How did Arminian beliefs lead to Wesleyan theology?

Sors

Still Love This Movie
Sep 30, 2004
1,129
86
40
Texas
✟22,605.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Unfortunately by the way the Remonstrant Church founded by Arminius, while still having 13 parishes, has become extremely doctrinally corrupt, to the point that they actually encourage new members to write their own creed, which sounds like the sort of thing you would expect to find Unitarian Universalists doing. Indeed the Remonstrant Church in the Netherlands and Germany is probably as close as you can get to Unitarian Universalism while remaining at least nominally Christian in the normative Trinitarian sense. But with everyone writing their own creed (which by the way is an action forbidden by the canons of the Council of Ephesus - we are not free to write our own symbol of faith or modify the Nicene Creed, although I believe we are free to compose hymns of a creedal nature, which we did see after Ephesus, for example, the hymns Ho Monogenes and Haw Nurone, which are confessions of Christological and Eucharistic faith and have creedal attributes, postdate the council of Severus, and interestingly, despite Ho Monogenes being used by every Orthodox Church, Eastern or Oriental, and also by most Eastern Catholics, both were written by major Syriac Orthodox saints, specifically St. Severus of Antioch and St. Jacob of Sarugh.
There is some good information in your post. but Arminius = Unitarian Universalism is absolutely ridiculous. Id love to have a real conversation with you about this if you would like.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,197
5,712
49
The Wild West
✟477,172.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
There is some good information in your post. but Arminius = Unitarian Universalism is absolutely ridiculous. Id love to have a real conversation with you about this if you would like.

Yes, asserting Arminius - Unitarian Universalism would indeed be utterly ridiculous, if I had actually said as much, which I did not. If you reread my post, it should be evident I am lamenting the present condition of the Remonstrant Church that Arminius founded, which if I lived in the Netherlands in the 1700s I probably would have joined, by the way, but my point is that its few surviving parishes (it has about 30,000 remaining members in half a dozen or so congregations in the Netherlands and one in Germany), have unfortunately, tragically, moved away from the very admirable doctrine of Arminius and the early Remonstrants and instead embraced an extreme post-Modernist theology, which is so extreme that church members are encouraged to write their own creeds, making belief in the Trinity effectively optional and causing the present day Remonstrant Church to be extremely close to the Unitarian Universalists or the contemporary English Universalists, in that the Remonstrants have become nearly post-Christian.

Nothing I was saying had any applicability to Arminius himself, except to the extent I would imagine he would be greatly indignant if he saw the current state of his denomination, and I doubt they will last much longer given the rapid decline of similar churches such as the UCC, so I myself would love to see a new Confessional Remonstrant Church, as there is not much in terms of traditional confessional churches in the Netherlands at present anyway, outside of Orthodox churches which have attracted some Dutch members but are not as popular as they are in, for example, the UK or the US, nor is there anything like the Mission Province of the Church of Sweden or the Norwegian Catholic Church. Instead one would likely have to join an aliturgical non-denominational megachurch, which is unfortunate.

Indeed the departure from a pure Wesleyan orthodoxy among Methodist churches and other Wesleyan churches which you would expect from the name would want to worship using his Sunday Service Book and follow the Patristic practices he re-instituted, such as weekly communion and fasting on Wednesday and Friday, coupled with the decline of the Arminian Remonstrant Church in the Netherlands into such extreme post-Modernism as to be borderline post-Christian, is an extreme tragedy, since John Wesley, largely thanks to influence from Arminius and the Moravians, actually managed to restore something like the faith and practice of the Early Church in the 18th century Church of England.

Ironically, I feel that next to isolated High Church Methodist parishes, a few of which are in the UMC but most of which these days are independent, for instance, the Epworth Chapel on the Green in Boise, Idaho, and a project to set up an Anglican-Wesleyan church by some Nazarenes in Indiana, it is the High Church Anglicans who most closely approximate what Wesley was doing, in terms of their retention of the Book of Common Prayer, and their emphasis on weekly reception of the Eucharist.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,685
18,560
Orlando, Florida
✟1,262,974.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Politics
US-Democrat
Yes, asserting Arminius - Unitarian Universalism would indeed be utterly ridiculous, if I had actually said as much, which I did not. If you reread my post, it should be evident I am lamenting the present condition of the Remonstrant Church that Arminius founded, which if I lived in the Netherlands in the 1700s I probably would have joined, by the way, but my point is that its few surviving parishes (it has about 30,000 remaining members in half a dozen or so congregations in the Netherlands and one in Germany), have unfortunately, tragically, moved away from the very admirable doctrine of Arminius and the early Remonstrants and instead embraced an extreme post-Modernist theology, which is so extreme that church members are encouraged to write their own creeds, making belief in the Trinity effectively optional and causing the present day Remonstrant Church to be extremely close to the Unitarian Universalists or the contemporary English Universalists, in that the Remonstrants have become nearly post-Christian.

Unitarianism was actually a separate stream of religion during the Reformation, and came out of the Italian Reformation and spread north and eastward (Poland and Romania, where it still survives in rural villages), then to England and the US. Early unitarians did not necessarily deny the divinity of Christ (as Jefferson did), but they tended to be monarchial modalists.

Unitarians actually did have free will as a central doctrine, and they rejected Calvinism because of it, which was one of many doctrines that put them at odds with the Reformed.

Modern day Remonstrants in the Netherlands are much like the historic state Protestant church, relatively theologically liberal. This is the case in most European state churches, which are latitudinarian and encompass a variety of theological perspectives, and in some cases even confessions (such as the historic Protestant churches in the Netherlands, Germany, and France).
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: OldAbramBrown
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,197
5,712
49
The Wild West
✟477,172.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Unitarianism was actually a separate stream of religion during the Reformation, and came out of the Italian Reformation and spread north and eastward (Poland and Romania, where it still survives in rural villages), then to England and the US. Early unitarians did not necessarily deny the divinity of Christ (as Jefferson did), but they tended to be monarchial modalists.

Unitarians actually did have free will as a central doctrine, and they rejected Calvinism because of it, which was one of many doctrines that put them at odds with the Reformed.

Modern day Remonstrants in the Netherlands are much like the historic state Protestant church, relatively theologically liberal. This is the case in most European state churches, which are latitudinarian and encompass a variety of theological perspectives, and in some cases even confessions (such as the historic Protestant churches in the Netherlands, Germany, and France).

Indeed, having been a Congretionalist I am rather intimately familiar with the history of Soccinianism, Unitarianism and the UUA and I lament the Unitarian appropriation of so many of the original churches in America. At a certain point, when these churches stopped being even nominally Christian, I feel their ownership should have reverted to what is now the UCC or preferably the CCCC, since my opinion is that Congregational polity does not grant the right to depart from the Nicene Creed or Christianity just because the congregation votes for it.

The Remonstrants in the Netherlands and Germany are as far as I can tell much worse than the State Church, which is at least theoretically Nicene by virtue of its relations with other European churches, although I am no fan of the Protestant Church in the Netherlands and like several other state churches, I feel that governmental interference has contributed to its decline. Although conversely I am not a disestablishmentarian.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: OldAbramBrown
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,197
5,712
49
The Wild West
✟477,172.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I get the impression Calvinists and Arminians shared the same disdain for Holy Spirit activity (indeed Arminius was a Calvinist)? Wesley rectified that apparently.

I think that depends on what you mean by “Holy Spirit Activity.” It is certainly not the case that the early Methodists engaged in glossolalia or other distinctive practices of the Charismatic movement and the Pentecostal churches.
 
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
One must positively accept the grace of the Holy Spirit to receive salvific faith in Christ and begin the process of Theosis, or deification
Okay, a couple of questions before I reply to the rest of post. How does a sinner positively accept the Grace of the Holy Spirit to receive salvific Faith? Why is Grace needed? What's our condition before God before we receive Grace? Finally, can you define, "Entire Sanctification"? If you need to write in multiple posts that's fine with this. I know how limited space can be difficult.​

Thanks.
 
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I believe God saves us through the virtues that He, alone, can grant. That's how grace works, not as some sort of carte blanc reprieve from the penalty of sin, but as the cure for the sin that separates us from Him.
What about the propitiation by his Blood?
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,948
3,544
✟324,195.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
What about the propitiation by his Blood?
Jesus died as a vicarious atonement for our sins. But He came to accomplish more than the forgiveness and remission of sin, but also about the power now, by the Spirit to overcome that sin, the sin separates us from Him and condemns us to death. Jesus' death reconciles us with God, the Source of all true righteousness for man, so that we can 'go, and sin no more' (John 8:11), no longer slaves to sin but slaves to righteousness now (Rom 6). Christianity is first and foremost about man entering communion with God, as is the right and just order of things for us. It begins, from our perspective, with faith.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Jesus died as a vicarious atonement for our sins. But He came to accomplish more than the forgiveness and remission of sin, but also about the power now, by the Spirit to overcome that sin, the sin separates us from Him and condemns us to death. Jesus' death reconciles us with God, the Source of all true righteousness for man, so that we can 'go, and sin no more' (John 8:11), no longer slaves to sin but slaves to righteousness now (Rom 6). Christianity is first and foremost about man entering communion with God, as is the right and just order of things for us. It begins, from our perspective, with faith.
Yes, Jesus died as a vicarious atonement, but also as a penal substitute who takes our place, pierced for our transgressions, our condemnation, death, punishment and curse is placed upon his head for us. And his righteousness and life are given to us, to reconcile us to God by his Obedience and received through Faith which brings peace with God, because the ungodly are justified in Christ through Faith Alone apart form works. Once the relationship is restored and we are his sons and daughters, we can now walk in the Spirit and live to God.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.​
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,948
3,544
✟324,195.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Yes, Jesus died as a vicarious atonement, but also as a penal substitute who takes our place, pierced for our transgressions, our condemnation, death, punishment and curse is placed upon his head for us. And his righteousness and life are given to us, to reconcile us to God by his Obedience and received through Faith which brings peace with God, because the ungodly are justified in Christ through Faith Alone apart form works. Once the relationship is restored and we are his sons and daughters, we can now walk in the Spirit and live to God.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.​
Yes, and that righteousness must be understood as not only declared, but as given:
"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

A new righteousness apart from the law as Rom 3:21 puts it, and Phil 3:19 teaches:
"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith."

So that we may now walk in the Spirit, to the extent that we remain in and with Him:
"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God."
Rom 8:3-4,. 12-14

The obligation to be righteous and obedient in thought, word, and deed does not go away with the new covenant but is actually made possible, finally, with that covenant as we turn to God in faith.
 
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Yes, and that righteousness must be understood as not only declared, but as given:
"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

A new righteousness apart from the law as Rom 3:21 puts it, and Phil 3:19 teaches:
"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith."

So that we may now walk in the Spirit, to the extent that we remain in and with Him:
"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God."
Rom 8:3-4,. 12-14
Agreed!
The obligation to be righteous and obedient in thought, word, and deed does not go away with the new covenant but is actually made possible, finally, with that covenant as we turn to God in faith.
Understanding too, that not only is Justification Freely Given in the Promise of the Gospel, but Sanctification is also Freely Given as well. We must not forget this, because it is the Last Adam born under the Law in the flesh, came not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it, he also condemned sin in his flesh. Christ has fulfilled the broken Covenant of Works that the first Adam breached. The New Covenant or the Covenant of Grace is that God has done in Christ to redeem his people form their sins, condemnation, death and the curse.

Christ's righteousness is the free gift of the Gospel imputed/credited to the ungodly through Faith Alone apart from works. [Rom. 5:17 ...much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

John 17:19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

1 Cor. 1:30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”​

Christ provides everything for us, for his people, through a Promise.

From this we can lead a life of obedience to God, though our works are not perfect but tainted with sin still, but pleasing to God because of Christ. These works are not the cause of our Justification but the effects of it. Like fruits on a tree.​
 
Upvote 0

OldAbramBrown

Well-Known Member
Jul 4, 2023
807
140
69
England
✟22,720.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
I ... churches.
I think “Holy Spirit Activity” is not mainly "glossolalia or other distinctive practices of the Charismatic movement and the Pentecostal churches".
I think it is mainly stuff like words of wisdom as one studies the Bible and prays. And in family life honouring the intuitions of young people as they grow up in prayer and faith and not insinuating that they're not worthy enough to know what belief is yet.
"Arminian" is a swear word among calvinists too frightened to depart from legalism out of dutifulness, for all that Arminius may have been wrong (and like Calvin and Aquinas he was a politician).
I accept that the new apostolics' using "strangely warmed" (their sole nod to Wesley) as a buzz word gets them nowhere genuine.
But Wesley (who wasn't a politician) certainly thought those who heard the gospel message - which may have been bigger then than nowadays - were capable of bringing all their faculties to bear, in Holy Spirit strength, once they had started to believe, by attending shared learning groups.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I think “Holy Spirit Activity” is not mainly "glossolalia or other distinctive practices of the Charismatic movement and the Pentecostal churches".
I think it is mainly stuff like words of wisdom as one studies the Bible and prays. And in family life honouring the intuitions of young people as they grow up in prayer and faith and not insinuating that they're not worthy enough to know what belief is yet.
"Arminian" is a swear word among calvinists too frightened to depart from legalism out of dutifulness, for all that Arminius may have been wrong (and like Calvin and Aquinas he was a politician).
I accept that the new apostolics' using "strangely warmed" (their sole nod to Wesley) as a buzz word gets them nowhere genuine.
But Wesley (who wasn't a politician) certainly thought those who heard the gospel message - which may have been bigger then than nowadays - were capable of bringing all their faculties to bear, in Holy Spirit strength, once they had started to believe, by attending shared learning groups.
Arminianism and Calvinism do share some common ground, like Total Depravity. Arminius himself stated without regeneration of the Spirit, man in his lapse and sinful state, would not possess the faculties to seek, understand and believe.

What divides us is that the application of God's Grace, is it effectual or not. For the Calvinist it is effectual in saving sinners, whereas for the Arminian it is not. So it begs the question, if is not effectual, then what is the effectual cause of Redemption for Arminianism?
 
Upvote 0