Focused thread, SDA: Feast, New Moon, Sabbath and OT parallels

[tall73]

What is more in Rom 14 Paul defends all of the OT Lev 23 annual feasts saying one man observes one of them above the others while another observes them all and that neither is to be condemned.

You try to limit it to feast days, but the text is quite broad. There is no limit in the text to just "annual" events.

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.

Paul's balancing statement on that is in Gal 4 where he condemns even one observance of a pagan holy day.

A fascinating text, and I think there is more to it. But that is getting far afield in a response that is already far afield.

Do you plan on addressing the actual focused topic of this thread, the OT parallel passages?

And has no animal sacrifice

Sabbath is introduced in Gen 2:1-3 and we are reminded of that in Ex 20:11.

Sabbath is introduced in Exodus 16 as a commandment, in the context of the manna, and specifically included in the ten in Exodus 20, and called a sign with Israel in Exodus 31.

In all cases it appeals to God's authority as Creator and Redeemer, such as in Deut. 5.

There is no commandment at all in Genesis about the Sabbath. God does rest. And Moses in relating that indicates this is the basis for the sanctification and blessing of the day.

We are reminded of God resting in Exodus 20. And Genesis, being largely written by Moses, and on narrative with Exodus was likely written after the giving of the command by the voice of God at Sinai. God told Moses to write down the things that were said, and it was all later put in one narrative.

Even your RCC sources point to the Sabbath as coming from Eden and not from Ex 16.

Even you agreed I don't favor the Catholic view. And you nor the Catholics have pointed to any commandment in Eden, or prior to Ex. 16.

God did rest at creation from His works.

Your inference noted - but not sustained in the text.

The text only informs us that the manna-system had not been in place before - it does not tell us that they did not keep the Sabbath from Egypt to Sinai given that their "observance" in Ex 16 was to rest and they had rested after the Exodus waiting to cross the Red Sea.

He didn't introduce just the idea of the manna, but of the day of rest.

22 And so it was, on the sixth day, that they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. And all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. 23 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.’

But of course, as long as we are talking about inferences, there is no mention of any Sabbath command prior to Exodus 16.

Isaiah 66:23 says that for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" -- so much for "Sabbath ended at the cross" ideas.

I did not say the Sabbath ended at the cross.

I noted James and all the believers in Jerusalem continued to keep it. They would be keeping it at the destruction of Jerusalem, etc.

But it does say not to judge.

And you keep eliminating the New Moon from that text Bob.

Is 56:6-8 specifically singles out gentiles for Sabbath keeping

Gentiles who joined themselves to the covenant.

6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
“Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.”

Why Bob? Because the gentiles were not keeping it already, it was a sign with Israel. Those joining themselves to the covenant would be included in Israel.

Act 13 - it is specifically gentiles that ask to have more gospel preaching scheduled for "the NEXT Sabbath" rather than "tomorrow - week-day-1"

Yes, because both gentiles and Jews were meeting in the synagogues. Already noted above.

Jesus says it Mark 2:27 referencing them making of the Sabbath and the making of mankind which is Gen 2:1-3

The text shows that He, the Son of Man, is the Lord of the sabbath, and does indeed affirm that it was for man--a blessing, not man for the Sabbath, as though to serve it. They had made man to serve it as a burden, rather than what was intended.

However, I would say the choice of the word man may be more informed by the parallel with Son of Man to express His being the true judge of lawful Sabbath observance since it will be Him reigning over all the nations and judging them, and they are thinking to judge him.

Jesus did not in that passage say that the Sabbath was given as a command at creation. He did say it was given to man

The specifics of which men it was given to have already been pointed out a number of times, as it was a sign with Israel:

Exodus 31:12 Then the Lord said to Moses, 13 “Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

And in Ezekiel 20:
10 “Therefore I made them go out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. 11 And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them.’ 12 Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them. 13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them. 14 But I acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned before the Gentiles, in whose sight I had brought them out.

The sabbath was multiple times said to be given to Israel, and it was in conflict with leaders in Israel that He noted that His authority trumped theirs, as He is Lord of the Sabbath.

and of course no text at all about "do not take God's name in vain" prior to Ex 20.

And your point?

My point is that it is not just an argument from silence in the same way. The Sabbath is spelled out to be with Israel as a sign. One of the rationales of that sign was their release from Egypt.

Deuteronomy 5:15 And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

 

[tall73]

no sacrifices in the Sabbath commandment Exodus 20:8-11,

Yet, there were sacrifices in Numbers 28, spelled out IN ADDITION to the daily ones, on the Sabbath.

The people asked God not to speak to them after the ten commandments because they were afraid. But it was still God who gave the commandments regarding the sacrifices for the Sabbath as well.

But now please explain how the New Moon as a shadow pointed to Jesus' sacrifice.

And explain why it is also listed in Isaiah 66

22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yet, there were sacrifices in Numbers 28, spelled out IN ADDITION to the daily ones, on the Sabbath.

Already addressed.

The Sabbath was established without sacrifices from Creation Genesis 2:1-3 and stands alone without sacrifices as also seen in the Sabbath commandment Exodus 20:8-11 and many other scriptures and in ALL New Testament scriptures. Sacrifices were made daily after the fall of man including the Sabbath because people sinned daily. Sin is the transgression of God’s law 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 the sacrifices were for transgressing God’s law and pointed to Jesus who became our Sacrificial Lamb. What is not a shadow and did not end at the Cross as it is what defines sin is breaking God’s law 1 John 3:4 and Paul quotes from the Ten Commandments Romans 7:7 which came in a unit of Ten that God placed together and we cannot add to them or subtract from Deut 4:2 so the weekly Sabbath is not a shadow of anything as it points us back to the Creator of the heavens and earth “Remember” God says, which we should not do the opposite, which is why we are in the situation in the first place listening to the “other voice” instead of God.

The people asked God not to speak to them after the ten commandments because they were afraid. But it was still God who gave the commandments regarding the sacrifices for the Sabbath as well.

They were afraid of God’s Glory and when He comes again, will we be able to stand in His Glory? The sacrifices are not part of the Ten Commandments but the Sabbath commandment is. Written by God, spoken by God kept inside the ark and the earthy temple was a replica of God’s heavenly Temple Hebrews 8:5 which lies the Ten Commandments Rev 11:19 unedited Deut 4:2 because man is not above God. They are kept under His mercy seat and how we will be judged. James 2:10-12 Jesus warns us not to break or teach others to break the least of the commandments quoting from this unit of Ten. Mat 5:19 because this is God’s eternal law.

But now please explain how the New Moon as a shadow pointed to Jesus' sacrifice.

These were the new moon festivals. New Moon is also how months were known in those days since they did not have a calendar system.

And explain why it is also listed in Isaiah 66

22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

New Moon simple means New Month and if Jesus has a special gathering every New Month and every Sabbath for the saints, sounds great to me. Some think that the months will be every 28 days so every New Month will also be on a Sabbath, but that is not in scripture just a theory.

What is does show is the Sabbath continues for worship in the New Heaven and New Earth instead of ending or being a shadow just like Jesus said the Sabbath would be kept long after the Cross, so not a shadow of anything, just the blessing He promises for His people. How can spending time with God on the day He set aside to do so that is holy, sanctified and blessed be anything other than a blessing He promises Isaiah 58:13-14 and what could possibly be more important than this, so its a bit strange why so many professed Christians do not accept this blessing and spend their time doing worldly things instead of doing what God asks. Our time on this earth is short, Jesus is calling us back to True worship John 4:23-24 and defines false worship keeping our rules over obeying the commandments of God quoting right from this unit of Ten. Matthew 15:3-9

 

[tall73]

Already addressed.

The Sabbath stands alone without sacrifices as seen from Creation Genesis 2:1-3

The resting of God in Genesis does not spell out any command. And when it is spelled out it is said to be a sign and covenant with Israel.

What is not a shadow and did not end at the Cross is what defines sin, which is still breaking God’s law 1 John 3:4 and Paul quotes from the Ten Commandments Romans 7:7 that came in a unit of Ten that God placed together and we cannot add to them or subtract from

There seems to be a disconnect for you. You acknowledge that Paul quotes from other parts of the law than just the ten, such as quoting from Deuteronomy when he says to not take vengeance because vengeance is mine saith the Lord. Or when he discusses how in the law a woman is released from marriage when her husband dies. Or when he quotes love they neighbor as thyself, etc. But then you bring everything back to only the ten.

The whole law pointed out sin.

1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is [c]contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

Deut 4:2 so the weekly Sabbath is not a shadow of anything

It is included in the listing, and is a shadow, as the parallel OT texts illustrate. I note you don't actually address those, though they are the topic of the thread. I have addressed your various favorite Sabbath texts, but you refuse to address the actual thread topic.Why is that?

James 2:10-12 Jesus warns us not to break or teach others to break the least of the commandments quoting from this unit of Ten. Mat 5:19 because this is God’s eternal law.

Again the disconnect. James does not just quote ffrom the ten. He begins by referencing the law regarding partiality:

2:1 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. 2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes, 3 and you [c]pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, “You sit here in a good place,” and say to the poor man, “You stand there,” or, “Sit here at my footstool,” 4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?

Alluding to Leviticus 19:

2:15 ‘You shall do no injustice in judgment. You shall not be partial to the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty. In righteousness you shall judge your neighbor.

James spells it out more directly, and also refers to the command about loving your neighbor:

2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you how partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

He then goes on to speak of other commandments from the ten. The point was that the whole law pointed out sin.

New Moon simple means New Month and if Jesus has a special gathering every New Month and every Sabbath for the saints, sounds great to me.

Why do you say "if"?

And why do you say that this text shows the Sabbath enduring, but you don't say the same about the new moon?

What is does show is the Sabbath continues for worship in the New Heaven and New Earth instead of ending or being a shadow

But if the new moon will be observed per Isaiah, and it IS a shadow, per Colossians, then how do you reach that conclusion?

And can you please explain how the new moon is a shadow?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The resting of God in Genesis does not spell out any command. And when it is spelled out it is said to be a sign and covenant with Israel.

God hallowed the Sabbath day at Creation Exodus 20:11 and the seventh day is the Sabbath Exodus 20:10 nothing about signs with Israel. The Sabbath is made for mankind Mark 2:27 and man was created on the sixth day Gen 1:26 before the first Sabbath celebrated in the presence of God. Sin separated man from God so instead of worshipping Him in His presence we worship Him through His Spirit and the Sabbath is a memorial to everything God created for us without us and shows we worship the one True God. Once sin and sinners are no more the saints will once again worship Him in His presence. I can’t help but wonder those oppose spending time with God on His holy Sabbath day, would they be happy in heaven where Sabbath worship continues forever. God loves us so much, He would not force someone to do something they didn’t want to thats why the saints obey through faith and love. Rev 14:12, Romans 3:31 1 John 5:3

There seems to be a disconnect for you.

Likewise which is why many of the scriptures I post never seem to be addressed.

You acknowledge that Paul quotes from other parts of the law than just the ten, such as quoting from Deuteronomy when he says to not take vengeance because vengeance is mine saith the Lord. Or when he discusses how in the law a woman is released from marriage when her husband dies. Or when he quotes love they neighbor as thyself, etc. But then you bring everything back to only the ten.

Context determines which law is being referred to and Jesus is quoting from the Ten Commandments telling us not to break or to teach others to break these commandments Matthew 5:19-30 we should consider the warning. The Ten Commandments came in a unit of Ten, they are all equally as important, we break one of these we break them all.

The whole law pointed out sin.

Paul points to the Ten Commandments Romans 7:7

1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is [c]contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

Agreed

It is included in the listing, and is a shadow, as the parallel OT texts illustrate. I note you don't actually address those, though they are the topic of the thread. I have addressed your various favorite Sabbath texts, but you refuse to address the actual thread topic.Why is that?

Because they are out of context not referring to the Sabbath commandment as Col 2:14 KJV illustrates and how context from what Jesus’s teaches is different than your teachings. The Sabbath is blessed by God, man cannot reverse something blessed by God, Num 23:20 so you need a thus saith the Lord to make one of God’s finger written commandments to no longer be in effect. We have safeguards in scripture to protect us, like no adding or subtracting to His commandments Deut 4:2 and those teaching away from God’s Word we are warned about Isaiah 8:20

Again the disconnect. James does not just quote ffrom the ten. He begins by referencing the law regarding partiality:

2:1 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. 2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes, 3 and you [c]pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, “You sit here in a good place,” and say to the poor man, “You stand there,” or, “Sit here at my footstool,” 4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?

James contrasts one of the Ten Commandments with breaking another one of the Ten Commandments and is not contrasting one of the Ten Commandments with another law. Context matters.


James 2:10For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

James spells it out more directly, and also refers to the command about loving your neighbor:

2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;

The Royal Law is the Greatest commandments which are the Ten Commandments summarized- love to God, love to mankind. The law of Liberty is the Ten Commandments and what we will be judged by and what James is contrasting by saying you break one from the Ten you break them all.

Why do you say "if"?

And why do you say that this text shows the Sabbath enduring, but you don't say the same about the new moon?

So I could have used a better word, the saints will have a special worship gathering from month to month and from one Sabbath to another, which is not the definition of shadow, so you seem to be in disagreement with a thus saith the Lord. Isaiah 66:22-23

But if the new moon will be observed per Isaiah, and it IS a shadow, per Colossians, then how do you reach that conclusion?

And can you please explain how the new moon is a shadow?

This is why I am probably going to bow out of this conversation because I answer the same questions and for some reason you think they go unanswered. There are no sacrifices in Heaven, this is not referring to the new moon festivals it is how the Jews keep track of months. New Moon simply means New Month. So from one New Month to another and from one Sabbath to another all flesh (the saints) will worship before the Lord, which means the Sabbath will be kept for eternity. Amen.

 

[Soyeong]

Moreover, it is important to note how Paul uses the same division of “festivals” (annual holy days), “new moons” (monthly holy days), and “Sabbaths” (the weekly holy days) that the Old Testament uses in 1 Chronicles 23:31; 2 Chronicles 2:4, 8:12-13, 31:3; and elsewhere, when referencing Jewish holy days. Clearly, along with the yearly and monthly holy days—which no Christian today claims is binding upon believers in Christ—the Sabbath is included in what Paul calls a mere shadow.

I am a Christian and I claim that God's holy days are binding upon believers in Christ. Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, including keeping God's holy days, and we are told that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6).

Paul did not use the word "mere", but rather by saying that God's holy days are foreshadows of what is to come, he was emphasizing their importance of continuing to live in a way that testifies about the truth of what is to come in accordance with following Christ's example of obedience to God's law. For example, in 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover Lamb, however, instead of concluding that we no longer need to observe Passover, he concluded therefore we should continue to observe Passover. The only way that we should no longer observe God's holy days is if what they teach us about who Christ is and about what is to come is no longer true.

With the above in mind, do you think Paul had these texts in mind when speaking of a feast, a new moon and a sabbath? And do you think Paul's understanding included the weekly sabbath?

Yes, he was including the weekly Sabbath.

In regard to Colossians 2:16, it leaves room in itself for two possible interpretations:

(1) The Colossians were not observing God's holy days, they were being judged by Jews because they were not observing them, and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them for not observing them.

(2) The Colossians were observing God's holy days, they were being judge by pagans because they were keeping them, and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them and thereby prevent them from following Christ's example.

In Colossians 2:16-23, Paul described the people who were judging the Colossians as promoting human precepts and teachings, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, which means that they were being judged by people promoting paganism and that (2) is the case, which makes it ironic when people try to use Colossians 2:16 to prevent others from following Christ.

 

[tall73]

God hallowed the Sabbath day at Creation Exodus 20:11 and the seventh day is the Sabbath Exodus 20:10 nothing about signs with Israel. The Sabbath is made for mankind Mark 2:27 and man was created on the sixth day Gen 1:26 before the first Sabbath celebrated in the presence of God. Sin separated man from God so instead of worshipping Him in His presence we worship Him through His Spirit and the Sabbath is a memorial to everything God created for us without us and shows we worship the one True God. Once sin and sinners are no more the saints will once again worship Him in His presence. I can’t help but wonder those oppose spending time with God on His holy Sabbath day, would they be happy in heaven where Sabbath worship continues forever. God loves us so much, He would not force someone to do something they didn’t want to thats why the saints obey through faith and love. Rev 14:12, Romans 3:31 1 John 5:3

Likewise which is why many of the scriptures I post never seem to be addressed.

I have spent pages answering your points which were not on the actual topic. You can hardly say I was not addressing them.

Meanwhile, the thread is on the parallel OT texts and you have not even attempted to address that, but just changed the topic to whatever texts you want to post on the Sabbath.

The Ten Commandments came in a unit of Ten, they are all equally as important, we break one of these we break them all.

The ten commandments came in the context of a covenant with Israel, and is fitted to them. Hence it talks about remaining in the land the Lord gave them when giving the command to honor father and mother.

The principle of the law still applies per Paul, but the promise is recast with long life, rather than tied to the covenant people remaining in the land.

The Sabbath is a sign and a covenant with Israel, and we see them keeping it, even after the cross.

But Colossians still includes it in the list of shadows.

Because they are out of context not referring to the Sabbath commandment as Col 2:14 KJV illustrates and how context from what Jesus’s teaches is different than your teachings.

If you don't want to address the topic of the thread, feel free to go to a different thread. But the parallel texts are in fact part of the context of Col. 2:16. And your refusing to look at them doesn't help your case.

Col. 2:14 was already addressed at length.

The Sabbath is blessed by God, man cannot reverse something blessed by God,

And no one did "unbless" it. Hence Paul and those in Jerusalem still keeping it. But it is still a shadow, and the Colossians were not to let anyone judge them regarding it.

James contrasts one of the Ten Commandments with breaking another one of the Ten Commandments and is not contrasting one of the Ten Commandments with another law. Context matters.

Context matters in that he gave further illustration to what was already said when he called them lawbreakers for showing partiality, which was a law outside the ten.

The Royal Law is the Greatest commandments which are the Ten Commandments summarized- love to God, love to mankind.

You have it backwards. Jesus said all the law and the prophets hang on these commands, not just the ten.

Loving your neighbor also means not kidnapping, etc.

The law of Liberty is the Ten Commandments and what we will be judged by and what James is contrasting by saying you break one from the Ten you break them all.

He already indicated they would be judged by the law on partiality, which is not in the ten. He is indicating being judged by the whole law.

This is why I am probably going to bow out of this conversation because I answer the same questions and for some reason you think they go unanswered. There are no sacrifices in Heaven, this is not referring to the new moon festivals it is how the Jews keep track of months. New Moon simply means New Month. So from one New Month to another and from one Sabbath to another all flesh (the saints) will worship before the Lord, which means the Sabbath will be kept for eternity. Amen

Well the question went unanswered alright. So i will try again.

Colossians 2:16 includes the new moon as a shadow.

So how is it a shadow? You say the Sabbath cannot be a shadow because it does not point to the death of Christ. But how does the new moon?

 

[BobRyan]

You try to limit it to feast days,

Paul did that with his qualifier of "Shadows that point to Christ's work on Earth" -

I simply point to the LACK of crucifixion symbols and types in the Gen 2:1-3, Ex 20:8-11 weekly Sabbath and the fact that it is one of the TEN applicable to all mankind since Eden.

but the text is quite broad. There is no limit in the text to just "annual" events.

until you notice its focus on the "Shadow" types. Ceremonies based in animal sacrifice at the very inception of those days in Lev 23

Col 2: 17 things which are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
1 Cor 5:7 . For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed

By contrast for the weekly Sabbath we have
Gen 2:1-3 no sacrifices at all for the inception of the 7th day Sabbath as a sanctified set-apart holy day
Ex 16 - no sacrifice at all for the reminder of the Sabbath "tomorrow is the Sabbath"
Ex 20:8-10 - no sacrifice at all for the memorial weekly Sabbath "remember the Sabbath to keep it holy... the 7th day is the Sabbath"
Ex 20:11 - direct explicit basis of Sabbath stated to be the Gen 2:1-3 event alone

none of that given in "animal sacrifice form".

Same is true of child birth - no sacrifices mentioned connected to child birth

- UNTIL you get to Exodus and Leviticus.
Ex 13: 13 But every firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb; ...And all the firstborn of man among your sons you shall redeem.
Luke 2:
21 And when eight days were completed for the circumcision of the Child, His name was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.
22 Now when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord 23 (as it is written in the law of the Lord, “Every male who opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord”),
24 and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, “A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons.”

As we all know -- Child birth does not "end at the cross"

the weekly Sabbath does not "end at the cross" , rather it continues for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth - for "all mankind" Is 66:23

 

[tall73]

Paul did that with his qualifier of "Shadows that point to Christ's work on Earth" -

I simply point to the LACK of crucifixion symbols and types in the Gen 2:1-3, Ex 20:8-11 weekly Sabbath and the fact that it is one of the TEN applicable to all mankind since Eden.

until you notice its focus on the "Shadow" types.

Explain the "shadow" type of the new moon, please.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Explain the "shadow" type of the new moon, please.

Numbers 28:11 At the beginnings of your months, you shall offer a burnt offering to the Lord: two bulls from the herd, one ram, seven male lambs a year old without blemish;. This is a shadow, as all offerings and sacrifices pointed to Jesus. There is no sacrifices and offerings in heaven. The New Moon in heaven simple means New Month. From one New Month to another and from one Sabbath to another all saints will gather before the Lord for worship (it does not say offerings). Isaiah 66:22-23 It's hard to make an argument the weekly Sabbath is a shadow of anything when Jesus in His own words says otherwise. Isaiah 66:22-23, Matthew 24:20, John 14:15, Luke 4:6 1 John 2:6, Matthew 5:19-30. Matthew 15:3-9 Matthew 19:17-19. The weekly Sabbath is one of the Ten Commandants personally written and spoke by God and stand on a whole other foundation than all other laws, statue and ordinances.

 

[tall73]

Yes, he was including the weekly Sabbath.

Thank you for addressing the topic of the thread.

In regard to Colossians 2:16, it leaves room in itself for two possible interpretations:

(1) The Colossians were not observing God's holy days, they were being judged by Jews because they were not observing them, and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them for not observing them.

(2) The Colossians were observing God's holy days, they were being judge by pagans because they were keeping them, and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them and thereby prevent them from following Christ's example.

In Colossians 2:16-23, Paul described the people who were judging the Colossians as promoting human precepts and teachings, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, which means that they were being judged by people promoting paganism and that (2) is the case, which makes it ironic when people try to use Colossians 2:16 to prevent others from following Christ.

I hope to comment more later.

In the meantime folks can ponder your perspective, and likewise speak to the topic.

 

[tall73]

Paul did not use the word "mere", but rather by saying that God's holy days are foreshadows of what is to come, he was emphasizing their importance of continuing to live in a way that testifies about the truth of what is to come in accordance with following Christ's example of obedience to God's law.

Yes, this raises the question of whether something being a shadow means it is not kept. In the case of the believers in Jerusalem they were zealous for the whole law. We see Paul taking an oath, hurrying back for the feast, etc.

So while these are called shadows of things coming it did not mean that they all quit keeping them.

For example, in 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover Lamb, however, instead of concluding that we no longer need to observe Passover, he concluded therefore we should continue to observe Passover. The only way that we should no longer observe God's holy days is if what they teach us about who Christ is and about what is to come is no longer true.

I think some would apply that more spiritually regarding removing wickedness from the camp, parallel to the leaven. But just to make it clear the text that is perhaps more straight-forward is Acts 18:20. I am sure you know it, But I will post it for those who are not familiar to further the conversation.

Acts 18:20 When they asked him to stay a longer time with them, he did not consent, 21 but took leave of them, saying, “I must by all means keep this coming feast in Jerusalem; but I will return again to you, God willing.” And he sailed from Ephesus.

Yes, he was including the weekly Sabbath.

So to clarify, you would see this text as reflecting a similar listing of all the "appointed times" as the OT parallels?

I would like to get into the various aspects of the context of Colossians 2, and the possibilities you gave, but let's see what folks make of this so far.

I think the advantage of this view is that it does treat all the items in the list the same way. When Bob or Sabbathblessings post from Isaiah highlighting the continuation of the Sabbath, but not so much focusing on the continuation of the new moon unless pressed it points out their different handling. And it doesn't match up with what Paul says about his own practice, or that of the believers in Acts 21.

Moreover, they insist that the weekly sabbath cannot be included, despite what to me seem clear parallels to the OT texts which did include the Sabbath, because they say it doesn't point to Jesus' sacrifice. But they think the new moon is a shadow, but will not explain how it points to the sacrifice.

By the way, do you see the Sabbath as commanded at creation, or to Israel but now binding on all, as apparently you also see the feasts.

Or do you see the feasts as originating prior to Israel? (I have heard that view, but rarely).

 

[tall73]

For example, in 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover Lamb, however, instead of concluding that we no longer need to observe Passover, he concluded therefore we should continue to observe Passover.

An additional note on this point: While it is not Scripture, there is an historical account many years later of the practice of sweeping out the leaven among Christian believers, as well as observing on Nisan 14 in Church History Book V of Eusebius, chapter 24, for those interested in some extra reading, Perhaps @The Liturgist and others are already familiar with it given it being part of the Quartodeciman controversies. This was among gentile believers in Asia, which might distinguish such examples from the Nazarenes, etc. who were Jewish believers.

CHURCH FATHERS: Church History, Book V (Eusebius)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

​

 

[Soyeong]

Yes, this raises the question of whether something being a shadow means it is not kept. In the case of the believers in Jerusalem they were zealous for the whole law. We see Paul taking an oath, hurrying back for the feast, etc.

So while these are called shadows of things coming it did not mean that they all quit keeping them.

In Acts 21:20, they were rejoicing that tense of thousands of Jews were becoming zealous for the Torah, which was in accordance with believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Titus 2:14), so rather that quitting them, they were becoming zealous for them in accordance with believing the Gospel.

I think some would apply that more spiritually regarding removing wickedness from the camp, parallel to the leaven. But just to make it clear the text that is perhaps more straight-forward is Acts 18:20. I am sure you know it, But I will post it for those who are not familiar to further the conversation.

Acts 18:20 When they asked him to stay a longer time with them, he did not consent, 21 but took leave of them, saying, “I must by all means keep this coming feast in Jerusalem; but I will return again to you, God willing.” And he sailed from Ephesus.

The purpose of the physical commands is to teach us about a spiritual reality that is God's nature, so if we correctly understand the spiritual reality, then we will live in a way that testifies about it by following the physical commands that are examples of that reality. There is no value to learning a spiritual truth that has not impact on the way that we live. That is also a good verse, but I don't think it is found in every translation.

So to clarify, you would see this text as reflecting a similar listing of all the "appointed times" as the OT parallels?

Indeed.

I would like to get into the various aspects of the context of Colossians 2, and the possibilities you gave, but let's see what folks make of this so far.

I think the advantage of this view is that it does treat all the items in the list the same way. When Bob or Sabbathblessings post from Isaiah highlighting the continuation of the Sabbath, but not so much focusing on the continuation of the new moon unless pressed it points out their different handling. And it doesn't match up with what Paul says about his own practice, or that of the believers in Acts 21.

Moreover, they insist that the weekly sabbath cannot be included, despite what to me seem clear parallels to the OT texts which did include the Sabbath, because they say it doesn't point to Jesus' sacrifice. But they think the new moon is a shadow, but will not explain how it points to the sacrifice.

All of Scripture was given to teach us how to know Christ through living in a way that testifies about the nature of who he is, and as Christians we should live in a way that does that through following his example of obedience to the Torah. Likewise, the feasts are remembrances of what God has done and will do and we should live in a way that testifies about what God has done.

By the way, do you see the Sabbath as commanded at creation, or to Israel but now binding on all, as apparently you also see the feasts.

Or do you see the feasts as originating prior to Israel? (I have heard that view, but rarely).

To say that God is holy means that God practices holiness, so to say that God's holiness is eternal means that there exists an eternal way to practice holiness, which existed before God gave any instructions for how to do that, so all of God's holy days existed eternally prior to Israel. Keeping the Sabbath holy testifies that there is a Creator who created the world in six days, who rested on the 7th dat, who sanctifies His people, and who saves His people out of bondage, so the way to believe in the truth of these things is by living in a way that testifies about it by keeping the Sabbath holy. Furthermore, the way to practice God's holiness did not change after He did those things, but rather He was acting in accordance with what has always been part of His eternal holiness since the beginning. For example, it was an eternal truth that God saves His people out of bondage even before God created Adam and observing Passover testifies about this eternal truth while refusing to observe Passover would be bearing false witness against this eternal truth. I consider Genesis 2:3 to be a command, but what is holy to God should not be profaned by man, so we would still be obligated to keep the Sabbath holy even if God had never commanded anyone to do that. In Hebrews 4:9-11, we should seek to be like our Creator.

 

[BobRyan]

In all cases it appeals to God's authority as Creator and Redeemer, such as in Deut. 5.

There is no commandment at all in Genesis about the Sabbath. God does rest.

1. Scripture says God rested on the 7th day AND at that time set it apart, sanctified it - stated both in Gen 2:1-3, and in Ex 20:11
2. Your own catholic sources admit to the same thing regarding the origin of the Sabbath (not saying you are Catholic - just that your OP uses those Catholic sources and they affirm this very point).

And Moses in relating that indicates this is the basis for the sanctification and blessing of the day as we see in Ex 20:11 God speaks this direct connection into the commandment at Sinai

And of course "no commandment at all in Genesis about not taking God's name in vain"

No wonder almost all Christian denominations on planet earth affirm the TEN Commandments as included in the moral law of God since Eden applicable to all mankind.

We are reminded of God resting in Exodus 20. And Genesis, being largely written by Moses,

Ex 20 is God speaking the TEN - and He points the listener directly at Gen 2:1-3 for the origin of the Sabbath day - set aside and made holy, which fully obligates mankind by that fact alone according to Ex 20.

I did not say the Sabbath ended at the cross.
I noted James and all the believers in Jerusalem continued to keep it. They would be keeping it at the destruction of Jerusalem, etc.

And gentile Christians as well as we see in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 "Every Sabbath"
In fact Is 56:6-8 specifically singles out gentiles for Sabbath keeping
Just as Is 66:23 does for "all mankind"
Just as Jesus does for "all mankind" in Mark 2:27

But it does say not to judge.

As does Jesus in Matt 7.

The command "not to judge" before the cross - was not taken as meaning that the Ten Commandments were by that fact - deleted.

And you keep eliminating the New Moon from that text Bob.

I actually don't mind adding that note in as well since it points to TWO cycles for worship for all eternity after the cross. A weekly one and a monthly one so the Is 66:23 text cannot be munged into a just a single reference to "every day worship"

 

[BobRyan]

and of course no text at all about "do not take God's name in vain" prior to Ex 20.

And your point?

My point is that it is not just an argument from silence in the same way.

Indeed - sabbath is NOT silent in Gen 2:1-3 - rather it is explicitly stated as a holy day, set apart, and we are told in Ex 20:11 that the Gen 2:1-3 fact ALONE makes it binding on mankind -- in fact it says "THEN the Lord blessed and sanctified it" in Ex 20:11 rather than "and so NOW the Lord has blessed and sanctified it".

This is an irrefutable emphasis on the Gen 2 fact for Sabbath which you of course only of "silence" for - in the case of "do not take God's name in vain" . So in that respect you are correct , this is not at all the same.

The Sabbath is spelled out to be with Israel as a sign. One of the rationales of that sign was their release from Egypt.

The TEN In Ex 20:1-2 are prefaced with the fact that God released them from Egypt - is it your claim that only JEWS should not take God's name in vain???

Your logic is very inconsistent.

Deuteronomy 5:15 And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

Just as is the case for ALL TEN in Ex 20:1-2 prefaced by that very same fact.
- is it your claim that only JEWS should not take God's name in vain???

Your logic is very inconsistent.

 

[BobRyan]

Yet, there were sacrifices in Numbers 28, spelled out IN ADDITION to the daily ones, on the Sabbath.

Just as sacrifices for child birth were added in Exodus that was not there in Genesis.
That does not make child birth a shadow of Christ's death on the cross, nor cause it to end at the cross. As we saw previously.

But now please explain how the New Moon as a shadow pointed to Jesus' sacrifice.

The New Moon holy day in Lev is "given in animal sacrifice" as we see in Numbers 28. The only form of observance we have for it is based in animal sacrifice which we both agree points to the death of Christ. Numbers 28 lists the sacrifices for New Moon's and for Passover. (as well as other events)

Numbers 28:11, the New Moon offering is commanded : “On the first of every month, present to the Lord a burnt offering of two young bulls, one ram and seven male lambs a year old, all without defect.”

2 Chron 8:
12 Then Solomon offered burnt offerings to the Lord on the altar of the Lord which he had built in front of the porch; 13 and he did so according to the daily rule, offering them up according to the commandment of Moses, for the Sabbaths, the new moons, and the three annual feasts—the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks, and the Feast of Booths.

And explain why it is also listed in Isaiah 66

22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

1. First of all having two worship cycles that are applicable for all eternity after the cross - and apply to all mankind does NOT help your argument against the Sabbath continued for all eternity after the cross. Were we simply not supposed to notice?
2. Secondly the fact that there are TWO distinct worship cycles in that eternity after the cross in the New Earth and not one - means there is no way to munge the Sabbath observance cycle into "one cycle that is -- every day, or --daily". It leaves it as a completely legit 7th day worship event in the context that Isaiah and his readers would have known - which forever sinks your delete-the-Sabbath argument.
3. In the New Earth there are TWO creation events to remember, one in Gen 1-2 and the other in Rev 21 where we are reminded of the making of the "NEW Earth" - so it is not all that surprising that TWO memorials might exist as of that time and not just one. This would in no way "delete the Sabbath" -- so it is not helping your argument in any case ... so it is odd that you would go there.

 

[tall73]

tall73 said:

Explain the "shadow" type of the new moon, please.

Numbers 28:11 At the beginnings of your months, you shall offer a burnt offering to the Lord: two bulls from the herd, one ram, seven male lambs a year old without blemish;. This is a shadow, as all offerings and sacrifices pointed to Jesus

There is nothing explained about the new moon that makes it a shadow of the sacrifice. You only point to the fact that offerings were made on it.

The same thing is said about the Sabbath in the same chapter!

Numbers 28:9 ‘And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering— 10 this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering.


But you say one has to be a shadow on this basis, and the other not.

But the OT parallel texts (the actual subject of the thread) make clear both are listed, and both are called shadows.

And you just showed why your main argument against the Sabbath being a shadow doesn't make sense. The only thing that makes the new moon a shadow in your argument is prescribed sacrifices in Numbers 28, and the weekly sabbath also has prescribed sacrifices in Numbers 28.

 

[tall73]

I actually don't mind adding that note in as well since it points to TWO cycles for worship for all eternity after the cross. A weekly one and a monthly one so the Is 66:23 text cannot be munged into a just a single reference to "every day worship"

Since much of what you put in these responses is just going to be repeat from both of us I will address the parts that more directly relate to the topic of the thread first, and get to the rest when I get a chance.

Two cycles for worship, great. Do you have a service now on the New Moon then? The last time we discussed things it didn't sound like it. You use this text to support current Sabbath observance. Why don't you do that with the new moon as well?

 

[tall73]

The TEN In Ex 20:1-2 are prefaced with the fact that God released them from Egypt - is it your claim that only JEWS should not take God's name in vain???

Your logic is very inconsistent.

The Sabbath is said to be a sign in various ways, multiple times with the house of Israel. God made the covenant with Israel partly on the rationale of release from Egypt, and in that respect the specific spelling out of commands was in Israel's context, as I noted the example of the reference to the land of Israel in the command to honor father and mother.

But He did not call every commandment a sign, based on three rationales. Moreover, in Ezekiel he noted that He gave the sabbaths in addition to the commandments by which one lives.