Justification and Sanctification ?

[Jesus is YHWH]

Sure thing. And it’s coming from both sides.

@Bible Highlighter is no slouch and one who has done his due diligence and homework . There are things we disagree on but they are not salvific . I don’t sweat those small things. On the essentials he is as solid as they get.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Indeed (you're preaching to the choir) . .and I really like your distinction, it's the perfect Biblical response.

I find it so hard to believe that anyone would seriously teach that sin is ok.

This is only true if they are Hyper Grace OSAS Christians (i.e., they say they can live in blatant gross sins as a way of life and still be saved by a belief alone in Jesus). Not all OSAS believers are Hyper Grace, though. I know this because I have talked with both in person and online. So this is not the real difference between POTS and OSAS. The only real difference (Which does not change the heart of what POTS and OSAS teaches in that they each teach you are eternally secure) is…

#1. OSASers (Non-Calvinists) believe ”faith” is the necessary component that results in one being eternally secure.​

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#2. POTS believers (Calvinists) hold to the view that it is “Election/Regeneration“ that is the necessary component that results in one being eternally secure.​

Both believe in what they think are OSAS verses (Which in reality, such verses are not actually teaching OSAS).
Both believe in a conversion experience, faith, and works (in being faithful to Him) is evidence that one is eternally secure.
But they also both teach that one can sin and still be saved on some smaller level based on 1 John 1:8. So it’s not really holy living they are promoting as a part of being eternally secure (even though they may say that another point).

Now, according to the truth of the Bible: A believer can have security in Christ, but it is conditional. It is only IF they stay faithful to Him and follow His voice (Whereby they cannot be snatched out His hand). We are told to draw near to God and He will draw near to us.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Bible Highlighter is no slouch and one who has done his due diligence and homework . There are things we disagree on but they are not salvific . I don’t sweat those small things. On the essentials he is as solid as they get.

May the Lord Jesus Christ get all the glory for any good knowledge He has shown me and for any good done in my life, brother.
Praise be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

May God bless you and your family.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

May the Lord Jesus Christ get all the glory for any good knowledge He has shown me and for any good done in my life, brother.
Praise be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

May God bless you and your family.

The same with you my friend

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Indeed (you're preaching to the choir) . .and I really like your distinction, it's the perfect Biblical response.

I find it so hard to believe that anyone would seriously teach that sin is ok.

Trust me many think the sin issue is ok and just brush it off and use Paul in Romans 7 as their excuse or the out of context “ chief of sinners” as a justification for sin. IMHO in both cases Paul is describing his past life under the law.

 

[Clare73]

Just giving a quick quib answer with no real substance does not help to explain what you are talking about. Just holding all the cards does not mean you are right. Please explain how you believe OSAS is different than POTS. If you don’t explain it then it defeats the purpose of having any discussion on this matter to begin with.

It seems that OSAS is being abused and used to mean that the saved do not have to deal with sin and walk in obedience. . .because OSAS.
The abuse of OSAS; i.e., one does not have to deal with sin and walk in obedience is in no way related to POTS.

POTS is the Holy Spirit enabling the elect to give diligence to making their calling and election sure so that they do not apostasize, they are kept by the power of God through faith until the coming salvation; i.e., resurrection (1 Pe 1:5) who works in them both to will and to do (Php 2:13). POTS in no way means one does not have to deal with sin and walk in obedience.

But no one is sinless until glory because no one is perfect. We all fall short of the mark somewhere.
And that is where 1 Jn 1:8-10 comes in.

But you basically said to Claire that holiness was the difference in #628 (Which I already guessed that is what you were thinking because this is not my first rodeo in these kinds of discussions).

What is it you do not understand?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

It seems that OSAS is being abused and used to mean that the saved do not have to deal with sin and walk in obedience. . .because OSAS.
The abuse of OSAS; i.e., one does not have to deal with sin and walk in obedience is in no way related to POTS.

POTS is the Holy Spirit enabling the elect to give diligence to making their calling and election sure so that they do not apostasize, they are kept by the power of God through faith until the coming salvation; i.e., resurrection (1 Pe 1:5) who works in them both to will and to do (Php 2:13). POTS in no way means one does not have to deal with sin and walk in obedience.

But no one is sinless until glory because no one is perfect. We all fall short of the mark somewhere.
And that is where 1 Jn 1:8-10 comes in.

What is it you do not understand?

This will be a good discussion brother.

 

[Foghorn]

Thank you for telling me to search online. There does appear to be one small minor difference between POTS and OSAS but it is not enough to change the core heart of each of these beliefs in what they are teaching (Which is in the fact that they are both teaching you are eternally secure and sin ultimately does not separate you from God).

POTS and OSAS have different beliefs on what they are trusting in to be eternally secure. While they both can trust in their continued faith and works as evidence they are saved or eternally secure, they each have different foundations (that does not change the core teaching of what POTS and OSAS is). With POTS, you are trusting that you were Elect/Regenerated (along with eternal security verses) to be eternally secure. By contrast, OSAS is saying you are trusting only those verses you think are teaching eternal security and that it is by faith you are eternally secure. But both the false teachings of POTS and OSAS are teaching you are eternally secure. Both of POTS and OSAS in my experience teach you can also interpret 1 John 1:8 as a banner flag to sin on some level, as well. They are each are saying you cannot fall away from God. That is the heart of each of these teachings are really about. So the difference is not really enough to change the core concept of what POTS and OSAS are teaching at the heart (Which I believe is a license to sin on some level).

The only difference I really see is that OSASers believe it is “faith” that the key component as a part of being eternally secure, and POTS folks believe it is “Election/Regeneration” to be eternally secure, but they are BOTH each teaching you are eternally secure and cannot fall away from the faith. Both believe in eternal security verses. Both believe faith and works is to show a true faith. They both teach that if a believer stops believing and or living fruitful, you were never saved to begin with. They both teach you can sin and still be saved on some level (even though they will contradict themselves and say that you must live holy for eternal security to be true).

Okay, if that is what you got out of it, great. Study and education is good.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Okay, if that is what you got out of it, great. Study and education is good.

Maybe PSA is needed and I’ll tag a bunch of members in the thread so we can flush out the true gospel.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It seems that OSAS is being abused and used to mean that the saved do not have to deal with sin and walk in obedience. . .because OSAS.
The abuse of OSAS; i.e., one does not have to deal with sin and walk in obedience is in no way related to POTS.

POTS is the Holy Spirit enabling the elect to give diligence to making their calling and election sure so that they do not apostasize, they are kept by the power of God through faith until the coming salvation; i.e., resurrection (1 Pe 1:5) who works in them both to will and to do (Php 2:13). POTS in no way means one does not have to deal with sin and walk in obedience.

But no one is sinless until glory because no one is perfect. We all fall short of the mark somewhere.
And that is where 1 Jn 1:8-10 comes in.

What is it you do not understand?

I understand that this is what you believe, but I have a different experience and understanding on the Scriptures.
The problem is that you have men like MacArthur saying that suicide does not lead to spiritual death. The problem is that some sins can be justified and its okay with God. This is wrong. Even Gotquestions (a 4 point Calvinist website) states:

“Christians are forgiven no matter how many times they sin, but at the same time Christians should live a progressively more holy life as they grow closer to Christ. We should have serious doubts about a person who claims to be a believer yet lives a life that says otherwise. Yes, a true Christian who falls back into sin is still saved, but at the same time a person who lives a life controlled by sin is not truly a Christian.” ~ Gotquestions.​

Source:

Is a backsliding Christian still saved? | GotQuestions.org

Is a backsliding / backslidden Christian still saved? How far can a true Christian backslide?

www.gotquestions.org

This article is wrong because it is teaching a contradictory message. On the one hand they are saying that they should doubt a Christian who lives a life that shows they are living contrary to growing closer to Christ, and yet on the other hand they say backslidden believer is still saved. Meaning, they are saying that the prodigal son was still saved while he was living it up with prostitutes in Luke 15. This is a license to sin. If one believes they can sin and still be saved sometimes, then they can sin and still be saved all the time. So their belief perfectly describes the majority of Christianity today (Which is contradictory). They preach a double message.

 

[Foghorn]

Maybe PSA is needed and I’ll tag a bunch of members in the thread so we can flush out the true gospel.

PSA? That's interesting You would bring that up. Do I know you?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

PSA? That's interesting You would bring that up. Do I know you?

Only if you are Carbon

 

[Foghorn]

Only if you are Carbon

Carbon? And how then would I know you?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Carbon? And how then would I know you?

Wake up and smell the ☕️ coffee

 

[Foghorn]

Wake up and smell the ☕️ coffee

Hmmmm. I don't think you know me.

 

[Clare73]

I understand that this is what you believe, but I have a different experience and understanding on the Scriptures.
The problem is that you have men like MacArthur saying that suicide does not lead to spiritual death. The problem is that some sins can be justified and its okay with God. This is wrong.

Why do I have to defend wrong understanding of the Biblical POTS?

POTS is the Holy Spirit enabling the elect to give diligence to making their calling and election sure so that they do not apostasize, they are kept by the power of God through faith until the coming salvation; i.e., resurrection (1 Pe 1:5) who works in them both to will and to do (Php 2:13). POTS in no way means one does not have to deal with sin and walk in obedience.

But no one is sinless until glory because no one is perfect. We all fall short of the mark somewhere.
And that is where 1 Jn 1:8-10 comes in.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Hmmmm.

An Artisan coffee roaster .

Hmmmm

 

[Foghorn]

Why do I have to defend wrong understanding of the Biblical POTS?

POTS is the Holy Spirit enabling the elect to give diligence to making their calling and election sure so that they do not apostasize, they are kept by the power of God through faith until the coming salvation; i.e., resurrection (1 Pe 1:5) who works in them both to will and to do (Php 2:13). POTS in no way means one does not have to deal with sin and walk in obedience.

But no one is sinless until glory because no one is perfect. We all fall short of the mark somewhere.
And that is where 1 Jn 1:8-10 comes in.

Amen!

 

[Foghorn]

An Artisan coffee roaster .

Hmmmm

You sound familiar. But your probably not going to tell me who you are because, well who knows.

 

[ladodgers6]

@ladodgers6

The reason why Calvinism is false because it makes Election/Regeneration the means of salvation instead of believing the gospel of salvation. In Calvinism: Believing the gospel is just a peripheral or side effect of being elected/regenerated. Actually, while High Calvinism is false, it is actually more consistent with its belief system than Classical Calvinism. If one is truly Elect or regenerated, then God will make it possible for them to get the necessary info. on the gospel. There would be no need to really preach the gospel. Yet, the Bible teaches we are saved by receiving the gospel.

So, you are saying that in your view, salvation comes from a random & chaotic place? In your view there is no intelligent design, but some potential possibility of salvation in a fallen world? Your Arminian position has a lofty view of man, which is the problem. But I will admit this is the default setting for Pelagian/Semi-Pelagian position; hard wired to always look inward; being curved inward by sin.

So, how can a sinners dead in sin, separated by God, under the curse of sin, who is hostile toward God, even an enemy of God. Save himself or even desire to, when all the dead sinner wants or desires is to follow the prince of air, and satisfy the passions of the mind and flesh. How does this fallen corrupted disposition change? You believe Prevenient Grace does it, correct? And in the Classical Arminian view Prevenient Grace precedes Faith, right?

But I will refer to Scripture.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

John 8:47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

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1 Corinthians 15:-4
”Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”

Amen! I love Corinthians, okay so how does this prove your case? I love the part, "how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriputures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scripture; God word, His promise, His Covenant! Only his sheep will receive it, scripture is clear on this point. John 8:47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

In the Reformed Faith we use scripture to interpret scripture, not conjecture.
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1 Corinthians 1:21
”For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.”

God saves them that BELIEVE.
God does not save them that don’t believe yet.
You say that they are saved by a regeneration that proceeds before they even believe.
But my Bible says that are saved by believing.

A person is saved by receiving the gospel.

Agreed, who receives it, is the question. John 8 depicts who are the ones who will hear his voice and follow him. And in John 8 it also depicts those who do not believe, correct? They do not believe because they are not among his sheep. This passage doesn't say because you don't believe you are among my sheep, but contrary it says, they don't believe "BECAUSE" you are NOT among my sheep. I will also admit when I was an Arminian this was a hard pill to swallow for me. I am not looking to win an argument or save face, I could care less about that, I only want the truth.​

2 Corinthians 4:3-4
“But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”

The gospel is believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day.
The gospel at the heart is believing in Jesus.

Sorry but this passage doesn't help your cause. But I will quote the rest of passages.

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
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Here Paul highlights the regenerating power of God shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge!

Know what you believe and why you believe it.