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Genesis 3:15

Aussie Pete

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You say "that the reason christians BELIEVE" & then you give an answer based totally on a christian understanding, without explaining how you ARRIVE at that understanding. A muslim could claim that they believe that the verse is about the prophet Muhammad coming to crush false prophets, which is why the Quran is the final revelation of God. Unless you can provide REASONING for interpreting the verse the way that you do, then why should any reasonable person interpret it any other way to that which is written.
I give MY full reasoning here (please click the top link below as it takes you to my response to somebody else):


If you as a Christian can not give logical reasons to reinterpret the text, then it should be read plainly, as it is written, WITHOUT reinterpretation.

Please respond to my reasoning by clicking the link above, & tell me where I am wrong.
Jesus rose from the dead. Muhammed burns in hell. That's why Jesus is the promised seed of the woman. That's all I have to say on this subject.
 
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ViaCrucis

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This is MY interpretation (below), from a plain reading of the text, & from taking the evidence of other verses into account. If you read the text plainly, & dont have to make huge illogical assumptions, then you are more likely to come to the CORRECT interpretation. If you need to twist everything to fit Jesus into it, you are probably butchering the true meaning. No Jewish person reading this text would have come to the conclusion that it is about the messiah, so it can not be a prophecy. It has only been interpreted this way AFTER the fact.

The below is totally MY interpretation, not from a Rabbi or anybody else.

If you look at all the other verses in the Old Testament that support this verse, you will NOT come to the conclusion that Genesis 3:15 is about Jesus destroying Satan. You have to IGNORE all of the other verses if you want to cling to this conclusion.

If we look at Genesis 3:1:
"Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” "
This is a description of the original form of the animal that is in genesis 3:15. It makes it clear that this is an ANIMAL, that God made when he created the other animals in genesis. It doesn't say anything about this being a fallen angel, that was previously in the heavens, like Christians believe that Satan was.

In Genesis 3:14:
So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

This is describing the condition of this animal AFTER it has been cursed, which is what we see in SNAKES today. This does NOT match the description of Satan in Job, where Satan is described as an Angel who roams the earth. It does not say in Job that Satan crawls on his belly. It also makes it clear in Job that Satan & God are on speaking terms. They are not arch enemies in Job.

Genesis 3:15:
And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
This verse states that God will put enmity between Eve, & THIS particular serpent (so Eve & THIS Serpent will hate one another for the rest of THEIR days). THIS snake will die, just as Eve will die, as it is a mortal snake.

God ALSO puts enmity between Eves offspring (all of her descendants, which is all of mankind) & all of the serpents descendants (which is all of the snakes we see today). As far as I am aware, Satan had NO descendants.

The fact that god refers to only Eves seed in the above passage, is because god is only talking to Eve & the Serpent. He is not addressing Adam in this verse. it has nothing to do with a virgin birth.

The word "he" as in "he will crush your head" is just a collective term for all of eves descendants. You will often see the term "he" in Jewish scriptures to describe nations & tribes.

We also have Genesis 49:16 & 17, which uses very similar language when describing a snake:
Genesis 49:
16 “Dan[h] will provide justice for his people
as one of the tribes of Israel.
17 Dan will be a snake by the roadside,
a viper along the path,
that bites the horse’s heels
so that its rider tumbles backward.

There is no way that you can imply that the above 2 verses are about Satan.

There is NOTHING in the old testament to suggest that this is a prophecy about The Messiah. You have to jump to unfounded conclusion after unfounded conclusion to reach this interpretation. A prophecy is useless if you can only read it into the text AFTER the fact.

You are under no obligation to accept the Christian interpretation. But you asked why Christians interpret it this way, and so I provided an answer to that question.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Bobber

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If you look at all the other verses in the Old Testament that support this verse, you will NOT come to the conclusion that Genesis 3:15 is about Jesus destroying Satan.
I think when you get further down the way with progressive revelation one does.

"Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” "
This is a description of the original form of the animal that is in genesis 3:15. It makes it clear that this is an ANIMAL, that God made when he created the other animals in genesis. It doesn't say anything about this being a fallen angel, that was previously in the heavens, like Christians believe that Satan was.
Most Christians I think would agree that it wasn't talking about Satan exactly but an animal creature with intelligence which was yielding to the devil.. Yes it was a physical creature but behind it was devilish powers.

In Genesis 3:14:
So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

This is describing the condition of this animal AFTER it has been cursed, which is what we see in SNAKES today. This does NOT match the description of Satan in Job, where Satan is described as an Angel who roams the earth. It does not say in Job that Satan crawls on his belly.
I'd say 95 % of Christians would agree with you there. Nearly all acknowledge that Satan was influencing the physical creature and that they weren't exactly the same. Demons would be in people or animals pigs, and in Jesus ministry he'd cast them out of people. Some would call it demon possession. So a wrong spirit being within a physical earth being is understood and it's accepted that it's happened .

It also makes it clear in Job that Satan & God are on speaking terms. They are not arch enemies in Job.
There's not enemies? Why because there conversations that happen between them in the spirit realm? That doesn't mean God isn't opposed to everything Satan stands for. There's a reason why this has taken place for a period of time for God has allowed a period of demonstration to play out. But there is no sense in which God doesn't view Satan as an enemy to all his plans.
The fact that god refers to only Eves seed in the above passage, is because god is only talking to Eve & the Serpent. He is not addressing Adam in this verse. it has nothing to do with a virgin birth.
Don't agree at all. He's talking to Eve because the womb is the doorway by which the Son of God would come into this world. God gave the Earth (really meaning I believer the physical universe to man) and to function here in legal sense God had to become a man.....that only takes place by coming through the womb of a woman.

The word "he" as in "he will crush your head" is just a collective term for all of eves descendants.
Then why didn't it use the Hebrew word innun: THEY which would be plural to say so? ( אִנּוּן )

Why did it use the Hebrew word, : ( הוּא ) singular hu or hi (hoo)
Definition: he, she, it

So it's SINGULAR meaning one would do this.....which would have to be the Lord Jesus Christ the Messiah.


There is NOTHING in the old testament to suggest that this is a prophecy about The Messiah.
I'd say it does. They knew it would have to mean God was speaking of a deliverer.
 
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Lilith2006

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Then why didn't it use the Hebrew word innun: THEY which would be plural to say so? ( אִנּוּן )

Why did it use the Hebrew word, : ( הוּא ) singular hu or hi (hoo)
Definition: he, she, it

So it's SINGULAR meaning one would do this.....which would have to be the Lord Jesus Christ the Messiah.



I'd say it does. They knew it would have to mean God was speaking of a deliverer.
Can you please tell me your source for the Hebrew translation?
 
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Lilith2006

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I think when you get further down the way with progressive revelation one does.
To claim progressive revelation, you have to be able to prove that the verses that you claim to be revelation are to be interpreted the way that you claim they are to be interpreted. This is just another assertion by Christians, that has to be proven with evidence. The majority of Jewish people don't agree.

I'd say 95 % of Christians would agree with you there. Nearly all acknowledge that Satan was influencing the physical creature and that they weren't exactly the same. Demons would be in people or animals pigs, and in Jesus ministry he'd cast them out of people. Some would call it demon possession. So a wrong spirit being within a physical earth being is understood and it's accepted that it's happened .

If God created the garden of Eden perfect, & all of his creation that was in the garden of Eden was perfect, then it is not possible for the snake to be as you say. Otherwise you have to admit that the Garden of Eden was flawed, & gods creation was also flawed. So the garden of Eden was ALREADY flawed & full of demons & sin BEFORE Eve & Adam sinned.
 
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Lilith2006

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There's not enemies? Why because there conversations that happen between them in the spirit realm? That doesn't mean God isn't opposed to everything Satan stands for. There's a reason why this has taken place for a period of time for God has allowed a period of demonstration to play out. But there is no sense in which God doesn't view Satan as an enemy to all his plans.
I am pretty sure that if God & Satan are in total opposition to one another as it is claimed in the christian bible, that god would not invite him to the council of angels, & allow Satan to do whatever he wants. The only reason that Satan cursed Job's life, was because God gave tacit permission to Satan to do what he did to Job. Satan would not have acted without Gods permission. If Satan acts poorly today, it is still with Gods permission & tacit approval to do so.
Don't agree at all. He's talking to Eve because the womb is the doorway by which the Son of God would come into this world. God gave the Earth (really meaning I believer the physical universe to man) and to function here in legal sense God had to become a man.....that only takes place by coming through the womb of a woman.
Again you are just making assertions, & a circular argument. All you are saying is "I believe that this is a prophesy about the Messiah, therefore it IS a prophesy about the Messiah, therefore I believe that this is what it means, & because if it IS a prophecy about the messiah, it has to mean this.
A muslim can use the same circular argument to claim that it is a prophecy of Mohammad, & not the Messiah. You are twisting the scriptures into a knot, to make it fit into your interpretation. I have not had to do anything of this sort. My interpretation comes from simply reading the exact text & without having to re-interpret anything.
 
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Lilith2006

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Jesus rose from the dead. Muhammed burns in hell. That's why Jesus is the promised seed of the woman. That's all I have to say on this subject.
So you are saying that you can not support your assertion that Genesis 3:15 is about Jesus, because you have no evidence to justify your position as to why it should be interpreted that way. Is that your position?
 
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Lilith2006

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You are under no obligation to accept the Christian interpretation. But you asked why Christians interpret it this way, and so I provided an answer to that question.

-CryptoLutheran
I am asking why the Christian interpretation is more valid than my interpretation. If I am wrong, you should be able to look at the points that i have made, & pick them apart & explain why I should use the Christian interpretation. As you have made no attempt to do so, am I to assume that you cannot find any fault with my reasoning?
 
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Lilith2006

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You're right. Some folks really don't know how to read the Bible. But that's typical with much of humanity. Not everyone has the same access to scholarly resources, and not everyone has the same comprehension skills for reading (or hearing) everything and anything they come across, even when they're sitting in a high school classroom studying Shakespeare. We all need teachers to help us expand our hermeneutical acumen.

Of course, where the Bible is concerned, some issues are simply concealed in cryptic language and we all have to wrestle with it; none of us will be able to completely figure it all out.
It is not helpful when Christians constantly quote single verses, & don't provide any context to the verse, when trying to convince others. They do not encourage others to read the surrounding verses either. I suspect that this is on purpose, since if you read the surrounding verses, the context is usually completely different to what is claimed by the person quoting it.
 
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Lilith2006

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Then why didn't it use the Hebrew word innun: THEY which would be plural to say so? ( אִנּוּן )

Why did it use the Hebrew word, : ( הוּא ) singular hu or hi (hoo)
Definition: he, she, it

So it's SINGULAR meaning one would do this.....which would have to be the Lord Jesus Christ the Messiah.
Exodus 4:22 Then say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the Lord says: Israel is my firstborn son,

In the above passage, The nation of Israel is referred to in singular, & also a male. This type of language is used throughout the Old Testament.
You also talk as though there has only ever been one male who has ever lived on earth. Even if it DID mean a singular man (it doesn't), it could also be referring to one of Eves sons, such as Cain or Abel.
 
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Lilith2006

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I am not talking about the English translations, I plainly stated, in the unaltered Hebrew verse 4:1 states Eve says i have acquired a man Jehovah. English and Jewish Bible translators have added with the help of The Lord



If Eve is talking about jesus in Genesis 4:1, why did she say this when she gave birth to Cain, who was cursed by God for killing Abel. How can jesus be sinless if he is carrying the curse of Cain?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Here is the full reasoning as to why i interpret the verse the way that I do here: Genesis 3:15

I did not use any scholarly resources, OR ask advice from any Rabbi. This is just the interpretation from a plain reading of the text. If you have to do fancy somersaults in order to interpret the text, so that it comes out with the meaning that you WANT it to, so it suits YOUR theological understanding, then you are corrupting the bible
Lilit, I'd kindly suggest you also go ask your Rabbi if your interpretation suffices. Otherwise, if you have no support for your own view, then you may being tending to be solipsistic about your own correctness in how to read and understand a text. In fact, it'd be the same in a literary and/or humanities class with the study of Shakespeare or The Illiad or the Dhammapada, or Mary Shelley's, "Frankenstein."

And we don't want to rely on solipsism to understand literary contexts. In fact, if we're aware of the idea of "contexts" then we should be become even more aware that "context" is much more than just reading a sentence or two before and after a sentence we want to understand in a piece of literature. I'm sure you already know this from your own classroom experiences at high school.

Why do we have to become aware that contexts are socially multi-fold with any piece of literature? ... because no author, anywhere, at anytime, ever, wrote in a complete social vacuum. Human life and human brains just don't work that way.

Fortunately, both you and I already know this.

There are texts in the bible that are difficult to understand, & you may need help to understand them correctly, however the person helping you to interpret it has to be able to point to supporting passages in order to SUPPORT the interpretation. Not just come up with interpretations that suit your theology, & that no normal person would come up with, if they were not told how to interpret it.
That's true, but even with those principles in mind, if this basic sort of support you're referring to is all we use when reading, we are barely scratch the surface in all that needs to be taken into account where acknowledging that "context(s)" need to be engaged.
The Old Testament (Hebrew Tanakh) is also stand alone. You can not use passages from the New Testament in order to interpret the Old Testament. That would be like a Mormon saying that you have to use the Book of Mormon to interpret the New Testament. I am sure that no Christian would agree to this, so as a Jew, I dont agree to Christians using the New Testament to interpret the Tanakh.

I could agree to it. But, I'm a philosopher who studies Hermenuetics and Biblical Exegesis; and I've always been open to hearing what Jewish Rabbis have to say.

Ultimately, even subjectively, you'll have to decide how it is that you think God is directing you to handle and read the Bible. Just keep in mind that there's a chance that both you and I are wrong.
 
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tampasteve

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Hey everyone, I do want to point out the Statement of Purpose for this particular forum and remind that it is NOT intended as a forum to debate theology. No one has really strayed past the rules at this point, but I just wanted to place them as a reminder:
This is a forum where non-Christian Seekers are encouraged to ask questions about those aspects of the Christian faith which seem hard to understand or accept, and where Christian members (see Faith groups list) can enter into discussion with them on these questions. The primary focus of this forum is Christian evangelism and discipleship, not to debate Christian Theology or challenge, attack, or argue against, Christianity.

We recognize that sincere non-Christian seekers are looking for real answers, and the first reply given may be insufficient to achieve this. It is acceptable for the Original Poster (OP) to probe the answers given, and to continue the discussion on lines which help to clarify their understanding of the Christian faith. If another non-Christian seeker wishes to ask questions about the Christian faith, they may start their own thread. No more than one non-Christian Seeker (the OP) may post in a thread.

AMBASSADOR HAT OFF
 
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2PhiloVoid

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It is not helpful when Christians constantly quote single verses, & don't provide any context to the verse, when trying to convince others. They do not encourage others to read the surrounding verses either. I suspect that this is on purpose, since if you read the surrounding verses, the context is usually completely different to what is claimed by the person quoting it.

Yes, you're correct. That is many times the case. It's a big problem. And that's why we all owe it to ourselves to study---or at least be aware of---the History of Biblical Interpretation (or in this case, the History of Jewish traditional and interpretation of the Old Testament).

This is why I have books like that of Rabbi Eckstein sitting on my shelf, among others; so I can better understand the contemporary viewpoints of modern Jewish people, folks who are also diversified into several of their own denominations (like Conservative Judaism, or Reformed Judaism, or Orthodox Judaism, etc. )

Reference

Eckstein, Rabbi Yechiel. (1984). What Christians Should Know About Jews and Judaism. Waco, TX: Word Publishers.

Then we have to study the area of scholarship that deals with the New Testament writers "use" of the Old Testament. And that does get rather sticky. But for those who are more intellectually and philosophically inclined, it's always a good brain excercise for those interested in understanding the conceptual and literary infrastructure of the many books in the Bible.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I am asking why the Christian interpretation is more valid than my interpretation. If I am wrong, you should be able to look at the points that i have made, & pick them apart & explain why I should use the Christian interpretation. As you have made no attempt to do so, am I to assume that you cannot find any fault with my reasoning?

It's more that the Exploring Christianity board isn't meant for debate, so engaging in debate with your points would violate forum rules.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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d taylor

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If Eve is talking about jesus in Genesis 4:1, why did she say this when she gave birth to Cain, who was cursed by God for killing Abel. How can jesus be sinless if he is carrying the curse of Cain?

You can read this commentary on 4:1 it will save time for me now, from having to type out a long reply

Genesis 4 (1)+.jpg


Genesis 4 (2)+.jpg


Genesis 4 (3)+.jpg


Genesis 4(4)+.jpg
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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Some christians have been telling me that there are prophecies in the old testament that are prophecies of Jesus. One of these is Genesis 3:15.
I know this directly doesn't answer your questions, but I wanted to point some texts to you that point to Messiah being God, the second person of trinity.

God created humanity, and He warned them that if they sin, they will surely die. The punishment for sin is therefore death. God is just and He must punish every sin. So how can a just God forgive sinners?

For God to forgive us, there must be an attonment for sins. He forgives us freely, but it costed Him everything. Even you as a Jew will agree that repentance of sin is important and it is God who washes us of sin. But someone must pay for the sin. Either you will pay eternally in hell or someone else will pay for you, but it needs to be someone without sin, because if a sinner dies, it is just. Jesus being God, being without sin, took God's wrath for our sins paid them on the cross. Since a sinless person died, the penalty of death was invalid, thus He defeated death and was resurrected. Jesus the only righteouss - and everyone who believes in Him and repents is righteouss, without sin, because Jesus paid for it on the cross. That is what Isaiah 53 is about.

Isaiah 53 is the biography of the Messiah, the servent of the Lord, it lays out His arrival, and His rejection, and His death, and His ressuraction, and His ascention, and His coronation. It explains the gospel - He was wounded for our transgressions, He was wounded for our inquities. The chastiment for our peace fell on Him, and by His wounds we are healed. That sounds exactly like the Christian doctorine of justification because that is exactly what happened to Jesus. And then it says that He was cut of, and then it says He will see His offspring. If His life was cut of, how could He see His offspring? That'a the ressuraction. We even have the description of the Messiah, that there was nothing in Him that we would desire Him and we considered Him as nothing. Isaiah 53 describes the crucifixacion exactly as it happened to Jesus. You ever wondered why God would crush the Messiah for our sins? Anf why does it fit fit what happened to Jesus so perfectly?

Zechariah 12 10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep.' God says we pierced Him. Because we crucified God. And the Jews will say 'we thought He was stricken by God, we thought we were doing the work of God by taking His life, because He was a blasphemer, now we see He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our inquities.

So the Messiah was wounded for our sins, and died for them and was ressuracted. Exactly as Jesus.

Then we have psalm 118 22-23 “The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the LORD had done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes.” The Messiah was rejected. And as described in Zechariah 3 9 For behold, on the stone that I have set before Joshua, on a single stone with seven eyes,
He is a rejected stone, a stone of stumbling, a stone of refuge, a destroying stone, and a foundation stone. Here He is the precious foundation stone, with “seven eyes” symbolic of His omniscience and infinite intelligence. According to Zechariah 3 9 then, the Messiah is God, because only God is omniscience.

Furthermore, psalm 45 7 reads, 'Therefore God, your God, has anointed you' God annointed God? Wait what? This verse makes sense if there is no trinity.

Psalm 110 is similar. 'The Lord says to my Lord'

And so on. I can point out more texts in old testament that show there is a trinity, Jesus is Messiah, and Messiah is God who died for our sins. But this is enough for now. Please read it and think about Isaiah 53, Zecheriah 12 and how it fits Jesus and the Gospel.

God bless
 
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Lilith2006

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Lilit, I'd kindly suggest you also go ask your Rabbi if your interpretation suffices. Otherwise, if you have no support for your own view, then you may being tending to be solipsistic about your own correctness in how to read and understand a text. In fact, it'd be the same in a literary and/or humanities class with the study of Shakespeare or The Illiad or the Dhammapada, or Mary Shelley's, "Frankenstein."
I am well aware of the meaning of the text from a Jewish point of view. I learnt this text from a young child, and no Rabbi I have encountered has EVER rereferred to this text being about Satan & The Messiah. I was invited to a bible study by a friend, & they covered Genesis 3:15 in the bible study. As I already knew Genesis 3 well, I raised the other points, & they were unable to answer them, & kept trying to direct me back to 3:15, & saying don't worry about the other verses, just concentrate on this verse.
It appears to me that the Christian church DOES NOT WANT people who will question what they are being told, they want people who will mindlessly believe what they are told without questioning. The other unpleasant trait I find is that I have never found a Christian who will ever admit the possibility that they COULD be wrong about something. They always double down, & then refuse to engage at all when they realise that they have no evidence to prove that what they are saying is correct.

I don't know why Christians are prepared to die on a hill to insist that Genesis 3:15 is about Satan & the Mesiah, when they have no supporting evidence for it. I am sure that the whole Christian faith does not depend on this ONE verse.

I am Jewish, but I am not welded onto the Jewish religion. I have never been very religious, & if problems in the Tanakh are pointed out to me, I will read the text carefully, & all surrounding texts, several times, analyse it, & if I think that they have a point I will agree with them. I have never insisted that my beliefs are the correct belief, however if all the evidence is in your favour, & the other side has no evidence to support their point of view, then common sense supports the side that has all of the evidence that is in their favour.

If a Christian wants me to change MY religion to THEIR religion, which is what I presume the purpose of inviting me to their bible study was, then they have to do much better than refusing to answer questions & telling you to ignore texts that don't suit them, & refusing to concede that they could sometimes be wrong about things.

If I am in the wrong religion, what is the point of changing to ANOTHER wrong religion. I am not saying that the Jewish religion is the wrong one, & I am not at all convinced from the evidence so far shown to me that the Christian religion is the right one, because I am not convinced that all of the verses that Christians claim are prophecies of Jesus actually ARE prophecies of Jesus. I am sure that most Christians sincerely believe that they are, because most seem to be content to believe whatever the church tells them, & they never do an in depth study including all surrounding verses & question what they have been told by the church.
 
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Lilith2006

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I know this directly doesn't answer your questions, but I wanted to point some texts to you that point to Messiah being God, the second person of trinity.

God created humanity, and He warned them that if they sin, they will surely die. The punishment for sin is therefore death. God is just and He must punish every sin. So how can a just God forgive sinners?

For God to forgive us, there must be an attonment for sins. He forgives us freely, but it costed Him everything. Even you as a Jew will agree that repentance of sin is important and it is God who washes us of sin. But someone must pay for the sin. Either you will pay eternally in hell or someone else will pay for you, but it needs to be someone without sin, because if a sinner dies, it is just. Jesus being God, being without sin, took God's wrath for our sins paid them on the cross. Since a sinless person died, the penalty of death was invalid, thus He defeated death and was resurrected. Jesus the only righteouss - and everyone who believes in Him and repents is righteouss, without sin, because Jesus paid for it on the cross. That is what Isaiah 53 is about.

Isaiah 53 is the biography of the Messiah, the servent of the Lord, it lays out His arrival, and His rejection, and His death, and His ressuraction, and His ascention, and His coronation. It explains the gospel - He was wounded for our transgressions, He was wounded for our inquities. The chastiment for our peace fell on Him, and by His wounds we are healed. That sounds exactly like the Christian doctorine of justification because that is exactly what happened to Jesus. And then it says that He was cut of, and then it says He will see His offspring. If His life was cut of, how could He see His offspring? That'a the ressuraction. We even have the description of the Messiah, that there was nothing in Him that we would desire Him and we considered Him as nothing. Isaiah 53 describes the crucifixacion exactly as it happened to Jesus. You ever wondered why God would crush the Messiah for our sins? Anf why does it fit fit what happened to Jesus so perfectly?

Zechariah 12 10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep.' God says we pierced Him. Because we crucified God. And the Jews will say 'we thought He was stricken by God, we thought we were doing the work of God by taking His life, because He was a blasphemer, now we see He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our inquities.

So the Messiah was wounded for our sins, and died for them and was ressuracted. Exactly as Jesus.

Then we have psalm 118 22-23 “The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the LORD had done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes.” The Messiah was rejected. And as described in Zechariah 3 9 For behold, on the stone that I have set before Joshua, on a single stone with seven eyes,
He is a rejected stone, a stone of stumbling, a stone of refuge, a destroying stone, and a foundation stone. Here He is the precious foundation stone, with “seven eyes” symbolic of His omniscience and infinite intelligence. According to Zechariah 3 9 then, the Messiah is God, because only God is omniscience.

Furthermore, psalm 45 7 reads, 'Therefore God, your God, has anointed you' God annointed God? Wait what? This verse makes sense if there is no trinity.

Psalm 110 is similar. 'The Lord says to my Lord'

And so on. I can point out more texts in old testament that show there is a trinity, Jesus is Messiah, and Messiah is God who died for our sins. But this is enough for now. Please read it and think about Isaiah 53, Zecheriah 12 and how it fits Jesus and the Gospel.

God bless
Thank you for your reply. I will study these verses & surrounding verses to make sure I have the correct context, & get back to you.
 
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Benjamin Müller

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I don't really know what to say in regards to Genesis 3:15 that some posts haven't covered, but I would like to ask the original poster:

Why is Elohim in the plural?
Why is is it written 'Let US make man in OUR image'

Who is 'Us'?
 
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