Lack of Confidence, Women, and Looks (Advice Please)

[Tranquil Bondservant]

God created beauty. It is not 'worthless'. It should not be the sole or reigning factor in what draws us, or keeps us, with a spouse. But it is not wicked, sinful, bad, etc, to desire, appreciate, and enjoy the beauty of one's beloved. God gives us all things to enjoy. Beware of slipping into a type of false piety, where natural desires are incorrectly labeled as evil because it makes one feel morally superior. To say "the soul matters more than the body" is not saying that the body does not matter. It does not have to be one extreme or the other.

I'm not slipping into a false piety and please I ask that you protect yourself from making such accusations in the future. "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.". I'm not calling beauty bad or evil, I'm calling it vain.

 

[Plenipotent]

Aww, c'mon you two!

It seems like you're both essentially making the same argument, but due to your opposing positions on a central idea, you're debating the specifics based on how far you each perceive yourselves to be from the middle. Perhaps a more effective approach would be to establish common understanding and ensure clarity in each other's viewpoints before responding with your own thoughts. Currently, it appears that you're expressing similar concepts using different language and clashing due to a lack of complete comprehension of each other's perspectives.

Or I could just be full of beans... That's possible too.

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

Aww, c'mon you two!

It seems like you're both essentially making the same argument, but due to your opposing positions on a central idea, you're debating the specifics based on how far you each perceive yourselves to be from the middle. Perhaps a more effective approach would be to establish common understanding and ensure clarity in each other's viewpoints before responding with your own thoughts. Currently, it appears that you're expressing similar concepts using different language and clashing due to a lack of complete comprehension of each other's perspectives.

Or I could just be full of beans... That's possible too.

When marriage hinges upon physical attraction, physical attraction is the determining factor for marriage. When Scripture makes it clear that beauty is vain and we're to love our spouse as Christ loves us (i.e., which includes loving independent of appearance), what other stance can we take? It's vitally important not just to marriage but it is also fundamental to our walk with Christ

 

[Saucy]

Aww, c'mon you two!

It seems like you're both essentially making the same argument, but due to your opposing positions on a central idea, you're debating the specifics based on how far you each perceive yourselves to be from the middle. Perhaps a more effective approach would be to establish common understanding and ensure clarity in each other's viewpoints before responding with your own thoughts. Currently, it appears that you're expressing similar concepts using different language and clashing due to a lack of complete comprehension of each other's perspectives.

Or I could just be full of beans... That's possible too.

Roll that beautiful bean footage!

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

I'm starting to feel insane. I can't be the only one who thinks this way right? You're all children of God, how can you hinge your love for someone based on what they look like? Your Father doesn't care about what you look like, He doesn't factor your appearance into His love at all, His love which He likens to marriage. What is this website? Do you all not understand the God you serve? God never said "you're not worthy of marriage because you're not physically attractive", yet how can we all read "love one another as I have loved you" and ignore what that very love is?

It breaks my heart reading and engaging with all of this. There's nothing wrong with beauty but when your standards for what's beautiful is based on appearance you get your desires & beauty standards from the world. "For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.". How?! How can we ignore this definition of love? Every person I've engaged with about this topic has not quoted Scripture at me once. Not once. It's always vague Theology that justifies the desires of our flesh. You all know this, you all know how we're supposed to love one another. Please, for the sake of how you view the world and others, stop focusing on your own standards which are drawn from the society you currently exist in.

Edit: Always remember what part of us is born again. It's not the body (at least not yet). The second any of us make physical attraction a requirement for marriage you then make marriage dependent upon physical appearance. You can't justify that with Scripture as there's too many things that literally tell you the opposite and the marriage will end up dying by the same sword by which it's dependent upon when a partners looks fade. Love is more than what someone looks like and in actuality stands independent of looks, you know this because God loves you this way.

Edit 2: I love you all. Just wanted to add some Scripture to the conversation. God bless .

---

"You should clothe yourselves instead with the beauty that comes from within, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is so precious to God." -1 Peter 3:4
"beauty is vain" -Proverbs 31:30
"God does not view things the way people do. People look on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.” -1 Samuel 16:7
"Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day" -2 Corinthians 4:16
"Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?" -Matthew 6:25
"If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me." -Matthew 16:24
"For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace" -Romans 8:6
"Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him."-Acts 10:34-35
"For God shows no partiality"-Romans 2:11
"Just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another." -John 13:34
"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her" -Ephesians 5:25

 

[TheLastGeek]

I'm not slipping into a false piety and please I ask that you protect yourself from making such accusations in the future. "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.". I'm not calling beauty bad or evil, I'm calling it vain.

Dude, with all due respect, you made accusations first.

I don't think it's useful to continue this exchange, so God bless.

 

[TheLastGeek]

Roll that beautiful bean footage!

This post wins.

 

[Plenipotent]

This is my personal belief, and I had contemplated sharing something similar earlier but decided against it. My perspective revolves around the notion that you might not fully grasp what she means when she asserts that physical attraction should not play a significant role in relationships. In my view, it does hold importance, not because it should, not because it's the way God intended, but because sin has tainted our world in this manner.

There are very few individuals who can completely overlook physical attributes when it comes to matters of love and intimacy. After all, physical appearance is the initial aspect we notice when encountering someone. I perceive this as one of the first things that got distorted during the fall. When Adam and Eve realized they were naked and felt no shame, they still chose to cover up. I've personally interpreted this as potentially meaning, "They saw each other naked, found each other attractive, recognized that their mutual attraction had implications for their relationship, and covered up in an attempt to preserve the covenant that God had established." Of course, this interpretation is open to debate. I could be full of beans, I'm often full of beans.

In my perspective, this could be the point at which God's marital covenant became tainted, and it began at physical appearance. Looks didn't matter while they resided in the garden, it was only when sin entered the picture that it corrupted God's covenant. Therefore, to claim that physical attraction doesn't matter at all is an incorrect assertion to me. It does matter, albeit not necessarily in the conventional sense. Such thoughts should lead one to reflect on the teachings of the Bible. All forms of sin should have us running to God. Perhaps 'beauty' is a test of faith we all must grapple with?

In my view, physical appearance does matter because I can see that it does. If it didn't, this conversation wouldn't be happening. I can see that attractiveness holds significance in the world around us. If it didn't, many societal issues would just not exist. Ideally, looks shouldn't matter. God did not design it that way. In a perfect marriage, physical appearance would carry no weight. However, it does matter because no one on Earth experiences a perfect marriage. It matters to us because we are all sinners and fall short of God's glory.

You both feel strongly about the way you perceive it's importance. That makes it important. Look into it more, use it as an opportunity to bring yourselves closer to God instead of against one another. Use it as an opportunity to get closer to God by helping one another. Open the dialogue. Learn from each other.

I do disagree with the notion that God created beauty though, I will say that. When God created everything, He didn't describe it as beautiful. He described it as good. We, as humans, are the ones who ascribe beauty to things. We look around and declare, "Wow, this is beautiful!" Moreover, we establish our own beauty standards. In various regions of the world, for instance, individuals who are overweight may be considered beautiful due to what their weight signifies about their livelihood, though this is not universally accepted. Pale skin may be deemed beautiful in parts of Asia, while dark skin is celebrated in different African cultures. Throughout history, conflicts have arisen due to differences in appearance. God didn't instigate this, it was our own doing. Everyone possesses their own opinions about what constitutes beauty, but God didn't imbue it with beauty, it is beautiful because God created it.

In essence, I believe both of you agree that looks should not be of paramount importance in relationships. However, Tranquil seems to assert that since looks shouldn't matter, they don't, and we should not grant them power in our relationships. Meanwhile, Geek appears to believe that although looks shouldn't matter, they do have a role to play in our relationships, and it is beneficial to find the good within the sin that has befallen us.

AND AGAIN... I could be full 'o beans and they might be ready to get baked right now... I think you both recognize that looks should not be the primary focus. Nevertheless, your paths diverge in how you approach this principle and thus you can't see the agreement you're both making on the subject. And that's my 23 cents.

 

[Saucy]

Good thing I'm hot then.

 

[Plenipotent]

I'll be the jerk here and state the obvious: attraction matters. It has always mattered in marriage, because marriage is a bond of intimacy that is more complex than just a deep friendship. There is the physical connection that God designed to be a part of marriage. We are actually supposed to enjoy that attraction for our spouse. You can't marry someone just because you think they are a decent person/ Christian. There has to be some form of chemistry present in addition to the spiritual compatibility, otherwise you are just having fellowship with another Christian. It's not shallow or less spiritual to seek out someone who is Godly and also attractive to you. This has nothing to do with chasing after beauty or charm. There are so many different variables that add up to create attraction. Personality, wit, intelligence, smiles or mannerisms, confidence, etc in addition to Godliness and a passion for spiritual things all factor in to attraction. Since you will spend the rest of your life with one person and forsake all others, it's obvious you need to have a special connection with that person that is different from how you feel about others.

Also, the notion that women don't care about looks is just false. I don't know who came up with that idea. We have eyes too last I checked haha. Maybe women value other attributes more highly than appearance, but I've never met a woman who didn't notice physical traits or have a preference.

The encouraging thing is that attraction is so subjective and unique to the individual. While there may be some traits that are considered universally attractive, there are so many little things that will add or detract to attraction for each person. That's what makes chemistry special between a couple.

Side note: my favorite breed of dog is the basset hound. I love them and gush over them. They are kind of a silly, deformed breed, but that's my favorite of all dogs. Not everyone has the same tastes I see beauty where others see jowls and long wrinkly ears haha

So do you mean to say that someone's inner beauty can change the way you see them physically?

 

[peaceful-forest]

Since we're talking about physical attraction, I want to add my experience.

I used to be shallow when it came to men; I would "fall in love" with a guy because of his physical appearance. I changed in the second half of my 20s. There was a guy at work that I did not find physically attractive. But after being around him awhile, I found other traits that he had that were attractive: he was quiet, he did his job instead of slacking off, and he was knowledgeable about computers. After I found his inner qualities attractive, I started finding his outside qualities attractive too.

So it is possible to find someone physically attractive once you find their inner qualities attractive.

 

[Citanul]

The encouraging thing is that attraction is so subjective and unique to the individual. While there may be some traits that are considered universally attractive, there are so many little things that will add or detract to attraction for each person. That's what makes chemistry special between a couple.

To add to this, people are wired to be attracted to the opposite sex in general. That doesn't mean that someone is going to find every single person attractive, but it does mean that mean that when we say we're looking for someone who we'd be attracted to it doesn't mean that they have to look like a model.

 

[Plenipotent]

I'm going to step aside from this conversation at this point. It's not that I don't want to continue or read others' opinions (I actually find it quite interesting), but I intentionally refrained from sharing my thoughts on this specifically in my initial post because I felt it diverged significantly from the main topic of this discussion. I anticipated that this particular topic might generate a lot of strong emotions and potentially derail the entire thread, so I'm reluctant to backtrack on my original decision.

Nonetheless, this could make for a worthwhile standalone thread, and I genuinely believe that many of the opinions expressed here have been both captivating and valid!

 

[.Mikha'el.]

If I recall, you mentioned in a previous post that you were working a lot, going to college, teaching Sunday school, and other things. It sounds to me like you have enough else on your plate right now that dating's not really a priority right now. I seriously don't think you should worry about it.

 

[TheLastGeek]

So do you mean to say that someone's inner beauty can change the way you see them physically?

Absolutely. I don't know if this is more of a female trait, but a man who can inspire respect, admiration, and trust in me... I'm gonna start swooning. Doesn't matter if he's got a bald spot, poochy belly, whatever. Touch my heart and I'm mush.

 

[timewerx]

Hey everyone!
So, I could use some advice. As some of you know, I've recently made many positive changes in my life. I've worked on myself mentally, physically, and emotionally. I lost 250 pounds and am now working full-time, going to college, and working at my church as a pastoral intern. I certainly have a lot going on, but the one thing I'm missing is love in my life. I've had several people encouraging me to put myself out there, but I guess I still struggle with that.

Congratulations!

Yet don't treat life like a list or formula. Do not expect one thing will lead to another.

The road to misery is having many expectations. I've been down that road and it ruined many relationships, destroyed many good Christians.

 

[ReesePiece23]

Bella said something integral to this situation in the opening paragraph of her post that must be well understood; your journey has been an exceptional one and FAR beyond the usual realms of "dating woes" - you're in a league of your own here, which actually puts you at an advantage, as it means your character will evolve in an interesting way, that reflects the extraordinary journey you've taken.

Women aren't these elusive, impossible to please, "prizes" that aim to trip us up and eliminate us like we're in a job interview, they're people just like you and me. People who have taken their own journey, are dealing with their own insecurities, and who have their own experiences that have led them to meeting you.

They want communication: something you're good at.

They want someone emphatic and attentive: yep, that's you again.

Someone with autonomy: well, I'd say that with your progression of late, autonomy without a doubt, applies to you as well.

When we talk about "the nice guy" who never gets the girl, we're talking about someone who lacks that autonomy and "get up and go" to make strides towards a goal. It's a terrible habit society has gotten into having labels like "nice guy" and "bad guy" because they ultimately mean nothing.

Women may find my face attractive, (well, not all, because if they want a blonde haired, blue eyed boy, I'll never be their type) but it's my ability to talk, listen - (most important), and remember small details about them on an emotional level, that will make them want to spend meaningful time with me. Chivalry also isn't dead, but avoid being a knight in shining armour. If your armour is shiny, it's only because you haven't fought any battles, but YOU have Saucy, so wear those battle impacts with pride.

Do pay the bill though. Lol. That's an unwritten rule I follow that I can never break.

 

[TheLastGeek]

Bella said something integral to this situation in the opening paragraph of her post that must be well understood; your journey has been an exceptional one and FAR beyond the usual realms of "dating woes" - you're in a league of your own here, which actually puts you at an advantage, as it means your character will evolve in an interesting way, that reflects the extraordinary journey you've taken.

Women aren't these elusive, impossible to please, "prizes" that aim to trip us up and eliminate us like we're in a job interview, they're people just like you and me. People who have taken their own journey, are dealing with their own insecurities, and who have their own experiences that have led them to meeting you.

They want communication: something you're good at.

They want someone emphatic and attentive: yep, that's you again.

Someone with autonomy: well, I'd say that with your progression of late, autonomy without a doubt, applies to you as well.

When we talk about "the nice guy" who never gets the girl, we're talking about someone who lacks that autonomy and "get up and go" to make strides towards a goal. It's a terrible habit society has gotten into having labels like "nice guy" and "bad guy" because they ultimately mean nothing.

Women may find my face attractive, (well, not all, because if they want a blonde haired, blue eyed boy, I'll never be their type) but it's my ability to talk, listen - (most important), and remember small details about them on an emotional level, that will make them want to spend meaningful time with me. Chivalry also isn't dead, but avoid being a knight in shining armour. If your armour is shiny, it's only because you haven't fought any battles, but YOU have Saucy, so wear those battle impacts with pride.

Do pay the bill though. Lol. That's an unwritten rule I follow that I can never break.

Another excellent post! Especially THIS. Oh, how I wish I could impress this - with a hammer if necessary, lol - into the brain of every man on earth.

"Women aren't these elusive, impossible to please, "prizes" that aim to trip us up and eliminate us like we're in a job interview, they're people just like you and me. People who have taken their own journey, are dealing with their own insecurities, and who have their own experiences that have led them to meeting you."

 

[ReesePiece23]

Another excellent post! Especially THIS. Oh, how I wish I could impress this - with a hammer if necessary, lol - into the brain of every man on earth.

"Women aren't these elusive, impossible to please, "prizes" that aim to trip us up and eliminate us like we're in a job interview, they're people just like you and me. People who have taken their own journey, are dealing with their own insecurities, and who have their own experiences that have led them to meeting you."

Thank you,

The problem I keep seeing is that men seem programmed to follow stupid formulas these days, whether that be through listening to peers, or ten a penny "dating gurus" online, which I believe is not only wrong, but is 100% to blame for the misunderstandings, and this "ghosting" pandemic that seems rife within the 18-30 range.

It's always a case by case basis. There's no "right" way, it's simply a process of listening, caring enough to hear her, and actually showing empathy and understanding for the woman who is giving her time to you.

The only thing that matters is that "deeper level of attraction" - and you won't get there by following a formula or by playing it cool (or the other extreme, lavishing her with gifts and writing her poetry after the first date) the ONLY way to get there is through communication and understanding. Doesn't matter if you're the best looking man in the world, it counts for nothing if you can't reach that deeper level.

Being sensitive to her needs/insecurities and showing the compassion and willingness to understand them, is the start of it. I don't have to be a woman myself to apply common sense.

 

[Saucy]

Bella said something integral to this situation in the opening paragraph of her post that must be well understood; your journey has been an exceptional one and FAR beyond the usual realms of "dating woes" - you're in a league of your own here, which actually puts you at an advantage, as it means your character will evolve in an interesting way, that reflects the extraordinary journey you've taken.

Women aren't these elusive, impossible to please, "prizes" that aim to trip us up and eliminate us like we're in a job interview, they're people just like you and me. People who have taken their own journey, are dealing with their own insecurities, and who have their own experiences that have led them to meeting you.

They want communication: something you're good at.

They want someone emphatic and attentive: yep, that's you again.

Someone with autonomy: well, I'd say that with your progression of late, autonomy without a doubt, applies to you as well.

When we talk about "the nice guy" who never gets the girl, we're talking about someone who lacks that autonomy and "get up and go" to make strides towards a goal. It's a terrible habit society has gotten into having labels like "nice guy" and "bad guy" because they ultimately mean nothing.

Women may find my face attractive, (well, not all, because if they want a blonde haired, blue eyed boy, I'll never be their type) but it's my ability to talk, listen - (most important), and remember small details about them on an emotional level, that will make them want to spend meaningful time with me. Chivalry also isn't dead, but avoid being a knight in shining armour. If your armour is shiny, it's only because you haven't fought any battles, but YOU have Saucy, so wear those battle impacts with pride.

Do pay the bill though. Lol. That's an unwritten rule I follow that I can never break.

This is a great post! Thank you! I got a lot out of it!