By his stripes, we are healed. Really?

[Bobber]

It was her looking beyond the limitations that He called faith. And she received the children's bread in reward. So even if one demands that these promises only belong to the Jews, we can see that Jesus made them good, even to a despised and cursed Canaanite who had faith. We should be encouraged so much more!

Two things know. I agree even if it can be argued healing was for the Jews and somehow not for us....even that fails. If Jesus said to us, "Sorry but only for the Jews" when we'd say what the woman said, "Well even the dogs get the crumbs that fall from the children's table" So if the crumb will heal you or the full lunch will heal you....what's it matter? The only thing that matters is that you get healed.

Now secondly......we're a joint heir with a Jew (Jesus) and our life is hid with Christ in God. If healing just belongs to a Jew FINE. But I'm in Christ who is one.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Two things know. I agree even if it can be argued healing was for the Jews and somehow not for us....even that fails. If Jesus said to us, "Sorry but only for the Jews" when we'd say what the woman said, "Well even the dogs get the crumbs that fall from the children's table" So if the crumb will heal you or the full lunch will heal you....what's it matter? The only thing that matters is that you get healed.

Now secondly......we're a joint heir with a Jew (Jesus) and our life is hid with Christ in God. If healing just belongs to a Jew FINE. But I'm in Christ who is one.

Amen.
Even if it were not so, the promise is to the Jew first, and then the Gentile. In the eyes of God, and the actuality of the Spirit, there is no difference.

 

[Bobber]

The history of Israel since the promise of health was that they did not remain faithful to God, but went into idolatry. This meant that they were then subject to the curse of all the diseases of Egypt coming upon them. If we consider what Moses taught, and the failure of Israel to remain faithful to the Lord, then while it is absolutely true that we have been delivered from the curse of the Law, there is a condition that we remain faithful to the Lord.

True. We can see this outlined in 1 Cor 1:30 where Paul even addresses why many are not healed or are weak and sickly but he taught this out in order for people to correct themselves so they could be healed. It can still be taught though that all Christians are redeemed from the curse of the law......but make sure we're eligible to receive the blessings or to see them manifested.

There are many wonderful, saintly believers who had had to struggle with sickness and disability and there are utter hypocrites who have had healthy lives free of disease and disability.

There is a mystery to some of this. I think there can be a genetic factor involved too. If the genetics of a family line is prone to have a problem regardless of how nice or how not nice they are may not mean anything.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

And if one believes it's the will of God for them to stay afflicted then maybe they should stop seeing doctors or taking medicine. I mean why should they try to get out of the will of God?

I think I remember Brother Hagin asking that in one of his earlier sermons.
I Miss Brother Hagin.
"If you can't say amen, say oh me!"

 

[jiminpa]

Yes.

I am glad you agree that not every promise written in God's word is for us to claim today.

We have to consider who was it given to, and when it was or will it be given.

You claiming victory doesn't make you non-sequitur argument valid.

 

[jiminpa]

There are many wonderful, saintly believers who had had to struggle with sickness and disability .

Your argument is still that experience supercedes scripture. Maybe your heroes weren't such strongholds of the faith after all. Maybe, (and it is), the Bible is correct and they themselves hindered God in some way, or the body of Christ failed to encourage them in the word when they were too weak to do so themselves.

You're still just championing doubt here. Good luck with that.

 

[jiminpa]

If he really meant that, then Genesis 15:5 and Matthew 19:28 are meant for us to claim as well.

But all of us know we cannot claim those, so for sure that popular Word of Faith teaching about that verse cannot be every single promise in scripture.

Sorry, but I'm not WoF. I just know that God and His word are to be fully trusted. Our understanding and the understanding of others, infinitely less so.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Your argument is still that experience supercedes scripture. Maybe your heroes weren't such strongholds of the faith after all. Maybe, (and it is), the Bible is correct and they themselves hindered God in some way, or the body of Christ failed to encourage them in the word when they were too weak to do so themselves.

You're still just championing doubt here. Good luck with that.

I'm just dealing with facts. I have done extensive research on the healing ministry, and have prayed for many Christians and non-Christians for healing. What this shows that for at least since the 1970s, I have been actively involved in the healing ministry. I have taken weekend conferences on healing using examples of the way Jesus healed people and showing that if we followed His principles then that is the best chance of getting healed. I have also read every book on healing since the 1970s to find the answers to how to achieve regular results in healing. Seriously, does that sound like someone championing doubt? I don't think so.

But the facts as I see them is that someone being healed of a serious medical condition is relatively rare among the thousands of people who have and are being prayed for healing. That shouldn't be, and to date I haven't found the answer why the healing ministry is not working as it should be. But I haven't given up. I still have conversations with the Lord, and I have not stopped praying for people when the opportunity has arisen.

 

[Guojing]

Sorry, but I'm not WoF. I just know that God and His word are to be fully trusted. Our understanding and the understanding of others, infinitely less so.

Even if you "know that God and His word are to be fully trusted", you would agree that you cannot claim those promises he made to specific individuals in Genesis 15:5 and Matthew 19:28?

 

[Guojing]

And if one believes it's the will of God for them to stay afflicted then maybe they should stop seeing doctors or taking medicine. I mean why should they try to get out of the will of God?

In the OT, sickness and disease was always punishment due to disobedience and unbelief but that was under the Law

Under the Law, God literally promised Israel that if they obey him, they will never fall sick (Deuteronomy 7:15, Exodus 15:26)

Under the promised kingdom of heaven on Earth, no one in Israel will be maim or sick too (Isaiah 33:24, Psalms 103:1-5.

Israel broke their covenant of Law that was given at Mount Sinai. They killed or ignored all the prophets that God repeatedly sent to them when they were separated into 2 kingdoms and went into captivity under Babylon, and then under Persia. (Matthew 21:33-46; Mark 12:1-12; Luke 20:9-19).

Thus, at the time of Jesus's first coming to Israel, many people in Israel are sick, demon possessed, precisely because they have forsaken that Law covenant. (Luke 13:11, Acts 3:2)

Jesus thus healed all of them to give them a taste of what life in that kingdom would be. Acts 10:38 is an especially beautiful summary by Peter to show that

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

But now, God no longer relates to us under the Law (Romans 6:14, 1 Timothy 1:9).

So when we believers are sick nowadays, we can be rest assured that it is not because we have disobeyed God in anyway.

Conversely, if we find ourselves getting better, it is NOT because we are currently doing something that pleases God.

That is what I believe Paul is teaching us now when he shared with us Romans 8:18-25 and 2 Corinthians 4:16-18, and when he gave Timothy common sense advice regarding his frequent stomach aliments.

 

[Guojing]

Two things know. I agree even if it can be argued healing was for the Jews and somehow not for us....even that fails. If Jesus said to us, "Sorry but only for the Jews" when we'd say what the woman said, "Well even the dogs get the crumbs that fall from the children's table" So if the crumb will heal you or the full lunch will heal you....what's it matter? The only thing that matters is that you get healed.

It matters because in many churches nowadays, they have this doctrine that they need to bless Israel in order to be blessed by God

That is true under the covenant of Law (Numbers 24:9, Deuteronomy 23:3-4).

That is why some of them support Donald Trump.

But if they realized that, today, Israel has fallen and God is no longer relating to us based on that Law covenant and no longer blessing us because of Israel (Romans 11:11), then they won't have this doctrine for the current grace dispensation.

 

[Bobber]

It matters because in many churches nowadays, they have this doctrine that they need to bless Israel in order to be blessed by God

That is true under the covenant of Law (Numbers 24:9, Deuteronomy 23:3-4).

That has nothing to do with those who are in Christ Jesus, and being a joint heir with Jesus Christ and who was an obedient Son of Abraham that the blessing of healing wouldn't belong to us. The covenant of the law also spoke of the circumcisions of the heart to come...being born again.....So are we going to say that's not for us?

That is why some of them support Donald Trump.

Please Guojing don't bring politics into a subject about healing. Spare me that will ya? Thanks.

B

 

[Bobber]

In the OT, sickness and disease was always punishment due to disobedience and unbelief but that was under the Law

Unbelief will still neutralize one from receiving the grace and goodness of God. I'm not sure why you should think it wouldn't. James 1 states clearly not for a person to think they'll receive anything from the Lord who doubts and wavers. He started off talking about wisdom in that chapter and ended up talking about ANYTHING. That would include healing.

Thus, at the time of Jesus's first coming to Israel, many people in Israel are sick, demon possessed, precisely because they have forsaken that Law covenant.

There were many god fearing Jews at the time Jesus was here too. You just can't lump in a whole population and say everyone had forsaken the keeping of God's word.

Jesus thus healed all of them to give them a taste of what life in that kingdom would be.

Sorry but it seems to me you're making that up. Maybe you can show me where the Bible says that. Jesus healed yes to demonstrate he was an anointed and empowered Prophet but ALSO to show his mercy and compassion. Matt 14:14 The Bible says even today he's easily touched with the feelings of our infirmities Heb 4:15 and wants to impart his mercy.....that is for those who will cooperate with him allowing him to do it.

 

[Guojing]

That has nothing to do with those who are in Christ Jesus, and being a joint heir with Jesus Christ and who was an obedient Son of Abraham that the blessing of healing wouldn't belong to us. The covenant of the law also spoke of the circumcisions of the heart to come...being born again.....So are we going to say that's not for us?

My point was that, under the Covenant of Law, gentiles who want to be blessed by God must go thru the nation of Israel.

That was what that Canaanite Lady did (Mark 7:29).

That will not apply to us today because Israel has fallen in the eyes of God (Romans 11:11)

 

[Guojing]

Unbelief will still neutralize one from receiving the grace and goodness of God. I'm not sure why you should think it wouldn't. James 1 states clearly not for a person to think they'll receive anything from the Lord who doubts and wavers. He started off talking about wisdom in that chapter and ended up talking about ANYTHING. That would include healing.

Your point, which I replied to, was this

And if one believes it's the will of God for them to stay afflicted then maybe they should stop seeing doctors or taking medicine. I mean why should they try to get out of the will of God?

I am saying you are misunderstanding what some of them are saying.

In the OT, sickness and disease was always punishment due to disobedience and unbelief but that was under the Law.

But now, God no longer relates to us under the Law (Romans 6:14, 1 Timothy 1:9).

So when we believers are sick nowadays, we can be rest assured that it is not because we have disobeyed God in anyway.

Conversely, if we find ourselves getting better, it is NOT because we are currently doing something that pleases God.

That is what I believe Paul is teaching us now when he shared with us Romans 8:18-25 and 2 Corinthians 4:16-18, and when he gave Timothy common sense advice regarding his frequent stomach aliments.

Do you understand my point now?

 

[Bobber]

So when we believers are sick nowadays, we can be rest assured that it is not because we have disobeyed God in anyway.

Sorry Guojing but you've gone off the word of God in saying that. 1 Cor 11:30 clearly states,

For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.1 Cor 11:30

And that reason was because they were walking about of love. He did not say ALL are sick for this reason though but MANY. Not sure how you can claim what I just shared isn't so.

Conversely, if we find ourselves getting better, it is NOT because we are currently doing something that pleases God.

Again sorry but you're off. 1 Cor 11:30 should confirm that.

That is what I believe Paul is teaching us now when he shared with us Romans 8:18-25 and 2 Corinthians 4:16-18, and when he gave Timothy common sense advice regarding his frequent stomach aliments.

Actually I don't consider this was sickness anyway as you might think. The water in many places wasn't good quality and they'd mix alcohol albeit small amounts to sterilize it. What he told him was the equivalent today as taking pepto bismol. That's not healing but just helping the stomach to function in a normal fashion.

 

[Guojing]

Sorry Guojing but you've gone off the word of God in saying that. 1 Cor 11:30 clearly states,

For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.1 Cor 11:30

And that reason was because they were walking about of love. He did not say ALL are sick for this reason though but MANY. Not sure how you can claim what I just shared isn't so.

Because if Paul meant the Lord's supper to be a sufficient means to avoid sickness and disease, it will contradict what he said in a few places elsewhere, as I have already provided to you. Romans 8:18-25 and 2 Corinthians 4:16-18

 

[jiminpa]

Even if you "know that God and His word are to be fully trusted", you would agree that you cannot claim those promises he made to specific individuals in Genesis 15:5 and Matthew 19:28?

What does that have to do with healing?

 

[jiminpa]

I'm just dealing with facts. I have done extensive research on the healing ministry, and have prayed for many Christians and non-Christians for healing. What this shows that for at least since the 1970s, I have been actively involved in the healing ministry. I have taken weekend conferences on healing using examples of the way Jesus healed people and showing that if we followed His principles then that is the best chance of getting healed. I have also read every book on healing since the 1970s to find the answers to how to achieve regular results in healing.

So you studied successful formulas.

Seriously, does that sound like someone championing doubt?

Maybe not in this post, but you consistently challenge statements of God's faithfulness in doing beyond what we can accomplish without him. If you are really searching for answers, I'm missing it. It seems like your goal is to discourage. I'm not intending to flame. I'm giving an opportunity to clear up a possible misunderstanding.

 

[Bobber]

Because if Paul meant the Lord's supper to be a sufficient means to avoid sickness and disease, it will contradict what he said in a few places elsewhere, as I have already provided to you. Romans 8:18-25 and 2 Corinthians 4:16-18

But that's a secondary thing you're bringing up. The point is the question within the church and probably within all Christendom at that time as it is today is just why do believers get sick and some die (as we would call it) before their time. Paul told us why that is for MANY....not all but MANY....it potentially CAN be because of wrong things they were doing.

For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.1 Cor 11:30

That demonstrates that your statement : "So when we believers are sick nowadays, we can be rest assured that it is not because we have disobeyed God in anyway." So it seems you're going out of your way to create a scenario whereby nobody has in any of their teaching anything which would say a person needs to do an assessment of themselves as to why they might not be healed.

To you your holding that would take away peace from a believer and you're always wanting to make them feel good . Granted nobody wants to hear there's something they might have done wrong or are doing which has called a problem but God is interested in truth being revealed.....why? Because LOVE wants them to correct themselves so they don't get into trouble.