By his stripes, we are healed. Really?

[Bobber]

My point was that, under the Covenant of Law, gentiles who want to be blessed by God must go thru the nation of Israel.

That was what that Canaanite Lady did (Mark 7:29).

That will not apply to us today because Israel has fallen in the eyes of God (Romans 11:11)

So by this argument one could say that salvation itself is not for today for as you say Israel has fallen in the eyes of God. Do you believe that? I trust you don't.

 

[Bobber]

I have also read every book on healing since the 1970s to find the answers to how to achieve regular results in healing. Seriously, does that sound like someone championing doubt? I don't think so.

So tell us in a nutshell or in a summary what do you feel you were taught. What did they tell you were the best ways to get someone healed?

But the facts as I see them is that someone being healed of a serious medical condition is relatively rare among the thousands of people who have and are being prayed for healing.

I think I can agree with that. Generally speaking I feel that's true and I like the next three lines of your next quote,

That shouldn't be, and to date I haven't found the answer why the healing ministry is not working as it should be. But I haven't given up.

OK well we know it's not God's fault. You even acknowledge it should be working better which would mean that you feel God wants to heal more people than what we see. I agree. Now what was one of the main hindrances that Jesus said it can be in the gospels? We do know what he said ....doubt and unbelief. But even when people have prayed? Yes . Matt 17:19 Well of course were not allowed anymore to suggest to anyone it could be what Jesus said and whatever you do don't make anyone feel they need to do an inventory on just how they prayed and what they were expecting. If they prayed that's GOOD ENOUGH. Well we can see from Jesus ....not necessarily. Matt 17:19

So lets just ask? What exactly is FAITH? What exactly is believing you receive WHEN you pray. (A condition for receiving from God Mk 11:24) If a question was asked one receiving prayer...."Will you now be healed as I lay hands on you to be so?" What's the usual and nearly ALL the time response. "Well I sure hope so!" I'd suggest to you that's a problem.

They're not saying, "Yes in Jesus Name surely Jesus bore my infirmities and carried my afflictions and because he bore them I need not too! Now I'm up here to RECEIVE the goodness and grace of God he has for me and your praying is a point of contact whereby from this point on (and it's good to write down the time) from this point on I"m going to declare that I'm HEALED."

So how can one be so bold? They can't! If their understanding of healing is there's no guarantee from a covenant perspective that when God says SURELY he has borne our infirmities that means YES healing belongs to you.....so just receive it.....if they don't have that they don't have enough knowledge to even be in faith. Much more can be said but FAITH to receive is not just believing that God is able. Faith to receive is knowing what God has clearly defined he wants to do.....and that's heal them . And actually he did that 2000 years ago....the prayer of faith is really tapping into what belongs to one already. It's at a point in time you actually receive it.

 

[Bobber]

I think I remember Brother Hagin asking that in one of his earlier sermons.
I Miss Brother Hagin.
"If you can't say amen, say oh me!"

Yeah other healing books have raised the question as well even before brother Hagin. Of course Hagin was never agasint Doctors or people on medicine. He'd even buy medicine for people that couldn't afford it to help them out. But the idea that some put forth, "Well it's the will of God for me to be sick" Then why are you trying to do everything you can to get out of the will of God is a valid question.

 

[jiminpa]

So tell us in a nutshell or in a summary what do you feel you were taught. What did they tell you were the best ways to get someone healed?

I think I can agree with that. Generally speaking I feel that's true and I like the next three lines of your next quote,

OK well we know it's not God's fault. You even acknowledge it should be working better which would mean that you feel God wants to heal more people than what we see. I agree. Now what was one of the main hindrances that Jesus said it can be in the gospels? We do know what he said ....doubt and unbelief. But even when people have prayed? Yes . Matt 17:19 Well of course were not allowed anymore to suggest to anyone it could be what Jesus said and whatever you do don't make anyone feel they need to do an inventory on just how they prayed and what they were expecting. If they prayed that's GOOD ENOUGH. Well we can see from Jesus ....not necessarily. Matt 17:19

So lets just ask? What exactly is FAITH? What exactly is believing you receive WHEN you pray. (A condition for receiving from God Mk 11:24) If a question was asked one receiving prayer...."Will you now be healed as I lay hands on you to be so?" What's the usual and nearly ALL the time response. "Well I sure hope so!" I'd suggest to you that's a problem.

They're not saying, "Yes in Jesus Name surely Jesus bore my infirmities and carried my afflictions and because he bore them I need not too! Now I'm up here to RECEIVE the goodness and grace of God he has for me and your praying is a point of contact whereby from this point on (and it's good to write down the time) from this point on I"m going to declare that I'm HEALED."

So how can one be so bold? They can't! If their understanding of healing is there's no guarantee from a covenant perspective that when God says SURELY he has borne our infirmities that means YES healing belongs to you.....so just receive it.....if they don't have that they don't have enough knowledge to even be in faith. Much more can be said but FAITH to receive is not just believing that God is able. Faith to receive is knowing what God has clearly defined he wants to do.....and that's heal them . And actually he did that 2000 years ago....the prayer of faith is really tapping into what belongs to one already. It's at a point in time you actually receive it.

Thank you. I needed that.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So you studied successful formulas.

Maybe not in this post, but you consistently challenge statements of God's faithfulness in doing beyond what we can accomplish without him. If you are really searching for answers, I'm missing it. It seems like your goal is to discourage. I'm not intending to flame. I'm giving an opportunity to clear up a possible misunderstanding.

I don't think that it is God's faithfulness is the issue. God is righteous in all He does, and He has definitely promised that the spiritual gifts are for the Church, from the Day of Pentecost right through the Church Age until Jesus comes again. This means that because we are still in the Church Age, the gifts, including the gifts of healing, are available to the Church.

I am not saying that we should give up praying for the sick, because the Scripture says that we should always pray and not to faint (give up). Also the Scripture says that God's eye is upon the righteous and His ears are open to their prayers. Philippians 4:5-6 says, "Be not anxious for anything, but by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God, and the peace of God that passes understanding will keep your hearts and minds in Christ."

So we keep praying for the sick in the face of the lack of results, out of obedience to His word. Remember Daniel who started praying that the 70 years of captivity would come to an end according to what he saw in the Scriptures. It took three weeks for the answer to come back. The angel said that his prayer was heard immediately, but he had to battle the Prince of Persia as it resisted him and he had to get the angel Michael to come and assist him.

What this shows me is that although our prayers are heard as soon as we pray, the answer takes time to get through because of spiritual battles against the powers of darkness that hinder the outcome. The Scripture says that our warfare is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, and that our weapons are not natural but mighty through God for the pulling down of stronghold, casting down imaginations and every high thing that works against the knowledge of Christ.

So I am coming to the opinion that we are up against a spiritual opposition that does not want God's will to be done in the Church and in its mission to the lost. Therefore I am realising that it is not a simple matter of believers not having enough faith, or being holy enough. It is mainly because we have a devil and his demons opposing us. We see this in some areas of the Church where the waters are so muddied, that people can't discern truth from error.

So it might be a matter of spiritual warfare that is the reason why so few are being healed in spite of all the prayers and ministry.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So tell us in a nutshell or in a summary what do you feel you were taught. What did they tell you were the best ways to get someone healed?

I think I can agree with that. Generally speaking I feel that's true and I like the next three lines of your next quote,

OK well we know it's not God's fault. You even acknowledge it should be working better which would mean that you feel God wants to heal more people than what we see. I agree. Now what was one of the main hindrances that Jesus said it can be in the gospels? We do know what he said ....doubt and unbelief. But even when people have prayed? Yes . Matt 17:19 Well of course were not allowed anymore to suggest to anyone it could be what Jesus said and whatever you do don't make anyone feel they need to do an inventory on just how they prayed and what they were expecting. If they prayed that's GOOD ENOUGH. Well we can see from Jesus ....not necessarily. Matt 17:19

So lets just ask? What exactly is FAITH? What exactly is believing you receive WHEN you pray. (A condition for receiving from God Mk 11:24) If a question was asked one receiving prayer...."Will you now be healed as I lay hands on you to be so?" What's the usual and nearly ALL the time response. "Well I sure hope so!" I'd suggest to you that's a problem.

They're not saying, "Yes in Jesus Name surely Jesus bore my infirmities and carried my afflictions and because he bore them I need not too! Now I'm up here to RECEIVE the goodness and grace of God he has for me and your praying is a point of contact whereby from this point on (and it's good to write down the time) from this point on I"m going to declare that I'm HEALED."

So how can one be so bold? They can't! If their understanding of healing is there's no guarantee from a covenant perspective that when God says SURELY he has borne our infirmities that means YES healing belongs to you.....so just receive it.....if they don't have that they don't have enough knowledge to even be in faith. Much more can be said but FAITH to receive is not just believing that God is able. Faith to receive is knowing what God has clearly defined he wants to do.....and that's heal them . And actually he did that 2000 years ago....the prayer of faith is really tapping into what belongs to one already. It's at a point in time you actually receive it.

I tried looking for a way to attach my book on the healing ministry free of charge, which is the result of my research paper for my M.Div, but I can't see a way to attach it either on this reply or on a PM to you. But if you email me on paul90@slingshot.co.nz I can get it to you that way. Seeing that I have made the offer on this public post and would be happy to send it to anyone else who is interested.

 

[Guojing]

So by this argument one could say that salvation itself is not for today for as you say Israel has fallen in the eyes of God. Do you believe that? I trust you don't.

Have you read Romans 11:11 properly?

 

[Guojing]

it seems you're going out of your way to create a scenario whereby nobody has in any of their teaching anything which would say a person needs to do an assessment of themselves as to why they might not be healed.

Do you understand what I meant when I said,

Under the law, if you are sick, it is because you disobeyed God. (Deuteronomy 7:15, Exodus 15:26)

So if God no longer relates to us under the Law (Romans 6:14, 1 Timothy 1:9), there is no connection between being sick and disobedience to God.

You are free to disagree with that reasoning, I am just asking whether you understood those scripture references

 

[Guojing]

What does that have to do with healing?

Your original point was

Yet we have "believers" on here actively questioning God's written word, and discouraging trust in God's faithfulness to His promises. Me, I need all of the encouragement I can get. It's one of the reasons I push back so hard, but also because the goal of the discourager is to weaken the entire body.

My reply to you was

Imagine you meet a Christian who want to claim Genesis 15:5 as God's promise to him, and he push back hard against anyone who attempt to teach him that promise was specific to Abraham.

How would you respond to that?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Do you understand what I meant when I said,

Under the law, if you are sick, it is because you disobeyed God. (Deuteronomy 7:15, Exodus 15:26)

So if God no longer relates to us under the Law (Romans 6:14, 1 Timothy 1:9), there is no connection between being sick and disobedience to God.

You are free to disagree with that reasoning, I am just asking whether you understood those scripture references

Just an interjection:

1 Corinthians 11:29-32 KJV
29. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

1 Corinthians 5:4-5 KJV
4. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5. To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 John 5:16 KJV
16. If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Galatians 6:7-8 KJV
7. Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Peace

 

[jiminpa]

Your original point was


My reply to you was

...and we come back to non-sequitur. You are equating 2 things that are similar as though they are identical.

 

[Guojing]

I don't think that it is God's faithfulness is the issue. God is righteous in all He does, and He has definitely promised that the spiritual gifts are for the Church, from the Day of Pentecost right through the Church Age until Jesus comes again. This means that because we are still in the Church Age, the gifts, including the gifts of healing, are available to the Church.

So I am coming to the opinion that we are up against a spiritual opposition that does not want God's will to be done in the Church and in its mission to the lost. Therefore I am realising that it is not a simple matter of believers not having enough faith, or being holy enough. It is mainly because we have a devil and his demons opposing us. We see this in some areas of the Church where the waters are so muddied, that people can't discern truth from error.

God promises salvation to all who believe in the gospel, and as you said, no one, devil or otherwise, can stop an unbeliever from believing and receiving salvation.

If what you claim about healing is also true, God also promised us that the gifts, including the gifts of healing, are available to the Church, then it makes zero sense that a devil and his demons can stop a believer from believing and receiving healing.

Unless you are assuming that it is harder for a believer to receive healing (a temporal blessing), than an unbeliever to receive salvation (an eternal blessing), which kind of contradict what Paul meant in 2 Corinthians 4:18 and Romans 8:32

 

[Guojing]

...and we come back to non-sequitur. You are equating 2 things that similar as though they are identical.

My point is that, not every promise written in scripture is for you to claim.

You have to figure which promises are written TO you, and which promises are NOT to you, nor ABOUT you.

 

[Aaron112]

Just an interjection:

1 Corinthians 11:29-32 KJV
29. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

1 Corinthians 5:4-5 KJV
4. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5. To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 John 5:16 KJV
16. If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Galatians 6:7-8 KJV
7. Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Peace

I can't remember at the moment where it is written about someone who should not expect anything from God. Certainly someone reading this remembers, eh?
Likewise this I remember though: "For lack of knowledge (experiential knowledge of Jesus and Truth) MY people PERISH" ...... when someone seeks truth, and keeps seeking truth , by God's Own Word they find it, and are set free. (i.e. healed). For examples, keep seeking for someone with a proven track record of healing people, and not just hearsay or false advertising. Since it is both illegal by federal law for doctors to heal the way they used to do before the 1950's, and not permitted nor even admitted or known about by most religious groups, it may be very difficult.

 

[Aaron112]

God promises salvation to all who believe in the gospel, and as you said, no one, devil or otherwise, can stop an unbeliever from believing and receiving salvation.

If what you claim about healing is also true, God also promised us that the gifts, including the gifts of healing, are available to the Church, then it makes zero sense that a devil and his demons can stop a believer from believing and receiving healing.

Unless you are assuming that it is harder for a believer to receive healing (a temporal blessing), than an unbeliever to receive salvation (an eternal blessing), which kind of contradict what Paul meant in 2 Corinthians 4:18.

This is true and good, thanks be to God and the Lord Jesus Forever.
What does a believer believe ? When the truth is not found in their own family or group, what do they believe in ?
How can they find truth when according to all Scripture known about, the very organizations they were often taught to believe in or trust and/or not to oppose, the majority of all organzations oppose the truth and oppose those who speak truth.

 

[Aaron112]

Is this about physical healing or spiritual healing?

How about both. I think it has been shown often over the last 2000 years (and more?) that the word(s) used originally for being saved/ salvation/ also mean being healed (perhaps from the inside out?) .... wholly, completely.

 

[jiminpa]

My point is that, not every promise written in scripture is for you to claim.

You have to figure which promises are written TO you, and which promises are NOT to you, nor ABOUT you.

It's one thing to acknowledge that some promises are specific, and it's a completely different thing to use that to disparage other promises.

 

[Guojing]

It's one thing to acknowledge that some promises are specific, and it's a completely different thing to use that to disparage other promises.

If you happen to meet someone who is 100% convinced that Genesis 15:5 and Matthew 19:28 are also for him to claim, if you were to tell him otherwise, he will also believe that you are "disparaging other promises".

Is he correct then?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I can't remember at the moment where it is written about someone who should not expect anything from God. Certainly someone reading this remembers, eh?
Likewise this I remember though: "For lack of knowledge (experiential knowledge of Jesus and Truth) MY people PERISH" ...... when someone seeks truth, and keeps seeking truth , by God's Own Word they find it, and are set free. (i.e. healed). For examples, keep seeking for someone with a proven track record of healing people, and not just hearsay or false advertising. Since it is both illegal by federal law for doctors to heal the way they used to do before the 1950's, and not permitted nor even admitted or known about by most religious groups, it may be very difficult.

Thanks...
BTW

James 1:6-7 KJV
6. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

 

[jiminpa]

If you happen to meet someone who is 100% convinced that Genesis 15:5 and Matthew 19:28 are also for him to claim, if you were to tell him otherwise, he will also believe that you are "disparaging other promises".

Is he correct then?

I'm done playing your shell game.