Focused thread, SDA: Feast, New Moon, Sabbath and OT parallels

BobRyan

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Soyeong said:
In Colossians 2:16-23, Paul described the people who were judging the Colossians as promoting human precepts and teachings, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body
Before we fully go through things I realized there is an element of your view I am not that familiar with. I have talked with Bob for years, and Sabbathblessings a fair amount, so I have an idea of their views.
In Col 2 the immediate context is the topic of "making stuff up".


8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

============================

Question I have for you -

How do Christians in a gentile church such as we find in the case of the Collassians run into those sorts of pressures as listed in chapter 2?

Is it a case of 10 Christians meeting in a home church on week-day-1 where one of them is Jewish Christian and the Jewish Christian is wondering why he/she is not worshipping on Sabbath?

Or is it like one of the many Sabbath services we find in the NT - as in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 - where they have gospel preaching in a Synagogue "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 for both gentiles and Jews - and are exposed to these Col 2 sorts of pressures in that context so well documented in the NT?
 
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tall73

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Question I have for you -

I will be touching on the question when I go through the context.

However, you passed over the question asked of you (and the topic of the thread).

If we will keep the new moon in the new earth, why would you possibly object to doing so now?
 
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BobRyan

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Question I have for you -

How do Christians in a gentile church such as we find in the case of the Collassians run into those sorts of pressures as listed in chapter 2?

Is it a case of 10 Christians meeting in a home church on week-day-1 where one of them is Jewish Christian and the Jewish Christian is wondering why he/she is not worshipping on Sabbath?

Or is it like one of the many Sabbath services we find in the NT - as in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 - where they have gospel preaching in a Synagogue "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 for both gentiles and Jews - and are exposed to these Col 2 sorts of pressures in that context so well documented in the NT?
I will be touching on the question when I go through the context.

However, you passed over the question asked of you (and the topic of the thread).
Actually it gets to the heart of your OP - if you take your view of it - how in the world does the Col 2 topic even come up that you are discussing? That is the question for you.

If we take my view of it - (as I have stated repeatedly on this thread) - then it is incredibly easy to discuss how gentiles in Colossae get pressure listed in your OP for Col 2 -- from both Christian jews and non-Christian Jews each Sabbath as they attend worship services in the synagogues. (Just as we see them worshipping "every Sabbath" with those two groups in Acts 18:4 so not just in Acts 13 and Acts 17.

It is incredibly easy to see that the OP list is exactly the sort of non-7th-day-Sabbath topics that Christian Jews and non-Christian Jews would bring up to gentile Christians as they ALL attend "every Sabbath" worship services. They obviously are not going to argue that the gentiles are not observing the weekly Sabbath since it is IN those weekly Sabbath meetings that they are encountering and worshiping with gentile Christians. Rather they want to know about all the OTHER events "the shadow events" where they don't see the gentile Christians.
If we will keep the new moon in the new earth, why would you possibly object to doing so now?
I don't think I have posted any objection to anything listed in Lev 23 -- primarily because Rom 14 says such objections are not valid. Paul himself observed some of those "shadow" Sabbath (annual holy days). He had free will and could choose to do so... yet still he was preaching the Gospel to both gentiles and Jews "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4.

And gentiles ask for "more gospel preaching" to be scheduled for them "The NEXT Sabbath" Acts 13, rather than "tomorrow at your weekly week-day-1-is-the-new-Sabbath meeting)
 
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Soyeong

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Before we fully go through things I realized there is an element of your view I am not that familiar with. I have talked with Bob for years, and Sabbathblessings a fair amount, so I have an idea of their views.

Here you list various parts of the immediate context, which does indeed need to be figured into the interpretation, but you left out an element even closer in proximity, which was his discussion on circumcision.

Do you think all Christians should be physically circumcised?
Either there are correct or incorrect reasons for becoming circumcised and Paul only spoke against the incorrect reasons, or according to Galatians 5:2, Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised right after the Jerusalem Council and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US. In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the reason for why God commanded circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld God's law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason. The Jerusalem Council did not have the authority to countermand God, so they should not be interpreted as ruling against obeying what God has commanded, and there are correct reasons for why a Gentile should want to become circumcised that are in accordance with what God has commanded, such as if they wanted to eat of the Passover lamb (Exodus 12:48). In Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone is a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying what He has commanded, so if the Jerusalem Council had done that, then according to God we should consider them to be false prophets, though the reality is that is not what they were doing.

In Deuteronomy 10:12-16, God instructed His people to circumcise our hearts and obey His commandments. In Deuteronomy 30:1-10, it prophesies about a time when the Israelites will return from exile, God will circumcise their hearts, and we will return to obedience to the Torah. In Jeremiah 31:33 and Ezekiel 36:26-27, they are speaking in regard to the New Covenant, the Israelites returning from exile, God circumcising our hearts my means of the Spirit, and returning to obedience to the Torah by saying that God will put the Torah in our minds and write it on our hearts, and where God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us in obedience to His law. In Romana 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Torah, which is the same way to tell for a Jew, and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and to not obey the Torah. The New Covenant is all about Israel returning to obedience to the Torah and having a circumcised heart does not refer to anything other than living in obedience to it.

Colossians 2:11-14 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so when Colossians 2:11-14 speaks about those who are in Christ, it is only speaking about those who are walking in obedience to the Torah. Likewise, when it speaking about those who have circumcision made without hands, it is only speaking about those who have a circumcised heart who are living in obedience to the Torah. Putting off the the body of flesh refers to sinning in transgression of the Torah. Having been buried with I'm in baptism is in reference to Romans 6 and again refers to dying to living in sin while being raised with him in newness of life refers to living in obedience to the Torah. Forgiving our trespasses refers to forgiving our transgressions of the Torah. Cancelling our record of debt that stood against us refers to the list of sins that we have committed in transgression of the Torah that was nailed to Christ's cross so that he died in our place to pay the penalty for our sins. So every aspect of Colossians 2:11-14 is in support of keeping the Torah.
 
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BobRyan

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Two cycles for worship, great. Do you have a service now on the New Moon then? The last time we discussed things it didn't sound like it. You use this text to support current Sabbath observance. Why don't you do that with the new moon as well?
Does your acceptance/rejection of the Sabbath depend on you offering the animal sacrifices for New Moon found in Numbers 28?

We have "Sabbath made for mankind" in Eden Gen 2:1-3 and not mankind made for Sabbath statements Mark 2:27.

Do you have gentiles singled out for new moon observance in Is 56:6-8 or is it just gentiles singled out for the weekly Sabbath in that text?
Do you see gentiles asking for "more gospel preaching" on "the next new moon" In Acts 13 -- or do they just request it for "Next Sabbath" in that text?

Do you have "Every new moon" gospel preaching and evangelism for gentiles and Jews in Acts 18:4 or is it just "every Sabbath"?

I don't say any of this as a form of objection to having the New Moon observed in the New Earth for all eternity. Nor would I object to the Rom 14 case where someone chose to set that day apart as a day of worship.
 
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BobRyan

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I don't have an objection to it, which is why I said many, including gentiles, may be blessed by it.

But I object to judging regarding it

My posts here are not about "me judging" (nor do you quote anything in your OP about me "judging") -- My posts are about "me noting what the Bible says about God's Commandments and specifically the 4th commandment".

Is it your view that if we post what the Bible says on this topic - we are unlawfully judging others??

When you quote Ex 20:7 "do not take God's name in vain", is that your way of "judging others"???

on the basis of the texts. In the same way I don't object to the passover, and some gentile Christians still observed it
I don't object to gentiles observing passover either .. but I can still post the text in Heb 10:4-11 stating that "He takes away the first to establish the second" when it comes to "animal sacrifices and offerings" where that is the only liturgy that the Bible has for the observance of Passover..
 
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tall73

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I will now address the context of Colossians, starting with this portion from Bob:

============ A popular story--
But one popular 'story' in modern times is that Christians were not meeting on Sabbath, but were meeting in their own group on week-day-1 - as Christians... a primarily gentile church in the case of asian/greek cities mentioned above.​

We see from Acts that gentiles and Jews were often meeting in synagogues on Sabbath, where the Scriptures were read. Paul would begin his ministry in these locations, when available.

This allowed Paul to both reach out to Jewish attendees who would be familiar with Scripture, and to speak to God fearing gentiles who would also have some background already. When the gospel was rejected they would at times have to leave the synagogue and move to another venue:

For instance, in Corinth:

Acts 18:5 When Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ. 6 But when they opposed him and blasphemed, he shook his garments and said to them, “Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” 7 And he departed from there and entered the house of a certain man named Justus, one who worshiped God, whose house was next door to the synagogue. 8 Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.

In Ephesus:

Acts 19:8 And he went into the synagogue and spoke boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading concerning the things of the kingdom of God. 9 But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus. 10 And this continued for two years, so that all who dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

In the case of Philippi there was no synagogue so Paul went to a place of prayer on the Sabbath.

Acts 16:12 and from there to Philippi, which is the foremost city of that part of Macedonia, a colony. And we were staying in that city for some days. 13 And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there.

The bretheren are indicated as gathered at the house of Lydia:

16:40 So they went out of the prison and entered the house of Lydia; and when they had seen the brethren, they encouraged them and departed.

We see reference in Troas to meeting on the first day of the week. This may well have been using Jewish reckoning where the first day of the week begins at sundown on our Saturday. So they may have been meeting Saturday night. It is also mentioned that Paul is leaving the next day so he goes later than usual, dialoguing.

Some point out the "on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread" sounds like a liturgical formula, suggesting a regular practice. This may have been the case. We don't know from Acts whether there was a synagogue present. If so they may have met in the synagogue for hearing the word And they may have followed that with a time for distinctive Christian teaching on Saturday after Sabbath, the early part of the first day by Jewish reckoning. Some ancient churches still have Saturday evening services which may hearken back to such a practice.

This particular meeting was a session with the apostle to convey specifically Christian teaching and answer their questions prior to leaving, which makes it harder to tell if this is indicating a regular practice, or a one-time special meeting.

Acts 20:7 Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight.

In any case churches did not only meet during the regular synagogue meetings as there had to be some time for Christian teaching apart from the main synagogue service, though that need not be limited to the first day.

In the case of Corinth, where there was a synagogue, but they eventually had to leave, we see references to the church in Corinth coming together in one place.

1 Cointhians 11:18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you. 20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper. 21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.

and:

23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you. 26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Practice of Christian spiritual gifts, including toungues, prophecy, interpreting of prophecy, the Lord's supper, reciting teachings, etc. would be in a place where the church was all gathered, but not during the regular synagogue service. The synagogue service was a place where they could hear the Scriptures, reach out to to others for Christ, etc. So there was no reason to leave in those locales where they were not forced to by rejection.

We also know that some churches were meeting in houses, because letters mention it:

Romans 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, 4 who risked their own necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. 5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house.

Colossians 4:15 Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea, and Nymphas and the church that is in his house.

Philemon 1 Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, To Philemon our beloved friend and fellow laborer, 2 to the beloved Apphia, Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church in your house.

The churches meeting in homes become important to the thread topic. Philemon 1 tells us that a church met in the home of Philemon. The letter of Philemon appeals to Philemon to forgive, and release the slave Onesimus so that he may minister for the gospel.

And the epistle to the Colossians tells us that Onesimus, who was Philemon's slave, was one of the Colossians.

Colossians 4:7 Tychicus, a beloved brother, faithful minister, and fellow servant in the Lord, will tell you all the news about me. 8 I am sending him to you for this very purpose, that he may know your circumstances and comfort your hearts, 9 with Onesimus, a faithful and beloved brother, who is one of you. They will make known to you all things which are happening here.

Acchipus who is also a recipient of the letter of Philemon, along with the church, is also mentioned in Colossians:

16 Now when this epistle is read among you, see that it is read also in the church of the Laodiceans, and that you likewise read the epistle from Laodicea. 17 And say to Archippus, “Take heed to the ministry which you have received in the Lord, that you may fulfill it.”

Laodicea and Colossae were near, and had relations between one another. This text could mean that Archippus is ministering in Laodicea, or it could be a somewhat separate thought and he is in Colossae. We already saw that there was a house church meeting in Laodicea, but it was in the house of Nymphas. Philemon also has a church meeting in his home, and some think it was in Colossae.

Either way, house churches appear to be common in the area.

We don't see Colossae addressed in Paul's travels in Acts becuase at the time he writes the letter to the Coloassians he had never met them face to face. He has heard about the faith of the church in Colossae, and the related churches in Laodicea and Hierapolis

Colossians 1:5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth; 7 as you also learned from Epaphras, our dear fellow servant, who is a faithful minister of Christ on your behalf, 8 who also declared to us your love in the Spirit.

Colossians 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a bondservant of Christ, greets you, always laboring fervently for you in prayers, that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God. 13 For I bear him witness that he has a great zeal for you, and those who are in Laodicea, and those in Hierapolis.

Colossians 2:2 For I want you to know what a great conflict I have for you and those in Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh

So we don't have as much detail about the situation as we do some of the churches described in Acts. But we do know they had some home churches. It is unclear whether there were synagogues that they had departed from, etc.

So what is going on in Col 2:16-17 ? Do we have one or two Jewish Christians meeting on week-day-1 with a bunch of gentile Christians - and these Jewish Christians are upset that week-day-1 for them is not the 7th day of the week. Why are the Jewish Christians choosing to worship on week-day-1 instead of the Sabbath - then supposedly slamming gentile Christians for being in church then instead of Sabbath? Why wouldn't Jewish Christians continue to meet on the Sabbath hearing the gospel preached "every Sabbath" as we see for both gentiles and Jews in Acts 18:4 - were that popular story true?​

============ story ends

Whether they were meeting in the synagogue or only in homes they would need to have times of distinctly Christian worship and teaching, such as were described in Corinth, despite their being a synagogue in town.

Those judging the Colossian believers could be Jewish people in the town, but could also be Judaizers, who thought that gentiles had to be circumcised and keep the whole law, which we see referenced in a number of places.

Given the reference to home churches in the region it is not certain that they were meeting in synagogues. But it wouldn't make much difference to the reading if they were.

But as Col 2:17-22 point out the problem is not "judging in regard to scripture" but is primarily about "making stuff up".

16 Therefore, no one is to act as your judge in regard to food and drink, or in respect to a festival or a new moon, or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Take care that no one keeps defrauding you of your prize by delighting in humility and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding firmly to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.​
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of man? 23 These are matters which do have the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and humility and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.​

Paul lists a number of things that could cause the new church to be distracted from Christ:

Colossians 2:4 Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words. 5 For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ. 6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.

Human philosophy:

8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

Worship of angels

18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

Aestheticism

20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

But in the middle of that list he includes discussion of circumcision, feasts, new moons and sabbaths. They are in the same category of things that they need not be distracted by.

They were circumcised in Christ, not with hands:

Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses

Christ is the body and the feasts, new moons and sabbaths are the shadows.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.

So whether it is local Jewish critics, or Judaizers who traveled about, they didn't need to worry about the judgments of those groups. Jesus is what they need, and they should not be concerned about these distractions.

The Jewish believers in the diaspora would be likely to keep the feasts, etc. in any case, and Paul affirms in Acts 21 he was not turning Jewish believers in the diaspora from circumcision, etc.

The gentiles were not required to be circumcised and keep the whole law of Moses. They didn't have to be Jews to be Christians.
 
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tall73

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In regard to Colossians 2:16, it leaves room in itself for two possible interpretations:

(1) The Colossians were not observing God's holy days, they were being judged by Jews because they were not observing them, and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them for not observing them.

(2) The Colossians were observing God's holy days, they were being judge by pagans because they were keeping them, and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them and thereby prevent them from following Christ's example.

In Colossians 2:16-23, Paul described the people who were judging the Colossians as promoting human precepts and teachings, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, which means that they were being judged by people promoting paganism and that (2) is the case, which makes it ironic when people try to use Colossians 2:16 to prevent others from following Christ.

There is also the possibility of the circumcision party, addressed in other letters of Paul.

Paul was writing to a church he had never met and spelled out multiple possible distractions from the live of Christ they were now enjoying.

Philosophy is referenced, angel worship, strict treatment of the body, etc. The reference to philosophy is separated from the others by the treatment of not only feasts, new moons and sabbaths (along with what is likely food and drink offerings), but of circumcision.

Circumcision and the shadows are listed in the middle of this list, and form part of it. He tells them they are already circumcised (but not about physical circumcision), and they should not let anyone judge them on the appointed times.

Just as the other things in the list are things to be on guard about, these are too. Not because feasts, new moons or sabbaths are bad, they are instituted by God. But because they were not something the church there needed to worry about people judging them about.

The Jewish believers were likely keeping them, and the gentiles may or may not have been. But the gentiles were not required to be circumcised and keep the whole law of Moses.
 
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tall73

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To say that God is holy means that God practices holiness, so to say that God's holiness is eternal means that there exists an eternal way to practice holiness, which existed before God gave any instructions for how to do that, so all of God's holy days existed eternally prior to Israel.

God's holiness, and ways to live out that holiness, does not mean that God's appointed times were somehow obligatory upon those who had never received them.

I raised the text in Genesis 1 as possibly pointing to the appointed times, due to the phrasing, and you agreed that was your view.

Genesis 1:14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so.

Certainly God knows the end from the beginning, as His word indicates. So in the same way that Christ was the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world God would know before it ever happened all of the particulars of sin, the fall, the appointed times of Israel, etc.

But that does not mean that someone like Joseph, for instance, would somehow be obligated to the particulars of the passover prior to its institution.
 
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There are many important events that coincide with God's feasts and they have important themes that are woven through the NT, so it is worth studying them even for someone who doesn't think that we are obligated to keep them.

I certainly agree with that.
 
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In Romans 14:1 the subject of the chapter was in regard to how to handle disputable matters of opinion, not in regard to whether followers of God should follow what He has commanded, so nothing in the chapter should be interpreted as teaching rebellion against God.

You have limited the text artificially. It is quite broad. And it is in fact a disputable matter as to what days were observed, as we see in history a wide variety of practice from the historical quotes.

Gentiles were not required to be circumcised and keep the whole law of Moses. So while some were likely observing days, others didn't. It was an issue of dispute, but he says not to judge. And that is the same indication in Col. 2 which certainly references the appointed times.

He doesn't condemn those times, because those keeping them are doing so to the Lord, and of course he kept them himself.

Where God has given a clear command human opinion must yield, but where God has given no command, then we are free to follow our own opinions.


In Acts 15 and 21 the gentiles were not required to be physically circumcised and keep the law of Moses. They didn't have to become Jews to be Christians.

For example, in regard Romans 14:2-3, God gave no command to eat only vegetables, yet people were judging and resenting each other based on whether or not someone chose to do that, so it was this sort of judging each other over opinions that Paul was addressing in this chapter.

Indeed, though some think the rationale was to avoid meat sacrificed to idols, etc. which would then involve a command. Others think something else is referenced.


Paul was not suggesting that we are free to commit murder, adultery, theft, idolatry, kidnapping, rape, favoritism

Agreed. But gentiles were not said to be obligated to the whole law of Moses, including circumcision. You assert they had to keep the appointed times for Israel, but this text is very broad, and says not to judge.

In Romans 14:4-5, Paul spoke about eating or refraining from eating unto the Lord, so he was speaking about people who esteemed certain days for fasting as a disputable matter of opinion.

You mix the two issues, but he introduced two disputable matters, and they need not be related. One was eating only vegetables.

The other says:

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.

In the 1st century it had become a common practice to fast twice a week and people were judging and resenting each other over whether they chose to do that even though God gave no command to do that (Luke 18:12).

And you have read only the fasting days into this, but the text is broad.

The Sabbath is not even mentioned once in Romans 14

Neither is twice a week fasting stipulated.

There are two things referenced,

- eating only vegetable
- some who think all days alike, and some who observe days.

The days reference is quite broad.

The reason why were are to keep the Sabbath holy is not because man esteemed it a disputable matter of opinion, but because God made the world in six days, rested on the seventh, blessed it, made it holy, and commanded His people to keep it holy.

Yet all the references to this command indicate it was a sign with Israel.

Exodus 31:12 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 13 “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies[ you. 14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’ ”

Deuteronomy 5:12 ‘Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. 15 And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

And it is included in the appointed times with Israel along with sacrifices, as are the new moon, and feasts.

The gentile believers were not required to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses per Acts 15 and 21.
 
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In Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for Him was if hey taught against obeying God's law, if you think that Paul did that, then according to God you should consider him to be a false prophet. The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so we should be quicker to disregard everything that any man has said than to disregard anything that God has commanded, though the reality is that Paul was a servant of God, so he never spoke against anyone obeying anything that God has commanded.

Deut. 13:13 “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.

And per Acts 21 Paul was not turning Jewish believers away from circumcision or the commands of God to Israel who brought them out of Egypt. He kept the law.

But the gentiles were not required to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.
 
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tall73

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Either Acts 15:19-21 is an exhaustive list for everything that would ever be required of mature Gentile believers or it is not, so it is contradictory to treat it as being a non-exhaustive list by saying that there are obviously other laws that Gentiles should follow, such as the greatest two commandments, while also treating it as being an exhaustive list to limit which laws Gentiles should follow.

We agree it is not an exhaustive list. And there are certainly commands from the law given to Israel that have principles which also apply to gentiles. And Paul says so plainly.

But notice, when applying the command to honor father and mother he applies the promise in Ephesians in a slightly different way to long years on the earth, rather than remaining in the land of covenant promise.

The law given to Israel were the principles of God given in the context of a particular covenant with a particular people.

The new covenant is also given to Israel, and the law is written on the heart.

Gentiles are nonetheless included in the promises as Peter points out. But they are not required by the council to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.

So there may be a number of God's requirements from the law which point out wrong, and which are used to condemn the sinner.

1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is [c]contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

We see an application of the Levitical law regarding sexual immorality in the text you referenced earlier, I Corinthians 5, etc.

There are many righteous requirements spelled out for gentiles in the epistles, which are drawn from the law.

But in Acts 21, though the list was not exhaustive, it certainly did NOT mean that gentiles would have to be circumcised and keep the whole law of Moses in exactly the way the Jewish belivers did, or else it would be non-sense. Paul was going to go to the temple and pay for the men's vows, and yet he would not bring gentiles to the temple, they would not offer sacrifices, etc. So saying they would expect them to keep the various appointed times of Israel also is not at all obvious.

The distinctive aspects of the law given to Israel were not required of the gentiles, but the Jewish believers continued to keep them. That was the whole point of saying in Acts 21 that they knew Paul wasn't turning away Jews from circumcision and the law, but the gentiles were only required to do x,y,z.

So when we see times given to Israel which are said to be given to them specifically, throughout their generations, they apply to Israel, as part of the law. In Col 2. he tells the people not to let folks judge them on the feasts, new moons, sabbaths, because they are shadows of things to come, but they already have Christ, and he is the body to the shadow.

Romans 14 also says some treat all days alike. Some observe particular days.


However, it was not intended to be an exhaustive list for mature Gentile believers, but as stated, it was a list intended to make things not too difficult for new believers, which they excused by saying that Gentiles would continued to learn about Moses by hearing him taught each Sabbath in the synagogue, which also implies that they were expecting Gentiles to continue keeping the Sabbath in accordance with following Christ's example.

The gentiles would be meeting in the synagogue because that was where the Scriptures were read, etc. But the training wheels explanation doesn't hold. They were not just working up to circumcision and keeping the whole law of Moses, but were not required to do so.

So whether folks interpret them as rules for worshipping together, Noahide commands, etc. of which there are varying interpretations, the conclusion of the matter was that they didn't send the people who told the gentile believers to be circumcised, and who wanted them to keep the law of Moses. And decades later in Acts 21 they affirmed again that Paul did not turn Jewish people from the law, but did not have the same standard for gentiles.
 
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Either there are correct or incorrect reasons for becoming circumcised and Paul only spoke against the incorrect reasons, or according to Galatians 5:2, Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised right after the Jerusalem Council and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US. In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the reason for why God commanded circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld God's law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason. The Jerusalem Council did not have the authority to countermand God, so they should not be interpreted as ruling against obeying what God has commanded, and there are correct reasons for why a Gentile should want to become circumcised that are in accordance with what God has commanded, such as if they wanted to eat of the Passover lamb (Exodus 12:48).



Yes certain men required them to be circumcised to be saved:

15:1 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

But at the council the issue was looked at in it's full scope.

15:5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

They wanted them to join themselves formally to the covenant and law of Moses through circumcision as was practiced before for converts, keeping all the law.

We agree that to be circumcised for salvation purposes is wrong, and the council upheld that both Jew and Gentile were saved by faith.

But they also addressed the larger question of whether the gentiles had to keep the whole law of Moses. And instead this is the letter sent to the churches:

Acts 15:23 They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,
To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings.

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, (a) You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Farewell.

(a)Variant reading, Nestle Aland, United Bible Society omits saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”

They are not required to be circumcised. But they also addressed the question of keeping the whole law, as they are given a list of things that they are to do. Whether you include the variant reading or not, and I tend to follow the majority text, it is clear the issue was larger than just circumcision.

It would also be obvious it is not an exhaustive list, but it would address the contention of having to do all that goes with the law of Moses.
 
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A similar situation existed with the Galatian churches. They were being urged that circumcision and obedience to the law were required for salvation.

And Paul affirmed that righteousness does not come through the law but through Christ.

21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

However, here also he points out that the Galatians were not at that time under the law, but wanted to put themselves under it.

21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?

And it is in that context that he says that to be circumcised would mean Christ was of no value to them. And yes, as you said, it is because they are then trying to be saved by law, rather than grace.

But besides that, he already said they want to be under law, but if they become circumcised they have become debtors to the law, which they are then willingly placing themselves under


Galatians 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is [debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

Circumcision is here connected with putting oneself under the law as it was for those pushing for this at the council.
 
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Actually it gets to the heart of your OP - if you take your view of it - how in the world does the Col 2 topic even come up that you are discussing?

Addressed above. But you have intentionally avoided all throughout the thread the heart of the OP. You refuse to address the OT passages which list appointed times, which form the background of the listing that Paul uses in Col. 2

I addressed all of your various discussion points, but you have refused to comment on the actual topic of the thread.

The various OT listings included the weekly Sabbath.
 
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The Jerusalem Council did not have the authority to countermand God, so they should not be interpreted as ruling against obeying what God has commanded, and there are correct reasons for why a Gentile should want to become circumcised that are in accordance with what God has commanded, such as if they wanted to eat of the Passover lamb (Exodus 12:48).

But this was of the foreskin, not just the heart, right?

Exodus 12:47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. 48 And when a stranger [l]dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it.

In Deuteronomy 10:12-16, God instructed His people to circumcise our hearts and obey His commandments.

But that included physical circumcision as well, not just of the heart right? Physical circumcision was one of the commandments.

Deuteronomy 10:12 “And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, 13 and to keep the commandments of the Lord and His statutes which I command you today for your [f]good? 14 Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to the Lord your God, also the earth with all that is in it. 15 The Lord delighted only in your fathers, to love them; and He chose their [descendants after them, you above all peoples, as it is this day. 16 Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer.


But the council did not require them to be circumcised. It said the people who said so were not seNt, and gave them a list, with circumcision not being on it.

Paul speaking to the Galatians says

2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

That would indicate that these believers in Galatia were NOT physically circumcised. If they were, they wouldn't be seeking to become so. Paul does not urge them to be physically circumcised either.

Nor did he allow Titus to be circumcised.

Galatians 2:3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.

You reference Timothy, yet he also had Jewish ancestry. And he clearly was doing it for reasons other than salvation, as you allude to.

But the law required circumcision for males in Israel. And physical circumcision was not required of Titus. And it was not required of the rest of the gentiles. And the Galatians had not done it.

Yet the apostles were not false prophets. The gentiles did not need to become Jews to become Christians.

Peter noted that God accepted the gentiles and cleansed their hearts by faith.

6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

James notes that this acceptance was foretold:

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16
‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17
So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’

The gentiles called by His name are seeking the Lord. But they don't have to become Jews for God to accept them.

Peter was criticized for going to the house of uncircumcised men. But he said:

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”

18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”
 
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I don't say any of this as a form of objection to having the New Moon observed in the New Earth for all eternity. Nor would I object to the Rom 14 case where someone chose to set that day apart as a day of worship.

And I would say the same about the new moon AND the Sabbath, as they are both included in the list in Col. 2 And back to the topic of the thread which you have been avoiding, the OT parallel texts show it.
 
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My posts here are not about "me judging" (nor do you quote anything in your OP about me "judging") -- My posts are about "me noting what the Bible says about God's Commandments and specifically the 4th commandment".

Is it your view that if we post what the Bible says on this topic - we are unlawfully judging others??

Bob, the topic is how the OT parallel texts form the background of Col. 2.

And the OT parallel text show that the list includes the weekly Sabbath, that it is a shadow. That informs what he says about not letting anyone judge them in regards to them.

The context of Col. 2 is decidedly not about what BobRyan does on a forum.

I see the apostle Paul saying that they should not let anyone judge them in regards to these shadows. That therefore informs my take on everything in the list. I don't judge regarding them.

And that is wholly apart from any calculation of what Bob does with his forum time.
 
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