Veggies may not be that good for you

[trophy33]

This part. Vegetarians and vegans by definition are careful with their diets. There has never been a study, not a single one, comparing vegetarians with omnivores who are equally careful to eat whole foods.

These pro plant-based diet studies frequently use Adventists as example. Forgetting, that for example Mormons who eat meat, but also do not smoke, do not drink etc., have the same health and lifespan results.

So its not about meat, but about their similar lifestyle.

 

[CoreyD]

That video does not claim those dogs have no meat in their diet.

That's true, but I am only going by what I see. If I see otherwise, I will acknowledge that as well.

 

[timewerx]

This is based on questionnaires. People do not know what they eat, its a known problem with such studies.

However, I agree that its not just sugar, but the combination with plant oils and other junk, that produces metabolic disease and then obesity.

You forgot to add exercise and over-eating.

Because I eat all these "bad foods" yet I'm as conditioned as a world class endurance athlete.

My personal conclusion that people are still over-eating even if monitoring the calories they take and burn. They're unaware of the body's miraculous ability to adapt to scarcity and become more energy efficient and be burning less calories than your calculators tell you.

Stop indulging on food and treating food like a recreational drug. Eat to live, NOT "live to eat".

When feeling hungry, instead of reaching for a snack, run for 5 minutes, it will trigger the "hepatic response" from your liver and suppress hunger cravings. This is the key and the easy way to lose weight without torturing yourself with hunger cravings.

 

[trophy33]

You forgot to add exercise and over-eating.

Its proven that exercise does not help with obesity. Overeating is related to junk food, you basically cannot overeat with elementary foods like unprocessed meat.

"Move more" campaigns paid by junk food companies is just a distraction from "our addictive products destroy your metabolism".

Because I eat all these "bad foods" yet I'm as conditioned as a world class endurance athlete.

Your claims that you are as a world class athlete etc cannot by verified. Also, whether you will be healthy in 60's and higher. You probably will be, but your personal experience and (according to you claims) extreme exercise is simply just anectodal and not sustainable for most of people.

When feeling hungry, instead of reaching for a snack, run for 5 minutes

Not sustainable for the majority of population in developed countries, with office working etc. For the majority of people, the sustainable way is to eat quality food like a lot of fatty meat, so they will not feel hungry during a day.

 

[timewerx]

but your personal experience and (according to you claims) extreme exercise is simply just anectodal and not sustainable for most of people.

Cardio vascular capacity (VO2max) is a major factor in all-cause mortality. The ONLY way you can keep it at a healthy level is through exercise.

Another factor is mobility where you need strong muscles and bones and diet alone cannot fix this.

For example, nutrition can only make the bones absorb calcium up to a certain point. The bones cannot absorb as much calcium unless it is put under strain. You need exercise to complete it like lifting weights and running. Additionally, exercise will realign bone grain orientation, further improving strength. There's no way you can get this effect without exercise.

The fact is exercise is essential and when you do, you'll depend less on these fad diets.

Not sustainable for the majority of population in developed countries, with office working etc.

If working at an office, you can take a short 5 minute break from work and walk up and down the fire exit stairwell for example.

Find an exercise you'll love to do. It's okay if you can only do it once a week on weekends then just do very short "maintaining" exercises on weekdays.

Finally, you can use very short but high intensity workout to suppress hunger.

 

[trophy33]

Finally, you can use very short but high intensity workout to suppress hunger.

Best way to suppress hunger is to eat normal, healthy food (containing a lot of fats and proteins). Its the primary and easiest choice.

People should exercise for overall health, but it does not help with obesity. Its practically impossible to exercise out junk food. Junk food is not just about excessive calories, but also about poisons and carcinogens in it.

 

[timewerx]

Best way to suppress hunger is to eat normal, healthy food (containing a lot of fats and proteins). Its the primary and easiest choice.

People should exercise for overall health, but it does not help with obesity. Its practically impossible to exercise out junk food. Junk food is not just about excessive calories, but also about poisons and carcinogens in it.

I can't eat too much of red meat. It gives me indigestion. I do eat red meat everyday but only in small quantities. BTW, red meat is associated with bowel cancer if you look it up.

I used to be sedentary and feel embarrassed to exercise so I know where I'm coming from and I know there are many ways to enjoy exercise and not feel like work or burden.

To me, exercise is the easiest, quickest choice to keep myself eating between meals and I only eat twice a day.

 

[trophy33]

BTW, red meat is associated with bowel cancer if you look it up.

Post a link. In any case, plants are associated with specific cancers, too. It depends on how strong the association is, whether the finding is clinically significant and if the risk is relative or absolute.

Basically, any kind of food or drink must be processed somewhere in the body, and the place, where it is processed in, has a slightly higher risk of problems if overused than other parts of body. But this risk as such is insignificant in most cases, if your diet is rational and composed of minimally processed foods.

I used to be sedentary and feel embarrassed to exercise so I know where I'm coming from and I know there are many ways to enjoy exercise and not feel like work or burden.

To me, exercise is the easiest, quickest choice to keep myself eating between meals and I only eat twice a day.

We are not talking just about you, though. We are talking about a broader population.

 

[timewerx]

Post a link. In any case, plants are associated with specific cancers, too. It depends on how strong the association is, whether the finding is clinically significant and if the risk is relative or absolute.

Look it up yourself, there's a lot of links. If you're really concerned about health or your own health, I'll leave it to your personal judgement.

 

[trophy33]

Look it up yourself, there's a lot of links. If you're really concerned about health or your own health, I'll leave it to your personal judgement.

I know of no study proving causality or a strong association. If you do not know of any, too, do not tell me to look it up.

 

[timewerx]

I know of no study proving causality or a strong association. If you do not know of any, too, do not tell me to look it up.

They only flagged red meat and processed meats as carcinogenic. Otherwise poultry and fish meat are safe.

They further recommend in order to diminish carcinogenic effect of red meat, diet should be high in fiber, such as vegetables and to limit consumption of red meat to only 500g / week.

It probably confuses you why a research on carcinogen would recommend eating vegetables without even requiring it has to be organically grown. (hint: anti-cancer compounds in vegetables)

The study:

Red Meat and Colorectal Cancer - PMC

Colorectal cancer (CRC) is the third most common cancer in men and the second in women worldwide. More than half of cases occur in more developed countries. The consumption of red meat (beef, pork, lamb, veal, mutton) is high in developed countries ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Recommendation by cancer experts:

Red meat, processed meat and cancer

Evidence shows that eating red meat and processed meat can cause cancer. Read our recommendations for how you can reduce your risk of cancer.

www.cancercouncil.com.au

 

[trophy33]

They only flagged red meat and processed meats as carcinogenic. Otherwise poultry and fish meat are safe.

They further recommend in order to diminish carcinogenic effect of red meat, diet should be high in fiber, such as vegetables and to limit consumption of red meat to only 500g / week.

It probably confuses you why a research on carcinogen would recommend eating vegetables without even requiring it has to be organically grown. (hint: anti-cancer compounds in vegetables)

The study:

Red Meat and Colorectal Cancer - PMC

Colorectal cancer (CRC) is the third most common cancer in men and the second in women worldwide. More than half of cases occur in more developed countries. The consumption of red meat (beef, pork, lamb, veal, mutton) is high in developed countries ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Recommendation by cancer experts:

Red meat, processed meat and cancer

Evidence shows that eating red meat and processed meat can cause cancer. Read our recommendations for how you can reduce your risk of cancer.

www.cancercouncil.com.au

Yeah, epidemiological studies and relative risks.

For example:
"In this large cohort study, after six years follow-up of 88,751 women, 150 colon cancer cases were documented, and the relative risk (RR) of colon cancer in women who ate beef, pork, or lamb as a main dish every day was 2.49 as compared with those reporting consumption less than once a month"

From 89,000 women, 150 colon cancer were documented. Thats 0.16%. In those 0.16% of women, there was a just a 2.5 higher risk for those who eat more meat. Do you know what is the relative risk for smoking and lung cancer, for example? 52. The chance of getting colon cancer from eating red meat is so small that its not even worth thinking about.

Such weak associations and insignificant risk ratios say nothing relevant for clinical or diet recommendation. When its this small, its probable its not from eating meat at all, but because of other hidden factors.

This shoddy kind of research is criticized by the university of Washington. They analyzed these studies and came to conclusion that red meat is not a health risk:

https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2022/11/14/red_meat_is_not_a_health_risk_a_new_study_slams_years_of_shoddy_research_864601.html

 

[timewerx]

This shoddy kind of research is criticized by the university of Washington. They analyzed these studies and came to conclusion that red meat is not a health risk:

https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2022/11/14/red_meat_is_not_a_health_risk_a_new_study_slams_years_of_shoddy_research_864601.html

That's a relief! That means I can keep on eating pork (as if I have any other choice!).

Anyway, the article you shared me also mentioned this:

“There is, however, more evidence for a health risk from eating too few vegetables. That is really the risk of a high-meat diet, those meat calories are displacing vegetable calories.”

It would seem so far the link I gave you and the link you gave me both favored omnivorous diet.

 

[trophy33]

That's a relief! That means I can keep on eating pork (as if I have any other choice!).

Anyway, the article you shared me also mentioned this:

“There is, however, more evidence for a health risk from eating too few vegetables. That is really the risk of a high-meat diet, those meat calories are displacing vegetable calories.”

It would seem so far the link I gave you and the link you gave me both favored omnivorous diet.

Its always needed to see the numbers, what is the real risk. For example, if your risk is not 1 in 10,000, but 2 in 10,000, your relative risk is 2 (100% higher than not doing something), but the absolute risk is still none.

Its a problem with mainstream media - they want attention, so they formulate it much more strongly than it really is.

 

[trophy33]

That's a relief! That means I can keep on eating pork (as if I have any other choice!).

Its also worth mentioning, that the link between processed meat and health problems is stronger than just meat. Processed meat contains sugar, is full of plant oils, coloring, preservatives.

Also, the way of cooking can make another difference - frying or grilling until black is of course something else than just boiling it in water.

 

[timewerx]

Its also worth mentioning, that the link between processed meat and health problems is stronger than just meat. Processed meat contains sugar, is full of plant oils, coloring, preservatives.

I don't eat processed meat. No sausages, no bacon, no ham, no spam, no chicken nor fish nuggets, we don't barbeque either.

Just ground pork meat I can buy cheap from our local wet market. We fry them though because pork meat tends to have parasites.

Beef might have been better because we don't need to fry them. But I seem to be allergic to beef even roasted ones.

 

[timewerx]

Its always needed to see the numbers, what is the real risk. For example, if your risk is not 1 in 10,000, but 2 in 10,000, your relative risk is 2 (100% higher than not doing something), but the absolute risk is still none.

Its a problem with mainstream media - they want attention, so they formulate it much more strongly than it really is.

The article you gave me did not speak favorably of high meat or carnivore diet.

In truth, I don't trust "extreme" diets like vegetarian/vegan, and carnivore. I'll just eat whatever I can buy in large quantities cheaply.

The Holy Spirit only gave me two specific instructions, Intermittent Fasting and exercise and a few other things that doesn't involve changing what I eat.

I have a cyst at my back for almost a year now. It got big at some point but did not cause any pain nor discomfort. Mom wanted me to go to the hospital. I researched and the results I found is surgical removal. Holy Spirit guided me to Intermittent Fasting and more exercise. I was already exercising by then but Holy Spirit wanted more.

I persevered for months and then one day, the cyst started getting smaller and almost gone now. It all happened without medical intervention. I didn't even try any home remedy save for IF and exercise.

I'm not saying you avoid going to the hospital. I just don't have money to spare, even if surgery is free in the gov't run hospitals, some of the meds required are not and can be quite expensive.

 

[trophy33]

The article you gave me did not speak favorably of high meat or carnivore diet.

Sure, the ideal diet was not the focus of the article. The focus was the shoddy research about red meat.

In truth, I don't trust "extreme" diets like vegetarian/vegan, and carnivore. I'll just eat whatever I can buy in large quantities cheaply.

The Holy Spirit only gave me two specific instructions, Intermittent Fasting and exercise and a few other things that doesn't involve changing what I eat.

I have a cyst at my back for almost a year now. It got big at some point but did not cause any pain nor discomfort. Mom wanted me to go to the hospital. I researched and the results I found is surgical removal. Holy Spirit guided me to Intermittent Fasting and more exercise. I was already exercising by then but Holy Spirit wanted more.

I persevered for months and then one day, the cyst started getting smaller and almost gone now. It all happened without medical intervention. I didn't even try any home remedy save for IF and exercise.

I'm not saying you avoid going to the hospital. I just don't have money to spare, even if surgery is free in the gov't run hospitals, some of the meds required are not and can be quite expensive.

This is just your personal view/experience. However, I am interested in evidence and what is the ideal diet for humans. And I am pretty sure "buying whatever is cheap" is not it.

 

[timewerx]

This is just your personal view/experience. However, I am interested in evidence and what is the ideal diet for humans. And I am pretty sure "buying whatever is cheap" is not it.

People living in poverty is still the biggest group in the world by economic groupings and most of these people are bunched up in cities where they have extremely limited option to grow or raise what they eat.

A cheap diet is the only option available to about half of all the people on the world including myself.

Yet I am probably healthier than many fitness enthusiasts who aren't limited by financial circumstances despite me having significant risk of cardiovascular disease (I was prediabetic and had hypertension at one point) and cancer (plenty in our relatives). I did not underwent any medical intervention to rid myself of these illnesses. I simply tried to live the lifestyle of Jesus as a believer.

However, I doubt anyone would ever conduct studies on my lifestyle. I simply don't matter enough. I'm poor and a nobody.

Just read what Jesus did. How He lived. Fasted very often and LOTs of exercise walking up and down a mountain to pray. It really worked for me. I've been med-free since Covid. I never got sick anymore despite the cheap foods and I'm as fit as a professional athlete who probably spent thousands of dollars to get the conditioning they needed while I spent nothing, 0 dollars!

 

[FireDragon76]

The cardio during a fasted state appears to be working. I dropped a half inch off my waist and lost two percent of my total body fat over the weekend. I did two sessions each day of about twenty minutes each in the morning before breakfast, doing mostly uphill walking on a treadmill. I've been taking a little bit of extra magnesium to try to prevent cramping and muscle fatigue.

From what I have read, higher intensity cardio during a fasted state also burns less lean mass over time, than higher intensity cardio during a non-fasted state, and is good for targeting visceral fat, which is the most serious since it tends to infiltrate your organs and cause diabetes and liver disease.

I also bought some black lentils. I've read research that anthocyanins (the purple or black pigments in many foods) are good for reducing inflammation and blood glucose. You normally find them in berries in higher amounts in a western diet, but you can find them in alot of foods (like black turtle beans, commonly found in Mexican food). Black rice is also available but it isn't as cheap as brown rice, but the lentils were reasonable (about $3.29 per pound). Subjectively, eating a serving of anthocyanin-rich foods every day seems to help control hunger gradually over time. I'm going to try to up that to two servings per day.