven years was supposed to really mean seven days, who says that we are Raptured seven years to the day till the end of the tribulation? Maybe. Maybe not

It will be because Israel's AGREEMENT (Covenant) starts it all in motion, and they have one week left.

Too bad you wave so many things away or I might be tempted to look at your theories.

I do not do theories. Not my bag.

The Bride also chooses Jesus or she would not be saved or the Bride.

That happens later, but God calls us first right? The Holy Spirit beckons us. Plus its Jesus' words.

There also will be wine at the marriage supper in heaven.

Look up Betrothal, it means (basically) engagement. So, this is not the Marriage Super, but that's later on, back on earth anyway.

At the wedding rewards and crowns are given out.

You are cutting off parts. The "Jewish Wedding" means this, this and this is spoken about like this, this and this, it is not the actual wedding in heaven. So, use the proper context, you did the same thing in the next one. You can't change the context without me knowing what you did brother, come on.

We are cleansed by the blood of Jesus

Now, THINK a minute, Jesus had not yet been killed when he was teaching his Disciples this, he's using the Jewish Wedding Customs to teach them, therefore the Baptism in the holy spirit is like unto the purification process of a Jewish Bride. If you grasp it or can't grasp it fine, but do nit change the meaning.

WE are in that house in heaven at the marriage supper

The Super is on earth, I mean Jesus calls Armageddon a Feast, after saying its time for the Marriage Super, and somehow that escapes you. It is what it is I guess.

I prefer really eating and a celebration in heaven, thanks

I do not think God needs permission to have the Marriage Super on earth.

 

[truthpls]

No, Rev. 12:1-5 is John being shown a "SIGN IN HEAVEN" a Vision, of a Woman, with the Sun, Moon and 12 Stars at her feet. We have to identify all the players in the Rev. 12 prophecy via the codes given, the Dragon is Satan, the male child (not man child) is baby Jesus and the dragon via king Herod tried to kill him at his birth, thats why Mary & Joseph fled to Egypt. So, we just need to figure out who the Woman is and the Gen. 37:9 verse tells us Joseph had a dream in which the Sun (his father Jacob) the Moon (Rachel) and 11 stars bowed down unto him, heck thats why his brothers sold him into slavery.

The scene is in heaven, where also the throne of God is. Also there are 12, not 11 stars, and the moon is not Rachel nor the sun Jacob here. But whoever the woman was, it included Israel. It also covered the past when Jesus was born so it is no ordinary woman. It also covers the time of the tribulation. It does seem to be Israel.

So, the Woman is Israel, and Israel is on this earth, not in heaven. Israel flee unto the Petra/Bozrah area.

Why restrict the wilderness to that little area?

Read Zech. 13:8-9, where we see that 1/3 repents whilst 2/3 refuse to do so and will be cut-off and die.

I know

That wasn't the overall point, the point was Rev. 14 is "The Harvest Chapter" and the 144,000 is Israel, which will have 3-5 million Jews who repents, not just a paltry 144,000.

The 144,000 are selected Jews from the twelve tribes that have a ministry in the Tribulation, not all Jews that get saved. They have the seal of God in them and are protected till the end of the tribulation by God, to finish their job of witnessing to the world.

"
The futurist approach, which we consider the best, interprets the 144,000 literally. When taken at face value, Revelation 7:4 seems to speak of 144,000 actual people living during the end-times tribulation. Nothing in the passage leads to interpreting the 144,000 as anything but a literal number of Jews—12,000 taken from every tribe of the children of Israel, according to verses 5–8.

These 144,000 Jews are “sealed,” which means they have the special protection of God. They are kept safe from the divine judgments and from the wrath of the Antichrist. They can freely perform their mission during the tribulation. It had been previously prophesied that Israel would repent and turn back to God (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25–27), and the 144,000 Jews seem to be a sort of “first fruits” (Revelation 14:4) of that redeemed Israel. Their mission seems to be to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period. As a result of their ministry, millions—“a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9)—will come to faith in Christ."

Who are the 144,000? | GotQuestions.org

Who are the 144,000? Is 144,000 a limit to the number of people God will allow into the New Heaven? Are the 144,000 (144.000) end times witnesses for Christ?

www.gotquestions.org

Of course, and Jesus uses the Three Harvest Festivals to show us things, which his disciples would have understood far better than us today, except we have modern computers and we can do deep dives. But they knew off hand what he meant, that is why he used these demonstrations and parables.

Since the things you mentioned were not correct in some areas, you can't blame his disciples understood that way. Nor can you claim any deep dive today that cooked up the wrong answer was any good.

Mmm, no Daniel shows us that his 70 weeks were timed by 7 and thus 490 years or 70 x 7, so its not 490 days is it? It represents 490 years. Is the 70th week 7 days or 7 years? That answers your question.

It was as I said groups of seven years. So 490 years is 490 x 360 days.

It will be because Israel's AGREEMENT (Covenant) starts it all in motion, and they have one week left.

God starts it and in that time there is a covenant for seven years. That does not mean the Rapture also does not happen around the same time the seven years start.

Look up Betrothal, it means (basically) engagement. So, this is not the Marriage Super, but that's later on, back on earth anyway.

Is there a betrothal mentioned in the scene in heaven?

You are cutting off parts. The "Jewish Wedding" means this, this and this is spoken about like this, this and this, it is not the actual wedding in heaven. So, use the proper context, you did the same thing in the next one. You can't change the context without me knowing what you did brother, come on.

Who says Heaven is bound by Jewish tradition? From the Greek the meaning of the word marriage in Rev 19 is this


Thayer's

1. a wedding or marriage festival, a wedding banquet, a wedding feast
2. marriage, matrimony

Strong's
Of uncertain affinity; nuptials: - marriage, wedding.

Mounce's
wedding banquet (a festive time in the community)


A festive celebration is heaven beats some grotesque smelly morbid scene with birds plucking eyeballs of dead people out.

Now, THINK a minute, Jesus had not yet been killed when he was teaching his Disciples this, he's using the Jewish Wedding Customs to teach them, therefore the Baptism in the holy spirit is like unto the purification process of a Jewish Bride. If you grasp it or can't grasp it fine, but do nit change the meaning.

What verse are you talking about?

The Super is on earth, I mean Jesus calls Armageddon a Feast, after saying its time for the Marriage Super, and somehow that escapes you. It is what it is I guess.

The scene was explicitly in heaven. The opening of heaven to come to earth is after that

I do not think God needs permission to have the Marriage Super on earth.

Nor did He say that was where it will be

 

[Timtofly]

No, that sounds like complete nonsense. Paul describes what will come at that point is "sudden destruction". How can sudden destruction be stretched out over a thousand years? The destruction that will occur when the day of the Lord arrives will be global and result in the entire earth being burned up (2 Peter 3:10-12). The idea of mortal life continuing on the earth after that point is laughable.

The destruction is not stretched out over the Day of the Lord.

Why turn Scripture into something it does not even say. It is the coming that causes destruction, not the Day of the Lord.

I never mentioned the idea of mortal life continuing in the Day of the Lord. That is what the destruction is for prior to the Day of the Lord. Now who enjoys making up strawman arguments? You sure know how to make up jokes to laugh at.

The coming of the thousand years ends the 6,000 years of Adam's punishment. There is no more sin and wickedness in those thousand years called the Day of the Lord. God has allowed sin to reign for 6 days.

Exodus 20:9-11

"Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

The Great Tribulation is the Coming of Jesus Christ, but the Day of the Lord is God's longsuffering. Or in this case a thousand year rest after man's 6,000 years of labor brought on by Adam's disobedience. Allowing creation to rest a thousand years is just as important to God as putting up with sin and wickedness for 6,000 years. So why do you all rush God and want it all over in a blink of an eye? Seems you miss the whole point of God's longsuffering. Yes, God can do instantly what humans think would take thousands or even billions of years, but in Scripture symbolic days equal literal time, to point out God's longsuffering. The longsuffering is for us not for God.

BTW: sudden means without warning and unexpected, not just quickly.

"occurring or done quickly and unexpectedly or without warning."

The destruction will be quick and immediate. No one will be prepared, except Satan. How do you think life gets back to some sort of normality?

"And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."

The Second Coming will consume all the works on the earth in a sudden baptism of fire. Do you think they are just symbolically gone? Jesus is not the one who heals human government. Satan has 10 horns working for him, that will help restore that 6th kingdom; literally the whole earth destroyed and all the works burned up.

There is literally no preparing for that sudden destruction on the individual level. Having the second birth is the only preparation one can have. No one can pretend to be who they are not, to save themselves.

 

[Timtofly]

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

Is there a problem with the point the last days have covered the last 2 millennia?

This is not a one time event. This is an ongoing phenomenon since Peter wrote that thought. Life has pretty much been the same over the last 2 thousand years as the previous thousands of years. Peter was pointing out to those even in his time, that there was a Flood that destroyed the heavens and earth, resulting in a new heavens and earth. Yet you think there will not be a new heavens and earth like after the Flood. You move on directly to Revelation 21. Heaven and earth did not pass away at the Flood, nor will they pass away at the Fire of 2 Peter 3. No one knows when they will pass away. Certainly Peter was not declaring their passing away, but their destruction similar to the Flood, this time with fire instead of water.

We don't know 2 things. We don't know when the Second Coming will happen. We don't know when heaven and earth will pass away. But we should know the baptism of fire is not heaven and earth passing away. Because God is longsuffering. He is not finished with this creation at the Second Coming. There is still the Day of the Lord. There have been scoffers for the last 2 days. That does not mean the 3rd day, the Day of the Lord won't happen.

 

[AYM]

The things span many years. The end of the things is Jesus returning right after the tribulation. Before that the fleeing once they see the abomination. Before the at gospel being preached and love waxing cold. Before that false prophets all over, and before that families betraying one another and hating each other. Before that getting delivered to the justice system and arrested and killed. Also being hated worldwide by nations. Before that wars and famines and pestilences and earthquakes in many places. These happen after some previous signs but Jesus had said the end was not yet for them.
Thankfully in the bible we have more than one passage where things are spoken about so we do not need to be confused. In Mat 24 it says when leaves start we know summer is near, like the signs start, and we know it is near. To clarify this another gospel spells it out for you

Luke 21:28
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

So when is our redemption near? When signs start. That means the Rapture, our redemption is near the start of the signs not the end!

But when all the things are finished we know that the kingdom is coming to earth.

Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

The Rapture then, OUR redemption is near when we START to see the signs.
His return to earth and the kingdom coming is at the end of all these things.

It's been a few days, but let me come back here to this.

The rapture gets closer every day, and the things we see in the Olivet Discourse illustrate all the things that happen before the rapture occurs. Unless I missed it in all of the posts above, you still need to show where there is a second rapture anywhere here in the Olivet Discourse. In all three accounts - Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, the rapture is the end.

Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are focused on the abomination of desolation and the surrounding tribulation as the central events of the Christian era. After these events we see the signs in the sky, and then the rapture.

Luke 21 is slightly different and focuses on a similar (but not the same IMHO) prophetic epoch called the "times of the Gentiles" which are fulfilled when Jerusalem is no longer trodden under by the Gentiles (Luke 21:24). Luke 21:20 covers the sacking of Jerusalem at the hands of Titus and the Roman army, and Luke 21:24 makes mention of the dispersal of the Jews throughout the empire (and world) and their captivity/enslavement after the Simon bar Kochba rebellion (who was also one of the false Christs mentioned in the Discourse). In 1967, Jerusalem was no longer under the control of Gentiles, meaning that, where we stand in time now, Luke 21:24 is fulfilled. We're just waiting for Luke 21:25-27.

 

[truthpls]

It's been a few days, but let me come back here to this.

The rapture gets closer every day, and the things we see in the Olivet Discourse illustrate all the things that happen before the rapture occurs. Unless I missed it in all of the posts above, you still need to show where there is a second rapture anywhere here in the Olivet Discourse. In all three accounts - Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, the rapture is the end.

No, what you thought was the Rapture was long after the Rapture. It is the second coming in the passages you cite

Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are focused on the abomination of desolation and the surrounding tribulation as the central events of the Christian era. After these events we see the signs in the sky, and then the rapture.

No, after the tribulation is Jesus returning to earth. The Rapture before the last seven years.

Luke 21 is slightly different and focuses on a similar (but not the same IMHO) prophetic epoch called the "times of the Gentiles" which are fulfilled when Jerusalem is no longer trodden under by the Gentiles (Luke 21:24).

That means after the tribulation

Luke 21:20 covers the sacking of Jerusalem at the hands of Titus and the Roman army,

No, desolation mentioned in that verse means this

Thayer's

1. a making desolate, desolation

Sound familiar? Heard of the abomination that maketh desolate

and Luke 21:24 makes mention of the dispersal of the Jews throughout the empire (and world) and their captivity/enslavement after the Simon bar Kochba rebellion (who was also one of the false Christs mentioned in the Discourse).

Nope, sorry. The end of the times of the gentiles is the end of the tribulation. Not ancient history

In 1967, Jerusalem was no longer under the control of Gentiles, meaning that, where we stand in time now, Luke 21:24 is fulfilled. We're just waiting for Luke 21:25-27.

No. Jerusalem is still trodden by gentiles.

 

[Fisherking]

The scene is in heaven, where also the throne of God is. Also there are 12, not 11 stars, and the moon is not Rachel nor the sun Jacob here. But whoever the woman was, it included Israel. It also covered the past when Jesus was born so it is no ordinary woman. It also covers the time of the tribulation. It does seem to be Israel.

I don't think you get that there are three heavens (maybe you do), our Atmosphere, this Universe and God's Heaven. I have been called unto prophecy many years, so when I tell you John saw these visions, he was on earth but taken up in the spirit, go read Rev. 15:1 that sign was also "in Heaven", they all were. But in Gen. 37:9 there is 11 stars for a reason, you can not bow down to yourself !! Its a given Joseph is being bowed down unto, he is the 12th star, it is Israel, code solved. Yes, as I stated it gave us the players of the End Time Prophecy by showing us past events, BUT.........the Prophesy was about the end times, not the past. It is about when Israel repent at the 1335, flees at the 1290 and is protected at the 1260. (Hence 1260 days of protection).

Why restrict the wilderness to that little area?

Because we know where they flee unto, its not a small area. It is the Central and Southern Jordan Mountains. Dan. 11:40-43 tells us it is Ammon, Moab and Edom. The Petra area has a natural fortification and those mountains also have a sort of "sheep fold" or a place where a herder could make sure his sheep were protected, and in Isaiah Jesus returns from Bozrah with blood stained hands (meaning he slays their enemies in the wine-press of God's wrath.

This is not a small area. Just think all the mountains in the Central & Southern Jordan region.

The 144,000 are selected Jews from the twelve tribes that have a ministry in the Tribulation, not all Jews that get saved. They have the seal of God in them and are protected till the end of the tribulation by God, to finish their job of witnessing to the world.

God was not going to passing out unto Satan true end time info, the Woman = Israel, the 144,000 = Israel. If ever I explain the sequences in the book of Revelation to you it will become clear why this has to be. If I told you the Seals are not judgments and that God's wrath only starts with the 1st Trump, in Rev. 8, and thus the 144,000 as seen then in Rev. 7 getting "Sealed by God" it would make more sense who they actually are when one understand the timing of everything. So, since Israel repents just before the DOTL hits in Zech. 14:1, we can match up Rev 8 with that passage and Rev 7 with them repenting in Zech. 13:8-9

Yes, only 1/3 repent. From all 12 tribes, there was never any lost tribes. Nowhere does it say the 144,000 are Super Preachers that is a myth. I ask people to find it, they can't its a passed down myth/legend. They need protection by God, and God also says hurt not the Earth, Sea nor Trees until we have them sealed (Saved and Protected). Super being do nit need protecting, these are men, women and children. We the church are 10 Virgin Brides, we are not virgins, mostly, neither are they.

The futurist approach, which we consider the best, interprets the 144,000 literally. When taken at face value, Revelation 7:4 seems to speak of 144,000 actual people living during the end-times tribulation. Nothing in the passage leads to interpreting the 144,000 as anything but a literal number of Jews—12,000 taken from every tribe of the children of Israel, according to verses 5–8.

Just like the "10" virgins equals the complete bride, the 144,000 stands in for Israel. Why is is we can't see that "Perfect Numbers" never fit in God's plan unless you assume God choses those who get saved which is merely Calvinism. Israel came back as the Whole House of Israel, no tribes were lost, so when God gives us these perfect numbers its always a code. Understanding that this happens just before the DOTL (Rev. 8) is very a important aspect to the book of Revelations chronological order, only Rev. 8, 9 and 16 are God's Wrath, and in that order.

These 144,000 Jews are “sealed,” which means they have the special protection of God. They are kept safe from the divine judgments and from the wrath of the Antichrist. They can freely perform their mission during the tribulation. It had been previously prophesied that Israel would repent and turn back to God (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25–27), and the 144,000 Jews seem to be a sort of “first fruits” (Revelation 14:4) of that redeemed Israel. Their mission seems to be to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period. As a result of their ministry, millions—“a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9)—will come to faith in Christ."

We are sealed, by the Holy Spirit. That what that means, you see the Two-witnesses are sent back BEFORE the DOTL (Malachi 4:5) and they are also the 1335 of Dan 12. Their job is to get Israel to repent before God's wrath falls, that way they can flee at the 1290, which happens 30 days before the A.C. conquers Israel at the 1260. Try looking real close, God is (THINK NOW) Holding up the Wrath which (Four Winds) which hurts the Earth, Sea and Trees, and all that means is Rev. 8, which if we read we can see hurts the Earth, Sea and Trees. So, they need protection, which is what happens in the Petra/Bozrah area. You see, its not a strange understanding you have, I hade the same one for 30 years. In the las 7 or 8 years sine my health problems slowed me down, I have been praying for clarity and wisdom on all things. When I asked God why the church was so confused today when we should have all the answers via an end time blessing I was told by the Holy Spirit, "You guys already know it all", so needless to say I started taking 2nd looks at many, many things.

They are indeed kept safe, but their Mission is survival, Jesus needs Jews left in order to set up his coming promised Kingdom Age, which is why they are protected but the Gentiles who repent during the 70th week will be Martyrs. Those seen in Rev. 7:9-16 are the Pre Trib Raptured Church, in Heaven.

Since the things you mentioned were not correct in some areas, you can't blame his disciples understood that way. Nor can you claim any deep dive today that cooked up the wrong answer was any good.

You can't just say that without pointing out what, because if you are speaking about Daniels weeks I have a blog showing everything about it. My point was days are not always days and weeks not always weeks. I am speaking as per unto how prophecy works overall, so I was making an off handed point. So, if that is not it (and I am correct, days in prophecy many times are not days) you need to name your claim so I can rebut your misunderstandings.

It was as I said groups of seven years. So 490 years is 490 x 360 days.

Who cares overall? I was pointing out that Prophecy has substitute timing all the time. I wasn't even trying to be tat specific, just saying the obvious. Since I have a blog on Daniel's 70th week that 8 years old or so, I understand exactly what t means. The better point would be why are you even trying to deny God uses years for days, and 7 x other things. Do you know why Daniel is time 7? There is a Law in Leviticus that says when Israel refuses to repent (70 years in Babylon) their sins will be timed by 7, so the 7 x 7 is because Israel refused to repent in Babylon, not only that but many wanted to remain in Babylon. I have the law written down etc. etc.

God starts it and in that time there is a covenant for seven years. That does not mean the Rapture also does not happen around the same time the seven years start.

God starts nothing, the Dan. 9:27 passage says who starts it, the Covenant (Agreement) for 7 years is between the prince to come (A.C.) and Israel, the A.C. will be the E.U. President. God then is angry at Israel and His anger rekindled.

Is there a betrothal mentioned in the scene in heaven?

The Betrothal is when we come unto Christ Jesus.

Who says Heaven is bound by Jewish tradition? From the Greek the meaning of the word marriage in Rev 19 is this

Because Jesus taught it that way.

What verse are you talking about?

Its the principle teaching of the Baptism, its PURIFICARTION, Jesus taught us to be Baptized. I am only tying it together for you, we all know Jesus taught to be baptized in water. I am telling you how it fits in and what these teachings meant in the bigger picture.

The scene was explicitly in heaven. The opening of heaven to come to earth is after that

The Feast is on earth, you grasping that or not grasping it I can't change.

Nor did He say that was where it will be

Yes, the Kings are THE FEAST. What part of that doesn't add up brother?

 

[truthpls]

I don't think you get that there are three heavens (maybe you do), our Atmosphere, this Universe and God's Heaven.

And which heaven did you think the throne of God and angels were?

I have been called unto prophecy many years, so when I tell you John saw these visions, he was on earth but taken up in the spirit,

Taken up to heaven

go read Rev. 15:1 that sign was also "in Heaven", they all were. But in Gen. 37:9 there is 11 stars for a reason, you can not bow down to yourself !! Its a given Joseph is being bowed down unto, he is the 12th star, it is Israel, code solved. Yes, as I stated it gave us the players of the End Time Prophecy by showing us past events, BUT.........the Prophesy was about the end times, not the past. It is about when Israel repent at the 1335, flees at the 1290 and is protected at the 1260. (Hence 1260 days of protection).

Better to be clear rather than throwing out numbers. Israel gets saved around the time Jesus returns to earth.

Because we know where they flee unto, its not a small area. It is the Central and Southern Jordan Mountains. Dan. 11:40-43 tells us it is Ammon, Moab and Edom.

That tells us about a battle where those countries escape being invaded. That does not tell all the places that are wilderness that the believers fled to.

The Petra area has a natural fortification and those mountains also have a sort of "sheep fold" or a place where a herder could make sure his sheep were protected, and in Isaiah Jesus returns from Bozrah with blood stained hands (meaning he slays their enemies in the wine-press of God's wrath.

Could be that some go there. I wouldn't get too excited that that is the only place though. Even a main place.

This is not a small area. Just think all the mountains in the Central & Southern Jordan region.

I don't recall a verse saying they all flee strictly on foot? What if, for example, some air travel was waiting for them in a few places away from Jerusalem, say in Jordan? Why pretend it has to be some narrow little way?

God was not going to passing out unto Satan true end time info, the Woman = Israel, the 144,000 = Israel. If ever I explain the sequences in the book of Revelation to you it will become clear why this has to be. If I told you the Seals are not judgments and that God's wrath only starts with the 1st Trump, in Rev. 8, and thus the 144,000 as seen then in Rev. 7 getting "Sealed by God" it would make more sense who they actually are when one understand the timing of everything.

The 144,000 are selected Jews sealed and protected to witness in the tribulation. Nothing more. As for the seals that is when the four horsemen ride and the famines and plagues and death and war etc. Sorry that is part of the wrath of God. By the fifth seal we see millions (or whatever the number may be) of dead believers from the tribulation in heaven crying for vengeance. So there has already been worldwide persecution and death for believers.

So, since Israel repents just before the DOTL hits in Zech. 14:1,

Even back in Zech 12:3 it talked of that day actually and a lot happened in the next few chapters!

we can match up Rev 8 with that passage and Rev 7 with them repenting in Zech. 13:8-9

Actually if you want to match something explain it in your own words. Endless verses that have nothing to do with your theories or claims make for wasted time.

Yes, only 1/3 repent. From all 12 tribes, there was never any lost tribes. Nowhere does it say the 144,000 are Super Preachers that is a myth.

Says who? Look how many got saved by the end! Who did you think did a lot of that witnessing so it could happen?

I ask people to find it, they can't its a passed down myth/legend. They need protection by God, and God also says hurt not the Earth, Sea nor Trees until we have them sealed (Saved and Protected). Super being do nit need protecting, these are men, women and children. We the church are 10 Virgin Brides, we are not virgins, mostly, neither are they.

We are only protected after God protects us, not because we are 'super'

Just like the "10" virgins equals the complete bride, the 144,000 stands in for Israel.

A parable is a parable. A highly specific prophesy is something else.

Why is is we can't see that "Perfect Numbers" never fit in God's plan unless you assume God choses those who get saved which is merely Calvinism.

We choose Him, and then we are the chosen.

Israel came back as the Whole House of Israel, no tribes were lost,

Who mentioned anything was lost but you?

so when God gives us these perfect numbers its always a code. Understanding that this happens just before the DOTL (Rev. 8) is very a important aspect to the book of Revelations chronological order, only Rev. 8, 9 and 16 are God's Wrath, and in that order.

Maybe be clear. What happens? 'this' doesn't cut it

We are sealed, by the Holy Spirit. That what that means,

If you are over in the end times, then we are in heaven already. Some of the folks still here get sealed.

you see the Two-witnesses are sent back BEFORE the DOTL (Malachi 4:5)

So? If they showed up an hour before the Rapture, that would be before the day of the Lord.

God starts nothing, the Dan. 9:27 passage says who starts it, the Covenant (Agreement) for 7 years is between the prince to come (A.C.) and Israel, the A.C. will be the E.U. President. God then is angry at Israel and His anger rekindled.

Who's wrath did you think it was? Nothing will start till He says go.

The Feast is on earth, you grasping that or not grasping it I can't change.

The bible says it was in heaven before heaven was opened and we came down to earth. Overruled

Yes, the Kings are THE FEAST. What part of that doesn't add up brother?

I don't share a cannibalistic grotesque morbid putrid view at all, sorry.

Some things I didn't address because when you err on the basics you get lost in space and muddled up and go off on tangents based on the original error etc etc.

 

[AYM]

@truthpls

... the quote feature didn't quite work right, so let me try to address these the long way.

No, what you thought was the Rapture was long after the Rapture. It is the second coming in the passages you cite

So where is this other rapture? Again, you need to demonstrate where this other rapture is. There is only ONE rapture here. Do you have a scripture that shows this other rapture taking place?

No, after the tribulation is Jesus returning to earth. The Rapture before the last seven years.

Glad we agree with the first part, the return of Christ is indeed after the Tribulation. There's no mention of a 7 year period here, or again, some rapture preceding it.

As far as the tribulation itself being 7 years ... that's not here in the text and I'd like to see proof of that.

That means after the tribulation

You just said that Jesus returns after the tribulation, how can the the time of the Gentiles end after the tribulation?

No, desolation mentioned in that verse means this

Thayer's

1. a making desolate, desolation

Sound familiar? Heard of the abomination that maketh desolate

So let's recap. Luke 21 is focused on a prophetic epoch called the "times of the Gentiles", as opposed to the "tribulation" which is the focus of Matthew 24. But don't confuse the abomination of desolation in Mark 24 and Luke 13 (which the text says Daniel spoke of and says "let the reader understand") with the desolation (note the absence of the word abomination and no reference to Daniel) in Luke 21 which is connected to the armies surrounding Jerusalem.

So to recap:

Matthew 21/Luke 13 - abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet/tribulation

Luke 21 - Jerusalem compassed with armies, desolation/times of the Gentiles

Now the abomination of desolation (spoken of by Daniel the prophet) is a very different thing than the desolation of the city caused by the Romans in 70AD and for this post I'd rather focus on the Times of the Gentiles.

Nope, sorry. The end of the times of the gentiles is the end of the tribulation. Not ancient history

It's a historic fact that Jerusalem was surrounded by the armies of Vespasian. Early church fathers documented (historically) that no Christians were caught up in this quagmire, because they understood Luke 21 and fled the city when the armies surrounded it. Afterward, again, it'sa historic fact that the city was devastated by Titus in 70 AD. These are historic, documented facts which show the fulfillment of scripture. Why look for some event in the far off future from 2023 (which this text doesn't even support) when it was already fulfilled over 1900 years ago (in the future from the point in time Christ gave this prophecy) right in our face?

No. Jerusalem is still trodden by gentiles.

I hope this is a joke. Who rules Jerusalem right here, right now? Jews. And they have since 1967 when it was taken from Gentiles.

2 Chronicles 36:17

Therefore he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave them all into his hand.

From the end of Zedekiah's reign (note in 2 Chr 36:21 that the land was desolate - yet another desolation proving once again there are multiple desolations) until 1967, Jerusalem was ruled over or dominated by various Gentile powers. As we know from history, Jerusalem was sacked in 70AD and depopulated by the Roman armies under Titus. It was later rebuilt, then sacked again and again by various Gentile forces, until Israel took the city in 1967. Miraculously, Gentiles now no longer controlled Jerusalem in any aspect, and thus the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled according to Luke 21:24.

We have a prophecy in scripture, and after the prophecy was given, we can see historically where it was fulfilled.

Now - let me ask you a question. Are you making an assumption that all eschatology must be fulfilled in the future from 2023AD? What's so special about where we exist in time as opposed to 70AD or any other point in time after Pentacost?

Rev 1:19

Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

The hereafter part? That's from the vantagepoint of John in the late 1st century/early 2nd century. There are plenty of historical events which took place between then and now which could qualify as "future" from John's viewpoint in history, but "past" from ours in 2023AD. The same could be said of other prophecies in the Bible - one of which is the Time of the Gentiles.

 

[truthpls]

So where is this other rapture?

There is a gathering in the air of all believers that most people call the Rapture. Believers are not appointed to the wrath of God so we leave before the last seven years begin. We return from heaven with Jesus at the end of those seven years where His angels gather tribulation believers from the 4 corners of the earth also to be with Him. Most people call that the return to earth of Jesus.

Glad we agree with the first part, the return of Christ is indeed after the Tribulation. There's no mention of a 7 year period here, or again, some rapture preceding it.

The Great Tribulation time is given in Daniel and Revelation and is exactly 3 1/2 years. That is in the middle of the last week or seven years of Daniel.

As far as the tribulation itself being 7 years ... that's not here in the text and I'd like to see proof of that.

The Great Tribulation is 3 1/2 years. The last seven years (week of Dan) is also called the tribulation by some or the time of Jacob's trouble.

You just said that Jesus returns after the tribulation, how can the the time of the Gentiles end after the tribulation?It ends when He comes. Immediately after the tribulation of those days as Jesus phrased it.

So let's recap. Luke 21 is focused on a prophetic epoch called the "times of the Gentiles", as opposed to the "tribulation" which is the focus of Matthew 24.

No, like Mat 24 all sorts of end time things are listed. It is just mentioned that the days of tribulation or vengeance ends with the times of the gentiles ending.

But don't confuse the abomination of desolation in Mark 24 and Luke 13 (which the text says Daniel spoke of and says "let the reader understand") with the desolation (note the absence of the word abomination and no reference to Daniel) in Luke 21 which is connected to the armies surrounding Jerusalem.

No, Luke 13 is also about the end as solidly evidenced in the verse in Luke 13 than pinpoints it.

Luke 13:35
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
The time when Israel says Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord is only when they get saved in the end when He also comes back to earth.

So to recap:

Matthew 21/Luke 13 - abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet/tribulation

Luke 21 - Jerusalem compassed with armies, desolation/times of the Gentiles

In that end time a lot happens such as Jerusalem being surrounded by armies. In fact the battle of Armageddon is just that.

Now the abomination of desolation (spoken of by Daniel the prophet) is a very different thing than the desolation of the city caused by the Romans in 70AD and for this post I'd rather focus on the Times of the Gentiles.

No kidding. The end is the end and not history

It's a historic fact that Jerusalem was surrounded by the armies of Vespasian.

So what? They never said Blessed is Jesus at that time now did they? It was surrounded many times.

Early church fathers documented (historically) that no Christians were caught up in this quagmire, because they understood Luke 21 and fled the city when the armies surrounded it.

Escape or not, they were wrong if that rumor is true. But if I was there at the time, just to be safe, I would flee also!

Afterward, again, it'sa historic fact that the city was devastated by Titus in 70 AD. These are historic, documented facts which show the fulfillment of scripture. Why look for some event in the far off future from 2023 (which this text doesn't even support) when it was already fulfilled over 1900 years ago (in the future from the point in time Christ gave this prophecy) right in our face?

That fulfilled squat. No Jesus returning, no Israel getting saved none of the events of the last seven years etc etc

I hope this is a joke. Who rules Jerusalem right here, right now? Jews. And they have since 1967 when it was taken from Gentiles.

They can't even pray on the temple mount!

2 Chronicles 36:17

Therefore he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave them all into his hand.

From the end of Zedekiah's reign (note in 2 Chr 36:21 that the land was desolate - yet another desolation proving once again there are multiple desolations) until 1967, Jerusalem was ruled over or dominated by various Gentile powers.

Irrelevant there was no antichrist, seals,trumpets, etc etc etc etc. History is history.

As we know from history, Jerusalem was sacked in 70AD and depopulated by the Roman armies under Titus. It was later rebuilt, then sacked again and again by various Gentile forces, until Israel took the city in 1967. Miraculously, Gentiles now no longer controlled Jerusalem in any aspect, and thus the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled according to Luke 21:24.

No, the city is spiritually called Sodom by God and all heaven (and me)! Oh and by the way, here is the actual definition of Gentiles

"
Thayer's

1. a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or living together
   1. a company, troop, swarm
2. a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus
   1. the human family
3. a tribe, nation, people group
4. in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles
5. Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians

Interlinear Search for 'Luke 21:24' - NAS with the BHS and NA26 - StudyLight.org

You do realize Israel is a nation NOT worshiping the true God??! Seriously.

Now - let me ask you a question. Are you making an assumption that all eschatology must be fulfilled in the future from 2023AD? What's so special about where we exist in time as opposed to 70AD or any other point in time after Pentacost?

No, the prophesy of not one stone upon another in the temple remaining for example. That was fulfilled and history. Most prophesy is now history. What is unique about the last years (day of the Lord) is that it is the actual wrath of God and unlike any other period of time past or future!

The hereafter part? That's from the vantagepoint of John in the late 1st century/early 2nd century. There are plenty of historical events which took place between then and now which could qualify as "future" from John's viewpoint in history, but "past" from ours in 2023AD. The same could be said of other prophecies in the Bible - one of which is the Time of the Gentiles.

Not when it is clearly about that day of the Lord leading up to His coming and beyond. That has specific seals and signs and trumpets and events.

 

[Fisherking]

And which heaven did you think the throne of God and angels were?

That's the point, Satan lives in the 2nd Heaven.

Taken up to heaven

John was taken up and shown things in the other two heavens. We have to know which one he is speaking about in each instance. For instance the fouls of the heaven in Rev. 19 is our atmosphere.

Better to be clear rather than throwing out numbers. Israel gets saved around the time Jesus returns to earth.

Emmm, no he doesn't, if you do not understand a numbers meaning just ask, most don't tbh on the 1290 and 1335. The DOTL starts in the exact middle of the 70th week at the 1260 (Dan. 12:7 time, times and 1/2) and as we can clearly see in Zech. 13:8-9 (why do you think I use it so much? its KEY) Israel's 1/3 repent, then in the very next verse, in Zech. 14:1 the DOYL arrives, then in vs. 2 Jerusalem is sacked, then in vs. 3 Jesus shows up and defeats the wicked. So, Israel repents BEFORE the DOTL starts. Question: How else would they know to flee Judea? Jews do not read Matt. 24:15-21. I Malachi 4:5 we are told, Elijah is sent back before the great and terrible day of the Lord to turn Israel back unto God. That's why they flee Judea at the 1290 AoD. Israel has to come unto God just like us, by faith alone.

That tells us about a battle where those countries escape being invaded. That does not tell all the places that are wilderness that the believers fled to.

I know prophecy, maybe more than you understand since you have barley chatted with me a bit. Dan. 11:40-43 is the play by play battle where the Anti-Christ conquers Israel and THE MANY (Dan. 8:25 and Dan. 9:27) and he conquers the entire Mediterranean Sea Coastline, not just Israel, he is a Beast after all.

Could be that some go there. I wouldn't get too excited that that is the only place though. Even a main place.

That is where Israel flees. I am not just guessing. This is a well known fact.

I don't recall a verse saying they all flee strictly on foot? What if, for example, some air travel was waiting for them in a few places away from Jerusalem, say in Jordan? Why pretend it has to be some narrow little way?

They have 30 days to get to that safe zone, by camel, by foot, by car, by horse, by bus, who cares, I never stated how they got there, some may fly in, but they can't fly to that area. But the truth is, like Hitler's reign, people saw ahead of time what was coming, by the time it gets here, after the pre trin rapture, I think most Jews elsewhere in the world will have moved to Israel, however, 2/3 will refuse to repent and perish anyway. God tells us where they flee. Its all throughout the bible.

The 144,000 are selected Jews sealed and protected to witness in the tribulation. Nothing more. As for the seals that is when the four horsemen ride and the famines and plagues and death and war etc. Sorry that is part of the wrath of God. By the fifth seal we see millions (or whatever the number may be) of dead believers from the tribulation in heaven crying for vengeance. So there has already been worldwide persecution and death for believers.

The 144,000 is a code for all Israel who repents, it mystifies me how grown men can understand the 10 virgins stand for the COMPLETE Church, but then can't understand a simple code of 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 means Fulness x Completeness. God IS NOT CHOSING perfect numbers of human being to save, you are kidding yourself. Its what you have learned so you auto lean into it. Remember my answered prayer? "You guys already know it all" That's why we can't see what God is trying to show us. Ideas which came from men, block us from seeing God's truths.

As per the Seals, if one listens, and doesn't block it out, it becomes obvious the Seals are not wrath. Look at this Seven Sealed Scroll below, it can not be read until all 7 wax signet seals have been loosed.

Kings of old placed a Wax seal by using a signet ring that only they had, if anyone broke the sealed message they knew the message had been compromised, they would usually place three signet seals on a letter, if one got accidently loosed so be it, but all three had to be loosed before a message could be read, this is the picture Jesus is trying to give us here, he has 7 Wax Signet Ring Seals on this scroll, meaning it is Completely and Divinely sealed and no one is going to ever see any of this until the 7th Seal is loosed. This is why the 7th Seal is over in Rev. 8 with the Trumpet judgments.

So, in heaven, amongst us the Church/Bride of Christ, Jesus starts opening this scroll which will bring God's judgments and wrath. As Jesus opens each Seal he prophesies what they will see when the 7th seal is finally loosed, he prophesies about a man going forth conquering (White horses stands for conquering), then Jesus opens the second seal and prophesies about the same man bringing wars and taking away peace and we know this will last 42 months. Then with the third seal Jesus foretells that this mans wars will bring 42 months of famine. With the fourth seal Jesus prophesies that same man will bring 42 months of death, sickness and the grave (Hades). Finally Jesus prophesies of 42 months of this man killing the gentiles who repent (Martyrs) he can't get at the Jews who repented.

Now we see why the Sixth Seal matches the Fourth Trump

Jesus now opens the sixth seal, he prophesies about God's coming 42 months of wrath that will fall once the 7th seal has been opened. He tells how the sun, moon and stars will go dark be darkened, and the moon will become blood, and about a great earthquake. This has not happened yet, just like Joel 2:31 of old, this is a Prophesy which is soon to come, when Jesus opens the 7th seal. The sixth seal can be seen in Rev. 6:12-13. It Matches the Joel prophecy, but both point to the Rev. 8 Fourth Trump seen in Rev. 8:12.

So, why does the sun and moon go dim/dark and the moon turn blood red? Thats easy, the Rev. 8 Trumps.

Trump # 1 sees an Asteroid breaking apart somewhat, thats what burned Sodom, they have found the sulfur balls intact in the Dead Sea, the ones on the ground never, ever stop burning. So, Trump #1 will bring fire to 1/3 of the world (think New World). Then we will see this asteroid make impact, that will of course e a great shaking, like an Earthquake as it hits in the Pacific Ocean just off the California coast, which is where Apophis will hit if it hits, (it will hit on April 13, 2029). Then Trump #3 is the Fallout, or Wormwood, whatever it is that poisons the rivers in the 1/3 area (North & South America imho) is what wormwood means, bitter, poison. Then finally after all those millions and millions of trees burnings, which will burn hoses etc. etc. we see the sun and moons light is dimmed by 1/3 or gets dark, well of course it does, the smoke will get up in the jet stream and go all around the world. And think of how a fire in California is now, it makes things glow red from afar, will that is why the moon will appear to be blood red, it will have a blood red hue to it.

The above is God's Wrath, the 6th Seal only points unto this via a prophetic utterance by Jesus

In between God opening the first 6 seals and the 7th seal what do we see? God showing us Israel getting saved in Rev. 7 (144,000) and they are men, woman and children, just like the 10 virgins represent men, woman and children, and the virgin simply refers to us being in Christ Jesus, and it is the same with those Jews saved. And we are shown the church in heaven in Rev. 7:9-16.

Now we get to God's Wrath, the 7th seal is opened, there is silence in heaven, you know why? The Scroll can now be read from, God's Wrath is at hand, the angels take no joy in what must be done, its a sad, somber day, billion oh human being must be killed over the next 1260 days of God's wrath, but justice has to prevail. So, just like it repented God when He had to flood the whole world, there is somber silence in heaven for 30 minutes, then God's wrath will start falling.

Demonstration below of a closet door with 7 locks on it

So, let's say I had a 50th birthday and got a lot of nice gifts, I invited all of my friends over to have a bash. I placed all of my gifts in a closet and put 7 locks on the closet. As I started to show my friend the gifts I received by opening the 7 locks, I would foretell them of some of my gifts. I opened the first lock and foretold them of this beautiful leather backed bible my dad had gifted me. As I opened the second lock I foretold them about a nice harmonica someone had gifted me (lets skip ahead). As I opened the 6th lock I foretold my friends about a nice dress shirt my kids had gifted me. Guess what, there is only one lock left, the 7th lock (just like the 7th seal) and not a one of my friends have yet to see any of my gifts, I have only described unto them what they are soon to see, AFTER I finally open up the 7th lock (7th seal). So, as I open up the 7th lock do I need to further describe any of the gifts? No, just as Jesus was silent, nothing else needs to be said, the revealing is at hand. This is what Jesus does via the 7 Seals.

Seals 1-5 is about the coming Anti-Christs actions or rule on earth of a 42 month period of time. Seal #6 is about God's wrath over a 42 month period of time. The Anti-Christ will not e allowed to go forth conquering until God's wrath falls, so both cover the exact same 42 months. Now you know why so many people get confused and say the 7 Seal, 7 Trumps and 7 Vials all cover the exact same timeframe, well, there are only 7 judgment Trumps, the 7 Vials come out of the 7th Trump, it is the 3rd Woe. So, the make an honest mistake. The just do not understand the Seals only seal up God's scroll of wrath. Now we know what the 7 thunders in Rev. 10. means. All God's wrath emits from those 7 thunders.

You are correct, we see the Martyrs in Seal #5 but Jesus FOREKNOWS all of our thoughts, Jesus is foretelling us their hearts before they are even murdered !! And in Seal #6 when it tells us these men are hiding in caves, well, the wrath/asteroid has not yet fallen, again Jesus is merely foretelling us their hearts thoughts, just like he foreknew the Pharisees hearts.

THINK ON IT......Getting long so I better hit post.

 

[truthpls]

That's the point, Satan lives in the 2nd Heaven.

What point dealing with what? Be clear

John was taken up and shown things in the other two heavens. We have to know which one he is speaking about in each instance. For instance the fouls of the heaven in Rev. 19 is our atmosphere.

The throne of God is not in any other heaven so there is no need to wonder at all.

The DOTL starts in the exact middle of the 70th week at the 1260 (Dan. 12:7 time, times and 1/2)

No. The middle of the week is a time that will be known. The day of the Lord is a long period of time with many things in it. But it starts at an unknown time

1 Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night

and as we can clearly see in Zech. 13:8-9 (why do you think I use it so much? its KEY) Israel's 1/3 repent, then in the very next verse, in Zech. 14:1 the DOYL arrives, then in vs. 2 Jerusalem is sacked, then in vs. 3 Jesus shows up and defeats the wicked. So, Israel repents BEFORE the DOTL starts.

Zechariah 13:9
And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.
No. That is ALL IN the day of the Lord. LOTS happens in that time including Israel getting saved and Jesus returning and the millennium etc. You have misplaced where it starts.

Question: How else would they know to flee Judea?

Who are 'they' be clear. Are you in history or the end of days?

Jews do not read Matt. 24:15-21. I Malachi 4:5 we are told, Elijah is sent back before the great and terrible day of the Lord to turn Israel back unto God. That's why they flee Judea at the 1290 AoD. Israel has to come unto God just like us, by faith alone.

Say what? They do not flee because the two witnesses show up. They are too flee when they see the abomination set up.

I know prophecy, maybe more than you understand since you have barley chatted with me a bit. Dan. 11:40-43 is the play by play battle where the Anti-Christ conquers Israel and THE MANY (Dan. 8:25 and Dan. 9:27) and he conquers the entire Mediterranean Sea Coastline, not just Israel, he is a Beast after all.

And, so?

That is where Israel flees. I am not just guessing. This is a well known fact.

But the wilderness could be a lot of places in this big ol world. Who says they go all the way by foot? Your so called well known fact is weak and ill conceived speculation.

They have 30 days to get to that safe zone, by camel, by foot, by car, by horse, by bus, who cares, I never stated how they got there, some may fly in, but they can't fly to that area.

I would fly to Brazil or someplace myself if I could then! The countries spared in one war of the antichrist are not some restriction as to what wildernesses might be available to flee to.

But the truth is, like Hitler's reign, people saw ahead of time what was coming, by the time it gets here, after the pre trin rapture, I think most Jews elsewhere in the world will have moved to Israel, however, 2/3 will refuse to repent and perish anyway. God tells us where they flee. Its all throughout the bible.

More conjecture.

The 144,000 is a code for all Israel who repents, it mystifies me how grown men can understand the 10 virgins stand for the COMPLETE Church, but then can't understand a simple code of 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 means Fulness x Completeness.

The parable of the virgins showed that some would not be ready to meet Him when He comes. Trying to over spiritualize it has no benefit. Trying to replace actual people chosen for a job in the tribulation by God for some numbers racket scheme is also a lack of comprehension.

As per the Seals, if one listens, and doesn't block it out, it becomes obvious the Seals are not wrath. Look at this Seven Sealed Scroll below, it can not be read until all 7 wax signet seals have been loosed.

The one is Revelation could apparently. Maybe find a new pic. The seals in the bible reveal what is in the scroll one bit at a time.

Kings of old placed a Wax seal by using a signet ring that only they had, if anyone broke the sealed message they knew the message had been compromised, they would usually place three signet seals on a letter, if one got accidently loosed so be it, but all three had to be loosed before a message could be read, this is the picture Jesus is trying to give us here, he has 7 Wax Signet Ring Seals on this scroll, meaning it is Completely and Divinely sealed and no one is going to ever see any of this until the 7th Seal is loosed. This is why the 7th Seal is over in Rev. 8 with the Trumpet judgments.

Not so in the bible. The King of Kings has more wonderful scrolls than your little kingies.

So, in heaven, amongst us the Church/Bride of Christ, Jesus starts opening this scroll which will bring God's judgments and wrath. As Jesus opens each Seal he prophesies what they will see when the 7th seal is finally loosed, he prophesies about a man going forth conquering (White horses stands for conquering), then Jesus opens the second seal and prophesies about the same man bringing wars and taking away peace and we know this will last 42 months.

Says you. In reality the seals are OPENED and we see what unfolds each time a seal is opened.

Then with the third seal Jesus foretells that this mans wars will bring 42 months of famine. With the fourth seal Jesus prophesies that same man will bring 42 months of death, sickness and the grave (Hades). Finally Jesus prophesies of 42 months of this man killing the gentiles who repent (Martyrs) he can't get at the Jews who repented.

There are many opinions and guesses as to the seals. There is no need to accept your convoluted little scheme at all. It doesn't ring of truth and is more like a confused utterance.

Jesus now opens the sixth seal, he prophesies about God's coming 42 months of wrath that will fall once the 7th seal has been opened.

Where is 42 months in Rev 6? In my bible it says this

Revelation 6:12
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;


Revelation 6:13
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.


Revelation 6:14
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Revelation 6:15
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;


Revelation 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

That is talking about Jesus returning. How did you insert 42 months in there?

He tells how the sun, moon and stars will go dark be darkened, and the moon will become blood, and about a great earthquake. This has not happened yet,

It does when He returns which happens to be what the sixth seal is about.

just like Joel 2:31 of old, this is a Prophesy which is soon to come, when Jesus opens the 7th seal.

Or that happens when it is opened and He comes. So the seals seem to be a broad view of what happens. Then in the trumpets and vials we get more details.

So, why does the sun and moon go dim/dark and the moon turn blood red? Thats easy, the Rev. 8 Trumps.

Nice try. Notice in Rev 8 it is only partial? That means your timing is off yet again. When the very end comes it is total!

In between God opening the first 6 seals and the 7th seal what do we see? God showing us Israel getting saved in Rev. 7 Israel gets saved at or close to the return of Jesus. So if a seal or trumpet is talking about that time it should be no surprise it mentions it.

You are correct, we see the Martyrs in Seal #5 but Jesus FOREKNOWS all of our thoughts, Jesus is foretelling us their hearts before they are even murdered !!

The seal actually says then he SAW and HEARD. Not 'one day in a far away time such and such will happen'

And in Seal #6 when it tells us these men are hiding in caves, well, the wrath/asteroid has not yet fallen, again Jesus is merely foretelling us their hearts thoughts, just like he foreknew the Pharisees hearts.

No. One of the famous signs of the very end is that great earthquake such as the world has never seen. The mountains crumble. Islands move etc etc. With all the vials being poured out of course men will be trying to hide in rocks and die if possible for fear of what they see happening. That is what we expect to see just before He returns.

 

[Fisherking]

Even back in Zech 12:3 it talked of that day actually and a lot happened in the next few chapters!

THAT DAY is when Israel repents in Zech. 13, my fav. chapter in the bible I can explain why verses 6-7 talk about Jesus. Its supposed to make the rest of the prophesy stronger, it shows the end time repentance, then adds in how they gain that forgiveness, one came 500 years after the prophecy, then the end times prophesy comes like 2500 years later, so that intersected prophesy is a real wowser.

Actually if you want to match something explain it in your own words. Endless verses that have nothing to do with your theories or claims make for wasted time.

I just did it in the other post.

Says who? Look how many got saved by the end! Who did you think did a lot of that witnessing so it could happen?

The Two-witnesses, the 1/3 repent at the 1335 (Two-witnesses are the 1335 BLESSING of Dan. 12.

We are only protected after God protects us, not because we are 'super'

Exactly, those 144,000 are not preaching anything, look at Rev. 14:6 it tells us specifically who preaches the gospel to the whole world, an Angel is assigned that chore. Not Israel, they are in hiding.

A parable is a parable. A highly specific prophesy is something else.

The book of Revelation is chock full of codes, I already made a salient point why Israel could not be used, you want to stick what you were taught. I want to know the truth, I don't care what I was taught.

We choose Him, and then we are the chosen.

144,000 is a PERFECT NUMBER, just as 10 is. Gid uses 12 (Fulness) and 10(Completeness) and its on us to understand this, its pretty simple stuff tbh.

Who mentioned anything was lost but you?

Who cares? I like to be clear when I am able to.

Maybe be clear. What happens? 'this' doesn't cut it

I explained it in the other post, I do not always have time to go in depth.

If you are over in the end times, then we are in heaven already. Some of the folks still here get sealed.

Well, of course, that is why I am telling you the 144,000 like the 7000 is Isaiah is a CODE. Israel repents and except their Messiah Jesus.

So? If they showed up an hour before the Rapture, that would be before the day of the Lord.

No, the Rapture is pre trib, Israel repents during the 70th week, just before God's wrath falls at the middle of the week (1260) event. Look at it like this the 1335 happens 1335 days before the 2nd coming ends all these wonders, thus Israel repents. The 1290 happens 45 days later and the Jews flee Judea, only at the 1260 which is 30 days after the 1290 and 75 days after the 1335 does the A.C. conquer Israel. The DOTL is the day God's 1260 days of wrath starts on. Dan. 12:7 says its 1260 days from the time the children of Israel are conquered unto all these wonders are ended [by the 2nd coming].

Who's wrath did you think it was? Nothing will start till He says go.

We know whose wrath it is. He does not allow the A.C. to go forth conquering unto His wrath falls.

The bible says it was in heaven before heaven was opened and we came down to earth. Overruled

The bible says its on earth, kings that are the FEAST are on earth. Whether that registers or not.....

I don't share a cannibalistic grotesque morbid putrid view at all, sorry.

Well you need to voice that complaint with Jesus then, its you are can't understand its prose.

Some things I didn't address because when you err on the basics you get lost in space and muddled up and go off on tangents based on the original error etc etc.

I don't do errors, you just do not understand, or you aren't willing to dig in.

 

[truthpls]

THAT DAY is when Israel repents in Zech. 13,

Ok and that day is also when a lot else happens such as

Joel 2:24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.


25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.


26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.


27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.


28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:


29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.


30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.


31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.


32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.


That is not some day in the middle of the last seven years. I think your point was that the day of the Lord starts in the Great Tribulation or some such, no?

The Two-witnesses, the 1/3 repent at the 1335 (Two-witnesses are the 1335 BLESSING of Dan. 12.

So you think a multitude no man could number are saved in the tribulation solely by 2 witnesses? That seems quite a stretch simply to wave away the 144,000 who testify then as well. Then there is the angel preaching the gospel in the sky. Then there are all the other witnesses who may have helped bring some to Jesus.

Exactly, those 144,000 are not preaching anything, look at Rev. 14:6 it tells us specifically who preaches the gospel to the whole world, an Angel is assigned that chore. Not Israel, they are in hiding.

You thought that an angel did it all? No need for the 144,000 or the 2 witnesses?

The book of Revelation is chock full of codes, I already made a salient point why Israel could not be used, you want to stick what you were taught. I want to know the truth, I don't care what I was taught.

No code actually in there will ever conflict with prophesy.

144,000 is a PERFECT NUMBER,

So what? It is also a real number that is even broken down to where each person in the number comes from.

Well, of course, that is why I am telling you the 144,000 like the 7000 is Isaiah is a CODE. Israel repents and except their Messiah Jesus.

Israel does repent, but claiming they are the 2 witnesses, or the angel preaching, or a lampstand, or a trumpet or something has zero to do with them getting saved. It just shows you did not comprehend what the 144,000 were.

No, the Rapture is pre trib, Israel repents during the 70th week, just before God's wrath falls at the middle of the week (1260) event.

So why continue with the time of Jacob's trouble if they get saved? You miss the whole point of the time.

Look at it like this the 1335 happens 1335 days before the 2nd coming ends all these wonders

No idea what you think the '1335' is supposed to be. That is just a time counted FROM the abomination of desolation being set up. Not that significant to this thread because it is not known what happened exactly then. The main number we need is the days to the return of Jesus to earth which is less time than the 1335 days.

, thus Israel repents. The 1290 happens

No way. The 1290 is FROM the abomination as well. Israel does not repent there. We still see them facing His wrath till the end.

We know whose wrath it is. He does not allow the A.C. to go forth conquering unto His wrath falls.

God's wrath

The bible says its on earth, kings that are the FEAST are on earth. Whether that registers or not.....

The carnage and dead bodies are on earth. If that is something you find appetizing, well, I can't help you.

I don't do errors, you just do not understand, or you aren't willing to dig in.

You actually don't do much else. The more we dig the more that is evident.

 

[JulieB67]

The hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world to try them...That's talking about the Great Tribulation!

Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation , which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth

"Keep" does not mean remove from the earth. It means guard over in the Greek. The same example is when Christ is praying to the Father,

John 17:15 "I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil."
Same Greek word.

God knows how to take care of his own.

He comes in the Air / He comes to the earth

This is another example where we have to take words back. The Greek word for "air" in the verses used for a rapture is not the word for sky or elevation in those verses in 1st Thes 4. That's another word entirely. The word for air in 1st Thes 4 17 means the air we breath in.

I used to believe in a pretrib rapture as well but it is not biblical.

The Thessalonians believed in imminence as well and Paul had to address that in his second letter when he nails down the timing. He knew his first letter had caused some confusion and sets out to fix that.
He calls the event of 1st Thes 4 17 "the day of the Lord" in chapter 5. We have to continue to that chapter because the subject does not change. There were no chapters back then and he's continuing the subject. And then goes in 2nd Thes and gives the very same warnings as Christ about deception and states that "that day (same day) shall not happen....and lays out what must happen before our gathering back to him. Paul also states that we have to have the gospel armour on to be able to "stand in that evil day" He doesn't say we won't be here, quite the opposite.

We are told specifically to watch and be watchmen. What to we watch for? The signs that Christ and Paul lay out. Christ will not return until those events unfold.

Acts states that he will remain in Heaven until the restitution of all things. A pretrib rapture does not work there

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Hebrews also states that Christ will only return once more-



Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

There is no third time. It doesn't state he shall appear a third time for those.....

We have to let the scriptures speak for themselves.

 

[Fisherking]

That is not some day in the middle of the last seven years. I think your point was that the day of the Lord starts in the Great Tribulation or some such, no?

The point is THAT DAY has to be associated with the context as written, if its speaking about Israel's repentance then that day is not the same day as the DOTL (of course), unless its loosely assoc. that day that they repent with the coming DOTL being why they repent, before that day gets there. Sometimes in prophecy we do get these instances when things are spoken about in regards to that day, but it still happens before that day actually comes, but that looming specter causes the repentance, like like in Zech. 13:6-7 that's about Jesus' death, but its placed in with an end time chapter.

So you think a multitude no man could number are saved in the tribulation solely by 2 witnesses? That seems quite a stretch simply to wave away the 144,000 who testify then as well. Then there is the angel preaching the gospel in the sky. Then there are all the other witnesses who may have helped bring some to Jesus.

Mmmm, its Moses (imho) and Elijah come again, lol, come on. You do understand they will talk to a receptive peoples in need, who see what is coming right? Also, the Pre Trib Rapture has come and gone, we do not just fly off to heaven, when the rapture happens those of us alive will "change" which means our spirit man goes to be with the Lord, its another way of saying we leave our sin flesh bodies behind, which are corrupt and can not enter heaven. In other words we die and go to be with the Lord. There will be a billion plus dead bodies on this earth all at one time. The Jews understand they were all Christians. The Two-witnesses have one job, reading Rev. 11:1-3 carefully shows that these "measurements" John is taking is the Two-witnesses parameters unto their calling, they are to seek the save only the Jews who pray at the altar, not the Gentiles who are in the outer court.

You thought that an angel did it all? No need for the 144,000 or the 2 witnesses?

No, the Two-witnesses get Israel (The Woman........the 144,000) to repent, the Angel is preaching the gospel to the rest of the world, by that time the Jews have already repented and are in the Petra/Bozrah area. So, according to that passage, I know what is going to happen, an Angel is going to preach the gospel unto the whole world.

So why continue with the time of Jacob's trouble if they get saved? You miss the whole point of the time.

The 70 weeks judgment was designed to get Israel to repent, and to be judged, they would not repent when John called them or when Jesus died, so the 70th week was put off, the church age inserted, Israel was as Dead Men's Bones for nigh 2000 years, then she was reborn in 1948. The 70th week must get Israel to repent, but it will also judge those Jews who refuse to repent, and only 1/3 repent, we see that 2/3 refuse to repent and die. It is Jacob's troubles because roughly 10 million Jews will die, only those who repent at the 1335 will be ushered into the promised Kingdom Age where Jesus will rule over Israel for 1000 years. So, no I do not miss the point at all, you miss that the Jews who do not repent must suffer the consequences. As will the rest of the world at this time.

No idea what you think the '1335' is supposed to be. That is just a time counted FROM the abomination of desolation being set up. Not that significant to this thread because it is not known what happened exactly then. The main number we need is the days to the return of Jesus to earth which is less time than the 1335 days.

No you like most do not understand the 1335 at all, mostly because people do not or can not grasp, or get past one blocker, that the Anti-Christ has to be the 1290 AoD, he is not the AoD, that is the False Prophet, go read Rev. 13 who places "The Image"? The False Prophet, not the Anti-Christ. So, lets look at the most important key to solving all end times prophecy understandings !!

You have asked for clearer explanation, its kind of complicated.

So, we are given three numbers in Dan. ch. 12, the 1260, 1290 and 1335, not in anyone of them are we told who these numbers represent, we have to figure out via other scriptures elsewhere that the 1260 is the Anti-Christ and we can do that easily here by looking back at Dan. 11:36-45, that is "THOSE WONDERS" being spoken about in Dan. 12:7. But in order to get this over I need to paste a couple scriptures. Watch how the Angel asks a question to the Man in Linen (Jesus preincarnate). I will tie it all together.

Dan. 12:6 And one(of the 2 angels) said to the man clothed in linen(Jesus), which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he(A.C. of Dan. 11:36-45) shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Well, what finished "these things or wonders"? The second coming of Jesus ends all of these wonders, Daniel had no way of knowing that, we living 2500 years later understand that. Keep that in mind. So, we all know this is about the A.C. even though it only says "he" and we know his rule will last 1260 days. Now lets look to the very next verse, Daniel is confused and wants to know more, so guess what question he asks? Its the almost exact same question the Angel asked Jesus. So, why do we not understand the other two numbers are also "that many days" until al these things or wonders end via the second coming?

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

So, Daniel askes the exact same question, why would we expect the other two numbers not to be events that start that many days away from the second coming also? Just like the 1260 number. Then Jesus answers Daniel, tells him to go his way, this will all play out in the very end times, then he gives Daniel two more numbers which are events and the "number" just like the 1260, describes when the events each happen, they are that many days until the second coming "ends all theses things/wonders".

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away(Jesus, not some profane meat sacrifice), and the abomination that maketh desolate set up(the False Prophet places the Image), there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. (so, this event happens 1290 days before the 2nd coming of Jesus ends all of these things)

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.(So, this event that comes 1335 days before the 2nd coming is a Blessing)

So, as I was doing an exegesis of Daniel chapters 11 and 12 where I named every player in ch. 11, I saw a pious Jewish High Priest named Onias III (Dan. 11:22) and he had a brother named Jason (real name Yeshua) who bribed Antiochus Epiphanes in order to be named the High Priest, having his pious high priest brother Onias III killed (Remember all this later).

Daniel asked the same question I saw in vs. 6-7, and I understood the 1260 was 1260 days until the 2nd coming ended all these wonders seen in Dan. ch. 11, so I had to figure out what these other two numbers meant, I was sure they were that many days until the 2nd coming also, but we knew the 1260 was the Beast, and I always thought the 1290 was also the Beast/Little Horn because like you, that is just what's being taught, its 2nd nature in our thought process, so I had to overcome that hurdle or mental block. Could it be the 1290 is not the Beast I thought? Well, if the 1290 event happens 30 days before the 1260 event it could not be the Beast, because he only goes forth conquering at the 1260 (scatters Israel's power). I just could not buy into this, I had to prove this was a fallacy, LOL. So, off I went trying the spirits.

I reread Dan. 9:27 and you know what it says the prince to come (A.C.) "causes" the sacrifice to be taken away and AoD to be placed in the temple. Hmmm, I thought, its possible. I then read Rev. 13 and saw the 2nd Beast or False Prophet places the Image or AoD, not the Beast himself. Hmmmm. Then I thought about Matt. 24:15-17, and how Jesus tells the Jews to flee Judea when they see the AoD, and I thought, well how do they know to flee Judea, the Jews do not read Matthew !! And I also thought, why does the Anti-Christ allow those Jews to leave if he is the one who conquers them at the 1290? Then it hit me, of course the False Prophet being the 1290 makes much more sense, then the Jews will have 30 days to get out of Dodge so to speak (Flee Judea). So everything fit better if the AoD was the False Prophet not the Beast. I always in the back of my mind wondered why God allowed Israel to be conquered and called that a "sign" that just never made any sense at all tbh, but the AoD not being the Beast makes perfect sense. But still I wondered, how does Israel know to flee Judea at that time unless they have already repented !!!
Answers below:

Then I researched when Israel gets saved, I saw in Mal. 4:5-6 that Elijah is sent back BEFORE the DOTL which is the 1260 event(s). I then saw in Zech. 13:8-9 the Jews repent and then the very next verse sees the DOTL arrives in Zech. 14:1 Jerusalem gets conquered in vs. 2 and Jesus returns in vs. 3. So, indeed, Israel repents just before the DOTL God's Wrath falls. See why I understand what Rev. 7 really is now (Israel fleeing Judea), and how Rev. 8 starts the wrath of God? So, since I understood Israel repents before the 1260 middle of the week events which starts the wrath of God, I understood that the "1335 Blessing" was probably the Two-witnesses, I mean what better blessing could Israel have than having the Two-witnesses show up and them repenting, and finding their true, loving Messiah? I was now convinced that the 1335 was the Two-witnesses, but I had to try it further, as we are told to do. The very last key unto all this was will this "fit the timelines of Revelation" and the end times? It has to to be taken serious..

Since both the Beast and Two-witnesses have 1260 day ordained by God offices on earth, these both had to fit the timelines, we know the Beasts timeline fits, he comes to power at the 1260 and is killed when Jesus returns at the 7th Vial, that one is very easy right? But what about the Two-witnesses showing up 1335 days before the 2nd coming, does that fit? Well, yes, the Two-witnesses die at the 2nd Woe before the Beast dies at the 7th Vial. So, if both have 1260 days offices on earth, and one dies before the other dies, then in order to fulfill their 1260 days that means they have to show up before the one who dies later. Its just simple math.

1335 office to the 2nd Woe = 1260 days.

1260 office to the 7th vial = 1260 days.

The Two-witnesses have Glorious bodies, there is no reason that they "really" need to die, God could just rapture them straight to heaven after their work is done, they are allowed to die in order to give us these two juxtaposed timelines between the Beast and the Two-witnesses. This allows us to know the 2W show up 75 days before the Beast and dies 75 days before the Beast dies, this allows us to know the 3rd Woe lasts 75 days. Is it complicated, yes and no, its simple math in the end, but since God had all this locked up until the very end times, yes its complicated, especially when people can not grasp that the 1290 can not be the Beast because he is not even ruling over Israel until the 1260, which is 30 days later. So, one might ask, how does the A.C. from afar sway the False Prophet (a Jewish High Priest) to take away the real sacrifice (forbid Jesus worship) and to place the AoD (image of the E.U. President) in the temple? He is able to pressure this man because the Dan. 9:27 "Agreement/Covenant" is simply this, Israel joins the E.U. just after the Gog and Magog war and gives up (of course) all her nukes. Now back to Jason and Antiochus.

So, Jason bribed his way to the High Priest, he was Onias III's brother, he then welcomed Antiochus into the temple of God to off a sacrifice of a pig unto Zeus and he then mandated that all Jews become Hellenized, leading unto the Maccabean Revolt. That is when it hit me of course God did not just give us one Archetype in Antiochus, He would have given us both Archetypes and they would both have to live at the exact same time !! Eureka !! I now knew the End Time False Prophet would have to be a Jewish High Priest gone rogue just like Jason under Antiochus. Since Israel joins the E.U. (imho) he will then, of course, have sway over this man, and over the Israeli president, and pressure these men. Of course having a Jewish High Priest who is anti Jesus at the helm will make it easy for the A.C. from afar to say, no Jesus worship.

You see, Israel repents at the 1335, then they do what? Start going to their temple and singing praises to Jesus, praising their newfound Messiah, of course they would do that, its just natural, and these Jewish Rabbi types will hate to see 3-5 million Jews who turn to Christ Jesus, so this False Prophet 45 days later at the 1290, will put out an edict that forbids Jesus worship in the temple (TAKES AWAY, the Sacrifice, Jesus) and then cheekily places up an image of the E.U. President up in the temple of God. This is when the Jews who repented understand they must flee Judea, because Matt. 24:15-21 tells them to and because the coming Two-witnesses have forewarned them they must flee at that point in time.

 

[Fisherking]

No way. The 1290 is FROM the abomination as well. Israel does not repent there. We still see them facing His wrath till the end.

No, those who repented are protected for 1260 days, see Rev. 12.

The carnage and dead bodies are on earth. If that is something you find appetizing, well, I can't help you.

Yes, I enjoy the wicked men being condemned.

You actually don't do much else. The more we dig the more that is evident.

Been called unto Prophecy 40 years, I will not in like mind dis you, but I will just say you are way behind my data set on this brother. And that's OK. Its my calling after all.