The first heresy

[Xeno.of.athens]

And how will you explain Gal 2: 12 where Peter was afraid of those that were coming from James and verses 13 and 14 and in verse 14 where Peter was trying to COMPEL Gentiles to ADOPT JEWISH CUSTOMS and RITES ?

Dan p

What needs to be explained? Saint Paul rebuked saint Peter for saint Peter's error described in the passage.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Acts 15 explicitly states the full list of requirements that the council decided to place upon the Gentiles, and Sabbath observance was not on that list.

How do you know Acts 15 gives the FULL list of requirements the council decided to place upon the Gentiles? Notice that honoring your parents is not on the list. Does that mean the commandment about honoring your parents was no longer valid? Because it wasn't on the list? There are probably many commandments that did not find their way on the Acts 15 list. There were other commandments (Don't do this) that did not make the list and there were probably many positive commandments (do this) that did not make it into the list. Before Paul began writing his letters to the churches keeping the Sabbath wasn't an issue. The Gentiles would go into Jewish synagogues to worship on the Sabbath with the Jews. When Paul preached a sermon at one synagogue, the Gentiles came up to Paul to ask him to speak again. Paul didn't direct them to go meet on Sunday instead, the Gentiles came back on the following Sabbath to hear the word taught by Paul.

The earliest Gentiles and Christians (predominately Jews) continued to observe the Sabbath long after Jesus rose from the dead. It was the letters of Paul that taught keeping the Sabbath was not necessary for salvation.

 

[Fervent]

How do you know Acts 15 gives the FULL list of requirements the council decided to place upon the Gentiles? Notice that honoring your parents is not on the list. Does that mean the commandment about honoring your parents was no longer valid? Because it wasn't on the list? There are probably many commandments that did not find their way on the Acts 15 list. There were other commandments (Don't do this) that did not make the list and there were probably many positive commandments (do this) that did not make it into the list. Before Paul began writing his letters to the churches keeping the Sabbath wasn't an issue. The Gentiles would go into Jewish synagogues to worship on the Sabbath with the Jews. When Paul preached a sermon at one synagogue, the Gentiles came up to Paul to ask him to speak again. Paul didn't direct them to go meet on Sunday instead, the Gentiles came back on the following Sabbath to hear the word taught by Paul.

The earliest Gentiles and Christians (predominately Jews) continued to observe the Sabbath long after Jesus rose from the dead. It was the letters of Paul that taught keeping the Sabbath was not necessary for salvation.

I know it's the full list because of what the text says, which is "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to not burden you with anything beyond the following requirements."

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

I know it's the full list because of what the text says, which is "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to not burden you with anything beyond the following requirements."

So, it is ok for Gentiles to dishonor their parents? It isn't mentioned in the list. So, according to you, there is no law against dishonoring your parents?

 

[Fervent]

So, it is ok for Gentiles to dishonor their parents? It isn't mentioned in the list. So, according to you, there is no law against dishonoring your parents?

Take it up with the text.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Take it up with the text.

According to your interpretation ANYTHING BEYOND THE FOLLOWING REQUIREMENTS means only the things in the list are lawful or unlawful.That is a fallacy. If ANYTHING BEYOND THE FOLLOWING REQUIREMENTS means only the things on the list, you are in a lot of hot water theologically. Tell me, is it ok to dishonor your parents? It's not in the list. How about stealing from someone? That's not in the list. How about loving something more than Yahweh? There's nothing in the list about that. What about drinking alcohol to excess? That's not in the list and yet you claim that if something is not in the list, it is ok not to observe it. I suppose when you read ALL Israel shall be saved it means EVERY LAST JEW that has ever lived will inherit eternal life. I ask you again, is it ok to dishonor your parents? It's not in the list to honor your parents so according to your own logic it is ok to dishonor your parents because the list doesn't mention that.

 

[Fervent]

According to your interpretation ANYTHING BEYOND THE FOLLOWING REQUIREMENTS means only the things in the list are lawful or unlawful.That is a fallacy. If ANYTHING BEYOND THE FOLLOWING REQUIREMENTS means only the things on the list, you are in a lot of hot water theologically. Tell me, is it ok to dishonor your parents? It's not in the list. How about stealing from someone? That's not in the list. How about loving something more than Yahweh? There's nothing in the list about that. What about drinking alcohol to excess? That's not in the list and yet you claim that if something is not in the list, it is ok not to observe it. I suppose when you read ALL Israel shall be saved it means EVERY LAST JEW that has ever lived will inherit eternal life. I ask you again, is it ok to dishonor your parents? It's not in the list to honor your parents so according to your own logic it is ok to dishonor your parents because the list doesn't mention that.

My "interpretation" is that "anything beyond the following" means "anything beyond the following." Where you seem to go awry is assuming that I understand that to be a universal ethical code, when it is instead strictly about Jewish distinctives and customs that would be required. The Sabbath was unique to Israel, unknown among the Gentiles other than proselytes, so if it were a requirement it would have been among the things listed as would any other Jewish distinctives.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

My "interpretation" is that "anything beyond the following" means "anything beyond the following." Where you seem to go awry is assuming that I understand that to be a universal ethical code, when it is instead strictly about Jewish distinctives and customs that would be required. The Sabbath was unique to Israel, unknown among the Gentiles other than proselytes, so if it were a requirement it would have been among the things listed as would any other Jewish distinctives.

Prove it.

 

[Fervent]

Prove it.

Prove that the Sabbath is not among the things the council of Jerusalem required of Gentiles? Just read the text.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

How do you know Acts 15 gives the FULL list of requirements the council decided to place upon the Gentiles?

The wording in the letter is helpful in resolving this question.

"The Apostles and elders, brothers, to those who are at Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, brothers from the Gentiles, greetings. Since we have heard that some, going out from among us, have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, to whom we gave no commandment, it pleased us, being assembled as one, to choose men and to send them to you, with our most beloved Barnabas and Paul: men who have handed over their lives on behalf of the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves also will, with the spoken word, reaffirm to you the same things. For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to impose no further burden upon you, other than these necessary things: that you abstain from things immolated to idols, and from blood, and from what has been suffocated, and from fornication. You will do well to keep yourselves from these things. Farewell."​

Acts 15:23-29 CPDV2009

"No further burden" implies that basic moral norms were already in effect and that the council added only the things listed. They added them for the sake of the Jews who were becoming Christians, which is explained in Chapter 15 of Acts.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Which of course is fine.

The issue is that it says that Sabbath is kept for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth.

And in the book of acts we see repeatedly that it is gentiles keeping the Sabbath - not just Jews. Such that when gospel preaching is given on Sabbath in Acts 13 - gentiles wait for the Jews to leave the synagogue and then they ask Paul for 'MORE' Gospel preaching to be scheduled for "the next Sabbath".

Not anything like that for the New Moon in the New testament - but having a new Moon cycle at the time of the New Earth in Rev 21- makes sense since at that time there will be TWO creation events to remember - not just one.

Nor did the first century church as we see in the book of Acts -- But they will in the New Earth.
So following that same practice as we see in Acts.

Of course, what better time & place to preach the gospel to people who already knew the prophecies of the coming Messiah?

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Prove that the Sabbath is not among the things the council of Jerusalem required of Gentiles? Just read the text.

I asked you first. Prove that the list rules out Sabbath keeping, dishonoring one's parents, stealing, beating someone to death, lying, raping someone, and so forth. Those are not in the list so according to your interpretation all those things I mentioned are not unlawful. According to the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15, right? The fact is though even though I observe the Sabbath at home I don't think it is a matter of a salvation issue because we are saved by grace. We are not saved by works. I really enjoy time spent in prayer, meditation, and bible study. For some reason my mind understands the Bible better on the Sabbath. If you don't want to worship on Sabbath you don't have to. You have free will and don't have to keep the Sabbath if you don't want to. I've read the text and I have read your comments. You believe if the list doesn't mention X then X is not binding on the Gentiles. That is what I am saying, you think it is ok to murder someone. Just read the list.

 

[trophy33]

I asked you first. Prove that the list rules out Sabbath keeping, dishonoring one's parents, stealing, beating someone to death, lying, raping someone, and so forth. Those are not in the list so according to your interpretation all those things I mentioned are not unlawful. According to the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15, right? The fact is though even though I observe the Sabbath at home I don't think it is a matter of a salvation issue because we are saved by grace. We are not saved by works. I really enjoy time spent in prayer, meditation, and bible study. For some reason my mind understands the Bible better on the Sabbath. If you don't want to worship on Sabbath you don't have to. You have free will and don't have to keep the Sabbath if you don't want to. I've read the text and I have read your comments. You believe if the list doesn't mention X then X is not binding on the Gentiles. That is what I am saying, you think it is ok to murder someone. Just read the list.

This is not a good reasoning.

While murder, stealing etc are against common morals and laws of Gentile nations and therefore it was not needed to list them, Sabbath keeping has never been a part of any Gentile nation law, therefore it would be listed, if required of Christians.

If you read the list, its about things that are not against Gentile nations laws, therefore they are listed for Gentiles to know they are still needed.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

This is not a good reasoning.

While murder, stealing etc are against common morals and laws of Gentile nations and therefore it had not sense to list them, Sabbath keeping was not part of any Gentile nation, therefore it would be listed, if required.

Fervent is claiming that if it was not found in the list then it is not applicable to the Gentiles. So, according to Fervent, it is ok for a Gentile to dishonor his parents or murder someone. Read Fervent's responses and you will see what I was arguing against. I do know those laws were known to the Gentiles but so were the Gentiles who were worshiping on the Sabbath. The Sabbath was not even a issue during the council of Jerusalem. You could observe the Sabbath if you wanted and you could observe no day if you wanted. Paul made this clear. He writes that one man esteems one day above another, another man esteems all days the same, let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. And just to drive this home, Paul later wrote to let no man judge you in regard to the new moon or the Sabbath day. We are not to judge each other in regards to the Sabbath day. If I, or another person decides to worship on Sabbath, then you are not to judge us for doing so. Likewise, we are not to judge you for observing Sunday as your day of rest and worship. My point is this: Just because a law is not listed in the list of the council of Jerusalem does not mean that law is no longer a law. That law still exists. Many Gentiles worshiped on the Sabbath across the Empire because there were no churches that observed Christian worship on Sunday in the beginning of the New Covenant. There are no records dating back to the first century that the Gentiles observed Sunday worship. That came later as the teachings of Paul took hold across the Empire.

To sum it up, the Sabbath was not an issue with the Gentiles in the first century CE so it wasn't even considered as an object of dispute in the council of Jerusalem. That doesn't mean once the list was issued that it was no longer a Sabbath but just another run of the mill Saturday.

 

[trophy33]

Fervent is claiming that if it was not found in the list then it is not applicable to the Gentiles. So, according to Fervent, it is ok for a Gentile to dishonor his parents or murder someone. Read Fervent's responses and you will see what I was arguing against.

Ok, I read just your post, as it appeared in the "new posts stream", not other posts.

You could observe the Sabbath if you wanted and you could observe no day if you wanted. Paul made this clear....

...My point is this: Just because a law is not listed in the list of the council of Jerusalem does not mean that law is no longer a law. That law still exists.

If its a law, we must observe it. If we do not need to observe it when we do not want to, its not a law anymore.

Is Sabbath a law for Christians?

Many Gentiles worshiped on the Sabbath across the Empire

What is your source? And what is "many"?

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Ok, I read just your post, as it appeared in the "new posts stream", not other posts.


You are contradicting yourself. If its a law, we must observe it. If we do not need to observe it when we do not want to, its not a law anymore.

Yes, if it is a law, then we must observe it. Fervent claims if it wasn't found in the list in the council of Jerusalem then it is not required for Gentiles.

What is your source?

The book of Acts and some of my sources are no longer available, I studied this in detail over 40 years ago but stopped studying it back in the 80s. Instead I read books that attempted to discredit Sabbath keeping and they admitted that in the early history of the Church the vast majority of Jews and Gentiles in the church observed the Sabbath on Saturday. In Acts, however, Paul would go to the synagogues and other places where Gentiles kept the Sabbath and would preach Jesus to them. The Gentiles wanted to hear more. Paul did not instruct them to attend a Sunday keeping church the next day rather he told them to meet with him the next Sabbath. This would have been a golden opportunity for him to instruct Gentiles to start worshiping Yahweh on Sunday, the day of the week that the Gentiles later started meeting on. In the New Testament there is no evidence of Gentiles worshiping on Sunday. Sunday observance came later in honor of Jesus's resurrection. In any case, Paul said, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit not to judge each other regarding the Sabbath and he gave us liberty to decide which day we want to keep. Paul said one man esteems one day above the others, and one man judges all days the same. Paul said let every man be persuaded in his own mind. Let's try to do that. Friendly debate between the two sides is not condemned but to judge me as a heretic because I observe the Sabbath goes contrary to what the Bible teaches. I don't judge you for observing whatever day you have decided on to rest and meditate on the scriptures and pray and worship God as you see fit.

 

[trophy33]

Yes, if it is a law, then we must observe it. Fervent claims if it wasn't found in the list in the council of Jerusalem then it is not required for Gentiles.

Is it required for Gentiles? Is it a law for our era? Its unclear to me what you argue for or against.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Is it required for Gentiles? Is it a law for our era?

It is not required for salvation. Before Jesus's resurrection and the ushering in of the New Covenant it was required for salvation. See the context around Matthew 19:17. It could be a death sentence for breaking the Sabbath law in the Hebrew Scriptures. However, after Pentecost, many of the Jews and Gentiles in the church worshiped on the Sabbath. So, these Gentiles obviously thought it was required. Paul met with Gentiles on the Sabbath in the book of Acts. When they asked him to meet again, Paul instructed them to meet with him the next Sabbath, not on the first day of the week but on the next Sabbath. As the church grew there were those Gentiles who later began meeting on Sunday to honor the resurrection of Jesus. Some claim that happened after the first century CE but I have no way to prove it. In any case, in Paul's time he admonished Christians to not judge each other over days which one esteemed above all others and those who esteemed every day alike. It happens a lot in these discussion forums. Keeping the Sabbath cannot save you. We are saved by grace and that by faith, which is a gift of God. There is no hell awaiting those who serve Yahweh faithfully, no matter what day they keep. I keep the Sabbath, not because it is required to be saved, but because I am happy doing so and I receive bountiful spiritual blessings. It is not a law for our era when it comes to salvation by grace. But that doesn't mean it is a sin to keep it over Sunday. We do know, however, the Sabbath still exists because the Jews keep it and for them it is a perpetual command that was to be served throughout all their generations. We do know, also, that in the Millennium, all nations will observe the Sabbath and pilgrims will come to Jerusalem and worship on the Sabbath. So, during this age of grace we are not required to keep it for salvation purposes. But we have the liberty to keep it as long as we aren't puffed up with pride and look down on our fellow Christians who choose to worship on a different day,

 

[Aaron112]

There is no hell awaiting those who serve Yahweh faithfully, no matter what day they keep.

Every day, every hour, every minute, serving Yahweh.

The greatest joy and life and peace then.....

yet so rare.

 

[trophy33]

It is not required for salvation. Before Jesus's resurrection and the ushering in of the New Covenant it was required for salvation. See the context around Matthew 19:17. It could be a death sentence for breaking the Sabbath law in the Hebrew Scriptures. However, after Pentecost, many of the Jews and Gentiles in the church worshiped on the Sabbath. So, these Gentiles obviously thought it was required. Paul met with Gentiles on the Sabbath in the book of Acts. When they asked him to meet again, Paul instructed them to meet with him the next Sabbath, not on the first day of the week but on the next Sabbath. As the church grew there were those Gentiles who later began meeting on Sunday to honor the resurrection of Jesus. Some claim that happened after the first century CE but I have no way to prove it. In any case, in Paul's time he admonished Christians to not judge each other over days which one esteemed above all others and those who esteemed every day alike. It happens a lot in these discussion forums. Keeping the Sabbath cannot save you. We are saved by grace and that by faith, which is a gift of God. There is no hell awaiting those who serve Yahweh faithfully, no matter what day they keep. I keep the Sabbath, not because it is required to be saved, but because I am happy doing so and I receive bountiful spiritual blessings. It is not a law for our era when it comes to salvation by grace. But that doesn't mean it is a sin to keep it over Sunday. We do know, however, the Sabbath still exists because the Jews keep it and for them it is a perpetual command that was to be served throughout all their generations. We do know, also, that in the Millennium, all nations will observe the Sabbath and pilgrims will come to Jerusalem and worship on the Sabbath. So, during this age of grace we are not required to keep it for salvation purposes. But we have the liberty to keep it as long as we aren't puffed up with pride and look down on our fellow Christians who choose to worship on a different day,

I am not asking about salvation. Why do you even talk about salvation in this context?

Is it a sin not to keep Sabbath? Has Sabbath ever been given to Christians to keep? Is it a law given to us?

One word answers would be great, just yes or no.