The first heresy

[BobRyan]

It is about eating bacon sandwiches.

bacon is not mentioned in Acts 10 - but rats, snakes etc seem to show up there. --

9 On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. 10 But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; 11 and he *saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, 12 and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. 13 A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!” 14 But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.” 15 Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.” 16 This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky.​

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17 Now while Peter was greatly perplexed in mind as to what the vision which he had seen might be, behold, the men who had been sent by Cornelius, having asked directions for Simon’s house, appeared at the gate; 18 and calling out, they were asking whether Simon, who was also called Peter, was staying there. 19 While Peter was reflecting on the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. 20 But get up, go downstairs and accompany them without misgivings, for I have sent them Myself.”​

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27 As he talked with him, he entered and *found many people assembled. 28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.​

Notice that Peter explains this vision 3 times and not once does he say "God showed me that I should call no rat sandwich unholy or unclean" - rather it is always the substantive - significant topic "call no MAN unholy or unclean" and pertains to EVANGELISM not the side issue of eating rat sandwiches that so many people try to get this to be about.

Just like in Matt 16:6 Jesus is not talking about the non-substantive topic of yeast/leaven/bread sold by Pharisees. Many Christians today are stuck in the mindset of the disciples as they were debating "wow - did we buy bread from a Pharisee??? maybe we should be more careful".

 

[Aaron112]

many bible readers understand what charity is and what love is.

Your opinion of that is not Biblically Based nor in line with current nor with past history.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

bacon is not mentioned in Acts 10

Seems that unclean animals are mentioned, and pigs are regarded as unclean by the Law of Moses, thus, in principle bacon is mentioned .

And on the next day, whilst they were going on their journey and drawing nigh to the city, Peter went up to the higher parts of the house to pray, about the sixth hour. And being hungry, he was desirous to taste somewhat. And as they were preparing, there came upon him an ecstasy of mind. And he saw the heaven opened and a certain vessel descending, as it were a great linen sheet let down by the four corners from heaven to the earth: Wherein were all manner of four-footed beasts and creeping things of the earth and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter. Kill and eat. But Peter said: Far be it from me. For I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common. And this was done thrice. And presently the vessel was taken up into heaven. ​

Acts 10:9-16 DRB

 

[Studyman]

In church history there really is a first heresy. It involved circumcision and obedience to the Law of Moses.

​

This is simply not true. It involved the traditions and commandments of men of a religious sect called the Pharisees, who claimed belief in Moses.

Acts 15: 1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.2When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.3And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Acts-15-5/
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

It is important, in my view, to understand who the Pharisees were? In that time there were religious sects, just as there is today. There were Pharisees, who were the main religion, and there were others as well, like the Sadducees.

In this case, it was a sect of the Pharisees. To understand the truth about the Pharisees, it is important to study the Words of the Jesus of the Bible who defined their religion for us. What do we know about this religious sect?

We know they claimed to trust Moses, but they didn't believe much of what God instructed Moses to teach.

John 5: 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 7: 19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

So in Acts, this "Sect of the Pharisees" commanded that men observe what they called the Law of Moses. But Jesus also walked in and taught the multitudes and His Apostles to observe the Law of Moses.

Matt. 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: (Moses gave the Law) 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; "but do not ye after their works": for they say, and do not. 4 For they (Pharisees, not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

This same Jesus, "of the Bible" also told us what the Pharisees taught as the Law of Moses, as this same thing happened when Jesus was teaching His Disciples.

Matt. 15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,

2 "Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders"? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

To which this same Jesus replied.

3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

So this religious sect, this religious business, claimed to promote the "Law of Moses", but the Jesus "of the Bible" clearly showed us that they didn't teach the Law of Moses at all.

Mark 7: 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Not God, as "many" religious sects of my time would have us believe.)

9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

In fact, Jesus told us who the Pharisees father really was.

John 8: 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Sure, they kept some of God's instruction, what religion doesn't. But here is what Jesus said about that.

Matt. 23: 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Now the Apostles, especially Peter knew all of this, and Stephen in the early church history, pointed this all out to us and it cost him his life.

Acts 7: 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart (Not the Circumcision in the manner of Moses) and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

So Peter knew all this truth about the religious sect called the "Pharisees", who were the mainstream religion of that time in Jerusalem. So if a man is armed with the same knowledge Peter had, the following takes on a completely different Light.

"And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Peter spoke in the same manner in Acts 5 when this same religious sect, the Pharisees, commanded that they stop teaching against the religious traditions and commandments of men the Pharisees were pushing onto the New Converts.

Acts 5: 28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.

29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

So Peter boldly takes all this knowledge about the Pharisees that he learned from the Jesus "of the Bible" and the Prophets God sent before Him, and asked the perfect question regarding the traditions and commandments of men these Pharisees were promoting that had plagues Israel for centuries.

Now therefore, why tempt you God to put a yoke upon the necks of the disciples ( heavy burden Jesus spoke of) which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

So according to Scriptures, and the Words of the Lord's Christ Himself, what the Pharisees called the "Law of Moses" was their own ancient religious traditions and commandments of men. And Peter was not going to allow the New converts to be converted to a religious sect who the Jesus of the Bible told us "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves".

So what did the Disciples decide to do?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles "are turned to God"

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (Law of Moses, not a tradition of the Pharisees) and from fornication, (Law of Moses, not a tradition of the Pharisees) and from things strangled, (Law of Moses, not a tradition of the Pharisees) and from blood. (Law of Moses, not a tradition of the Pharisees)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

So the Disciples were promoting the exact same instruction to the Gentiles who had "Turned to God" as the Jesus of the Bible gave them in the beginning.

Matt. 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

It would be the same today if I found a Bible and studied it and started to serve the God as His Son and His Sons Disciples teach, but a sect of the Catholic Church found me. And he would say, to be saved, "It is needful that you come before a Catholic Priest and eat a wafer and be sprinkled with water some man deems holy". Or the Baptist, "It is needful that you be emersed in water by a preacher we deem as ordained".

When the Truth of the Scripture is 1 Cor. 7: 19 "Circumcision (Jew) is nothing, and uncircumcision (Gentile) is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

And again;

Ecc. 12: 12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

And from the Word's of our redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, the Rock of my Salvation. "but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

The deceiver would have us believe that the Disciples were turning the Gentile Converts, who had turned to God, away from God's instruction in righteousness. Acts 15 teaches just the opposite.

 

[Fervent]

This is simply not true. It involved the traditions and commandments of men of a religious sect called the Pharisees, who claimed belief in Moses.

Acts 15: 1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.2When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.3And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.ACTS 15:5 KJV But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to...
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

It is important, in my view, to understand who the Pharisees were? In that time there were religious sects, just as there is today. There were Pharisees, who were the main religion, and there were others as well, like the Sadducees.

The Sadducees were actually the "main" sect at the time since they controlled the temple. What set the pharisees apart were primarily 2 things: they accepted a wider canon(the prophets and the writings in addition to the 5 books of Moses) and they believed in the resurrection. The reason Jesus had so much conflict with them is because they were the closest to the truth, they only really came to be the main strain of Judaism after the fall of the temple. In Acts 15, the dispute was entirely about Torah observance since they demanded that Gentiles be circumcised as a condition for following Christ which would have brought them into the Jewish covenant community. Circumcision was not simply a tradition of the Pharisees but a distinctive of all Judaism.

 

[Aaron112]

Notice that Peter explains this vision 3 times and not once does he say "God showed me that I should call no rat sandwich unholy or unclean" - rather it is always the substantive - significant topic "call no MAN unholy or unclean" and pertains to EVANGELISM not the side issue of eating rat sandwiches that so many people try to get this to be about.

Yep. Good enough to remember - "call no MAN unholy or unclean" ... albeit with

some further clarification later..... for instance, if a man is unholy, unrighteous, defiled not only a little bit , but corrupt from his heart since birth ,
then what ?

 

[Studyman]

The Sadducees were actually the "main" sect at the time since they controlled the temple.

In the Scriptures, what did it matter which religious business or sect "Transgressed God's Commandments by their own tradition"? John the Baptist call them both "vipers", and they both tried to trip Jesus up. Jesus said to "beware" of the Leaven of both the Pharisees and the Sadducees.

The Jesus of the Bible said this of the Sadducees, "And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?"

And this of the Pharisees, "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."

What set the pharisees apart were primarily 2 things: they accepted a wider canon(the prophets and the writings in addition to the 5 books of Moses) and they believed in the resurrection. The reason Jesus had so much conflict with them is because they were the closest to the truth, they only really came to be the main strain of Judaism after the fall of the temple.

You can find the exact reason why Jesus had such a conflict with the Pharisees, by reading HIS Own Words describing why HE had such a conflict with the Pharisees. I advocate for a man to hear Him more, and hear the religious businesses of this world, the Pharisees and Sadducees of our time, less.

If they were so "close" to the truth, then the Apostles would not have worked so hard to keep the New Converts away from them, and turn them instead to Moses, who was read every Sabbath Day by those who "Sit in Moses seat".

Jesus instructed the Multitudes and His Disciples in the exact same way. Why??? Because they "SAY" they are God's Children, but they are "NOT". "For they (Not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers"

This is the "Yoke" the father couldn't bear. "And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

In Acts 15, the dispute was entirely about Torah observance since they demanded that Gentiles be circumcised as a condition for following Christ which would have brought them into the Jewish covenant community. Circumcision was not simply a tradition of the Pharisees but a distinctive of all Judaism.

I am more interested in what the Jesus of the Bible, and the Scriptures actually say. I posted their Word's for review and examination. The Pharisees and the Sadducees didn't believe much of what was written in the Scriptures. I know this because the Jesus of the bible, and Paul say so, along with the Prophets going all the way back to Moses, much of whose writing they also "omitted" and refused to believe. At least according to the Jesus of the Bible.

The Biblical Truth is that neither the Pharisees or the Sadducees had a clue about what circumcision "After the manner of Moses" was. They "SAID" they knew, they convinced others they knew, but if a person believes in the Jesus of the Bible, and the Word's HE inspired, it is clear that they had become vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Of course, this understanding doesn't help promote the popular religious philosophy of this world, that the "Yoke" the fathers couldn't bear was God's Commandments. Nevertheless, it seems prudent to point out what the Scriptures actually say.

 

[Fervent]

In the Scriptures, what did it matter which religious business or sect "Transgressed God's Commandments by their own tradition"? John the Baptist call them both "vipers", and they both tried to trip Jesus up. Jesus said to "beware" of the Leaven of both the Pharisees and the Sadducees.

The Jesus of the Bible said this of the Sadducees, "And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?"

And this of the Pharisees, "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."




You can find the exact reason why Jesus had such a conflict with the Pharisees, by reading HIS Own Words describing why HE had such a conflict with the Pharisees. I advocate for a man to hear Him more, and hear the religious businesses of this world, the Pharisees and Sadducees of our time, less.

If they were so "close" to the truth, then the Apostles would not have worked so hard to keep the New Converts away from them, and turn them instead to Moses, who was read every Sabbath Day by those who "Sit in Moses seat".

Jesus instructed the Multitudes and His Disciples in the exact same way. Why??? Because they "SAY" they are God's Children, but they are "NOT". "For they (Not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers"

This is the "Yoke" the father couldn't bear. "And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.



I am more interested in what the Jesus of the Bible, and the Scriptures actually say. I posted their Word's for review and examination. The Pharisees and the Sadducees didn't believe much of what was written in the Scriptures. I know this because the Jesus of the bible, and Paul say so, along with the Prophets going all the way back to Moses, much of whose writing they also "omitted" and refused to believe. At least according to the Jesus of the Bible.

The Biblical Truth is that neither the Pharisees or the Sadducees had a clue about what circumcision "After the manner of Moses" was. They "SAID" they knew, they convinced others they knew, but if a person believes in the Jesus of the Bible, and the Word's HE inspired, it is clear that they had become vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Of course, this understanding doesn't help promote the popular religious philosophy of this world, that the "Yoke" the fathers couldn't bear was God's Commandments. Nevertheless, it seems prudent to point out what the Scriptures actually say.

The majority of your post is irrelevant to Acts 15, since Jesus' disputes with the Pharisees and Sadducees are not a part of it. Acts 15 tells us exactly what the dispute was and its full resolution and it had nothing to do with the separate traditions the Pharisees kept. Rather than heeding what is written clearly in Acts 15 where the issue was whether "the gentiles must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses." you instead bring in irrelevant additional errors of the Pharisees. If it were simply about their traditions that nullify the word of God, then the council would have made clear that the Gentiles were to keep the law of Moses and the Pharisees were attempting to add to it. But instead the council affirmed only enough laws to make for good table fellowship.

 

[Hawkins]

The Jews feel superior and think that Law is given to the Jews only but not the gentiles while the Jews are called God's chosen people. That's why they argue theologically that redemption of God must go through at least part of the Jewish Law. Or else it's equivalent to say that Law as a whole has been abolished. They think it this way out of pride (Satan's specialty in influencing humans), that's actually one of reasons why the Pharisees can't be close to God to recognize Jesus their Messiah.

At the same time, this is why Pharisee Paul is called to counter them theologically. Paul is famed in terms of his Pharisaic theology as his mentor/teacher represents a whole school of Pharisaic thought.

 

[Aaron112]

This is the "Yoke" the father couldn't bear. "And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Rejecting His Word is rejecting Him.
Putting traditions over His Word is common.

 

[Studyman]

The majority of your post is irrelevant to Acts 15, since Jesus' disputes with the Pharisees and Sadducees are not a part of it.

Yes, a person who is trying to teach others that the Pharisees in Jerusalem were trying to get New Converts to obey God, must certainly make sure they don't listen to Jesus describe the Pharisees religion. So I can see why men would not want to include Jesus' description of the Pharisees religion, in the philosophy you are furthering. But for me, since I am not here to promote any popular religious philosophy of this world, I can include the entire Bible, along with the Words of the Lord Christ in my studies. So here is the dilemma. When a person includes the TRUTH about the Pharisees, assuming the Jesus of the Bible speaks TRUTH which I do, then Acts 15 takes on a completely different meaning, than the one you are trying to promote.

Acts 15 tells us exactly what the dispute was and its full resolution and it had nothing to do with the separate traditions the Pharisees kept.

It had everything to do with the Pharisees religion and the "Yoke" they placed on the necks of men. Again, if one hides the Words of the Jesus "of the Bible" regarding who placed the burdens on the necks of men, they are free from HIS Truth, to accuse GOD of placing the "Yoke" on the father's necks.

So again, if one is learned from Jesus, they know the truth about the Pharisees who said God was their Father, just as they said they promoted God's Laws. But if you "omit" the Words of Jesus HE spoke defining the Pharisees, then you are free to make up or your own, or adopt anything you wish.

Rather than heeding what is written clearly in Acts 15 where the issue was whether "the gentiles must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses." you instead bring in irrelevant additional errors of the Pharisees.

It was Jesus Himself who told me about the Pharisees who claimed to promote the Law of Moses, and Circumcision "After the manner of Moses" did not promote, follow or t4each any such thing. Even Stephen knew this.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

No you would have me believe that all the sudden, between acts 7 and Acts 15, the religious sect of the Pharisees were now promoting God's Laws, and "Circumcision of the heart" after the manner of Moses.

Duet. 10: 16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

The only reason to omit these Inspired Words of God, is to promote a religious philosophy that can't stand if they are not considered.

Why would a man even want to do such a thing?

If it were simply about their traditions that nullify the word of God, then the council would have made clear that the Gentiles were to keep the law of Moses and the Pharisees were attempting to add to it.

Well they did! "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

It seems they all knew about the Pharisees religion, having heard, and more importantly "believed" what Jesus said about them.

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."

Here is what the council told them to do, according to the actual scripture.

Acts 15: 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (Law of Moses) and from fornication, (Law of Moses) and from things strangled, (Law of Moses) and from blood. (Law of Moses)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

And what did the Jesus of the Bible tell His Disciples AND the Multitudes about Moses?

Matt. 23: 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4 For they (Pharisees, not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Do you really believe Peter didn't know this when he said to the Pharisees from Jerusalem, "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

Why should I erase all these truths from the mouth of the Jesus of the bible, just to promote this world's religions who "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."

But instead the council affirmed only enough laws to make for good table fellowship.

So, no "Love God with all your heart", No "Love your neighbor as thyself"? Just a few of the Laws of Moses pertaining to Unclean foods and practices? Doesn't that seem odd to you? But if they were hearing Moses every Sabbath day, they would learn to Love God and their Neighbor, yes? Isn't that the reason why they directed them to Moses of old time?

I get how powerful the religious traditions of this world are, and know it is futile to argue too long about them.

But it does seem prudent to share a perspective from someone who believes all that is written.

 

[Fervent]

Yes, a person who is trying to teach others that the Pharisees in Jerusalem were trying to get New Converts to obey God, must certainly make sure they don't listen to Jesus describe the Pharisees religion. So I can see why men would not want to include Jesus' description of the Pharisees religion, in the philosophy you are furthering. But for me, since I am not here to promote any popular religious philosophy of this world, I can include the entire Bible, along with the Words of the Lord Christ in my studies. So here is the dilemma. When a person includes the TRUTH about the Pharisees, assuming the Jesus of the Bible speaks TRUTH which I do, then Acts 15 takes on a completely different meaning, than the one you are trying to promote.





It had everything to do with the Pharisees religion and the "Yoke" they placed on the necks of men. Again, if one hides the Words of the Jesus "of the Bible" regarding who placed the burdens on the necks of men, they are free from HIS Truth, to accuse GOD of placing the "Yoke" on the father's necks.

So again, if one is learned from Jesus, they know the truth about the Pharisees who said God was their Father, just as they said they promoted God's Laws. But if you "omit" the Words of Jesus HE spoke defining the Pharisees, then you are free to make up or your own, or adopt anything you wish.



It was Jesus Himself who told me about the Pharisees who claimed to promote the Law of Moses, and Circumcision "After the manner of Moses" did not promote, follow or t4each any such thing. Even Stephen knew this.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

No you would have me believe that all the sudden, between acts 7 and Acts 15, the religious sect of the Pharisees were now promoting God's Laws, and "Circumcision of the heart" after the manner of Moses.

Duet. 10: 16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

The only reason to omit these Inspired Words of God, is to promote a religious philosophy that can't stand if they are not considered.

Why would a man even want to do such a thing?



Well they did! "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

It seems they all knew about the Pharisees religion, having heard, and more importantly "believed" what Jesus said about them.

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."

Here is what the council told them to do, according to the actual scripture.

Acts 15: 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (Law of Moses) and from fornication, (Law of Moses) and from things strangled, (Law of Moses) and from blood. (Law of Moses)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

And what did the Jesus of the Bible tell His Disciples AND the Multitudes about Moses?

Matt. 23: 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4 For they (Pharisees, not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Do you really believe Peter didn't know this when he said to the Pharisees from Jerusalem, "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

Why should I erase all these truths from the mouth of the Jesus of the bible, just to promote this world's religions who "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."



So, no "Love God with all your heart", No "Love your neighbor as thyself"? Just a few of the Laws of Moses pertaining to Unclean foods and practices? Doesn't that seem odd to you? But if they were hearing Moses every Sabbath day, they would learn to Love God and their Neighbor, yes? Isn't that the reason why they directed them to Moses of old time?

I get how powerful the religious traditions of this world are, and know it is futile to argue too long about them.

But it does seem prudent to share a perspective from someone who believes all that is written.

You're going beyond what is written in Acts 15 to add your own spin, when the text itself tells us the complete dispute and its resolution.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Is 66:23 says that for all eternity after the cross -- in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

Yeah that verse also says from new moon to new moon which SDA do not observe the new moon feasts and they agree that the new moon feasts are abolished according to Colossians 2:16. So if this supposed to be an example of what we are expected to observe in the new Earth then it’s not lining up both scripture and what the SDA teaches. So the SDA is actually ignoring half of that verse and only using the portion that appears to support their theology. What the verse is actually saying that that we will worship from month to month and from Saturday to Saturday or in other words we will worship everyday.

 

[BobRyan]

Yeah that verse also says from new moon to new moon

Which of course is fine.

The issue is that it says that Sabbath is kept for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth.

And in the book of acts we see repeatedly that it is gentiles keeping the Sabbath - not just Jews. Such that when gospel preaching is given on Sabbath in Acts 13 - gentiles wait for the Jews to leave the synagogue and then they ask Paul for 'MORE' Gospel preaching to be scheduled for "the next Sabbath".

Not anything like that for the New Moon in the New testament - but having a new Moon cycle at the time of the New Earth in Rev 21- makes sense since at that time there will be TWO creation events to remember - not just one.

which SDA do not observe the new moon feasts

Nor did the first century church as we see in the book of Acts -- But they will in the New Earth.
So following that same practice as we see in Acts.

 

[BobRyan]

The majority of your post is irrelevant to Acts 15,

Acts 15 says that a key fact that resolves the issue with gentiles - is that Moses is preached every Sabbath.

And in fact we see Paul preaching "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 to both gentiles and Jews.

Just as we see gentiles in Sabbath Services in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 ...

 

[BobRyan]

bacon is not mentioned in Acts 10 - but rats, snakes etc seem to show up there. --

9 On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. 10 But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; 11 and he *saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, 12 and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. 13 A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!”​

14 But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.” 15 Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.” 16 This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky.​

​

17 Now while Peter was greatly perplexed in mind as to what the vision which he had seen might be, behold, the men who had been sent by Cornelius, having asked directions for Simon’s house, appeared at the gate; 18 and calling out, they were asking whether Simon, who was also called Peter, was staying there. 19 While Peter was reflecting on the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. 20 But get up, go downstairs and accompany them without misgivings, for I have sent them Myself.”​

​

27 As he talked with him, he entered and *found many people assembled. 28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.​

Notice that Peter explains this vision 3 times and not once does he say "God showed me that I should call no rat sandwich unholy or unclean" - rather it is always the substantive - significant topic "call no MAN unholy or unclean" and pertains to EVANGELISM not the side issue of eating rat sandwiches that so many people try to get this to be about.

Just like in Matt 16:6 Jesus is not talking about the non-substantive topic of yeast/leaven/bread sold by Pharisees. Many Christians today are stuck in the mindset of the disciples as they were debating "wow - did we buy bread from a Pharisee??? maybe we should be more careful".

So the Acts 10 context is "evangelism" not "eating rat sandwiches". The argument God is making is for Peter not to avoid evangelizing gentiles.

Yep. Good enough to remember - "call no MAN unholy or unclean" ... albeit with

some further clarification later..... for instance, if a man is unholy, unrighteous, defiled not only a little bit , but corrupt from his heart since birth ,
then what ?

So then "evangelize gentiles".

 

[BobRyan]

bacon is not mentioned in Acts 10 - but rats, snakes etc seem to show up there. --

9 On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. 10 But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; 11 and he *saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, 12 and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. 13 A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!” 14 But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.” 15 Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.” 16 This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky.​

​

17 Now while Peter was greatly perplexed in mind as to what the vision which he had seen might be, behold, the men who had been sent by Cornelius, having asked directions for Simon’s house, appeared at the gate; 18 and calling out, they were asking whether Simon, who was also called Peter, was staying there. 19 While Peter was reflecting on the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. 20 But get up, go downstairs and accompany them without misgivings, for I have sent them Myself.”​

​

27 As he talked with him, he entered and *found many people assembled. 28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.​

Notice that Peter explains this vision 3 times and not once does he say "God showed me that I should call no rat sandwich unholy or unclean" - rather it is always the substantive - significant topic "call no MAN unholy or unclean" and pertains to EVANGELISM not the side issue of eating rat sandwiches that so many people try to get this to be about.

Just like in Matt 16:6 Jesus is not talking about the non-substantive topic of yeast/leaven/bread sold by Pharisees. Many Christians today are stuck in the mindset of the disciples as they were debating "wow - did we buy bread from a Pharisee??? maybe we should be more careful".

Seems that unclean animalsare mentioned, and pigs are regarded as unclean by the Law of Moses, thus, in principle bacon is mentioned

If one is sufficiently focused on pigs there may be a way to squeeze pigs into that Acts 10 message about gentile evangelism. But the text is not at all focused on pigs .. the focus of the text is " all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air."

"All kinds" including "crawling creatures" - so the rats,cats,dogs, bats, snakes etc list is certainly a focus here.

And it is used to make the point about gentile evanglism. It is not making the case for "eat more rat sandwiches".

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

If one is sufficiently focused on pigs there may be a way to squeeze pigs into that Acts 10 message about gentile evangelism. But the text is not at all focused on pigs .. the fo

Seems to me that you may be fixated on it.

 

[Fervent]

Acts 15 says that a key fact that resolves the issue with gentiles - is that Moses is preached every Sabbath.

And in fact we see Paul preaching "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 to both gentiles and Jews.

Just as we see gentiles in Sabbath Services in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 ...

Acts 15 explicitly states the full list of requirements that the council decided to place upon the Gentiles, and Sabbath observance was not on that list.

 

[Dan Perez]

One can both Love God, believe him, and love the poor in practical ways; some, such as Mother Teresa lived a life of poverty (of a sort) for the sake of the poorest of the poor. And despite moments of doubt and complaints from outside she managed to carry on until her death; now she is a canonised saint and recognised as a teacher of the Church.

Mother Teresa avoided the first heresy; she did good works without demanding obedience to the Law of Moses and conversion to Judaism.

And how will you explain Gal 2: 12 where Peter was afraid of those that were coming from James and verses 13 and 14 and in verse 14 where Peter was trying to COMPEL Gentiles to ADOPT JEWISH CUSTOMS and RITES ?

Dan p