Justification and Sanctification ?

[Clare73]

This is only true if they are Hyper Grace OSAS Christians (i.e., they say they can live in blatant gross sins as a way of life and still be saved by a belief alone in Jesus). Not all OSAS believers are Hyper Grace, though. I know this because I have talked with both in person and online. So this is not the real difference between POTS and OSAS. The only real difference (Which does not change the heart of what POTS and OSAS teaches in that they each teach you are eternally secure) is…

#1. OSASers (Non-Calvinists) believe ”faith” is the necessary component that results in one being eternally secure.​

​

#2. POTS believers (Calvinists) hold to the view that it is “Election/Regeneration“ that is the necessary component that results in one being eternally secure.​

Both believe in what they think are OSAS verses (Which in reality, such verses are not actually teaching OSAS).
Both believe in a conversion experience, faith, and works (in being faithful to Him) is evidence that one is eternally secure.
But they also both teach that one can sin and still be saved on some smaller level based on 1 John 1:8. So it’s not really holy living they are promoting as a part of being eternally secure (even though they may say that another point).

Now, according to the truth of the Bible: A believer can have security in Christ, but it is conditional. It is only IF they stay faithful to Him and follow His voice (Whereby they cannot be snatched out His hand). We are told to draw near to God and He will draw near to us.

You've got the cart before the horse.

Because they are God's own he enables them to be faithful, which is why they persevere.

 

[ladodgers6]

@ladodgers6

You believe in Election/Regeneration as the means of salvation.

But the Bible teaches that the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes.

Romans 1:16
”For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”

Amen! When have I deny this? So, is the Holy Spirit not part of means of Salvation?

You don’t believe this.

You make false accusations against me, why? Please provide any post of mine, where I deny this? If not, you should make amends.

I do. That is why Calvinism is false.
Granted, there are tons of verses that refute Calvinism, but generally those who believe as you do are not willing to change because they prefer God to be in the Calvinistic sense (Which is wrong).

Highlighter, you make ambiguous comments against Calvinism without a single shred of evidence to back it up. I thought you and I were going to have an in-depth discussion of these topics?

So, I will ask again, in your position does Prevenient Grace come prior to faith?

 

[ladodgers6]

1 John 1:9 means what it says. I am sorry you don’t believe it.
It says IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
You dont’ believe 1 John 1:9 in that God forgives a person of their sin when they confess it. Many Calvinists believe like John Piper who says he still does his sins and yet those sins are not on him because he does not have them anymore. They think they can sin and still be saved.

Okay, so I'll ask you, do you confess all your sins you commit on a daily basis? Or do you generalize it under an umbrella? Isn't bearing false witness a sin? Is falsely accusing someone, a sin? Are you going to confess these sins to God?

But Jesus warned us of this false belief in Matthew 7:22-23, John 8:34-35, Matthew 13:41-42.

Again bearing false witness about me, without evidence. You don't know me, but you judge me as if you explicitly know I am guilty. Sorry you disappoint you, but you couldn't be further from the truth! You know one thing I can't understand. We are discussing God's word. And this is the place where must remain, humble, loving, understanding, and not judge, for you will be judged, right? I haven't insult you and ridiculed you in any way, but have only shared with you and asked for clarification on your views, and why I am not an Arminian anymore.

Also see Jude 1 about those believers who turned God’s grace into a license for immorality.

Most of Christianity today believes they can sin and not die (Which is the SAME LIE the devil gave to Eve in the garden)!!!

The majority of Christianity’s view on how they can sin and not die is expressed the same way by Hitler in this video:

I will not address your false allegations any further. I will only engage people who want to have a cordial and civil discussion.

Good day to you, Sir!

 

[ladodgers6]

Actually, you have your poles reversed. Calvinism is more likened to liberalism because it seeks to take a liberal interpretation upon all the free will verses in the Bible.

Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take.

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

You don’t believe the gospel is how you get saved, either.
You believe Election/Regeneration is how you get saved.

Paul does not call it the gospel of your salvation for nothing in the Scriptures.
But I am sure you will just liberalize this text below in the Bible so as to defend Calvinism (because that is the bent mindset you have about God).

Ephesians 1:13
”In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

Again, your gospel is not 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. While you may not call Election/Regeneration the gospel, your gospel is technically Election/Regeneration (Whether you realize that fact or not).

Good day, Sir. I am politely removing myself from our conversation.

By Grace Alone in Christ Alone!

 

[timothyu]

I don’t get that impression when I read the Bible. God seems to appear to hold us more accountable

I'm just saying God is more interested in cause (the elohim) than treating the symptoms which in our case he leaves up to us by choice which path to follow, Him or our ways learned from rebellious elohim..

 

[Dah'veed]

1) In Christ (Abraham's seed), all the nations of the earth shall be blessed.

2) The blessing of Abraham is the Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14, Eph 1:13, Ac 2:33, Ac 2:39) and righteousness from God through faith in Jesus Christ (Ro 4:1-5, Ro 4:9-11).

3) It is only by being of (in) Christ; i.e., through faith in his person and atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25), who is the seed of Abraham, that we are the spiritual seed of Abraham, and heirs according to the promise (of an everlasting possession; i.e., heavenly inheritance).

A new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you; 1 John 2:8
You know that everyone who practices righteousness [everyone who is justified in God’s sight] has been born of Him. 1 John 2:28-29
You are born of God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 1 John 4:4

 

[ladodgers6]

Good luck with refuting a literal 1000 years

Question for you, Jesus is not only a Savior, but Lord, correct? So, how is that not reigning right now?

And what’s new about this stage in God’s reign over the nations is, first, that before the incarnation, there never was a God-man to sit at God’s right hand to rule the nations, whereas now, the eternal Son of God is clothed with humanity, and according to Acts 2:36, “Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

So, as Jesus sends out his disciples and says, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me” (Matthew 28:18), he has rule as the God-man at the right hand of God now and forever. That wasn’t always the case; that’s new. All of that providential rule of stage one is vested now in the incarnate Son of God. Jesus says in Luke 10:22, “All things have been handed over to me by my Father.” Or John 5:22, “The Father . . . has given all judgment to the Son.”

 

[Clare73]

You've got the cart before the horse.

Because they are God's own he enables them to be faithful, which is why they persevere.

Paul says, be not deceived, the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Relevance?

Attached in context, Paul lists those who do certain sins.

So no. It’s not just a belief alone in Jesus that will save a person.

Yes, we are first saved initially by a faith alone (belief alone)

This differs from my quote above, how?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Relevance?


This differs from my quote above, how?

You take being a slave to unitentional sin this side of Heaven as being covered by the blood or by eternal security in POTS. You use 1 John 1:8 for this justification. But the context does not support the sin and still be saved interpretation on 1 John 1:8. So when I say that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God, I am referring to even those who use 1 John 1:8 as an excuse to sin on some level. I know. You don’t consider that to be relevant but I do because Adam was warned that if he ate of the wrong tree, he would die. But Adam and Eve did not drop dead physically when they ate of the wrong tree. They died spiritually that day and it was ONLY ONE sin. They did not need to practice sin or live in sin to be separated from God that day. The devil convinced Eve of the lie that they would disobey God and not die. This same lie is being pushed today by the devil. How you can not see this is beyond me.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Why do I have to defend wrong understanding of the Biblical POTS?

I am merely showing that Calvinists as a whole tend to believe one can sin and still be saved on some level. You do with 1 John 1:8.
Do you believe a Christian is saved even before they are able to confess of their sins according to 1 John 1:9? If so, then why does 1 John 1:9 say that if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins? How can God forgive us our sins by confessing sin if one is forgiven before they even confess?

 

[ladodgers6]

Relevance?

This differs from my quote above, how?

They will insist that our final justification will be grounded in our merits of works. Which is not what Paul is preaching at all in respect to Justification of the ungodly. Paul doesn't say the godly, but the ungodly who are in need of a doctor to heal them.

So, now Christ is replaced by them trying to be justified through the flesh, which places the yoke of the law back on them. This is precisely what Paul warned the Galatians about! They think Christ left something undone for us to finish. They have now turned the Gospel into Law, and the Law into Gospel. Now knowing that the good news is that Christ is our righteousness, and not only that, but his sanctification is also ours, free, a gift, received through Faith Alone apart form works!

"Holiness is a gift; otherwise we shall never have it. But we receive it now, at once, through justifying faith in Christ.

For this reason, moral virtue (holiness, the image of God) is one seamless garment, which cannot be reached and obtained in piecemeal fashion. "

---Bavinck​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You've got the cart before the horse.

Because they are God's own he enables them to be faithful, which is why they persevere.

So then why would Scripture say to repent and be converted in Acts 3:19?
To be converted means to be regenerated.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Question for you, Jesus is not only a Savior, but Lord, correct? So, how is that not reigning right now?

And what’s new about this stage in God’s reign over the nations is, first, that before the incarnation, there never was a God-man to sit at God’s right hand to rule the nations, whereas now, the eternal Son of God is clothed with humanity, and according to Acts 2:36, “Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

So, as Jesus sends out his disciples and says, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me” (Matthew 28:18), he has rule as the God-man at the right hand of God now and forever. That wasn’t always the case; that’s new. All of that providential rule of stage one is vested now in the incarnate Son of God. Jesus says in Luke 10:22, “All things have been handed over to me by my Father.” Or John 5:22, “The Father . . . has given all judgment to the Son.”

Are you saying His enemies have already been made His footstool and it’s not in the future ?

 

[ladodgers6]

So then why would Scripture say to repent and be converted in Acts 3:19?
To be converted means to be regenerated.

Before I reply to you. Can we have a cordial and civil conversation? Stop the name calling and false accusations, can you do this, if not, then, please leave me alone, thanks.

 

[ladodgers6]

Are you saying His enemies have already been made His footstool and it’s not in the future ?

Yes and no.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

They will insist that our final justification will be grounded in our merits of works. Which is not what Paul is preaching at all in respect to Justification of the ungodly. Paul doesn't say the godly, but the ungodly who are in need of a doctor to heal them.

So, now Christ is replace by them trying to be justified through the flesh, which places the yoke of the law back on them. This is precisely what Paul warned the Galatians about! They think Christ left something undone for us to finish. They have now turned the Gospel into Law, and the Law into Gospel. Now knowing that the good news is that Christ is our righteousness, and not only that, but his sanctification is also ours, free, a gift, received through Faith Alone apart form works!

"Holiness is a gift; otherwise we shall never have it. But we receive it now, at once, through justifying faith in Christ.

For this reason, moral virtue (holiness, the image of God) is one seamless garment, which cannot be reached and obtained in piecemeal fashion. "

---Bavinck​

While it is true that believing is a work of God (John 6:29), it does not mean one is forced against their will to believe.

Matthew 23:37 says,

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me” (NLT).​

As we can see from this verse above, Jesus wanted to gather the inhabitants of Jerusalem but they would not let Jesus to do so. But if irresistible grace was true, Jesus could just snap His fingers and gather the inhabtants of Jerusalem (Seeing He is God).

Hebrews 11 talks about without faith it is impossible to please God. Jesus was amazed at the centurions’ great faith. Why would Jesus marvel at his faith if it was something God the Father did? While God does help to illuminate the truth of the faith to men, we have free will to either accept His truth or not. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says the wicked perish because THEY received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. There is no MIGHT be saved in Calvinism. God does not gift you faith. In Ephesians 2:8-9, it says it is the GIFT (singular) of God, and not how God’s grace through faith are the gifts of God (plural). God does not gift faith to a person. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). You also fail to understand that those who are unfruitful will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So yes. You need to be fruitful (have works) to enter the Kingdom. To preach against this is to suggest one does not need any fruit or works so as to enter the Kingdom of God.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Yes and no.

Then He is not ruling yet.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Before I reply to you. Can we have a cordial and civil conversation? Stop the name calling and false accusations, can you do this, if not, then, please leave me alone, thanks.

Post #672 was written to Claire and not you, my friend. But if you believe I falsely accused you of something you did not believe in, then please bring that up here and now and I will apologize. I do not like to misrepresent what people believe. Granted, that does not mean I am not correct on attacking the general belief of Calvinists, though. So if I attack Calvinism, it may not always fit your version of Calvinism. Please keep that in mind.

As for name calling: Well, I don’t believe I attacked you personally. But I do not like the belief of Calvinism (Which I see as false). If you believe I have slandered you personally (calling you names personally then please show me where I did that, and I will apologize).

 

[Clare73]

You take being a slave to unitentional sin this side of Heaven as being covered by the blood or by eternal security in POTS.

The born again are not slaves to sin, and the born again are not sinless.

You use 1 John 1:8 for this justification. But the context does not support the sin and still be saved interpretation on 1 John 1:8. So when I say that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God, I am referring to even those who use 1 John 1:8 as an excuse to sin on some level.

Looks like you got a choice to make: total sinlessness or eternal death.

I'm born again and I can't do total sinlessness, so my only choice would be eternal death.
It's good to know that you, however, can choose to be sinless.

Thank God, I don't have to make that choice.

I know. You don’t consider that to be relevant but I do because Adam was warned that if he ate of the wrong tree, he would die. But Adam and Eve did not drop dead physically when they ate of the wrong tree. They died spiritually that day and it was ONLY ONE sin.

"Dying (spiritually), you shall die (physically)." (Ge 2:17)

God distinguishes between "high-handed rebellion;" i.e., full knowledge and full consent (Nu 15:30), and unintentional sin (Lev 4:13-14).
Adam's sin was high-handed rebellion. . .ONLY ONE shot at rebellion is all you get.

They did not need to practice sin or live in sin to be separated from God that day. The devil convinced Eve of the lie that they would disobey God and not die. This same lie is being pushed today by the devil. How you can not see this is beyond me.

Because you are uninformed regarding God's treatment of unintentional sin vs. high-handed rebellion.

 

[Clare73]

I am merely showing that Calvinists as a whole tend to believe one can sin and still be saved on some level. You do with 1 John 1:8.
Do you believe a Christian is saved even before they are able to confess of their sins according to 1 John 1:9? If so, then why does 1 John 1:9 say that if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins? How can God forgive us our sins by confessing sin if one is forgiven before they even confess?

Why are you asking me to defend the wrong doctrine of others?

POTS does not mean that God does not forgive sin after the new birth (1 Jn 1:8-10).