• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Genesis 3:15

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
22,652
19,679
Flyoverland
✟1,351,869.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
I gave AN interpretation that was given to me by a Christian, as an example of the type of interpretation I was given.
At least a little progress has been made. You recognize that there have been several interpretations, some of them bad enough to be misinterpretations. Still, the one you gave in your OP was out there enough that I do think it qualifies as a straw man. I donno. Maybe that's all you have been exposed to so far.
None of the other interpretations given to me so far make any sense, as none of the interpretations given to me have anything in the biblical text to support the truth of their interpretation.
So you did read the link from John Paul II and find that makes no sense to you either? It was fairly minimalist compared to the one you posted in the OP.
I doubt that any Christian here would be interpreting Genesis 3:15 the way that they are, if they were not TOLD by somebody to interpret it the way that they are. There is nothing at all obvious in the text that would cause anybody to interpret it that way.
I donno about that. Somebody had to come up with what you quoted in the OP in the first place to pass it on to someone else who passed it on to you. Some of these interpretations are quite original. For that matter I would actually look to the really old interpretations from the Church Fathers. Some of them can be naive but others seem well connected. I don't have a list for you of Patristic references to Genesis 3:15 but maybe someone could curate a decent list for you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lilith2006
Upvote 0

Aussie Pete

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 14, 2019
9,082
8,298
Frankston
Visit site
✟773,725.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
The thing that really frustrates me as a Jewish person is that I DO listen to what Christians have to say, but they then REFUSE to listen to what I have to say about the subject. Apparently Jewish people are not allowed to interpret their OWN scriptures. It comes across as extremely arrogant, because they presume that THEIR interpretation is the CORRECT interpretation, & that anybody else who interprets it differently, HAS to be wrong.

Yet it is obvious to me that the majority of Christians who make claims about prophecies about Jesus in the Old Testament have never read the verse themselves & just come up with the idea that a certain passage is a prophecy of The Messiah. They are always TOLD by another Christian who was told by somebody else that a certain passage is about the Messiah. They then just run with this idea, never having studied the entire chapter that the passage is from to make sure that they are understanding it correctly, & assert that it is a prophecy about the Messiah.
Christians are interpreting passages as being about Jesus AFTER the fact. A prophecy is only useful if it predicts something BEFORE it happens. I doubt that ANYBODY could have used Genesis 3:15 to predict Jesus BEFORE the stories of Jesus came out in the 1st century A.D.
First up, your concept that prophecy has to be understood beforehand is just wrong. Much prophecy is understood only when it comes to pass. For example, the "Abomination that causes desolation" is clearly Antiochus Epiphanese. Who knew that beforehand? The monster was not even born when the prophecy was made.

The confusion about the serpent in the garden is ridiculous. He was not the snake that we know today. Revelation 12:9 and 20:2 refer to the Serpent as the "Serpent of Old, aka the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. You know that the Serpent is described Genesis 3:1. He was not a snake. His physical form was transformed to what we see today. He still feeds on the "dust of the earth" - that is people created in God's image. That "food" is not physical. Satan needs the cooperation of people to get his will done. He does it by lies and deception and slandering God. Satan is the ultimate user.
 
Upvote 0

Lilith2006

Active Member
Oct 25, 2023
82
7
19
Gold Coast
✟16,715.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
First up, your concept that prophecy has to be understood beforehand is just wrong. Much prophecy is understood only when it comes to pass. For example, the "Abomination that causes desolation" is clearly Antiochus Epiphanese. Who knew that beforehand? The monster was not even born when the prophecy was made.

The confusion about the serpent in the garden is ridiculous. He was not the snake that we know today. Revelation 12:9 and 20:2 refer to the Serpent as the "Serpent of Old, aka the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. You know that the Serpent is described Genesis 3:1. He was not a snake. His physical form was transformed to what we see today. He still feeds on the "dust of the earth" - that is people created in God's image. That "food" is not physical. Satan needs the cooperation of people to get his will done. He does it by lies and deception and slandering God. Satan is the ultimate user.
I agree that you wont know if a prophecy has been fulfilled until AFTER it has been fulfilled, & you may not know the exact event that the prophecy was referring to until after it has been fulfilled. But at least we know that the prophecy in Daniel WAS a prediction of a future event so it is correct to label it as a prophecy.

It is not at all clear that Genesis 3:15 is predicting anything, other than that snakes & humans will have enmity towards one another, & that was obviously already known before the account was written. So it is not correct to label it as a prophecy.

However if the insistence is that it is a prophecy about Jesus defeating Satan, then the prophecy remains unfulfilled, because Christians claim that Satan is alive & well, & still deceiving everybody. So until it is fulfilled, you can not say it is a prophecy of Jesus defeating Satan, UNTIL AFTER the event occurs, & it might never occur. So the "prophecy" has proven nothing, except that the Messiah has not yet come.

It can also not be proven that Jesus was born of a virgin, & Rabbi's deny that there is any such prophecy of a virgin birth in Isaiah in the 1st place. Prophesying a virgin birth is a useless prophecy, unless it can be proven that the woman who gave birth to the child, was in fact a virgin when she conceived. There is no possible way of verifying this.

The only mentions of a virgin birth are in Mathew & Luke in the New Testament. Paul either apparently did not know of it, or if he did, he didn't think it was important enough to mention to his converts & potential converts. And neither Mathew or Luke can be relied upon on Jesus birth details. Mathew has Jesus being born no later then 4 BCE, & Luke has Jesus being born in 6 CE, a minimum of a 10 year discrepancy. Both authors give totally different genealogies of Jesus, even though they are both genealogies of Josephs line (who apparently wasn't even the father). Mathew has Mary & Joseph fleeing with Jesus to Egypt just after Jesus birth, but Luke has them returning to Jerusalem, & then back to Nazareth after Jesus birth, with no mention of Egypt.

There is also the problem that Christians have created for themselves of explaining WHY Satan was in the garden of Eden in the 1st place. Was God powerless to keep Satan out of the garden (so not all powerful, as Satan is at least equally powerful) OR did God deliberately allow Satan in to the garden to deceive Eve, therefore ensuring that she & Adam would fail?

If Satan was ALREADY in the garden of Eden BEFORE Adam & Eve sinned, then the garden was not perfect or a paradise, & the garden was already full of evil & sin. So it is wrong to blame man for sin. This is a problem for Christians to resolve, not Jews, as Christians are the ones claiming that Satan was already in the garden BEFORE the downfall of man.
 
Upvote 0

Lilith2006

Active Member
Oct 25, 2023
82
7
19
Gold Coast
✟16,715.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
it means your post 70 is not scriptural ...
Post 70 was about Genesis 4:1. What does Genesis 4:1 have to do with Satan?

Regarding YOUR post, in what time period has Satan been bound for a thousand years? Is this supposed to have already happened, or has it not yet happened? If it has not yet happened, there is no way of knowing if this is a truthful prophecy, or just the ravings of an old man, that will NEVER come to pass. Prophecy is not prophecy unless it actually happens, & in the time period specified. It is very convenient for the author (& Christians who believe it is accurate prophecy) that no time period was specified, as it can forever be pushed into the never never.
 
Upvote 0
Jun 16, 2020
2,209
696
57
London
✟132,385.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Post 70 was about Genesis 4:1. What does Genesis 4:1 have to do with Satan?

Regarding YOUR post, in what time period has Satan been bound for a thousand years? Is this supposed to have already happened, or has it not yet happened? If it has not yet happened, there is no way of knowing if this is a truthful prophecy, or just the ravings of an old man, that will NEVER come to pass. Prophecy is not prophecy unless it actually happens, & in the time period specified. It is very convenient for the author (& Christians who believe it is accurate prophecy) that no time period was specified, as it can forever be pushed into the never never.
you wrote ( post 70 ) "I specifically used that verse to explain that the Serpent in Genesis 3 is NOT Satan," to which i quoted a verse showing this statement of yours is not scriptural ....
 
Upvote 0

Lilith2006

Active Member
Oct 25, 2023
82
7
19
Gold Coast
✟16,715.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
you wrote ( post 70 ) "I specifically used that verse to explain that the Serpent in Genesis 3 is NOT Satan," to which i quoted a verse showing this statement of yours is not scriptural ....
I apologise, my post was about Genesis 4:1 as well as Genesis 3:15 & Genesis 49:17, however your reply did not address at all what the post was actually about. Your post did not address Genesis 49:17 at all.

You also failed to answer my question about the 1000 year period of Satan being bound. Is that supposed to have already happened, or it has never happened, so not a fulfilled prophecy?
 
Upvote 0
Jun 16, 2020
2,209
696
57
London
✟132,385.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I apologise, my post was about Genesis 4:1 as well as Genesis 3:15 & Genesis 49:17, however your reply did not address at all what the post was actually about. Your post did not address Genesis 49:17 at all.

You also failed to answer my question about the 1000 year period of Satan being bound. Is that supposed to have already happened, or it has never happened, so not a fulfilled prophecy?

all i have done is post a verse to show that the serpent/snake is Satan in response to you saying the serpent/snake is not Satan .. i do not see any point in addressing anything else until this is understood and agreed upon ...
 
Upvote 0

Lilith2006

Active Member
Oct 25, 2023
82
7
19
Gold Coast
✟16,715.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
all i have done is post a verse to show that the serpent/snake is Satan in response to you saying the serpent/snake is not Satan .. i do not see any point in addressing anything else until this is understood and agreed upon ...
I don't agree that the Serpent in Genesis 3 is Satan. I also showed that Genesis 49:17 uses almost identical language, & you can not infer that that passage is about Satan. There is nothing in the Old Testament that infers that Genesis 3 is about Satan. Unless it can be proven that Jesus was actually the Jewish Messiah, & the new testament is true, I do not need to address the New Testament. Unless you can show that the prophecy you quoted has been fulfilled, why should it be taken seriously?
 
Upvote 0
Jun 16, 2020
2,209
696
57
London
✟132,385.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't agree that the Serpent in Genesis 3 is Satan. I also showed that Genesis 49:17 uses almost identical language, & you can not infer that that passage is about Satan. There is nothing in the Old Testament that infers that Genesis 3 is about Satan. Unless it can be proven that Jesus was actually the Jewish Messiah, & the new testament is true, I do not need to address the New Testament. Unless you can show that the prophecy you quoted has been fulfilled, why should it be taken seriously?

who or what is Satan in your view ...
 
Upvote 0

Aussie Pete

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 14, 2019
9,082
8,298
Frankston
Visit site
✟773,725.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
I agree that you wont know if a prophecy has been fulfilled until AFTER it has been fulfilled, & you may not know the exact event that the prophecy was referring to until after it has been fulfilled. But at least we know that the prophecy in Daniel WAS a prediction of a future event so it is correct to label it as a prophecy.

It is not at all clear that Genesis 3:15 is predicting anything, other than that snakes & humans will have enmity towards one another, & that was obviously already known before the account was written. So it is not correct to label it as a prophecy.

However if the insistence is that it is a prophecy about Jesus defeating Satan, then the prophecy remains unfulfilled, because Christians claim that Satan is alive & well, & still deceiving everybody. So until it is fulfilled, you can not say it is a prophecy of Jesus defeating Satan, UNTIL AFTER the event occurs, & it might never occur. So the "prophecy" has proven nothing, except that the Messiah has not yet come.

It can also not be proven that Jesus was born of a virgin, & Rabbi's deny that there is any such prophecy of a virgin birth in Isaiah in the 1st place. Prophesying a virgin birth is a useless prophecy, unless it can be proven that the woman who gave birth to the child, was in fact a virgin when she conceived. There is no possible way of verifying this.

The only mentions of a virgin birth are in Mathew & Luke in the New Testament. Paul either apparently did not know of it, or if he did, he didn't think it was important enough to mention to his converts & potential converts. And neither Mathew or Luke can be relied upon on Jesus birth details. Mathew has Jesus being born no later then 4 BCE, & Luke has Jesus being born in 6 CE, a minimum of a 10 year discrepancy. Both authors give totally different genealogies of Jesus, even though they are both genealogies of Josephs line (who apparently wasn't even the father). Mathew has Mary & Joseph fleeing with Jesus to Egypt just after Jesus birth, but Luke has them returning to Jerusalem, & then back to Nazareth after Jesus birth, with no mention of Egypt.

There is also the problem that Christians have created for themselves of explaining WHY Satan was in the garden of Eden in the 1st place. Was God powerless to keep Satan out of the garden (so not all powerful, as Satan is at least equally powerful) OR did God deliberately allow Satan in to the garden to deceive Eve, therefore ensuring that she & Adam would fail?

If Satan was ALREADY in the garden of Eden BEFORE Adam & Eve sinned, then the garden was not perfect or a paradise, & the garden was already full of evil & sin. So it is wrong to blame man for sin. This is a problem for Christians to resolve, not Jews, as Christians are the ones claiming that Satan was already in the garden BEFORE the downfall of man.
The questions you pose and the assumptions you make are way too complex for a forum like this. They have little to do with the real question. Was Jesus the Son of God, did He die for the sins of the world and did he rise again to rule and reign for eternity. I'm on an email list of Professor James Tour. He is a research scientist at Rice University. He was raised a secular Jew. He accepted Jesus as a teenager. I suggest that you contact him if you are serious. One thing I am sure of. The Bible is a book of mystery to those who are not born again. Once you are born again, the mysteries begin to make sense.

I'll give you an example of why answering all your questions is so difficult. To explain why Satan was in Eden, you need to know about the pre-Adamic creation. Many Christians are ignorant of this. The original creation was destroyed by a catastrophic flood, hence the waters covering the earth. Nothing survived except the physical earth. Satan is a fallen angel so cannot die.

Jesus said that He saw Satan fall like lightning. So Satan fell to earth. God created Eden and created man neither good nor evil. Adam had a choice. The evening news tells you the consequences of Adam's choice. Jesus came in order to reverse the consequences of Adam's disobedience.

Jesus defeated Satan initially when He was tempted by Satan in the wilderness. Adam succumbed to Satan's temptation, Jesus did not. Jesus defeated Satan again when He overcame death by rising again from the grave. The final end of Satan will be when the church enforces the victory of Christ that God gives to the believer.

This is the hyper condensed version. My suggestion is that you ask God to open your eyes to the truth and then contact Professor Tour. He leads many to Christ, usually one or two a week. He is what we call an evangelist. Being a Jew, he knows how to talk to Jews.
 
Upvote 0

Lilith2006

Active Member
Oct 25, 2023
82
7
19
Gold Coast
✟16,715.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
who or what is Satan in your view ...
Satan is barely mentioned in the Old Testament, & the only place we have a description of Satan is in Job 2. In Job 2 Satan is a part of the council of Angels who God meets with. In Job 2 Satan is described as roaming the earth, not slithering about on his belly & eating dust. God & Satan are on speaking terms, & they don't appear to be arch enemies of one another, otherwise why would god be inviting Satan to the council of angels, & conducting wagers with him?

Satan does appear to be an unpleasant character, as he brings a lot of harm to Job & his family, however all of this is done with the permission of God. Satan is not acting on his own & against Gods wishes, he is acting with the full knowledge & approval of God. Satan is a servant of God, like all of the other angels.

That is my view based on the biblical texts. I have nothing else to base my opinion on other than what it says in the old testament.
 
Upvote 0
Jun 16, 2020
2,209
696
57
London
✟132,385.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Satan is barely mentioned in the Old Testament, & the only place we have a description of Satan is in Job 2. In Job 2 Satan is a part of the council of Angels who God meets with. In Job 2 Satan is described as roaming the earth, not slithering about on his belly & eating dust. God & Satan are on speaking terms, & they don't appear to be arch enemies of one another, otherwise why would god be inviting Satan to the council of angels, & conducting wagers with him?

Satan does appear to be an unpleasant character, as he brings a lot of harm to Job & his family, however all of this is done with the permission of God. Satan is not acting on his own & against Gods wishes, he is acting with the full knowledge & approval of God. Satan is a servant of God, like all of the other angels.

That is my view based on the biblical texts. I have nothing else to base my opinion on other than what it says in the old testament.
can we agree that according to Numbers 22:22 that Satan is the adversary ?
 
Upvote 0

Lilith2006

Active Member
Oct 25, 2023
82
7
19
Gold Coast
✟16,715.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
The questions you pose and the assumptions you make are way too complex for a forum like this. They have little to do with the real question. Was Jesus the Son of God, did He die for the sins of the world and did he rise again to rule and reign for eternity. I'm on an email list of Professor James Tour. He is a research scientist at Rice University. He was raised a secular Jew. He accepted Jesus as a teenager. I suggest that you contact him if you are serious. One thing I am sure of. The Bible is a book of mystery to those who are not born again. Once you are born again, the mysteries begin to make sense.

I'll give you an example of why answering all your questions is so difficult. To explain why Satan was in Eden, you need to know about the pre-Adamic creation. Many Christians are ignorant of this. The original creation was destroyed by a catastrophic flood, hence the waters covering the earth. Nothing survived except the physical earth. Satan is a fallen angel so cannot die.

Jesus said that He saw Satan fall like lightning. So Satan fell to earth. God created Eden and created man neither good nor evil. Adam had a choice. The evening news tells you the consequences of Adam's choice. Jesus came in order to reverse the consequences of Adam's disobedience.

Jesus defeated Satan initially when He was tempted by Satan in the wilderness. Adam succumbed to Satan's temptation, Jesus did not. Jesus defeated Satan again when He overcame death by rising again from the grave. The final end of Satan will be when the church enforces the victory of Christ that God gives to the believer.

This is the hyper condensed version. My suggestion is that you ask God to open your eyes to the truth and then contact Professor Tour. He leads many to Christ, usually one or two a week. He is what we call an evangelist. Being a Jew, he knows how to talk to Jews.
I have heard of Professor Tour. I will research a bit about him. You say that there was a flood BEFORE Adam & Eve, so this is a different flood to the Noah flood? Where does this information come from, & if God created everything to be perfect, why was there a pre-Garden of Eden flood? Its making even less sense. Why would God create everything perfect & have it all destroyed by a flood before even getting started. Obviously it cannot be perfect, so there goes the claim of the perfect god & perfect creation out the window, IF what you are saying is correct. But for it to be correct, there has to be verifiable evidence of this, which is why I ask where your source comes from?

I think that my questions do have a bearing on whether or not Jesus was the son of God, did he die for our sins, & whether he rose again. If Christians are just making up claims that the old testament fits the Christian theology, without valid evidence, then this puts into question their other claims. If you can not reconcile Mathew & Lukes birth narratives, then it puts into question that the new testament is the word of god,, & if either of the birth narratives are true, since BOTH narratives cannot be true. If Christians are making claims that prophecy from the old testament was fulfilled by Jesus & it wasn't, then that puts the whole story into question.

You made no attempt to answer the discrepancies of the birth narratives between Mathew & Luke. Haven't you ever thought to ask these questions yourself, or do you just ignore the discrepancies & sweep them under the rug as though they don't exist?
 
Upvote 0

Lilith2006

Active Member
Oct 25, 2023
82
7
19
Gold Coast
✟16,715.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
can we agree that according to Numbers 22:22 that Satan is the adversary ?
Yes, I can agree with that. There is nothing in Numbers 22:22 that is at odds with what I said about Satan in Job. In the version I am reading now, it says only Angel of The Lord, however I am sure I saw a version of this verse at some time where it refers to the angel as Satan, although I could be mistaken.
 
Upvote 0
Jun 16, 2020
2,209
696
57
London
✟132,385.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, I can agree with that. There is nothing in Numbers 22:22 that is at odds with what I said about Satan in Job. In the version I am reading now, it says only Angel of The Lord, however I am sure I saw a version of this verse at some time where it refers to the angel as Satan, although I could be mistaken.

probably same verse as its the same word like in Psalms 109:6 it is translated as accuser and therefor Satan is an adversary/enemy/accuser picture in a myraid of ways both in the OT and the NT for eg a snake/serpent/leviathan/red dragon to name a few ...
 
Upvote 0

Lilith2006

Active Member
Oct 25, 2023
82
7
19
Gold Coast
✟16,715.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
probably same verse as its the same word like in Psalms 109:6 it is translated as accuser and therefor Satan is an adversary/enemy/accuser picture in a myraid of ways both in the OT and the NT for eg a snake/serpent/leviathan/red dragon to name a few ...
I don't see Psalm 109 as having anything to do with Satan. Somebody who is an adversary or an accuser or even an enemy is a lot different to somebody who is evil, a liar & a deceiver which is the Christian description of Satan. I don't quite get what point you are attempting to make?
 
Upvote 0
Jun 16, 2020
2,209
696
57
London
✟132,385.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't see Psalm 109 as having anything to do with Satan. Somebody who is an adversary or an accuser or even an enemy is a lot different to somebody who is evil, a liar & a deceiver which is the Christian description of Satan. I don't quite get what point you are attempting to make?

In that day the LORD will take His sharp, great, and mighty sword, and bring judgment on Leviathan the fleeing serpent—Leviathan the coiling serpent—and He will slay the dragon of the sea. Isaiah 27:1

Then the angel showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, with Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. Zechariah 3:1
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Critically Recalculating!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
24,580
11,474
Space Mountain!
✟1,355,552.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Lilith, you mention that you were invited to a bible study by some Christian group and that they proceeded to discuss or debate with you about the meaning of Genesis 3:15.

I was curious to know what specifically the folks who invited you to their group bible study asserted in their arguments. Did their overall arguments include all of the same sort of points asserted by the following messianic type Christian group in the following articles [links below]?

I wonder how simplistic their arguments had to have been if they couldn't even cite teachings from any Jewish rabbis from any time who reflected their own viewpoint by which they were attempting to influence you.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0