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The first heresy

Aaron112

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if the reason for doing it all is to please God

The Parable of the Two Sons​

28 “What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’

29 “‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

30 “Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.

31 “Which of the two did what his father wanted?”

“The first,” they answered.

Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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That's why many Sunday keeping Christians try so hard to convert Sabbath keepers because they feel that the Sabbath keepers are destined to hell for not trusting Christ. It has to be explained to them that keeping the Saturday Sabbath is a personal matter, that the keeper is happier (I don't know why for sure) than he is for meeting on Sunday. I have no issue with anyone who prefers Sunday over Saturday, as long as they don't condemn me for observing the Sabbath as a personal choice. Always remember Paul's words that one man esteems one day above all the other, another esteems every day alike, let every man be persuaded in his own mind. Also, Paul admonishes us to not judge one another on matters like the new moons or the sabbaths. So, if you are on this forum just to judge someone for keeping the Sabbath then you are in violation of Paul's commands. Likewise, it a Sabbath keeper judges you for observing Sunday, then he is in violation of the scripture. It is NOT, however, disrespectful of the scriptures to hold a civil (friendly) debate on the topic of keeping or not keeping the Sabbath and having verses from the Bible to back you up.

I started this thread, it is about the council in Jerusalem in the first century. It isn't a pro or anti sabbath thread but somehow it has been filled with a lot of sabbat discussion. My position on sabbath (Saturday) keeping for religious purposes is that it is likely part of the first heresy (Ebionism) which was, as expressed in the original post, about keeping dietary restrictions, getting circumcised, observing the feasts (including animal sacrifices), sabbath and new moon observances and so forth. The original posts concludes with this remark -
And what you you think we deal with today, as if the council never happened, for some. We deal with some people who want believers to get circumcised and obey the Law of Moses, observe Sabbaths, New Moons, feasts, and keep Kosher.​

So, the first heresy is with us again today, maybe it never really went away.
 
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Fervent

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I started this thread, it is about the council in Jerusalem in the first century. It isn't a pro or anti sabbath thread but somehow it has been filled with a lot of sabbat discussion. My position on sabbath (Saturday) keeping for religious purposes is that it is likely part of the first heresy (Ebionism) which was, as expressed in the original post, about keeping dietary restrictions, getting circumcised, observing the feasts (including animal sacrifices), sabbath and new moon observances and so forth. The original posts concludes with this remark -
And what you you think we deal with today, as if the council never happened, for some. We deal with some people who want believers to get circumcised and obey the Law of Moses, observe Sabbaths, New Moons, feasts, and keep Kosher.​

So, the first heresy is with us again today, maybe it never really went away.
It's a heresy built on building a false sense of holiness, so it is unsurprising it has never gone away. It's framed as an attempt to please God, but in reality it is self-serving because it is placing the observant into a position of separateness from the filthy non-observants. Which has a great appeal for men given to religious pride.
 
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Aaron112

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My position on sabbath (Saturday) keeping for religious purposes
Curiouser and curiouser..... did Yahweh's People who were Faithful Ones Honor Him and Observe all His Instructions
for religious purposes ?
The thought that it was "religious" does not seem right to me at all.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Curiouser and curiouser..... did Yahweh's People who were Faithful Ones Honor Him and Observe all His Instructions
for religious purposes ?
The thought that it was "religious" does not seem right to me at all.
Before Christ's resurrection the faithful did keep the Law as faithful obedience to God. They didn't play the games that the Pharisees who opposed Jesus did. They didn't demand Sabbath observance over and above works of mercy.

I do not have an objection to the word "religious". Law keeping was religious and still is, though now it is for a religion that is disappeared.
 
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Saber Truth Tiger

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It's a heresy built on building a false sense of holiness,
So, are you claiming someone who observes the Saturday Sabbath is a heretic? If so, I would love to see your evidence.
so it is unsurprising it has never gone away.
As long as religious Jews observe the Sabbath, it will never go away. Like you said, it is unsurprising that this is the case. Also, in the Millennium Gentiles will observe the Sabbath alongside Jews.

It's framed as an attempt to please God, but in reality it is self-serving because it is placing the observant into a position of separateness from the filthy non-observants.
Please explain how it is self-serving. You claim it is self serving because it places the Sabbath observer into a position of separateness from the filthy (?) non Sabbath (Sunday) observants, Please provide some proof for this claim. Where is your evidence that observing the Sabbath places the Sabbath Keeper into a position of separateness from those who worship on Sunday? How about Christians who speak in tongues? Is the reason for them doing that is that it places the tongues speaker into a position of separateness from the "flithy" non tongues speaker? Do Christians have different doctrines from each other because it places each one that observes doctrine X from the ones who do not teach doctrine X into a position of separateness from each other? I really don't know where you came up with the "filthy" word as I haven't seen that word in reference to a believer in over 20 years. I don't condemn you if you choose to worship on Sunday. That is your right. But I don't keep the Sabbath to feel superior to you or any other observer of a day other than Saturday. When you choose to worship, say, on Sunday, are you doing it for self-serving reasons because it places you into a separateness from the "filthy" Sabbath Keepers?

Which has a great appeal for men given to religious pride.
 
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Fervent

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So, are you claiming someone who observes the Saturday Sabbath is a heretic? If so, I would love to see your evidence.

As long as religious Jews observe the Sabbath, it will never go away. Like you said, it is unsurprising that this is the case. Also, in the Millennium Gentiles will observe the Sabbath alongside Jews.


Please explain how it is self-serving. You claim it is self serving because it places the Sabbath observer into a position of separateness from the filthy (?) non Sabbath (Sunday) observants, Please provide some proof for this claim. Where is your evidence that observing the Sabbath places the Sabbath Keeper into a position of separateness from those who worship on Sunday? How about Christians who speak in tongues? Is the reason for them doing that is that it places the tongues speaker into a position of separateness from the "flithy" non tongues speaker? Do Christians have different doctrines from each other because it places each one that observes doctrine X from the ones who do not teach doctrine X into a position of separateness from each other? I really don't know where you came up with the "filthy" word as I haven't seen that word in reference to a believer in over 20 years. I don't condemn you if you choose to worship on Sunday. That is your right. But I don't keep the Sabbath to feel superior to you or any other observer of a day other than Saturday. When you choose to worship, say, on Sunday, are you doing it for self-serving reasons because it places you into a separateness from the "filthy" Sabbath Keepers?
You seem defensive. No I'm not claiming someone who observes Saturday as their day of rest is a heretic. What brings it to the level of heresy is when someone claims that the Sabbath is still required of believers, and that believers are more generally under the Mosaic covenant for things like food laws and in some cases even circumcision. It is the attempt to add a person's own legal performance to their salvation that makes it self-serving, because they believe that they are more pleasing to God than those who don't perform such religious acts.
 
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Saber Truth Tiger

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Why do you think that?
First off, the Sabbath was instituted for the children of Israel for a perpetual covenant.

Exodus 31:15-17 (KJV)
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

The Sabbath was a sign between Yahweh and the children of Israel and it was to be a perpetual covenant. It was to be done throughout their generations. It was not for the Gentiles but for the children of Israel and it was not only perpetual but throughout their generations. Then, during the Millennium Isaiah reveals all mankind would worship on the Sabbath.

Isaiah 66
18 “For I [h]know their works and their thoughts; [i]the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and see My glory. 19 I will set a sign among them and will send survivors from them to the nations: Tarshish, [j]Put, Lud, [k]Meshech, Tubal and [l]Javan, to the distant coastlands that have neither heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they will declare My glory among the nations. 20 Then they shall bring all your brethren from all the nations as a grain offering to the Lord, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,” says the Lord, “just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the Lord. 21 I will also take some of them for priests and for Levites,” says the Lord.

22 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All [m]mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.
24 “Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have [n]transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all [o]mankind.”

And finally, Jesus made the remark in Mark 2:27 that the Sabbath was made for man (anthropos) which when literally translated means "mankind" and not man for the Sabbath. Yet the Gentiles never kept the Sabbath in the Hebrew Scriptures except in cases when the Gentiles were on Jewish soil and during the Sabbath they had to observe the Sabbath too. Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for mankind though when confronted by the Pharisees. I hope this helps.
 
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Saber Truth Tiger

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You seem defensive. No I'm not claiming someone who observes Saturday as their day of rest is a heretic. What brings it to the level of heresy is when someone claims that the Sabbath is still required of believers, and that believers are more generally under the Mosaic covenant for things like food laws and in some cases even circumcision. It is the attempt to add a person's own legal performance to their salvation that makes it self-serving, because they believe that they are more pleasing to God than those who don't perform such religious acts.
I am agreement with your comment in this post.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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First off, the Sabbath was instituted for the children of Israel for a perpetual covenant.
And what does "perpetual" mean in Hebrew? I recall that its meaning is "for an undefined period of time" and that it had an implied "until it is fulfilled". The Sabbath, like circumcision, is a sign of a religious bond between God and Israel as a nation and a people who were bound by a law once Moses brought the people out of Egypt. That undefined time was fulfilled when Jesus Christ came to fulfil the Law, which he did, and now that covenant has vanished away, as saint Paul said it would.
Must we begin again to commend ourselves? Or are we in need (as some are) of epistles of commendation for you, or from you?
You are our Epistle, written in our hearts, which is known and read by all men. It has been made manifest that you are the Epistle of Christ, ministered by us, and written down, not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, and not on tablets of stone, but on the fleshly tablets of the heart. And we have such faith, through Christ, toward God.​
It is not that we are adequate to think anything of ourselves, as if anything was from us. But our adequacy is from God. And he has made us suitable ministers of the New Testament, not in the letter, but in the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
But if the ministration of death, engraved with letters upon stones, was in glory, (so much so that the sons of Israel were not able to gaze intently upon the face of Moses, because of the glory of his countenance) even though this ministration was ineffective, how could the ministration of the Spirit not be in greater glory? For if the ministration of condemnation is with glory, so much more is the ministration of justice abundant in glory.​
And neither was it glorified by means of an excellent glory, though it was made illustrious in its own way. For if even what was temporary has its glory, then what is lasting has an even greater glory.
Therefore, having such a hope, we act with much confidence, and not as Moses did, in placing a veil over his face, so that the sons of Israel would not gaze intently at his face. This was ineffective, for their minds were obtuse. And, even until this present day, the very same veil, in the readings from the Old Testament, remains not taken away (though, in Christ, it is taken away).​
But even until today, when Moses is read, a veil is still set over their hearts. But when they will have been converted to the Lord, then the veil shall be taken away. Now the Spirit is Lord. And wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. Yet truly, all of us, as we gaze upon the unveiled glory of the face of the Lord, are transfigured into the same image, from one glory to another. And this is done by the Spirit of the Lord.
2 Corinthians 3:1-18 CPDV2009
The temporary Law is fulfilled, the glory that it came with faded away after a few days or weeks, but the glory of Christ in the new covenant is unfading and his law is truly eternal. It is not by means of sacrifices of bulls, rams, or goats that sins are cleansed away, even though the Law of Moses said that these sacrifices were necessary and "permanent", but since the "permanent" comes to an end when it is fulfilled so the Law is at an end.

All this is about Moses' Law, and all the religious elements in it, including the need to keep dietary restrictions and to be circumcised and to keep sabbath. That is why keeping Saturday as if it were objectively holy and to be observed by gentiles as well as Israelites is bad exegesis. The truth is in Christ, and Christ is the Christian's sabbath rest. The day was a type which is now fulfilled in Christ and which all who are likewise in Christ are by means of Christ's obedience and sacrifice set free from the Law.

None of this is a license to commit sins, none of it makes morality irrelevant as some who are enemies of the gospel preaches by saint Paul and the apostles said in the first century. What is surprising is that the Ebionite heresy is revived by many today - by people who seek to keep the Law and obligate others to do the same.
 
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Saber Truth Tiger

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And what does "perpetual" mean in Hebrew? I recall that its meaning is "for an undefined period of time" and that it had an implied "until it is fulfilled". The Sabbath, like circumcision, is a sign of a religious bond between God and Israel as a nation and a people who were bound by a law once Moses brought the people out of Egypt. That undefined time was fulfilled when Jesus Christ came to fulfil the Law, which he did, and now that covenant has vanished away, as saint Paul said it would.
Here are about 60 english translations of the Hebrew Scriptures according to Bible Gateway website:


Here is more on this verse from Bible Hub website:


Here is where the Hebrew word OLAM is used elsewhere in the Hebrew Scriptures:


You will find this most often meant perpetual in the various translations. It was translated as perpetual 25 times in the Bible Gateway list of english translations. The word permanent is used four times and forever six times. Nowhere, in any of the translations, is it translated as "time indefinite" or "until it is fulfilled". Fulfilling the Law is not the same as doing away with the Law. When a prophecy says X and Jesus does X, that is a fulfillment. A fulfillment is not doing away with the Law. Jesus himself said, "I am not come to destroy the law, or the prophets, but to fulfill.". That doesn't mean the law was done away with. He said "think not I am come to destroy the law" and you say Jesus came to do away with the Law. That's what destroy the law means, doesn't it? To abolish it or to do away with it, how is that not destroying it? No, fulfillment makes more sense. In fact, Matthew 5:17 has this to say:

Matthew 5:17 - The Fulfillment of the Law

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

And this on the greek word destroy:


And here is the greek word meanings for fulfill:


This is all for now. I'll read the rest tomorrow.

Must we begin again to commend ourselves? Or are we in need (as some are) of epistles of commendation for you, or from you?
You are our Epistle, written in our hearts, which is known and read by all men. It has been made manifest that you are the Epistle of Christ, ministered by us, and written down, not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, and not on tablets of stone, but on the fleshly tablets of the heart. And we have such faith, through Christ, toward God.


It is not that we are adequate to think anything of ourselves, as if anything was from us. But our adequacy is from God. And he has made us suitable ministers of the New Testament, not in the letter, but in the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
But if the ministration of death, engraved with letters upon stones, was in glory, (so much so that the sons of Israel were not able to gaze intently upon the face of Moses, because of the glory of his countenance) even though this ministration was ineffective, how could the ministration of the Spirit not be in greater glory? For if the ministration of condemnation is with glory, so much more is the ministration of justice abundant in glory.


And neither was it glorified by means of an excellent glory, though it was made illustrious in its own way. For if even what was temporary has its glory, then what is lasting has an even greater glory.
Therefore, having such a hope, we act with much confidence, and not as Moses did, in placing a veil over his face, so that the sons of Israel would not gaze intently at his face. This was ineffective, for their minds were obtuse. And, even until this present day, the very same veil, in the readings from the Old Testament, remains not taken away (though, in Christ, it is taken away).


But even until today, when Moses is read, a veil is still set over their hearts. But when they will have been converted to the Lord, then the veil shall be taken away. Now the Spirit is Lord. And wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. Yet truly, all of us, as we gaze upon the unveiled glory of the face of the Lord, are transfigured into the same image, from one glory to another. And this is done by the Spirit of the Lord.
2 Corinthians 3:1-18 CPDV2009
The temporary Law is fulfilled, the glory that it came with faded away after a few days or weeks, but the glory of Christ in the new covenant is unfading and his law is truly eternal. It is not by means of sacrifices of bulls, rams, or goats that sins are cleansed away, even though the Law of Moses said that these sacrifices were necessary and "permanent", but since the "permanent" comes to an end when it is fulfilled so the Law is at an end.

All this is about Moses' Law, and all the religious elements in it, including the need to keep dietary restrictions and to be circumcised and to keep sabbath. That is why keeping Saturday as if it were objectively holy and to be observed by gentiles as well as Israelites is bad exegesis. The truth is in Christ, and Christ is the Christian's sabbath rest. The day was a type which is now fulfilled in Christ and which all who are likewise in Christ are by means of Christ's obedience and sacrifice set free from the Law.

None of this is a license to commit sins, none of it makes morality irrelevant as some who are enemies of the gospel preaches by saint Paul and the apostles said in the first century. What is surprising is that the Ebionite heresy is revived by many today - by people who seek to keep the Law and obligate others to do the same.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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You will find this most often meant perpetual in the various translations. It was translated as perpetual 25 times in the Bible Gateway list of english translations. The word permanent is used four times and forever six times. Nowhere, in any of the translations, is it translated as "time indefinite" or "until it is fulfilled". Fulfilling the Law is not the same as doing away with the Law. ...
in the New American Standard Bible translation, the Hebrew word olam is rendered 435 times as 25 different English words or phrases:5

ageseverlong time
all successiveeverlastingnever
alwaysforeverold
ancientforever and everpermanent
ancient timesforevermorepermanently
continuallastingperpetual
days of oldlongperpetually
eternallong ago
eternitylong past
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
If one is sufficiently focused on pigs there may be a way to squeeze pigs into that Acts 10 message about gentile evangelism. But the text is not at all focused on pigs .. the focus of the text is " all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air."

"All kinds" including "crawling creatures" - so the rats,cats,dogs, bats, snakes etc list is certainly a focus here.
And it is used to make the point about gentile evangelism. It is not making the case for "eat more rat sandwiches".
Seems to me that you may be fixated on it.
Because I keep referring to 'rats, cats, dogs, bats" and "rat sandwiches" instead of "pigs"? or is it my focus on "gentile evangelism" in my posts that make you think my focus is on pigs in Acts 10??
 
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BobRyan

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My position on sabbath (Saturday) keeping for religious purposes is that it is likely part of the first heresy (Ebionism) which was, as expressed in the original post, about keeping dietary restrictions, getting circumcised, observing the feasts (including animal sacrifices), sabbath and new moon observances and so forth. The original posts concludes with this remark -
In Acts 13, Acts 15, Acts 17 and Acts 18:4 we see gentiles in the synagogues every Sabbath and they are not observing festivals nor are they circumcised and when Paul preaches the gospel to them they ask for "more gospel preaching to be scheduled on the NEXT Sabbath" In Acts 13.

I assume you call acceptance of the Gospel by NT gentiles "ebionism" -- But I don't see how that makes any sense.

In Acts 15 part of the solution for gentiles in the NT church is that they hear Moses preached every Sabbath.
 
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BobRyan

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And what does "perpetual" mean in Hebrew? I recall that its meaning is "for an undefined period of time" and that it had an implied "until it is fulfilled". The Sabbath, like circumcision, is a sign of a religious bond between God and Israel as a nation

Not true according to the bible as we see in Gen 2:2-3 and Ex 20:11 and Is 66:23 and Is 56:6-8 and Mark 2:27

Also it is not true according to Pope John Paul II in Dies Domini
And it is not true according to "The Faith Explained" by Leo Trese - which is promoted as the Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II.
 
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trophy33

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Yes or no without any understanding would not help at all.
Similar to "Saber T. Tiger" (and many others) position.

Actually, anything else than a clear a short answers is not helpful and is mostly just distraction. If somebody is interested in details, it can be asked later, after elementary positions are made clear.

There is an ethic how written articles, posts and similar (even programming code) should look like - hierarchical from the most general to the most specific, so that only who is interested in details may continue to read, and the one who is not, does not need to look for basics in the middle of a bulk of text.

If its a conversation between people, like these forums, the point of posts is not to be complete, but to be concise and direct. Understanding comes from the dialogue itself. You do not need to be afraid that you will have no other chance to explain more details, if needed.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Not true according to the bible as we see in Gen 2:2-3 and Ex 20:11 and Is 66:23 and Is 56:6-8 and Mark 2:27

Also it is not true according to Pope John Paul II in Dies Domini
And it is not true according to "The Faith Explained" by Leo Trese - which is promoted as the Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II.
see post #94, the word has a magnificent breadth of meanings.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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In Acts 13, Acts 15, Acts 17 and Acts 18:4 we see gentiles in the synagogues every Sabbath
True, they were in Jewish synagogues worshipping with the local Jews on the day that the local Jews met in the synagogue. Nothing surprising there.
 
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