• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

How did Arminian beliefs lead to Wesleyan theology?

Sors

Still Love This Movie
Sep 30, 2004
1,129
86
41
Texas
✟30,405.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
I think this might be more a request for literature so I apologize for that. But wikipedia seems to be a mess. Apparently Jacobus Arminius both influenced the anabaptists and the methodist split from the anglican church? I mean I get it on concepts of the Eucharist and Infant Baptism..But heck. Yall have any literature you would recommend. Would also love to hear any actual explanations yall have. But baptists and anglicans are pretty far apart. What I am missing? Probably a lot.
 

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
11,107
9,163
65
Martinez
✟1,137,390.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think this might be more a request for literature so I apologize for that. But wikipedia seems to be a mess. Apparently Jacobus Arminius both influenced the anabaptists and the methodist split from the anglican church? I mean I get it on concepts of the Eucharist and Infant Baptism..But heck. Yall have any literature you would recommend. Would also love to hear any actual explanations yall have. But baptists and anglicans are pretty far apart. What I am missing? Probably a lot.
From my understanding it was the issue of predestination and the factions within the Church of England that caused friction. Blessings.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sors
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,393
20,703
Orlando, Florida
✟1,502,467.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
I think this might be more a request for literature so I apologize for that. But wikipedia seems to be a mess. Apparently Jacobus Arminius both influenced the anabaptists and the methodist split from the anglican church? I mean I get it on concepts of the Eucharist and Infant Baptism..But heck. Yall have any literature you would recommend. Would also love to hear any actual explanations yall have. But baptists and anglicans are pretty far apart. What I am missing? Probably a lot.

It was an opinion in Anglicanism at the time of Wesley. Wesley wasn't the strictest Arminian necessarily, in the Dutch sense, but it was an idea that was circulating as an alternative to the Calvinist interpretation.

BTW, not all Puritans were strict Calvinists in the TULIP sense. There were a spectrum of views. .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sors
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,393
20,703
Orlando, Florida
✟1,502,467.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Arminius was basically a Reformed theologian, he was in that theological tradition. Arminian religion didn't differ in practice all that much from other Reformed Christians (infant baptism, etc.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: ladodgers6
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,324
791
Los Angeles
✟251,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Arminius was basically a Reformed theologian, he was in that theological tradition. Arminian religion didn't differ in practice all that much from other Reformed Christians (infant baptism, etc.)
Agreed, Classical Arminianism also taught Total Depravity. Here I'll provide a excerpt from Arminius himself.

"But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good." The Writings of Arminius pg. 252.

I used to be a Classical Arminian, then became a convinced Classical Calvinist. One of the biggest differences, is the application of Grace or Prevenient Grace. Arminians believe it can be resisted and rejected, so in essence, it is not the cause of one's salvation; it not effectual in saving anyone. Whereas in Calvinism Grace is effectual and unconditional. God's Grace has a purpose and saves God's people from their sins. Also another huge difference is that Calvinism holds to a Mongeristic Salvation, and Arminianism holds to a Synergistic one.

But if it's not all of Grace and if it's not effectual, then what is the cause and ground of it? So, Arminianism seems to be tilting towards Semi-Pelagianism.​
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sors
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,393
20,703
Orlando, Florida
✟1,502,467.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
The thing about the totality of TULIP, it doesn't seem particularly biblical, because there are parts of the Bible that speak of the possibility of apostasy. Even Lutherans wouldn't be on board with it, even though in general they are closer to the Reformed.

Katerina, Luther's wife, exemplifies this in her last words, "I shall cling to Christ like a thistle on a coat".
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
15,869
3,958
✟383,379.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I think this might be more a request for literature so I apologize for that. But wikipedia seems to be a mess. Apparently Jacobus Arminius both influenced the anabaptists and the methodist split from the anglican church? I mean I get it on concepts of the Eucharist and Infant Baptism..But heck. Yall have any literature you would recommend. Would also love to hear any actual explanations yall have. But baptists and anglicans are pretty far apart. What I am missing? Probably a lot.
There's a time when it becomes apparent, IMO, that love is the essence of justice or righteousness for man in Christian understanding, and that love, while a gift from God, is also a human choice. With my little knowledge of Wesleyan teachings, I believe this might apply.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,393
20,703
Orlando, Florida
✟1,502,467.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
There's a time when it becomes apparent, IMO, that love is the essence of justice or righteousness for man in Christian understanding, and that love, while a gift from God, is also a human choice. With my little knowledge of Wesleyan teachings, I believe this might apply.

Arminians don't regard love as a choice. No magisterial Protestant does, to my knowledge. Arminianism isn't semi-pelagianism. Rejecting love isn't the same as choosing love. In all cases, God must enable us to love.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
15,869
3,958
✟383,379.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Arminians don't regard love as a choice. No magisterial Protestant does, to my knowledge. Arminianism isn't semi-pelagianism.
If love comes from God, alone, then loving would not be semi-pelagian. Semi-pelagianism means to have something to begin with, which does not need to be acquired from outside of ourselves
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,393
20,703
Orlando, Florida
✟1,502,467.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
If love comes from God, alone, then loving would not be semi-pelagian. Semi-pelagianism means to have something to begin with, which does not need to be acquired from outside of ourselves

Do people ordinarily decide to love their children or spouses? I think we risk reducing love to something "clinical" if we just say it is a choice.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
15,869
3,958
✟383,379.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Do people ordinarily decide to love their children or spouses? I think we risk reducing love to something "clinical" if we just say it is a choice.
I b think it's both/and just as our relationship with God is. Some people allow their love for their children to be overcome or compromised by competing desires- and their children suffer as a result.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,393
20,703
Orlando, Florida
✟1,502,467.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
I b think it's both/and just as our relationship with God is. Some people allow their love for their children to be overcome or compromised by competing desires- and their children suffer as a result.

Sure, but we can't just will ourselves to be loving. It doesn't seem to work very well, at the very least. That's because people are badly flawed and fall short of ideals like love.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
15,869
3,958
✟383,379.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Sure, but we can't just will ourselves to be loving. It doesn't seem to work very well, at the very least. That's because people are badly flawed and fall short of ideals like love.
Very often I find that I fight the will to do some loving thing, preoccupied as I am with my own interests; the flesh is weak, etc. So now I'm striving more to place that love first-as Christ showed us to do. I appreciate the fact that the more I exercise and express that virtue, the stronger it will become-and the happier my life should be as well, incidentally. I'll let you know how it works out :).
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,393
20,703
Orlando, Florida
✟1,502,467.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Very often I find that I fight the will to do some loving thing, preoccupied as I am with my own interests; the flesh is weak, etc. So now I'm striving more to place that love first-as Christ showed us to do. I appreciate the fact that the more I exercise and express that virtue, the stronger it will become-and the happier my life should be as well, incidentally. I'll let you know how it works out :).

I think there's a tendency for human beings to even be deluded in the perceptions of their own virtues. In fact I think it's not uncommon even among Christians.

That's why I am a believer in grace. I don't believe human beings can save themselves.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
15,869
3,958
✟383,379.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I think there's a tendency for human beings to even be deluded in the perceptions of their own virtues. In fact I think it's not uncommon even among Christians.

That's why I am a believer in grace. I don't believe human beings can save themselves.
I believe God saves us through the virtues that He, alone, can grant. That's how grace works, not as some sort of carte blanc reprieve from the penalty of sin, but as the cure for the sin that separates us from Him.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,393
20,703
Orlando, Florida
✟1,502,467.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
I believe God saves us through the virtues that He, alone, can grant. That's how grace works, not as some sort of carte blanc reprieve from the penalty of sin, but as the cure for the sin that separates us from Him.

So if virtue is the cure for sin, what use is Christianity then? It seems to me that there are virtuous pagans, some surpassing Christians.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
15,869
3,958
✟383,379.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
So if virtue is the cure for sin, what use is Christianity then? It seems to me that there are virtuous pagans, some surpassing Christians.
True virtue: faith, hope, and love (agape) are available only from God. It's all about Who we fellowship with-and faith is the keyway to that vital communion that man was made for.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,463
8,137
50
The Wild West
✟752,362.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
So if virtue is the cure for sin, what use is Christianity then? It seems to me that there are virtuous pagans, some surpassing Christians.

One must positively accept the grace of the Holy Spirit to receive salvific faith in Christ and begin the process of Theosis, or deification, or as John Wesley called it, Entire Sanctification. We are called to be perfect even as the Father is perfect and the process of this perfection corresponds to the means of salvation, and occurs entirely as a result of synergy between the Holy Spirit and those who have been mystically grafted on to the Body of Christ.

This salvific faith comes with more Grace and the means to receive yet more of God’s uncreated Grace, which enables us to do yet more to conquer the passions and avoid sinful inclinations, substituting virtue for wickedness. We have to overcome our pride, our temper, our carnal appetites for food and sex, and subordinate the natural passions that drive these things so they no longer hold us in a state of total bondage, but rather, are put to the service of God through the practice of those virtues which without the grace of the Holy Spirit we would be unable to obtain.

Regarding Paganism, the error in your statement is to suppose that God does not bless everyone with His grace; some people get part of the message without accepting the whole program, and this is still good, because we should actively pray for their salvation, since God is love, and godliness is universally available to humans, similiar to the principle of General Revelation, which is an extremely useful Roman Catholic doctrine which explains how it is various non-Christian religions like Zoroastrianism, Taoism, Hinduism, Shintoism, Buddhism, even Islam, can promote the virtuous behaviors and also on occasion have correct insights about God without the specific revelations available to the ancient Hebrew religion and its contemporary continuation which is Christianity. For example, the ancient Egyptians, as pointed out by the Orthodox apologist Archpriest Andrew Stephen Damick in his deservedly popular Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy, had the correct idea of a God-man, but simply mistakenly identified Pharoah as that person, rather than Christ, who is the true Theanthropos, uniting our humanity with His divinity to remake us in the image of God.

And the process by which we are remade through faith in Christ is Theosis, or as John Wesley called it, Entire Sanctification.

It is a great pity that there are so very few Methodist churches which actually teach what John Wesley taught and even fewer which practice Christianity according to his neo-Patristic instructions. If a Methodist church taught Theosis and prayed the litany on the fast days of Wednesday and Friday, and stressed high-frequency but not casual communion on Sunday, I would join it.

Essentially what John Wesley was doing was setting up something like the Orthodox Church within the Church of England. Indeed he was even unable to deny having been ordained a bishop by the Greek Orthodox Erasmus of Arcadia. Unfortunately the Methodists in England did not stay within the Church of England but left; it should be noted that the schism between Methodists and Episcopalians in the United States is arguably accidental and the result of both groups having been cut off by the Church of England in terms of access to the episcopate and thus new clergy, but independently dealing with the problem without reference to each other.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: OldAbramBrown
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,463
8,137
50
The Wild West
✟752,362.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Unfortunately by the way the Remonstrant Church founded by Arminius, while still having 13 parishes, has become extremely doctrinally corrupt, to the point that they actually encourage new members to write their own creed, which sounds like the sort of thing you would expect to find Unitarian Universalists doing. Indeed the Remonstrant Church in the Netherlands and Germany is probably as close as you can get to Unitarian Universalism while remaining at least nominally Christian in the normative Trinitarian sense. But with everyone writing their own creed (which by the way is an action forbidden by the canons of the Council of Ephesus - we are not free to write our own symbol of faith or modify the Nicene Creed, although I believe we are free to compose hymns of a creedal nature, which we did see after Ephesus, for example, the hymns Ho Monogenes and Haw Nurone, which are confessions of Christological and Eucharistic faith and have creedal attributes, postdate the council of Severus, and interestingly, despite Ho Monogenes being used by every Orthodox Church, Eastern or Oriental, and also by most Eastern Catholics, both were written by major Syriac Orthodox saints, specifically St. Severus of Antioch and St. Jacob of Sarugh.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: OldAbramBrown
Upvote 0