Prove me wrong: Every possible starting point to the 70 Weeks Prophecy faces insurmountable problems

[Saber Truth Tiger]

First, I don't consider anything on wikipedia as authorative. But even in text it confirms 609 BC as the end of the Assyrian empire.
"When Harran was captured by the alliance in 609 BC,[7] ending the Assyrian Empire, remnants of the Assyrian army joined Carchemish, a city under Egyptian rule, on the Euphrates. Egypt, a former vassal of Assyria, was allied with Assyrian King Ashur-uballit II and marched in 609 BC to his aid against the Babylonians"

Wikipedia is not the end all or say all in matters of dispute because anyone can enter anything they want and that includes misinformation. However, I still use Wikipedia because I don't believe it just because it is in Wikipedia but if the author of a certain section offers links to support his statement I will read his links and see whether they are worth believing or not. It's not just Wikipedia, but anywhere else on the Internet is prone to making false claims. Yet, we have discernment and wisdom to differentiate between most claims on the Internet, what is truth and what is false. The same can apply to Wikipedia the same discernment to separate the lies from the truth in Wikipedia.

You can't just dismiss all of Wikipedia because there is a lot of misinformation in it. When you read Wikipedia check first their links that are meant to support their claim then read the link and use your discernment to determine truth from falsehood. I have made a lot of edits on Wikipedia's Atlanta Braves 1982 article and periodically I check to see if anyone else has made edits that make false claims. There was one time false information in the Atlanta Braves 1982 article and I edited them and corrected them. Last time I checked, the article was spot on. I don't accept anything from Wikipedia if it is not supported by evidence with a link to the source of their claim.

For example, I was studying Wikipedia about a certain document that "proved" that the Sadducees were in control of Temple worship for some years before the Pharisees gained control. But it didn't offer any links to support that claim. It mentioned that sometime in the first century CE there was a certain Jewish Pharisee rabbi that was able to end the Sadducees rule of observing the waving of the Omer after Jesus had resurrected. The name of that rabbi, according to Wikipedia was Yoanan ben Zakkai. So I looked up that name in Wikipedia and although it admitted that Yoanan ben Zakkai was a real person who lived in the first century CE, another web page claimed that Yoanan was born in 30 CE and died 90 CE. So, if he truly was instrumental in doing away with the Sadducee method of waving of the Omer then common sense would be that the changing of the guard happened sometime between the death of Jesus and the end of the Temple worship in 70 CE. However, I didn't find that anywhere when I read my own copy of the Megillat Taanit. So, in this case, I was able to prove Wikipedia to be peddling false information. This means I check up on Wikipedia before I post something from them. Many times their accuracy is painstakingly dictated with legitimate links to reliable websites.

Megillat Taanit - Wikipedia The Wikipedia article on the Megillat Taanit

and the Wikipedia article on Yoanan ben Zakkai Yohanan ben Zakkai - Wikipedia

This is how to approach Wikipedia without throwing the baby out with the bath water when you reject Wikipedia no matter how accurate or inaccurate it may be.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

What is the source of your quote ? In Jeremiah 46 is the battle of Carchemish...

2 Against Egypt, against the army of Pharaohnecho king of Egypt, which was by the river Euphrates in Carchemish, which Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon smote in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah.


Jehoiakim was the king of Judah, 609-598. The fourth year of Jehoiakim would be 605. As I show on my chart - 605. And with what the Wikipedia article dates the battle of Carchemish - 605.



View attachment 336541

This may help. When and how was Judah conquered by the Babylonians? | GotQuestions.org
and this: What was the Babylonian captivity/exile? | GotQuestions.org

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

What is the source of your quote ? In Jeremiah 46 is the battle of Carchemish...

2 Against Egypt, against the army of Pharaohnecho king of Egypt, which was by the river Euphrates in Carchemish, which Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon smote in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah.

Jehoiakim was the king of Judah, 609-598. The fourth year of Jehoiakim would be 605. As I show on my chart - 605. And with what the Wikipedia article dates the battle of Carchemish - 605. The encyclopedia Britannica has the same thing - 605.

I improved my chart - by annotating "battle of Carchemiah" in the 605 event.



View attachment 336542L

LOL. It's from the wikipedia source you quoted. Come on, didn't you read it?

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

This may help. When and how was Judah conquered by the Babylonians? | GotQuestions.org
and this: What was the Babylonian captivity/exile? | GotQuestions.org

Ya, the same faulty understanding that is so common. Does no one read the actual text of the Bible anymore?

Neither of those source (supposed experts) even addressed Leviticus 26 - where it was predicted what would happen during this time of judgement.
[Lev 26:31-35 LSB] 31 'And I will give your cities over as a waste and will make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell your soothing aromas. 32 'And I will make the land desolate, so that your enemies who inhabit it will [themselves] feel desolate because of it. 33 'You, however, I will scatter among the nations and will draw out a sword after you, as your land becomes desolate and your cities become waste. 34 'Then the land will make up for its sabbaths all the days of the desolation, and you will be in your enemies' land; then the land will rest and make up for its sabbaths. 35 'All the days of [its] desolation it will observe the rest which it did not observe on your sabbaths, while you were living on it.

Notice the very important point God says, the time of desolation STARTS when the population is in exile to the land of their enemies. Not when a small percentage has been put into exile. When the majority have been removed from their homeland. This happened in 586 BC - when the temple and city were burned and destroyed. That's when the time of desolation started. From 586 BC to 539 BC (the end of the Babylonian empire) is not a period of 70 years. There is no way to munge the numbers to get 70 years. It's just not possible.

 

[David Kent]

Pharaoh Necho went twice to Carchemish to battle, I think it was 6 years apart, but it may have been more.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Ya, the same faulty understanding that is so common. Does no one read the actual text of the Bible anymore?

Neither of those source (supposed experts) even addressed Leviticus 26 - where it was predicted what would happen during this time of judgement.
[Lev 26:31-35 LSB] 31 'And I will give your cities over as a waste and will make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell your soothing aromas. 32 'And I will make the land desolate, so that your enemies who inhabit it will [themselves] feel desolate because of it. 33 'You, however, I will scatter among the nations and will draw out a sword after you, as your land becomes desolate and your cities become waste. 34 'Then the land will make up for its sabbaths all the days of the desolation, and you will be in your enemies' land; then the land will rest and make up for its sabbaths. 35 'All the days of [its] desolation it will observe the rest which it did not observe on your sabbaths, while you were living on it.

Notice the very important point God says, the time of desolation STARTS when the population is in exile to the land of their enemies. Not when a small percentage has been put into exile. When the majority have been removed from their homeland. This happened in 586 BC - when the temple and city were burned and destroyed. That's when the time of desolation started. From 586 BC to 539 BC (the end of the Babylonian empire) is not a period of 70 years. There is no way to munge the numbers to get 70 years. It's just not possible.

More liberal scholars do not accept Daniel's date in the first chapter of the Babylonian 605 BCE siege. There is absolutely no evidence in Babylonian records of a siege in 605 BCE and there is Babylonian support for the 598 BCE siege and the 587 BCE siege. These liberal scholars claim that Daniel is fiction and they tell us if there had actually been a siege of Jerusalem in 605 BCE there would have been records in the Babylonian histories about it. The Jehovah Witnesses place the final siege of Jerusalem in 607 BCE, not 587 BCE and they count 70 years from 607 BCE to 537 BCE. I don't agree with their conclusions but they are contradicted by 99% of Bible Historians. Okay, that may be an exaggeration but you get the idea.

 

[Douggg]

LOL. It's from the wikipedia source you quoted. Come on, didn't you read it?

You could have been clear that you were quoting from the wikipedia article stating that the battle of Carchemish took place in 605.

The quote from the article containing 609 was about pre-activity to the the battle of Carchemish in 605.

 

[Douggg]

This may help. When and how was Judah conquered by the Babylonians? | GotQuestions.org
and this: What was the Babylonian captivity/exile? | GotQuestions.org

Hi Saber Truth,

I read through the articles. But both contain the misconception of 70 years "of exile" - instead of what Jeremiah terms as 70 years "of servitude" in Jeremiah 25. i.e. 70 years of Jews being in servitude mode.

There were 70 years "of servitude", of which 60 years were in actual exile to Babylon.

The 60 years of exile ran from 597 to 538/537 when Cyrus released the Jews from captivity.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So if we count back 70 years from 538, we come to 608 as the year that the Babylonians first began their dominion over Judah, to put the Jews into servitude mode.

For someone like Daniel when the Babylonians first began their dominion over Judah would have been evident, as it was near history to him, so that Daniel in Daniel 9 knew the 70 years of servitude were about up. (obviously, they did not use BC/BCE years, but in the various chapters and books in the Tanach, they put everything in terms of what year relative to different kings. So Daniel 9:1 is relative to the first year of Darius the Mede)

But for us, it is like a puzzle because for us it is ancient history. That is what I am trying to do with my chart - solve the puzzle.

I think this is pretty much right...

 

[anetazo]

The one week of Daniel is of revelation chapter 9. The 7 year tribulation of antichrist is shortened to 5 month period.
Revelation chapter 9:5. It's 5 month period for satan as antichrist near future.
Jesus shortened the time.

 

[Douggg]

The one week of Daniel is of revelation chapter 9. The 7 year tribulation of antichrist is shortened to 5 month period.
Revelation chapter 9:5. It's 5 month period for satan as antichrist near future.
Jesus shortened the time.

anetazo,

1. the 70th week of Daniel - is not tribulation, nor a tribulation period. Those coined phrases began in the 1960's, mainly from popular commentators of that time. The first three years will actually be a time of peace and safety of a false messianic age.

2. the term is not tribulation, but great tribulation. It will be limited to 1335 days or else no flesh on earth will survive.

3. the 5 months in Revelation 9 is the length of time that the flesh tormenting locust will torment men.

4. Satan will not be Antichrist. The Antichrist will be a Jew who at a certain point becomes used by Satan, but not incarnated by Satan.

Satan's presence on earth during the great tribulation will be as incarnating the image of the beast-king (the former Antichrist at that time). People who will be worshiping the image at that time, will be unaware that they are worshiping Satan.

 

[David Kent]

What is the source of your quote ? In Jeremiah 46 is the battle of Carchemish...

2 Against Egypt, against the army of Pharaohnecho king of Egypt, which was by the river Euphrates in Carchemish, which Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon smote in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah.

Jehoiakim was the king of Judah, 609-598. The fourth year of Jehoiakim would be 605. As I show on my chart - 605. And with what the Wikipedia article dates the battle of Carchemish - 605. The encyclopedia Britannica has the same thing - 605.

I improved my chart - by annotating "battle of Carchemiah" in the 605 event.



View attachment 336551

There were two battles of Carchemish one in the time of Josiah, when he was killed and one in the fourth year of Jehoiakim when Pharaoh Necho was killed.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

There were two battles of Carchemish one in the time of Josiah, when he was killed and one in the fourth year of Jehoiakim when Pharaoh Necho was killed.

Time sure has changed. In those days the leaders of the country would lead their armies into battle and risk their own lives. Even up to the time of Napoleon the leaders of some of the nations would be present for the big battle. But in the 20th and 21st centuries the leaders remain comfortable far away from the battle and direct it from their capitol.

 

[Douggg]

There were two battles of Carchemish one in the time of Josiah, when he was killed and one in the fourth year of Jehoiakim when Pharaoh Necho was killed.

David, what the bible says about Josiah and him being killed in a battle is found in two places... one place is general, and the other place more specific that he died in Jerusalem from archers arrows inflicted at the battle at "Megiddo". It does say against Carchemish in 2Chronicles35:20, but it then says in the valley of Megiddo in verse 22. Megiddo would be in Israel.

Carchemish was a kingdom of a mixed group of syrian people, as far as I can tell. What do you think ? It's all kind of confusing to me.

Pharoah Neco was going to fight against the Carchemish people. But for some reason Joshiah, the king of Judah, got involved.

Carchemish - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

2Kings23: 29

29 In his days Pharaohnechoh king of Egypt went up against the king of Assyria to the river Euphrates: and king Josiah went against him; and he slew him at Megiddo, when he had seen him.


2Chronicles35:20-27

20 After all this, when Josiah had prepared the temple, Necho king of Egypt came up to fight against Carchemish by Euphrates: and Josiah went out against him.

21 But he sent ambassadors to him, saying, What have I to do with thee, thou king of Judah? I come not against thee this day, but against the house wherewith I have war: for God commanded me to make haste: forbear thee from meddling with God, who is with me, that he destroy thee not.

22 Nevertheless Josiah would not turn his face from him, but disguised himself, that he might fight with him, and hearkened not unto the words of Necho from the mouth of God, and came to fight in the valley of Megiddo.

23 And the archers shot at king Josiah; and the king said to his servants, Have me away; for I am sore wounded.

24 His servants therefore took him out of that chariot, and put him in the second chariot that he had; and they brought him to Jerusalem, and he died, and was buried in one of the sepulchres of his fathers. And all Judah and Jerusalem mourned for Josiah.

25 And Jeremiah lamented for Josiah: and all the singing men and the singing women spake of Josiah in their lamentations to this day, and made them an ordinance in Israel: and, behold, they are written in the lamentations.

26 Now the rest of the acts of Josiah, and his goodness, according to that which was written in the law of the LORD,

27 And his deeds, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of the kings of Israel and Judah.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

David, what the bible says about Josiah and him being killed in a battle is found in two places... one place is general, and the other place more specific that he died in Jerusalem from archers arrows inflicted at the battle at "Megiddo". It does say against Carchemish in 2Chronicles35:20, but it then says in the valley of Megiddo in verse 22. Megiddo would be in Israel.

Carchemish was a kingdom of a mixed group of syrian people, as far as I can tell. What do you think ? It's all kind of confusing to me.

Pharoah Neco was going to fight against the Carchemish people. But for some reason Joshiah, the king of Judah, got involved.

Carchemish - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

2Kings23: 29

29 In his days Pharaohnechoh king of Egypt went up against the king of Assyria to the river Euphrates: and king Josiah went against him; and he slew him at Megiddo, when he had seen him.


2Chronicles35:20-27

20 After all this, when Josiah had prepared the temple, Necho king of Egypt came up to fight against Carchemish by Euphrates: and Josiah went out against him.

21 But he sent ambassadors to him, saying, What have I to do with thee, thou king of Judah? I come not against thee this day, but against the house wherewith I have war: for God commanded me to make haste: forbear thee from meddling with God, who is with me, that he destroy thee not.

22 Nevertheless Josiah would not turn his face from him, but disguised himself, that he might fight with him, and hearkened not unto the words of Necho from the mouth of God, and came to fight in the valley of Megiddo.

23 And the archers shot at king Josiah; and the king said to his servants, Have me away; for I am sore wounded.

24 His servants therefore took him out of that chariot, and put him in the second chariot that he had; and they brought him to Jerusalem, and he died, and was buried in one of the sepulchres of his fathers. And all Judah and Jerusalem mourned for Josiah.

25 And Jeremiah lamented for Josiah: and all the singing men and the singing women spake of Josiah in their lamentations to this day, and made them an ordinance in Israel: and, behold, they are written in the lamentations.

26 Now the rest of the acts of Josiah, and his goodness, according to that which was written in the law of the LORD,

27 And his deeds, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of the kings of Israel and Judah.

Always changing the topic to something else. Never addressing anything that is shown to be against your pet views. It's pointless to discuss anything with people like this.

 

[Douggg]

Always changing the topic to something else. Never addressing anything that is shown to be against your pet views. It's pointless to discuss anything with people like this.

In my post #123, I suggested to you to start a new thread regarding your so-called Ezra 6:14 challenge. Why don't you try that ? Instead of trying impose your will in this thread. It will only take you a few minutes to open a new thread.

 

[Douggg]

For the purposes of dating the beginning of the 70 weeks from the appropriate year of the right decree, it is not necessary to pin down exactly when the terms of that right decree were completed - however long it took.

I have been revisiting and researching that wall completion issue.

In Nehemiah 1, God puts it into Nehemiah heart tor rebuild the wall. But Nehemiah is Shushan, the winter capital of the Persian kings who reigned over Babylon.

In Nehemiah 2, we find that Nehemiah in Shushan, in Artaxerxes court, and the topic came up about the wall, and Nehemiah was granted permission by Artaxerxes to return to Jerusalem to build it. In the text, that happened in the 20th year of Artaxerxes rule (465-424 BC) - so Nehemiah returned to Jerusalem 444 BC and started the rebuilding process.

In Nehemiah 6, after lot of headaches of regional opposition, and even some of the rich Jews, the wall was completed in fifty two days, verse 15.

So the wall was completed in 444 BC. My updated chart showing the wall finished... but the chart is still a work in progress.

 

[Douggg]

There were two battles of Carchemish one in the time of Josiah, when he was killed and one in the fourth year of Jehoiakim when Pharaoh Necho was killed.

David, I have researching this matter and I think I have figured out.

First of all Carchemish is a city located way north of Israel, on the upper euphrates.

Basically what happened was this. At the time of the Assyrian empire, their capital was in Nineveh. The Babylonians and Medes went up there in 612 BC and forced the Assyrians to move their capital west to a city called "Haran".

In 609 BC, the Babylonians and Medes captured "Haran" - ending the Assyrian Empire.

The remnants of the defeated Assyrian army - then went further west to Carchecmish - a city which was under Egyptian control. A long way from Egypt, huh?

So here comes the Babylonians and Medes to finish off the remnants and take Carchemish for themselves.

Pharoah Neco, seeing what was coming, took his Egyptian army and headed north through Israel to prevent Carchemish from falling into Babylonian hands

On Pharoah Neco's way north through Israel, Josiah decides to intervene for some reason, and has a battle with the en-route Egyptian army in Megiddo in Israel. And ends up being killed.

The Egyptians continue north to Carchemish on the upper euphrates. And there, at the battle of Carchemish, the Babylonian army lead by Nebuchadnezzar defeats the Egyptians and the remnant Assyrian army, and Pharoah Neco killed. In 605 BC.

So there is not two battles of Carchemish, but one.

____________________________________________________________________________

Makes a person wonder at all of the bloodshed in wars and battles in the history of man. When Jesus comes and rules the world, praise God, no more wars.




.

 

[David Kent]

David, what the bible says about Josiah and him being killed in a battle is found in two places... one place is general, and the other place more specific that he died in Jerusalem from archers arrows inflicted at the battle at "Megiddo". It does say against Carchemish in 2Chronicles35:20, but it then says in the valley of Megiddo in verse 22. Megiddo would be in Israel.

Carchemish was a kingdom of a mixed group of syrian people, as far as I can tell. What do you think ? It's all kind of confusing to me.

Pharoah Neco was going to fight against the Carchemish people. But for some reason Joshiah, the king of Judah, got involved.

Carchemish - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

2Kings23: 29

29 In his days Pharaohnechoh king of Egypt went up against the king of Assyria to the river Euphrates: and king Josiah went against him; and he slew him at Megiddo, when he had seen him.


2Chronicles35:20-27

20 After all this, when Josiah had prepared the temple, Necho king of Egypt came up to fight against Carchemish by Euphrates: and Josiah went out against him.

21 But he sent ambassadors to him, saying, What have I to do with thee, thou king of Judah? I come not against thee this day, but against the house wherewith I have war: for God commanded me to make haste: forbear thee from meddling with God, who is with me, that he destroy thee not.

22 Nevertheless Josiah would not turn his face from him, but disguised himself, that he might fight with him, and hearkened not unto the words of Necho from the mouth of God, and came to fight in the valley of Megiddo.

23 And the archers shot at king Josiah; and the king said to his servants, Have me away; for I am sore wounded.

24 His servants therefore took him out of that chariot, and put him in the second chariot that he had; and they brought him to Jerusalem, and he died, and was buried in one of the sepulchres of his fathers. And all Judah and Jerusalem mourned for Josiah.

25 And Jeremiah lamented for Josiah: and all the singing men and the singing women spake of Josiah in their lamentations to this day, and made them an ordinance in Israel: and, behold, they are written in the lamentations.

26 Now the rest of the acts of Josiah, and his goodness, according to that which was written in the law of the LORD,

27 And his deeds, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of the kings of Israel and Judah.

Necho wanted to traverse Israel on his way to Carchemish but Josiah tried to stop him and was killed at Herodotus mentions Necho who if I remember called him Nechab, he said there were two kings by that name.

 

[David Kent]

David, I have researching this matter and I think I have figured out.

First of all Carchemish is a city located way north of Israel, on the upper euphrates.

Basically what happened was this. At the time of the Assyrian empire, their capital was in Nineveh. The Babylonians and Medes went up there in 612 BC and forced the Assyrians to move their capital west to a city called "Haran".

In 609 BC, the Babylonians and Medes captured "Haran" - ending the Assyrian Empire.

The remnants of the defeated Assyrian army - then went further west to Carchecmish - a city which was under Egyptian control. A long way from Egypt, huh?

So here comes the Babylonians and Medes to finish off the remnants and take Carchemish for themselves.

Pharoah Neco, seeing what was coming, took his Egyptian army and headed north through Israel to prevent Carchemish from falling into Babylonian hands

On Pharoah Neco's way north through Israel, Josiah decides to intervene for some reason, and has a battle with the en-route Egyptian army in Megiddo in Israel. And ends up being killed.

The Egyptians continue north to Carchemish on the upper euphrates. And there, at the battle of Carchemish, the Babylonian army lead by Nebuchadnezzar defeats the Egyptians and the remnant Assyrian army, and Pharoah Neco killed. In 605 BC.

So there is not two battles of Carchemish, but one.

____________________________________________________________________________

Makes a person wonder at all of the bloodshed in wars and battles in the history of man. When Jesus comes and rules the world, praise God, no more wars.

One was in the time of Josiah and the other in the fourth year of his son

2 Chronicles 36:1-4 Then the people of the land took Jehoahaz the son of Josiah, and made him king in his father's stead in Jerusalem. Jehoahaz was twenty and three years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months in Jerusalem. And the king of Egypt put him down at Jerusalem, and condemned the land in an hundred talents of silver and a talent of gold. And the king of Egypt made Eliakim his brother king over Judah and Jerusalem, and turned his name to Jehoiakim. And Necho tookJehoahaz his brother, and carried him to Egypt.

As I see it. 593 BC. KJV margin.
Necho killed Josiah king on his way to Carchemish the people made Jehoahaz his son king. He reigned three months and Necho on his way back from battle deposed him and made Eliakim king and renamed him Jehoiakim and in his fourth year went again to battle at Carchemish and was killed KJV

Jer 46:2 Against Egypt, against the army of Pharaohnecho king of Egypt, which was by the river Euphrates in Carchemish, which Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon smote in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah. KJV margin 607 BC

Seems a discrepancy in dates in margin.

 

[Douggg]

One was in the time of Josiah and the other in the fourth year of his son

2 Chronicles 36:1-4 Then the people of the land took Jehoahaz the son of Josiah, and made him king in his father's stead in Jerusalem. Jehoahaz was twenty and three years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months in Jerusalem. And the king of Egypt put him down at Jerusalem, and condemned the land in an hundred talents of silver and a talent of gold. And the king of Egypt made Eliakim his brother king over Judah and Jerusalem, and turned his name to Jehoiakim. And Necho tookJehoahaz his brother, and carried him to Egypt.

As I see it. 593 BC. KJV margin.
Necho killed Josiah king on his way to Carchemish the people made Jehoahaz his son king. He reigned three months and Necho od his way back from battle deposed him and made Eliakim king and renamed him Jehoiakim and in his fourth year went again to battle at Carchemish and was killed KJV

Jer 46:2 Against Egypt, against the army of Pharaohnecho king of Egypt, which was by the river Euphrates in Carchemish, which Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon smote in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah. KJV margin 607 BC

Seems a discrepancy in dates in margin.

David, I am assuming that you are reading "commentary" on the text. If so, then I agree there is some discrepancy in the commentary.

btw, who was making the commentary ?