If God is sovereign how can man have free will?

[Neostarwcc]

I know there has been a billion topics on this subject including one made by me several months ago but they're all inactive now and I don't want to resurrect old topics. My question is a common one. It is this, if mankind is really free to decide whatever they want, how can God be sovereign? Don't forget, the Bible says that God is sovereign over ALL things. If our will is somehow exempt from this how can God still be sovereign over all things? Including being sovereign over our human nature. Surely if we were sovereign our sin would be a free will choice and not something that we do without even thinking. So if we truly had free will those of us who are true Christians would never sin against God again. Think about it, everytime we sin the Holy Spirit convicts us and makes us feel dead inside. If we had freewill and chose according to our desires every true child of God would NEVER sin again because we don't want to sin. We want to obey God and his commands. We want to follow God's will for our lives so if we had free will, if sin were really a choice what do you think Christians would chose?

I mean, think of the story of Joseph and his brothers. When his brothers repented what did Joseph say to them? You meant sin for evil buy God meant it for good. Or the story of Pharoah. The Bible says that God hardened his heart so that Pharoah wouldn't let Moses or the Israelites go, Did Pharoah have free will? Of course not or the Bible wouldn't have said that Pharoah was created for destruction and that God hardened his heart on purpose.


i mean, examine the animals or fish. Do they have a free will? Or does God declare what they do and don't do? What about DNA, atoms, the universe, or planets? Do they have the freedom to act as they want or does God determine what they do? It's ludicrous to suggest that these things have the ability to choose whatever they want or nothing that God created would be subject to or obey him. Think about it, if planets moved as they freely wanted than they could just freely crash into the Earth and kill everything living on the planet. God has to be sovereign over space or we would all die. If DNA did whatever it wanted to how could we survive? If atoms ran amok there would be massive nuclear explosions everywhere, Chaos. Yet, somehow humanity is the one exemption? So God is sovereign over all things but not humans because humans can run amok and do horrible things?

But answer me this. What if the fall was foreordained by God? Let's say Adam and Eve's rebellion against God was exactly what God wanted. Why would that be a bad thing? Our salvation was also ordained by God and what if like Joseph's brothers Adam and Eve meant their sin to be evil but God wanted it for the good of the world?

I am not demeaning man's responsibility in its falleness or mankinds responsibity to positively respond to the Gospel. Nor am I calling God evil. I'm calling him the exact opposite of evil. I'm calling him so sovereign and so in control and so good that we don't even realize it. I'm calling our inherited sinful nature foreordained by God so that he could show his creation just how good he is. After all, that's why God chose to save humanity. To display his goodness and for his glory. I mean just think about it. If God wasn't in control of humanity there would be SO much more Chaos than there is right now. The days of Noah are living proof to just how fallen mankind really is and God said, before time as we know it ends the world is going to be EXACTLY as it was in the days of Noah. And we're starting to see it, babies being murdered by the millions, homosexuals being allowed to marry and mate all in the name of "love"? Wake up! Quit calling evil good and quit calling God evil. God is more holy than any of our feeble tiny minds could EVER comprehend. God is in control it does NOT make us robots it makes us humans created by God and as humans our natural inclination is to do evil. We do what our father the devil desires. Only God can regenerate the hearts of mankind to accept him and to desire to be Holy and keep his commands. By ourselves we will only sin and sin and sin with no end in sight. We would all be like Hitler and the evil men of history if God had no control over our lives. Because the unregenerate heart desires evil it lives for evil and it will only DO evil.


Anyway, I apologize for making my case so long. If you want the TLDR of the topic it's the question "if mankind really is free, how can God be sovereign over all things?"

 

[HTacianas]

I know there has been a billion topics on this subject including one made by me several months ago but they're all inactive now and I don't want to resurrect old topics. My question is a common one. It is this, if mankind is really free to decide whatever they want, how can God be sovereign? Don't forget, the Bible says that God is sovereign over ALL things. If our will is somehow exempt from this how can God still be sovereign over all things? Including being sovereign over our human nature. Surely if we were sovereign our sin would be a free will choice and not something that we do without even thinking. So if we truly had free will those of us who are true Christians would never sin against God again. Think about it, everytime we sin the Holy Spirit convicts us and makes us feel dead inside. If we had freewill and chose according to our desires every true child of God would NEVER sin again because we don't want to sin. We want to obey God and his commands. We want to follow God's will for our lives so if we had free will, if sin were really a choice what do you think Christians would chose?

I mean, think of the story of Joseph and his brothers. When his brothers repented what did Joseph say to them? You meant sin for evil buy God meant it for good. Or the story of Pharoah. The Bible says that God hardened his heart so that Pharoah wouldn't let Moses or the Israelites go, Did Pharoah have free will? Of course not or the Bible wouldn't have said that Pharoah was created for destruction and that God hardened his heart on purpose.


i mean, examine the animals or fish. Do they have a free will? Or does God declare what they do and don't do? What about DNA, atoms, the universe, or planets? Do they have the freedom to act as they want or does God determine what they do? It's ludicrous to suggest that these things have the ability to choose whatever they want or nothing that God created would be subject to or obey him. Think about it, if planets moved as they freely wanted than they could just freely crash into the Earth and kill everything living on the planet. God has to be sovereign over space or we would all die. If DNA did whatever it wanted to how could we survive? If atoms ran amok there would be massive nuclear explosions everywhere, Chaos. Yet, somehow humanity is the one exemption? So God is sovereign over all things but not humans because humans can run amok and do horrible things?

But answer me this. What if the fall was foreordained by God? Let's say Adam and Eve's rebellion against God was exactly what God wanted. Why would that be a bad thing? Our salvation was also ordained by God and what if like Joseph's brothers Adam and Eve meant their sin to be evil but God wanted it for the good of the world?

I am not demeaning man's responsibility in its falleness or mankinds responsibity to positively respond to the Gospel. Nor am I calling God evil. I'm calling him the exact opposite of evil. I'm calling him so sovereign and so in control and so good that we don't even realize it. I'm calling our inherited sinful nature foreordained by God so that he could show his creation just how good he is. After all, that's why God chose to save humanity. To display his goodness and for his glory. I mean just think about it. If God wasn't in control of humanity there would be SO much more Chaos than there is right now. The days of Noah are living proof to just how fallen mankind really is and God said, before time as we know it ends the world is going to be EXACTLY as it was in the days of Noah. And we're starting to see it, babies being murdered by the millions, homosexuals being allowed to marry and mate all in the name of "love"? Wake up! Quit calling evil good and quit calling God evil. God is more holy than any of our feeble tiny minds could EVER comprehend. God is in control it does NOT make us robots it makes us humans created by God and as humans our natural inclination is to do evil. We do what our father the devil desires. Only God can regenerate the hearts of mankind to accept him and to desire to be Holy and keep his commands. By ourselves we will only sin and sin and sin with no end in sight. We would all be like Hitler and the evil men of history if God had no control over our lives. Because the unregenerate heart desires evil it lives for evil and it will only DO evil.


Anyway, I apologize for making my case so long. If you want the TLDR of the topic it's the question "if mankind really is free, how can God be sovereign over all things?"

To say that God is sovereign is to say that God is the highest authority, subject to no other authority. By way of example, one cannot sue God. To sue God would mean to bring Him before some higher authority to pass judgement on Him. Since there is no higher authority there is no authority to pass judgement.

To free will, rocks, trees, plants, animals and the like, only sit, lie, act, not act, according to their nature, animals according to instinct. Mankind also possesses instinct, but also possesses the knowledge of right and wrong, a higher order. Mankind is in fact commanded to resist the animal instinct and to act according to that higher order. An example would be an animal with food. The animal will fight with other animals to keep the food and ensure its own survival. Unlike animals, man is commanded to share with others and not be selfish. But there are some who refuse to do that, and only act on their animal instincts. Eventually they end up as a Saddam Hussein, only caring about themselves at the expense of others. The bible refers to those as beasts:

Jde 1:10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.

 

[Laodicean60]

To say that God is sovereign is to say that God is the highest authority, subject to no other authority. By way of example, one cannot sue God. To sue God would mean to bring Him before some higher authority to pass judgement on Him. Since there is no higher authority there is no authority to pass judgement.

To free will, rocks, trees, plants, animals and the like, only sit, lie, act, not act, according to their nature, animals according to instinct. Mankind also possesses instinct, but also possesses the knowledge of right and wrong, a higher order. Mankind is in fact commanded to resist the animal instinct and to act according to that higher order. An example would be an animal with food. The animal will fight with other animals to keep the food and ensure its own survival. Unlike animals, man is commanded to share with others and not be selfish. But there are some who refuse to do that, and only act on their animal instincts. Eventually they end up as a Saddam Hussein, only caring about themselves at the expense of others. The bible refers to those as beasts:

Jde 1:10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.

I think humans treat each other worse than animals do. I found out George's war was over the petrodollar and Hillary's Libia for the same. Trillions of dollars in debt and it's us that get crushed during an economic crisis. Do you know our politicians don't know macroeconomics and they set fiscal policy? Ray Dalio's Changing World Order is a good watch.

 

[PloverWing]

It is this, if mankind is really free to decide whatever they want, how can God be sovereign?

Can you define exactly what you mean when you say that God is sovereign? I can think of several different things you might mean, and the way I'd approach the question depends on which meaning you have in mind.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Neostarwcc said:
It is this, if mankind is really free to decide whatever they want, how can God be sovereign?

Can you define exactly what you mean when you say that God is sovereign? I can think of several different things you might mean, and the way I'd approach the question depends on which meaning you have in mind.

For what it is worth, @Neostarwcc and I are agreed, yet I say that we are free to decide whatever we want. The difference is that I mean that we are in fact, bound by our desires, and not free in the sense that we can operate outside God's sovereignty. We are, thus, both —free to choose according to our preferences, and bound to choose according to our preferences, our desires and inclinations. @Neostarwcc means that no human is free in the sense that they can operate independent of God's decree/causation. FWIW the same is true concerning Satan, whose every move, every thought and desire and deed, done in opposition to God, serves God's purposes.

'Sovereignty', when used to describe God, doesn't mean only sovereign in the sense that a nation or state is sovereign, which only means that no other nation or state rules over them —they are independent of other nations/states. God is sovereign over all fact, he rules his own realm, which includes all reality. This is a result of him CAUSING all reality —which is logically necessary, or he is not omnipotent, not first cause, and not God.

There is no 'dualism' between God and Evil/Satan. God is absolute master.

 

[eleos1954]

I know there has been a billion topics on this subject including one made by me several months ago but they're all inactive now and I don't want to resurrect old topics. My question is a common one. It is this, if mankind is really free to decide whatever they want, how can God be sovereign? Don't forget, the Bible says that God is sovereign over ALL things. If our will is somehow exempt from this how can God still be sovereign over all things? Including being sovereign over our human nature. Surely if we were sovereign our sin would be a free will choice and not something that we do without even thinking. So if we truly had free will those of us who are true Christians would never sin against God again. Think about it, everytime we sin the Holy Spirit convicts us and makes us feel dead inside. If we had freewill and chose according to our desires every true child of God would NEVER sin again because we don't want to sin. We want to obey God and his commands. We want to follow God's will for our lives so if we had free will, if sin were really a choice what do you think Christians would chose?

I mean, think of the story of Joseph and his brothers. When his brothers repented what did Joseph say to them? You meant sin for evil buy God meant it for good. Or the story of Pharoah. The Bible says that God hardened his heart so that Pharoah wouldn't let Moses or the Israelites go, Did Pharoah have free will? Of course not or the Bible wouldn't have said that Pharoah was created for destruction and that God hardened his heart on purpose.


i mean, examine the animals or fish. Do they have a free will? Or does God declare what they do and don't do? What about DNA, atoms, the universe, or planets? Do they have the freedom to act as they want or does God determine what they do? It's ludicrous to suggest that these things have the ability to choose whatever they want or nothing that God created would be subject to or obey him. Think about it, if planets moved as they freely wanted than they could just freely crash into the Earth and kill everything living on the planet. God has to be sovereign over space or we would all die. If DNA did whatever it wanted to how could we survive? If atoms ran amok there would be massive nuclear explosions everywhere, Chaos. Yet, somehow humanity is the one exemption? So God is sovereign over all things but not humans because humans can run amok and do horrible things?

But answer me this. What if the fall was foreordained by God? Let's say Adam and Eve's rebellion against God was exactly what God wanted. Why would that be a bad thing? Our salvation was also ordained by God and what if like Joseph's brothers Adam and Eve meant their sin to be evil but God wanted it for the good of the world?

I am not demeaning man's responsibility in its falleness or mankinds responsibity to positively respond to the Gospel. Nor am I calling God evil. I'm calling him the exact opposite of evil. I'm calling him so sovereign and so in control and so good that we don't even realize it. I'm calling our inherited sinful nature foreordained by God so that he could show his creation just how good he is. After all, that's why God chose to save humanity. To display his goodness and for his glory. I mean just think about it. If God wasn't in control of humanity there would be SO much more Chaos than there is right now. The days of Noah are living proof to just how fallen mankind really is and God said, before time as we know it ends the world is going to be EXACTLY as it was in the days of Noah. And we're starting to see it, babies being murdered by the millions, homosexuals being allowed to marry and mate all in the name of "love"? Wake up! Quit calling evil good and quit calling God evil. God is more holy than any of our feeble tiny minds could EVER comprehend. God is in control it does NOT make us robots it makes us humans created by God and as humans our natural inclination is to do evil. We do what our father the devil desires. Only God can regenerate the hearts of mankind to accept him and to desire to be Holy and keep his commands. By ourselves we will only sin and sin and sin with no end in sight. We would all be like Hitler and the evil men of history if God had no control over our lives. Because the unregenerate heart desires evil it lives for evil and it will only DO evil.


Anyway, I apologize for making my case so long. If you want the TLDR of the topic it's the question "if mankind really is free, how can God be sovereign over all things?"

God is sovereign basically means that He has the power, wisdom, and authority to do anything He chooses within His creation. Whether or not He actually exerts that level of control in any given circumstance and HIs reason(s) for doing so is often not known to us. He knows all things .... we don't ... in Him we trust (faith). God created us as free agents .... without free choice .... true love can not exist ... one can not force one to love another.

Because God is all knowing .... He knew man would choose to rebuke His love (HIs ways) .... that is why the plan of salvation was put in place before the creation of everything.

 

[Blade]

Our view is skewed. We want to talk about free will yet were stuck still in this fallen world where Satan is god. Just to touch.. we have natures laws, we have Gods laws, NT the law of sin and death. Sorry what were we talking about again?

Yet what did Christ say? "nevertheless not my will, but thine be done". So yes we have freewill but it still has walls, laws things that we get no say in. All in this time bubble that has a end. So your freewill can choose Christ or sin aka Satan period.

 

[BobRyan]

I know there has been a billion topics on this subject including one made by me several months ago but they're all inactive now and I don't want to resurrect old topics. My question is a common one. It is this, if mankind is really free to decide whatever they want, how can God be sovereign? Don't forget, the Bible says that God is sovereign over ALL things.

depends on how you define "sovereign" and "free will".

If God is truly sovereign - then He is free to declare that He will support and maintain "Free Will" in all of his intelligent creation, or does God not have that much "free will" in your scenario?

If God enables man to have free will then He has enabled man to reject God's leading if he (man) so chooses.

EVEN in the case that humans choose rebellion and fall from Eden - God also has the power and free will to choose to supernaturally "Draw ALL mankind" John 12:32 such that the drawing of ALL - enables ALL to accept the Gospel or to reject it without simply leaving ALL stuck at the level "not possible to choose to accept the Gospel, when moved by the Holy Spirit to accept".

What if the fall was foreordained by God? Let's say Adam and Eve's rebellion against God was exactly what God wanted. Why would that be a bad thing?

hmm so then "God wanted to destroy all mankind except for 8 people at the flood" ? even though in Gen 6 He said that was the farthest thing from His mind as to what he 'wanted' man to do?

And "God wanted to torture himself on the cross to save whoseoever-will among mankind"??

And "God wanted to lose 1/3 of the angels in heaven"?

 

[Laodicean60]

My take is that God is at the top of the food chain. He is as sovereign as his Word allows. He told us to be fruitful and multiply and also said not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge. Look what free will got us.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Can you define exactly what you mean when you say that God is sovereign? I can think of several different things you might mean, and the way I'd approach the question depends on which meaning you have in mind.

Gods sovereignty means that God is in control of all things and decrees everything that comes to pass including the so called "free will" of mankind. So my question is if we have free will as in the sense that many Christians define free will how can God be sovereign over all things like scripture says he is? If im still not making sense I apologize it's the best way I can explain my question.


I mean, almost every Christian calls God sovereign but as soon as that sovereignty messes with human "freedom" they all of a sudden believe that God isn't sovereign at all or God is soveriegn over space and animals and atoms and other stuff but theres no way my life is predetermined by God (when scripture says all of our days were written in the book of life before any of them came to be". If God is not sovereign over whatsoever comes to pass than he can't be an all knowing, all powerful and omnipotent God.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Neostarwcc said:
It is this, if mankind is really free to decide whatever they want, how can God be sovereign?

For what it is worth, @Neostarwcc and I are agreed, yet I say that we are free to decide whatever we want. The difference is that I mean that we are in fact, bound by our desires, and not free in the sense that we can operate outside God's sovereignty. We are, thus, both —free to choose according to our preferences, and bound to choose according to our preferences, our desires and inclinations. @Neostarwcc means that no human is free in the sense that they can operate independent of God's decree/causation. FWIW the same is true concerning Satan, whose every move, every thought and desire and deed, done in opposition to God, serves God's purposes.

'Sovereignty', when used to describe God, doesn't mean only sovereign in the sense that a nation or state is sovereign, which only means that no other nation or state rules over them —they are independent of other nations/states. God is sovereign over all fact, he rules his own realm, which includes all reality. This is a result of him CAUSING all reality —which is logically necessary, or he is not omnipotent, not first cause, and not God.

There is no 'dualism' between God and Evil/Satan. God is absolute master.

I would disagree with you on that point. I say God decreed our days before one of them ever came to be. Who we would marry, what school to go to, where we work if we do ...etc. Even our sins are predetermined by God and God uses them dor good (although that is questionable. It may not be found in the Bible like the rest of what i said). I mean, look at Ephesians 2:10. All of our works were pre-planned by God. I mean, I highly doubt the apostles would debate with us on God's sovereignty.

I say even our salvation is predetermined by God (but you being reformed too I'm sure you agree with that part) but then again I'm a conservative Presbyterian and you sound like you're mainline reformed. Even the reformed disagree with each other on some points.

I've met reformed Christians who believe in evolution and that's how God created the world and God didn't make everything in 6 literally days but its more symbolic. Yet the church I belong t takes the Bible literally and we would reject evolution and say God created everything in six days like he said he did. But that's another topic.

 

[bling]

I know there has been a billion topics on this subject including one made by me several months ago but they're all inactive now and I don't want to resurrect old topics. My question is a common one. It is this, if mankind is really free to decide whatever they want, how can God be sovereign? Don't forget, the Bible says that God is sovereign over ALL things. If our will is somehow exempt from this how can God still be sovereign over all things? Including being sovereign over our human nature. Surely if we were sovereign our sin would be a free will choice and not something that we do without even thinking. So if we truly had free will those of us who are true Christians would never sin against God again. Think about it, everytime we sin the Holy Spirit convicts us and makes us feel dead inside. If we had freewill and chose according to our desires every true child of God would NEVER sin again because we don't want to sin. We want to obey God and his commands. We want to follow God's will for our lives so if we had free will, if sin were really a choice what do you think Christians would chose?

I mean, think of the story of Joseph and his brothers. When his brothers repented what did Joseph say to them? You meant sin for evil buy God meant it for good. Or the story of Pharoah. The Bible says that God hardened his heart so that Pharoah wouldn't let Moses or the Israelites go, Did Pharoah have free will? Of course not or the Bible wouldn't have said that Pharoah was created for destruction and that God hardened his heart on purpose.


i mean, examine the animals or fish. Do they have a free will? Or does God declare what they do and don't do? What about DNA, atoms, the universe, or planets? Do they have the freedom to act as they want or does God determine what they do? It's ludicrous to suggest that these things have the ability to choose whatever they want or nothing that God created would be subject to or obey him. Think about it, if planets moved as they freely wanted than they could just freely crash into the Earth and kill everything living on the planet. God has to be sovereign over space or we would all die. If DNA did whatever it wanted to how could we survive? If atoms ran amok there would be massive nuclear explosions everywhere, Chaos. Yet, somehow humanity is the one exemption? So God is sovereign over all things but not humans because humans can run amok and do horrible things?

But answer me this. What if the fall was foreordained by God? Let's say Adam and Eve's rebellion against God was exactly what God wanted. Why would that be a bad thing? Our salvation was also ordained by God and what if like Joseph's brothers Adam and Eve meant their sin to be evil but God wanted it for the good of the world?

I am not demeaning man's responsibility in its falleness or mankinds responsibity to positively respond to the Gospel. Nor am I calling God evil. I'm calling him the exact opposite of evil. I'm calling him so sovereign and so in control and so good that we don't even realize it. I'm calling our inherited sinful nature foreordained by God so that he could show his creation just how good he is. After all, that's why God chose to save humanity. To display his goodness and for his glory. I mean just think about it. If God wasn't in control of humanity there would be SO much more Chaos than there is right now. The days of Noah are living proof to just how fallen mankind really is and God said, before time as we know it ends the world is going to be EXACTLY as it was in the days of Noah. And we're starting to see it, babies being murdered by the millions, homosexuals being allowed to marry and mate all in the name of "love"? Wake up! Quit calling evil good and quit calling God evil. God is more holy than any of our feeble tiny minds could EVER comprehend. God is in control it does NOT make us robots it makes us humans created by God and as humans our natural inclination is to do evil. We do what our father the devil desires. Only God can regenerate the hearts of mankind to accept him and to desire to be Holy and keep his commands. By ourselves we will only sin and sin and sin with no end in sight. We would all be like Hitler and the evil men of history if God had no control over our lives. Because the unregenerate heart desires evil it lives for evil and it will only DO evil.


Anyway, I apologize for making my case so long. If you want the TLDR of the topic it's the question "if mankind really is free, how can God be sovereign over all things?"

Think about this: If I know perfectly a truly free will choice you made yesterday that choice is fixed and cannot be changed since it is history. The fact I know your free will choice of yesterday, does not keep it from being a free will choice.

History cannot be changed even if God was the only one to know about something that has happened, since it still happened it is history. Since God does everything right perfectly the first time, there is no reason to do it over again.

God is outside of time and omnipresent throughout time, so God at the end of time knows everything historically that has happened throughout time, making it unchangeable (fixed). Yet again just because God at the end of time knows all things that happened throughout time perfectly, does not mean human autonomous free will choice could not have been made.

God’s actions are also fixed and can be called foreordained or predestined.

God did not present this miraculous method of “how” He knows the future, but that is not unusual while communicating to man from man’s perspective is also God’s way.

There are other ways God can know stuff, but He is outside of time, so He also knows everything historically throughout time?

God is very much interacting with humans, and He does the absolute best thing, so there is no reason for a do over.

Jesus knew when He was teaching His disciple, what He would be going through on the cross as pure history, but that does not mean He was on the cross constantly.

Everything needs to start with the objective.

The differences and issues begin with misunderstanding of the objective. Most Christians like: Man’s objective is to “bring glory to God” and have scripture references to support that objective, but a person can take any commandment or direction of God given in scripture and have Biblical support for call that command: “Man’s Objective”. We are certainly commanded to do that command, so why is it not man’s objective?

There are the two superior commands which all other commands are subordinate to and combined would be like: “Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy.” That appears to be man’s “Mission Statement”. The huge problem with fulfilling that “Mission Statement” is the fact that the “Love” needed would have to be huge, way beyond anything man could develop, learn, deserve, earn, pay back, be instinctive to man, or somehow just be forced upon humans.

Thus, the reason you have free will, is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

This messed up world which includes satan roaming around is not here for your pleasure, but to help each of us to become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

There are just somethings even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), like create another Christ, since Christ has always existed, the big impossibility for us is; create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also, if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type Love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

Read the story of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15, the young son was generously given more then he could handle (like most of us today), which the father would realize. The prodigal son returned to his father, not out of “Love”, but selfishly wanting a job he did not deserve or should even ask for. Just because the son became just willing to accept pure undeserved charity from the father he hated, allowed the father to shower him with gifts. God is that way with you.

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest gift being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.

God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force [Love] in all universes, since that force [Love] compels even God to do all He does) and thus the willing become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time.

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them, burden them, to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

Sin has purpose in helping willing humans in fulfilling their objective. God does not like it but allows it.

Unfortunately, I, along with others, needed to see and know the brevity of life in order to respond sooner than later. Time is not on our side, since we do not get better, but worse. If everyone had at least 60 years, there would be no rush to repent and repenting does not get easier with time. We all tend to spiral down into the pigsty of life (like the prodigal son) and that does help, if when we do come to our senses we turn to the Father, but that does not have to take 60 years.

Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.

If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I would disagree with you on that point. I say God decreed our days before one of them ever came to be. Who we would marry, what school to go to, where we work if we do ...etc. Even our sins are predetermined by God and God uses them dor good (although that is questionable. It may not be found in the Bible like the rest of what i said). I mean, look at Ephesians 2:10. All of our works were pre-planned by God. I mean, I highly doubt the apostles would debate with us on God's sovereignty.

I say even our salvation is predetermined by God (but you being reformed too I'm sure you agree with that part) but then again I'm a conservative Presbyterian and you sound like you're mainline reformed. Even the reformed disagree with each other on some points.

I've met reformed Christians who believe in evolution and that's how God created the world and God didn't make everything in 6 literally days but its more symbolic. Yet the church I belong t takes the Bible literally and we would reject evolution and say God created everything in six days like he said he did. But that's another topic.

I don't see what you are disagreeing with. I am agreed with everything you just said, (except maybe where you said, "I would disagree with you on that point." HAHA) God absolutely decreed EVERY thing, down to the most minute motion or force or principle of the smallest particle. And the combinations of forms for beauty and desire. And on and on, literally ad infinitum.

Oh, and by the way, yes he uses our sins (and Satan's sins) for good. Look at Joseph telling his brothers, that what they meant for evil, God INTENDED for good! And God works all things for good, to those who love him, to the called according to his purpose.

There are other ways God can know stuff, but He is outside of time, so He also knows everything historically throughout time?

Bling, the thing is, NONE of this is anything of itself, but it proceeds forth from God. Your whole post was stated from the human POV. @Neostarwcc above misunderstood me to think that God only ordains certain things, and he wanted to correct me on that. He was right about God decreeing all the things he mentioned, except as to that, he didn't go far enough!

You speak as though God must consider and plan according to things that happen TO him, instead of those things proceeding from him. Our choices do not happen TO him. Reality is HIS. HE made it. HE invented FACT. God is not a mere superhuman. He is first cause. OMNIPOTENT. He answers to nothing —not anyone, nor any principle or fact. They (we) are HIS to do with as he wishes. HE made all this. He is doing all this. He spoke it into existence. It doesn't happen TO him.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God is sovereign basically means that He has the power, wisdom, and authority to do anything He chooses within His creation. Whether or not He actually exerts that level of control in any given circumstance and HIs reason(s) for doing so is often not known to us. He knows all things .... we don't ... in Him we trust (faith). God created us as free agents .... without free choice .... true love can not exist ... one can not force one to love another.

How do you know this —your intuitive reason, or Scripture?

Because God is all knowing .... He knew man would choose to rebuke His love (HIs ways) .... that is why the plan of salvation was put in place before the creation of everything.

If God is all knowing, yet created anyway, he intended it. He didn't just decree some things, and let mere chance decree the rest.

 

[bling]

I don't see what you are disagreeing with. I am agreed with everything you just said, (except maybe where you said, "I would disagree with you on that point." HAHA) God absolutely decreed EVERY thing, down to the most minute motion or force or principle of the smallest particle. And the combinations of forms for beauty and desire. And on and on, literally ad infinitum.

Oh, and by the way, yes he uses our sins (and Satan's sins) for good. Look at Joseph telling his brothers, that what they meant for evil, God INTENDED for good! And God works all things for good, to those who love him, to the called according to his purpose.

Bling, the thing is, NONE of this is anything of itself, but it proceeds forth from God. Your whole post was stated from the human POV. @Neostarwcc above misunderstood me to think that God only ordains certain things, and he wanted to correct me on that. He was right about God decreeing all the things he mentioned, except as to that, he didn't go far enough!

You speak as though God must consider and plan according to things that happen TO him, instead of those things proceeding from him. Our choices do not happen TO him. Reality is HIS. HE made it. HE invented FACT. God is not a mere superhuman. He is first cause. OMNIPOTENT. He answers to nothing —not anyone, nor any principle or fact. They (we) are HIS to do with as he wishes. HE made all this. He is doing all this. He spoke it into existence. It doesn't happen TO him.

We have been through this before.
Everything does not happen from "the first single cause". God creating matter, energy, space and time does not mean life will happen later. Life was not an automatic result of one single first cause.
Does God have the power, knowledge and Love to create in humans the ability to be a first cause (make an autonomous free will choice)?

 

[Mark Quayle]

We have been through this before.
Everything does not happen from "the first single cause". God creating matter, energy, space and time does not mean life will happen later. Life was not an automatic result of one single first cause.
Does God have the power, knowledge and Love to create in humans the ability to be a first cause (make an autonomous free will choice)?

Yes, we've been through this before, and you still want some illogical magic to prevail.

You've probably heard me tell of the 'science writer' who rather poetically said something like, "The seeds of all we see now, were sown in the Big Bang." Ignoring the question of the BB for now, his logic is accurate. What we have now is derived from what came before it. Whether anything now comes from First Cause directly or indirectly, it does come from First Cause. It is inescapable logic.

Also, there can be no little first causes, that come after First Cause. It is self-contradictory nonsense. The only truly Autonomous Free Will is God himself. (Yes, it is redundant to say "truly" there, but just to mitigate notions sloughing into other uses for 'autonomous'.)

 

[PloverWing]

Gods sovereignty means that God is in control of all things and decrees everything that comes to pass including the so called "free will" of mankind. So my question is if we have free will as in the sense that many Christians define free will how can God be sovereign over all things like scripture says he is? If im still not making sense I apologize it's the best way I can explain my question.


I mean, almost every Christian calls God sovereign but as soon as that sovereignty messes with human "freedom" they all of a sudden believe that God isn't sovereign at all or God is soveriegn over space and animals and atoms and other stuff but theres no way my life is predetermined by God (when scripture says all of our days were written in the book of life before any of them came to be". If God is not sovereign over whatsoever comes to pass than he can't be an all knowing, all powerful and omnipotent God.

Okay, thanks, that helps to clarify. I also found your initial post in this thread (God is in complete control.), which helps as well.

Saying "God is sovereign" is language that I chiefly hear in the Reformed tradition. I don't hear this particular phrasing much from non-Reformed Christians, which is why I wanted to understand better what you mean when you use that phrase. The phrase could mean things like "God is the creator" or "God is the most powerful being" or "God will heal and restore all things", or some other meaning. But I think you're using it to mean that God directly controls and causes all that happens. If I buy a red apple instead of a green apple at the store today, God directed me to make that choice. If a squirrel later steals the apple out of my grocery bag and eats it, God made the squirrel do that. Have I understood you correctly?

If so, I think this is a difficult belief to work with. For me, it makes too much of human life an illusion, which is one of the reasons I'm not Reformed. I'll step back and let you work through it with some of the other Reformed CF-ers. You might also talk with your pastor; since his seminary training will give him some theological depth, and he should be able to tell you whether you're interpreting Calvin correctly.

 

[tonychanyt]

I know there has been a billion topics on this subject including one made by me several months ago but they're all inactive now and I don't want to resurrect old topics. My question is a common one. It is this, if mankind is really free to decide whatever they want, how can God be sovereign? Don't forget, the Bible says that God is sovereign over ALL things. If our will is somehow exempt from this how can God still be sovereign over all things? Including being sovereign over our human nature. Surely if we were sovereign our sin would be a free will choice and not something that we do without even thinking. So if we truly had free will those of us who are true Christians would never sin against God again. Think about it, everytime we sin the Holy Spirit convicts us and makes us feel dead inside. If we had freewill and chose according to our desires every true child of God would NEVER sin again because we don't want to sin. We want to obey God and his commands. We want to follow God's will for our lives so if we had free will, if sin were really a choice what do you think Christians would chose?

I mean, think of the story of Joseph and his brothers. When his brothers repented what did Joseph say to them? You meant sin for evil buy God meant it for good. Or the story of Pharoah. The Bible says that God hardened his heart so that Pharoah wouldn't let Moses or the Israelites go, Did Pharoah have free will? Of course not or the Bible wouldn't have said that Pharoah was created for destruction and that God hardened his heart on purpose.


i mean, examine the animals or fish. Do they have a free will? Or does God declare what they do and don't do? What about DNA, atoms, the universe, or planets? Do they have the freedom to act as they want or does God determine what they do? It's ludicrous to suggest that these things have the ability to choose whatever they want or nothing that God created would be subject to or obey him. Think about it, if planets moved as they freely wanted than they could just freely crash into the Earth and kill everything living on the planet. God has to be sovereign over space or we would all die. If DNA did whatever it wanted to how could we survive? If atoms ran amok there would be massive nuclear explosions everywhere, Chaos. Yet, somehow humanity is the one exemption? So God is sovereign over all things but not humans because humans can run amok and do horrible things?

But answer me this. What if the fall was foreordained by God? Let's say Adam and Eve's rebellion against God was exactly what God wanted. Why would that be a bad thing? Our salvation was also ordained by God and what if like Joseph's brothers Adam and Eve meant their sin to be evil but God wanted it for the good of the world?

I am not demeaning man's responsibility in its falleness or mankinds responsibity to positively respond to the Gospel. Nor am I calling God evil. I'm calling him the exact opposite of evil. I'm calling him so sovereign and so in control and so good that we don't even realize it. I'm calling our inherited sinful nature foreordained by God so that he could show his creation just how good he is. After all, that's why God chose to save humanity. To display his goodness and for his glory. I mean just think about it. If God wasn't in control of humanity there would be SO much more Chaos than there is right now. The days of Noah are living proof to just how fallen mankind really is and God said, before time as we know it ends the world is going to be EXACTLY as it was in the days of Noah. And we're starting to see it, babies being murdered by the millions, homosexuals being allowed to marry and mate all in the name of "love"? Wake up! Quit calling evil good and quit calling God evil. God is more holy than any of our feeble tiny minds could EVER comprehend. God is in control it does NOT make us robots it makes us humans created by God and as humans our natural inclination is to do evil. We do what our father the devil desires. Only God can regenerate the hearts of mankind to accept him and to desire to be Holy and keep his commands. By ourselves we will only sin and sin and sin with no end in sight. We would all be like Hitler and the evil men of history if God had no control over our lives. Because the unregenerate heart desires evil it lives for evil and it will only DO evil.


Anyway, I apologize for making my case so long. If you want the TLDR of the topic it's the question "if mankind really is free, how can God be sovereign over all things?"

If you think there is a contradiction. Go ahead and display the two contradictory propositions at Contradiction: Omnipotent, Omniscient vs Freewill

 

[Mark Quayle]

If I buy a red apple instead of a green apple at the store today, God directed me to make that choice.

Whether he directed you to make that choice, he caused you, one way or another, to make that choice.

 

[fhansen]

I know there has been a billion topics on this subject including one made by me several months ago but they're all inactive now and I don't want to resurrect old topics. My question is a common one. It is this, if mankind is really free to decide whatever they want, how can God be sovereign? Don't forget, the Bible says that God is sovereign over ALL things. If our will is somehow exempt from this how can God still be sovereign over all things? Including being sovereign over our human nature. Surely if we were sovereign our sin would be a free will choice and not something that we do without even thinking. So if we truly had free will those of us who are true Christians would never sin against God again. Think about it, everytime we sin the Holy Spirit convicts us and makes us feel dead inside. If we had freewill and chose according to our desires every true child of God would NEVER sin again because we don't want to sin. We want to obey God and his commands. We want to follow God's will for our lives so if we had free will, if sin were really a choice what do you think Christians would chose?

I mean, think of the story of Joseph and his brothers. When his brothers repented what did Joseph say to them? You meant sin for evil buy God meant it for good. Or the story of Pharoah. The Bible says that God hardened his heart so that Pharoah wouldn't let Moses or the Israelites go, Did Pharoah have free will? Of course not or the Bible wouldn't have said that Pharoah was created for destruction and that God hardened his heart on purpose.


i mean, examine the animals or fish. Do they have a free will? Or does God declare what they do and don't do? What about DNA, atoms, the universe, or planets? Do they have the freedom to act as they want or does God determine what they do? It's ludicrous to suggest that these things have the ability to choose whatever they want or nothing that God created would be subject to or obey him. Think about it, if planets moved as they freely wanted than they could just freely crash into the Earth and kill everything living on the planet. God has to be sovereign over space or we would all die. If DNA did whatever it wanted to how could we survive? If atoms ran amok there would be massive nuclear explosions everywhere, Chaos. Yet, somehow humanity is the one exemption? So God is sovereign over all things but not humans because humans can run amok and do horrible things?

But answer me this. What if the fall was foreordained by God? Let's say Adam and Eve's rebellion against God was exactly what God wanted. Why would that be a bad thing? Our salvation was also ordained by God and what if like Joseph's brothers Adam and Eve meant their sin to be evil but God wanted it for the good of the world?

I am not demeaning man's responsibility in its falleness or mankinds responsibity to positively respond to the Gospel. Nor am I calling God evil. I'm calling him the exact opposite of evil. I'm calling him so sovereign and so in control and so good that we don't even realize it. I'm calling our inherited sinful nature foreordained by God so that he could show his creation just how good he is. After all, that's why God chose to save humanity. To display his goodness and for his glory. I mean just think about it. If God wasn't in control of humanity there would be SO much more Chaos than there is right now. The days of Noah are living proof to just how fallen mankind really is and God said, before time as we know it ends the world is going to be EXACTLY as it was in the days of Noah. And we're starting to see it, babies being murdered by the millions, homosexuals being allowed to marry and mate all in the name of "love"? Wake up! Quit calling evil good and quit calling God evil. God is more holy than any of our feeble tiny minds could EVER comprehend. God is in control it does NOT make us robots it makes us humans created by God and as humans our natural inclination is to do evil. We do what our father the devil desires. Only God can regenerate the hearts of mankind to accept him and to desire to be Holy and keep his commands. By ourselves we will only sin and sin and sin with no end in sight. We would all be like Hitler and the evil men of history if God had no control over our lives. Because the unregenerate heart desires evil it lives for evil and it will only DO evil.


Anyway, I apologize for making my case so long. If you want the TLDR of the topic it's the question "if mankind really is free, how can God be sovereign over all things?"

God can sovereignly deem that man should have free will. He's willing to endure the evil that results from the abuse of that freedom for a time, for His purposes, after which evil will no longer be allowed to coexist with good.

And the only sane reason for allowing evil is so that we might come to hate and shun and choose good over evil instead. Freely, with the help of His grace.