Adventists affirm Mark 1:15 regarding Dan 9 and the 70 weeks prophecy and pre-advent Investigative Judgment of Dan 7

[tall73]

Now, many people make the argument that the Investigative Judgement was put forward as a means of explaining the lack of Christ’s appearance when the Great Disappointment occurred.

For my part, I have never understood why the Great Disappointment and other similar events can even happen, considering our Lord stated that the time of His return was known to the Father above, but not man; indeed the time of our Lord’s return appears to be epistemologically unknowable according to divine writ.

Exactly!

Matthew 24:4 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

I Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Or even stranger yet how Ellen White could endorse that message of Jesus' coming in 1843 as "heavenly" and "saving truth", and say that those who rejected it were lost.

Folks can read about it in detail here:

Ellen White: William Miller's message of Jesus coming in 1843 was "heavenly".

William Miller, who started the Millerite movement, preached that Jesus' second coming would occur around 1843. Jesus did not return in 1843. Then the Millerites revised it to 1844. Jesus did not return in 1844. Eventually the Millerite movement settled on the date of Oct. 22, 1844. Jesus did...

www.christianforums.com

In regards to the Adventist sanctuary doctrine, Donald Barnhouse, at Eternity Magazine said it was "the most colossal, psychological, face-saving phenomenon in religious history!" in one of their treatments of the SDA church.

 

[tall73]

Well, congratulations, but what you are affirming is not a doctrine the majority of Christians believe those Scriptures allude to. Indeed, I personally do not see how you can get from the texts you quoted to the conclusion that there is now an “investigative judgement,” which is something not mentioned in any of the eschatological texts in scripture. It represents an extremely esoteric and eisegetic interpretation of certain texts.

Now, many people make the argument that the Investigative Judgement was put forward as a means of explaining the lack of Christ’s appearance when the Great Disappointment occurred.

For my part, I have never understood why the Great Disappointment and other similar events can even happen, considering our Lord stated that the time of His return was known to the Father above, but not man; indeed the time of our Lord’s return appears to be epistemologically unknowable according to divine writ.

But I will note that the interpretation of Daniel 9 which was the main focus of the thread so far is different from the treatment of Daniel 8.

And as I noted even contemporary sources in the Essene community were interpreting Daniel's 70 weeks as pointing to an anointed One who would fulfill the prophecies of Isaiah and bring in the true Jubilee in regards to Christ's FIRST coming to earth.

 

[BobRyan]

from the OP

Affirming Mark 1:15
==============================================

Dan 9 has a 70 weeks (490 days... becomes day-for-year 490 years) timeline predicting the coming of Christ.
Then in Mark 1:15 Christ says that the prediction of the first part - the 483 years is fulfilled with the start of His ministry

Mark 1:

9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit, like a dove, descending upon Him; 11 and a voice came from the heavens: “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”​

12 And immediately the Spirit *brought Him out into the wilderness. 13 And He was in the wilderness for forty days, being tempted by Satan; and He was with the wild animals, and the angels were serving Him.​

14 Now after John was taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”​

​

16 As He was going along the Sea of Galilee, He saw Simon and Andrew, the brother of Simon, casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen. 17 And Jesus said to them, “Follow Me, and I will have you become fishers of people.” 18 Immediately they left their nets and followed Him.​

In Mark 1 we see the start of Jesus' ministry and it includes the message that the Dan 9 timeline predicting the exact year of Christ's first coming - had been fulfilled.

Dan 9:
24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. 25 So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with streets and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing

We find information about that decree referenced above in Dan 9 --- in Ezra 6,7 and in Ezra 9k

Ezra 6 tells us it is a 3-part decree with Cyrus, Darius and Artaxerxes all contributing to it.
14 And the elders of the Jews were successful in building through the prophecy of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they finished building following the command of the God of Israel and the decree of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.

Ezra 7: 8-9 --- in 457 B.C.

8 And he ( Ezra the priest) came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which was in the seventh year of the king.(Artaxerxes king of Persia) 9 For on the first day of the first month he began to go up from Babylon; and on the first of the fifth month he came to Jerusalem, because the good hand of his God was upon him. 10 For Ezra had firmly resolved to study the Law of the Lord and to practice it, and to teach His statutes and ordinances in Israel.​

11 Now this is the copy of the letter which King Artaxerxes gave to Ezra the priest, the scribe, learned in the words of the commandments of the Lord and His statutes to Israel: 12 “Artaxerxes, king of kings, to Ezra the priest,​

(vs 15-23 treasures, gifts, gold to be sent with Ezra)


Ezra's prayer

Ezra 9:9 For we are slaves; yet in our bondage our God has not abandoned us, but has extended favor to us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to give us reviving to erect the house of our God, to restore its ruins, and to give us a wall in Judah and Jerusalem​

======================

Dan 9 is given as an "explanation" to the vision of Dan 8... because among other things - Dan 8 has no start date and Dan 9 gives an exact start date.
Dan 9 is the only OT prophecy with a timeline pointing to the start date of the Messiah's ministry.

So then the 490 years of Dan 9 starts in 457 B.C.
And the 2300 years (day for year) in Dan 8 start in 457 B.C.

Or even stranger yet how Ellen White could endorse that message of Jesus' coming in 1843 as "heavenly" and "saving truth",

Step 1 - look at the actual texts as noted above
Step 2 - math

Well, congratulations, but what you are affirming is not a doctrine the majority of Christians believe those Scriptures allude to.

Until you notice how many of them affirm Mark 1:15 and the fact that Jesus' ministry began early in the first century - and the fact that the OT predicted the first coming of Christ...

Indeed, I personally do not see how you can get from the texts you quoted to the conclusion that there is now an “investigative judgement,”

How about a discussion of "the details" then - because Dan 7 ALONE already established the fact of a pre-advent investigative (out of books) judgment where "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 and the Judgment event is explicitly stated in vs 9-11.

which is something not mentioned in any of the eschatological texts in scripture.

Until you read Daniel 7.

 

[BobRyan]

In regards to the Adventist sanctuary doctrine, Donald Barnhouse, at Eternity Magazine said it was "the most colossal, psychological, face-saving phenomenon in religious history!" in one of their treatments of the SDA church.

Just as many atheists argue against the "resurrection" claims of the disciples of Christ on resurrection Sunday, claiming it as a "colossal face saving idea".

I prefer paying attention "to scripture details" as noted in the OP for a productive discussion. I find that much more compelling.

 

[BobRyan]

As the time draws near for the end of Jeremiah's time period, based on the sabbatical years, the years they didn't keep prior

results in the 70 years of captivity in Babylon. Where the land gets to its rest.

And of course that is the first part of Dan 9... turns out the second part of Dan 9 and its 490 year timeline - also "exists" where it specifically points to 483 years that pin point the Mark 1:15 year Christ is in as He says that the timeline is fulfilled.

 

[tall73]

results in the 70 years of captivity in Babylon. Where the land gets to its rest.

And of course that is the first part of Dan 9... turns out the second part of Dan 9 and its 490 year timeline - also "exists" where it specifically points to 483 years that pin point the Mark 1:15 year Christ is in as He says that the timeline is fulfilled.

Of course it also exists. And even the essenes noted that they were sabbatical years.

 

[tall73]

Just as many atheists argue against the "resurrection" claims of the disciples of Christ on resurrection Sunday, claiming it as a "colossal face saving idea".

I prefer paying attention "to scripture details" as noted in the OP for a productive discussion. I find that much more compelling.

The resurrection happened.

But more to Liturgist's point, the disappointment did not need to happen if they had paid attention to "scripture details".

Matthew 24:4 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

I Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

But even if they somehow missed those "scripture details" Ellen White says everyone from ministers to scoffers repeated them to them again and again.

 

[The Liturgist]

from the OP

Affirming Mark 1:15
==============================================

Dan 9 has a 70 weeks (490 days... becomes day-for-year 490 years) timeline predicting the coming of Christ.
Then in Mark 1:15 Christ says that the prediction of the first part - the 483 years is fulfilled with the start of His ministry

Mark 1:

9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit, like a dove, descending upon Him; 11 and a voice came from the heavens: “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”​

12 And immediately the Spirit *brought Him out into the wilderness. 13 And He was in the wilderness for forty days, being tempted by Satan; and He was with the wild animals, and the angels were serving Him.​

14 Now after John was taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”​

​

16 As He was going along the Sea of Galilee, He saw Simon and Andrew, the brother of Simon, casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen. 17 And Jesus said to them, “Follow Me, and I will have you become fishers of people.” 18 Immediately they left their nets and followed Him.​

In Mark 1 we see the start of Jesus' ministry and it includes the message that the Dan 9 timeline predicting the exact year of Christ's first coming - had been fulfilled.

Dan 9:
24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. 25 So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with streets and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing

We find information about that decree referenced above in Dan 9 --- in Ezra 6,7 and in Ezra 9k

Ezra 6 tells us it is a 3-part decree with Cyrus, Darius and Artaxerxes all contributing to it.
14 And the elders of the Jews were successful in building through the prophecy of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they finished building following the command of the God of Israel and the decree of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.

Ezra 7: 8-9 --- in 457 B.C.

8 And he ( Ezra the priest) came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which was in the seventh year of the king.(Artaxerxes king of Persia) 9 For on the first day of the first month he began to go up from Babylon; and on the first of the fifth month he came to Jerusalem, because the good hand of his God was upon him. 10 For Ezra had firmly resolved to study the Law of the Lord and to practice it, and to teach His statutes and ordinances in Israel.​

11 Now this is the copy of the letter which King Artaxerxes gave to Ezra the priest, the scribe, learned in the words of the commandments of the Lord and His statutes to Israel: 12 “Artaxerxes, king of kings, to Ezra the priest,​

(vs 15-23 treasures, gifts, gold to be sent with Ezra)


Ezra's prayer

Ezra 9:9 For we are slaves; yet in our bondage our God has not abandoned us, but has extended favor to us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to give us reviving to erect the house of our God, to restore its ruins, and to give us a wall in Judah and Jerusalem​

======================

Dan 9 is given as an "explanation" to the vision of Dan 8... because among other things - Dan 8 has no start date and Dan 9 gives an exact start date.
Dan 9 is the only OT prophecy with a timeline pointing to the start date of the Messiah's ministry.

So then the 490 years of Dan 9 starts in 457 B.C.
And the 2300 years (day for year) in Dan 8 start in 457 B.C.


Step 1 - look at the actual texts as noted above
Step 2 - math

Until you notice how many of them affirm Mark 1:15 and the fact that Jesus' ministry began early in the first century - and the fact that the OT predicted the first coming of Christ...

How about a discussion of "the details" then - because Dan 7 ALONE already established the fact of a pre-advent investigative (out of books) judgment where "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 and the Judgment event is explicitly stated in vs 9-11.

Until you read Daniel 7.

I have read Daniel 7 and I have read absolutely nothing that corresponds with the doctrine of the Investigative Judgement as expounded by EGW. Rather what it describes is the Eschaton, when after the last trumpet, all shall be raised, when Christ Pantocrator will assume the dread judgement seat of God and the Book of Life will be opened, with the saved going to the World to Come and the reprobate being damned to the outer darkness for all eternity. And this is not a controversial statement. You seem to be using basically the same text all Christians understand as the basis for the Last Judgement as traditionally defined and claiming that it uniquely and specifically tallies with the unique interpretation of the Investigative Judgement as presented by Ellen G. White, which the majority of Christians including myself disagree with.

So, since there is a lack of any specific scripture to support the doctrine of the Investigative Judgement as presented in its entirety by EGW and other Adventists, we come to the realm of reason, which together with scripture and logic represents one of the three pillars of Anglican exegesis, and one of the four pillars of the Wesleyan quadrilateral, the fourth being experience. But to focus in on reason for a moment, which is to say logic, how is it that the incarnate Logos, Christ our God, would need to conduct an investigative judgement that would take time, considering that He is and always has been omniscient? The Book of Life might not even literally exist, but rather might be a theological concept pointing to the knowledge of God as to those actions of ours which constitute sin and those which constitute virtue, and the negative balance we all owe, and the question as to whether or not we have come to trust in Christ our true God for forgiveness of sin, and through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, our Paraclete, have begun to repent.

 

[tall73]

tall73 said:
Or even stranger yet how Ellen White could endorse that message of Jesus' coming in 1843 as "heavenly" and "saving truth",

Step 1 - look at the actual texts as noted above
Step 2 - math

No Bob, that does not make Miller's message, that Jesus was coming in 1843, then 1844, "heavenly" or "saving truth" because it was a false message completely. Jesus did not come in 1843 or 1844. She says God wanted to test people. But that is of course complete spin.

They ignored what the Scriptures said to give the false message in the first place.

Matthew 24:4 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

I Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Her argument that those who actually followed what Jesus said were lost because of it is ridiculous.

You have not tried, and could not, answer that objection. Because to do so you would have to say that the only way to pass the test Ellen White alleges is to ignore Jesus' own words.

 

[tall73]

because Dan 7 ALONE already established the fact of a pre-advent investigative (out of books) judgment

You already started out by changing the entire nature of the type in the first place, from what Scripture says.

From the Adventist fundamental belief on the Sanctuary:

In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary. It is a work of investigative judgment

Instead of what Leviticus 16 describes the High Priest as actually doing when He goes into the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement you have a judgement of individual cases, investigation of books, etc. None of that matches the text. Here is what the text says the high priest does when entering the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement:

Leviticus 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. 16 So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 There shall be no man in the tabernacle of meeting when he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself, for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel.

The High Priest in the Most Holy Place applies cleansing blood to make atonement for the sanctuary and for all the assembly of Israel.

There is no reference to books, to investigation, or to individual cases. It is a corporate provision for the whole camp.

It is outside where those who do not afflict themselves are cut off from the camp. But there is no investigation work being done in the type by the High Priest.

Jesus provided that entry by means of blood into God's presence for us in the first century. Now we accept it or not, and are cut off or not.

Hebrews 1:3b When He had by Himself made purfication of sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the holies once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

9:23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself

The text says Jesus entered once for all, by means of blood. That won't be happening again, because it already happened. So Ellen White's vision of the door for the first time being opened to the Most Holy Place is wrong:

(Review and Herald, August 1, 1849 par. 2)

This door was not opened, until the mediation of Jesus was finished in the Holy Place of the Sanctuary in 1844. Then, Jesus rose up, and shut the door in the Holy Place, and opened the door in the Most Holy, and passed within the second vail, where he now stands by the Ark; and where the faith of Israel now reaches. (Review and Herald, August 1, 1849 par. 2)

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the holy places once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Entry was not "by means of" blood into the first compartment of the sanctuary. And goats blood only went into the sanctuary on two occasions, the inauguration, and the Day of Atonement.

And here Jesus did it once for all, in the first century. There will be no more entries.

Jesus already entered into God's presence for us:

9:24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us

 

[tall73]

It is hard to avoid the conclusion that the small band which formed the Adventist church had some major blind spots. The first is already belabored at length. The whole history of the Millerites should not have happened, because their movement was an error, and more than an error, an ignoring of Scripture:

Matthew 24:4 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

I Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

But secondly, they were not even aware there was a sanctuary in heaven prior to this:

Great Controversy, chapter 23

"In common with the rest of the Christian world, Adventists then held that the earth, or some portion of it, was the sanctuary."

And a bit later on:

"In their investigation they learned that there is no Scripture evidence sustaining the popular view that the earth is the sanctuary; but they found in the Bible a full explanation of the subject of the sanctuary, its nature, location, and services; the testimony of the sacred writers being so clear and ample as to place the matter beyond all question. The apostle Paul, in the Epistle to the Hebrews, says..."

To claim that the rest of the Christian world was ignorant of the book of Hebrews, and its reference to the heavenly sanctuary is completely untrue.

For centuries Christians had known and spoken of it.

Chrysostom:

Philip Schaff: NPNF1-14. Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on the Gospel of St. John and the Epistle to the Hebrews - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

ccel.org

“For Christ is not entered into the Holy Places made with hands” (he says) “which are the figures3102 of the True.” (These then are true; and those are figures,3103 for the temple too has been so arranged,3104 as the Heaven of Heavens.)

Cyril of Jerusalem:

Philip Schaff: NPNF2-07. Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory Nazianzen - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

ccel.org

For the mystery has been fulfilled; the things that are written have been accomplished; sins are forgiven. For Christ being come an High-Priest of the good things to come, by the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation, nor yet by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption; for if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer, sprinkling the defiled, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh, how much more the blood of Christ1625? And again, Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which He hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh1


Augustine:

Philip Schaff: NPNF1-08. St. Augustine: Exposition on the Book of Psalms - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

ccel.org

What doth He, who is at the right hand of God, and intercedeth for us,4974 like a priest entering into the inner places, and into the holy of holies, into the mysteries of heaven, He alone being without sin, and therefore easily purifying from sins

And not just centuries ago was this known, but was still known in the time leading up to 1844:

Matthew Henry:

Hebrews 9 - Henry's Complete Commentary on the Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Hebrews 9, Henry's Complete Commentary on the Bible, Matthew Henry's Commentary offers profound insights through meticulous analysis and historical context for Christian understanding.

www.studylight.org

Christ, our high priest, has entered into heaven, not as their high priest entered into the holiest, with the blood of bulls and of goats, but by his own blood, typified by theirs, and infinitely more precious. And this,

Not for one year only, which showed the imperfection of that priesthood, that it did but typically obtain a year's reprieve or pardon. But our high priest entered into heaven once for all, and has obtained not a yearly respite, but eternal redemption, and so needs not to make an annual entrance.

Robert Haldane:

Hebrews 9 - Haldane's Exposition on the Epistle to the Romans and Hebrews - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Hebrews 9, Haldane's Exposition on the Epistle to the Romans and Hebrews, Haldane's Exposition on Romans & Hebrews provides rich insights, delving into original texts and historical context for deeper understanding.

www.studylight.org

He is set at the right hand of the majesty in the heavens. Hebrews 8:1. This is the sanctuary of which He is minister. This is the true tabernacle into which He has entered by His own blood.

Albert Barnes:

Hebrews 9 - Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Hebrews 9, Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible, Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible provides Christians with deep insights into the Scriptures, emphasizing original texts and historical context.

www.studylight.org

By a greater and more perfect tabernacle - The meaning is, that Christ officiated as high priest in a much more magnificent and perfect temple than either the tabernacle or the temple under the old dispensation. He performed the great functions of his priestly office - the sprinkling of the blood of the atonement - in heaven itself, of which the most holy place in the tabernacle was but the emblem.

 

[tall73]

And then you have Ellen White's strange statements in Early Writings that the nominal churches who rejected Miller's message are praying to the wrong "apartment", the holy place which Jesus left, and that Satan is there to intercept their prayers!

Early Writings:

Then a cloudy chariot, with wheels like flaming fire, surrounded by angels, came to where Jesus was. He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the holiest, where the Father sat. There I beheld Jesus, a great High Priest, standing before the Father. On the hem of His garment was a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate. Those who rose up with Jesus would send up their faith to Him in the holiest, and pray, "My Father, give us Thy Spirit." Then Jesus would breathe upon them the Holy Ghost. In that breath was light, power, and much love, joy, and peace. [56]

I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne; they did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne, and pray, "Father, give us Thy Spirit." Satan would then breathe upon them an unholy influence; in it there was light and much power, but no sweet love, joy, and peace. Satan's object was to keep them deceived and to draw back and deceive God's children.

---------


And by rejecting the two former messages, they have so darkened their understanding that they can see no light in the third angel's message, which shows the way into the most holy place. I saw that as the Jews crucified Jesus, so the nominal churches had crucified these messages, and therefore they have no knowledge of the way into the most holy, and they cannot be benefited by the intercession of Jesus there. Like the Jews, who offered their useless sacrifices, they offer up their useless prayers to the apartment which Jesus has left; and Satan, pleased with the deception, assumes a religious character, and leads the minds of these professed Christians to himself, working with his power, his signs and lying wonders, to fasten them in his snare.
----------

This of course is quite strange, because people pray to Jesus, not to an apartment of the sanctuary. And I already demonstrated that the other churches did not need to discover the book of Hebrews, or the sanctuary in heaven, and already knew where Christ was.

Those who were thinking of heavenly geography would know that they were approaching the throne of grace:

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[BobRyan]

I hold the same view of the 70 weeks as Adventists.

ok I did not see that coming.

But the basis is sabbatical years.

not according to the actual text of Dan 9.

24 “Seventy weeks (490 days/years) have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. 25 So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; (69 weeks is 483 days/years) it will be built again, with streets and moat, even in times of distress.

Remember the other statement about Jesus' mission:

Luke 4:16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.

does not change Dan 9.

17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:


18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me [i]to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are [j]oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”

is his mission at the 483 year point. But does not get us to "sabbatical years"
Is not a reference to Jubilee years either since liberty in this context is not at all in the context of property or condoned servitude having a break

20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

Indeed Christ proclaimed the ONE Gospel message "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8 -- no doubt.

If you wish to have your own odd angle about Jubilee added to these obvious statements where 490 days is - day-for-year, you have free will to do so -- I am not really complaining -- I just don't find it to be very direct, obvious or necessary given the fact that Dan 9 is much more direct than that.

I think the language used in Dan 9 is much more direct and a number of both SDA and non-SDA commentaries agree.

 

[BobRyan]

And then you have Ellen White's strange statements in Early Writings

This is what I meant when I responded "see what happens when I start a sola scriptura thread on Mark 1:15...

It did not take long.

 

[BobRyan]

It is hard to avoid the conclusion that the small band which formed the Adventist church had some major blind spots.

So you do or do not agree with the Mark 1:15 statement about the 483 year period pointed to in Dan 9.

Or did you want this thread to be about non-SDA Millerite history??

Or is it your claim that Millerites affect your view of Mark 1:15

The first is already belabored at length. The whole history of the Millerites should not have happened,

God knows the truth.
Some would say "Palm Sunday should not have happened" - because the disciples were wrong about what they said was about to happen.

 

[tall73]

This is what I meant when I responded "see what happens when I start a sola scriptura thread on Mark 1:15...

It did not take long.

I addressed it from Scripture. And even that was to correct the Ellen White claim about other churches interpretation of Scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

And then you have Ellen White's strange statements in Early Writings that the nominal churches who rejected Miller's message

Maybe you could put that into one of your all-ellen-white-all-the-time threads since apparently you are wrong about what your Early Writings quote was talking about with the phrase in your post "nominal churches".

This thread is about Mark 1:15 and Dan 9's 70 weeks prophecy.

 

[BobRyan]

As the time draws near for the end of Jeremiah's time period, based on the sabbatical years, the years they didn't keep prior, a prophecy is given in the context of sabbatical years, which points to the mission of the Messiah who then announces His mission in person in Jubilee terms, quoting Isaiah.

which is not the point of Dan 9's seventy week prophecy in vs 24-25 and is not the subject of Mark 1:15

 

[BobRyan]

In regards to the Adventist sanctuary doctrine, Donald Barnhouse, at Eternity Magazine said it was "the most colossal, psychological, face-saving phenomenon in religious history!" in one of their treatments of the SDA church.

1. This thread is not about Barnhouse
2. I never claimed that all non-SDAs agree with the Dan 7 chapter on the Investigative judgment, which is the same as the judgment in Rom 2:4-16, which is the same as the judgment we find in 2 Cor 5:10 ... there are a number of those other groups that have some odd ideas about what these chapters are talking about.
3. Nor did I claim they affirm all SDA doctrine.

this thread is about Mark 1:15 and Dan 9:24-26 70week prophecy of 490 years pointing to Christ's first coming.
And it is about the connection between Dan 7 and Dan 8.
And it is about the pre-advent Investigative judgment in Dan 7 just as the chapter presents it

 

[BobRyan]

I have read Daniel 7 and I have read absolutely nothing that corresponds with the doctrine of the Investigative Judgement

Then why not start with the actuall details of Dan 7?? I notice that you reference not one of them in your post.

Rather what it describes is the Eschaton, when after the last trumpet, all shall be raised,

There is nothing stated in Dan 9 about the Eschaton or last trumpet or resurrection. Try and actual quote of Dan 7 or Dan 9.

Where we find the court room in heaven vs 9-11, judgement vs 22, the court sits and the books are opened vs 9-10 and judgment is eventually passed "in favor of the saints" vs 22...

In other words - "the text" not simply

when Christ Pantocrator will assume the dread judgement seat of God and the Book of Life will be opened, with the saved going to the World to Come and the reprobate being damned to the outer darkness for all eternity.

Rev 20 is the only chapter that gets close - and that is not the Dan 7 topic at all.

If you are doing to make a statement about Dan 7 - then use the words of the actual chapter... pick a verse in it.

You seem to be using basically the same text all Christians understand as the basis for the Last Judgement

No matter who else thinks what - the chapter cannot be understood by carefully avoiding it.

the unique interpretation of the Investigative Judgement as presented by Ellen G. White

Looking carefully at the OP - we find that the verses matter and that your "as presented by Ellen White" is not even remotely in the topic.
There are "others" who are trying to start some all-ellen-white-all-the-time threads but this is not one of them.

So, since there is a lack of any specific scripture to support the doctrine of the Investigative Judgement

The Dan 7 chapter that you are ignoring is the one with those texts.. Why not address your comments to the actual verses in the chapter or is it your clam that Dan 7 does not exist so therefore there is no pre-advent Dan 7 judgment where the court sits and the books are opened and judgment is eventually passed "in favor of the saint" thus bringing in the age of Christ's rule - just as the chapter states????