Justification and Sanctification ?

[AbbaLove]

I believe Paul is speaking from his new life in Christ. He is a Christian

With respect to Romans 7 it is NOT likely that Paul is referring to himself as: "chief, worst, foremost, first" among sinners (1 Timothy 1:17) ... as a new "born again" new (regenerative) creation cleansed by the shed blood of Christ (John 3:5, Titus 3:5).

Instead Paul is referring to the false religiosity before his "born again" birth as a new creation in Christ Jesus. In Romans 7 Paul was ever mindful of his sinfulness having vehemently persecuted the followers of the WAY. He is admitting (in Romans 7) the depth of his sin before his salvation transformation by using the word ... "chief, worst, foremost, first" (as translated into English). As such his only recourse is obedience to the Holy Spirit. Thankfully there were no theologians at that time that were able to persuade Paul that it was impossible to stop sinning, while still living a holy life of faithful obedience.

The reason so many Christians believe it's not possible to stop sinning is because they know of even Pastors that have been unfaithful. Seminaries are at fault for intentionally or unintentionally misinterpreting Romans 7 that it's impossible for a Christian not to sin. That is a lie of the enemy.

Why would a new born again Christian that has repented not stop sinning? Only because of so many other Christians including Pastors that tell immature christians (of which there are many) that it's impossible to stop sinning.

Jesus told the man to "Stop sinning or something worse may happen" and to the woman "Go and stop sinning". This was even before the sanctification of the shed blood of the Lamb of God at Calvary.

 

[setst777]

Good Day, Setst

Never said that verse 39 is a doctrinal statement so it is a moot point.

No, it's not a moot point because you used verse 39 to make that very point.

I love the warning passages they server 2 functions in my life. They keep my dependent on the mediator of the NC also gives me great love and respect for my past school master the law even know I have set it aside.

The other a little more obscure it reminds me to morn for those who are not saved even though they think they are.

Those Passages were written to Christians as a warning.

I disagree I believe Jesus was quite clear in the issue, and the writer of the Hebrews in explaining the finality NC to Jews. With out getting too deep into the short falls of the OC there are NT Scholar that do better than I Ever could ( DA Carson NT use of the OT and he did a series on Hebrews that is on youtube) and Schreiner work on Hebrews or the magnum work from John Owen if you are feeling very energetic.

I just stick with God's Word, what it actually states in context is what it means. The scholars differ in view one from another.

As for the rest of your response regarding Hebrews 7, not sure what that pertains to.

 

[Clare73]

There will be only one Armageddon when all the nations are gathered against Israel. I did quote you some of those Passages and listed others, which specifically concerns Israel. I will believe the Scriptures.

"Scriptures" are not to be confused with one's personal interpretation of the prophetic riddles in those Scriptures.

The NT Scriptures do not allow for a future "millennial" kingdom

 

[BBAS 64]

No, it's not a moot point because you used verse 39 to make that very point.

Good Day,

Not sure I did if you would be so kind

Those Passages were written to Christians as a warning.

Yes indeed and they are very effective

I just stick with God's Word, what it actually states in context is what it means. The scholars differ in view one from another.

As for the rest of your response regarding Hebrews 7, not sure what that pertains to.

We have been given teacher by God for a very good reason Eph 4, but if you rather drink your own Kool-aide be my guest.

I am sorry that you are not sure.

This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant. The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

He priest hood is forever because of that he is able to save to the uttermost... the Jews did not have such a priesthood. His intercession never fails therefore we have Peace with God because of Him.

Uttermost:

Thayer Definition:
1) all complete, perfect
2) completely, perfectly, utterly
Part of Speech: adjective

In Him,

Bill

 

[setst777]

"Scriptures" are not to be confused with one's personal interpretation of the prophetic riddles in those Scriptures.

The NT Scriptures do not allow for a future "millennial" kingdom

I agree. When people start spiritualizing all the end time prophecies regarding Israel is when they are using their own interpretations. The Scriptures are not riddles unless the context specifically indicates that what is said is symbolism or parable.

 

[setst777]

Good Day,

Not sure I did if you would be so kind


Yes indeed and they are very effective

We have been given teacher by God for a very good reason Eph 4, but if you rather drink your own Kool-aide be my guest.

I am sorry that you are not sure.

This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant. The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

He priest hood is forever because of that he is able to save to the uttermost... the Jews did not have such a priesthood. His intercession never fails therefore we have Peace with God because of Him.

Uttermost:

Thayer Definition:
1) all complete, perfect
2) completely, perfectly, utterly
Part of Speech: adjective

In Him,

Bill

If you feel that studying God's word in context is drinking one's own Kool-aide be my guest. And you can choose to rely on the scholars that cater to your interpretations.

I know what Hebrews 7 means, but still not sure why you are discussing Hebrews 7. What does that pertain to in our dialogue?

 

[timothyu]

We are to constantly seek God, not overthink everything else including man's religion

 

[ladodgers6]

Just to be clear ... is it your belief that even though instructed by the Holy Spirit that it still wasn't possible for Paul to stop his daily struggle with sin after being born again (1 Peter 1:22-23) ? These words by Jesus suggest it is possible to stop sinning.

Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.” (John 5:14)​

Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” “No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you. Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.” (John 8:10-11)​

Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. (James 4:7)​

It sounds like you believe that Paul was unable to submit himself to God. Is this why you believe he struggled daily with sin?
A Christian that is unable to submit themself to God makes it difficult for them to stop sinning.

As believers we will struggle with sin, the war has started between the Spirit and flesh. Read Luther's preface to his commentary on Romans.

 

[timothyu]

As believers we will struggle with sin, the war has started between the Spirit and flesh.

Yes, simply because we discover ours is not the only will, but God has one too, and it most often runs contrary to ours. Our concern is primarily self where His will for us is we focus on caring for all others and they on us.

 

[Foghorn]

With respect to Romans 7 it is NOT likely that Paul is referring to himself as: "chief, worst, foremost, first" among sinners (1 Timothy 1:17) ... as a new "born again" new (regenerative) creation cleansed by the shed blood of Christ (John 3:5, Titus 3:5).

I'm surprised to hear you say this.
Do you realize the closer you get to God the more you can see how sinful sin is and how Holy God is?
Do you not know we will struggle with sin until we are glorified?

Instead Paul is referring to the false religiosity before his "born again" birth as a new creation in Christ Jesus. In Romans 7 Paul was ever mindful of his sinfulness having vehemently persecuted the followers of the WAY. He is admitting (in Romans 7) the depth of his sin before his salvation transformation by using the word ... "chief, worst, foremost, first" (as translated into English). As such his only recourse is obedience to the Holy Spirit. Thankfully there were no theologians at that time that were able to persuade Paul that it was impossible to stop sinning, while still living a holy life of faithful obedience.

I don't buy that at all. And you have no scripture to support such nonsense.

The reason so many Christians believe it's not possible to stop sinning is because they know of even Pastors that have been unfaithful. Seminaries are at fault for intentionally or unintentionally misinterpreting Romans 7 that it's impossible for a Christian not to sin. That is a lie of the enemy.

Christians know of the fact that we will cay the old man with us throughout life.

Why would a new born again Christian that has repented not stop sinning?

Because we still have the law of sin reining in our bodies, thats why.

Only because of so many other Christians including Pastors that tell immature Christians (of which there are many) that it's impossible to stop sinning.

Don't buy into that nonsense. Wesley taught perfectionism, which is also un biblical.

Jesus told the man to "Stop sinning or something worse may happen" and to the woman "Go and stop sinning". This was even before the sanctification of the shed blood of the Lamb of God at Calvary.

Which passages are you referring to? Maybe we can look at the context?

 

[ladodgers6]

Yes, simply because we discover ours is not the only will, but God has one too, and it most often runs contrary to ours. Our concern is primarily self where His will for us is we focus on caring for all others and they on us.

We must always be grounded in the objective not subjective; extra nos.

 

[timothyu]

We must always be grounded in the objective not subjective

Of course and from original sin of Eve putting her will ahead of God's to all the events in the Bible that follow suit where man does the same, we have objective facts as to that statement, and God sums it up in His prayer where a He states His will will eventually be done in earth as it is in Heaven, not ours.

 

[ladodgers6]

Of course and from original sin of Eve putting her will ahead of God's to all the events in the Bible that follow suit where man does the same, we have objective facts as to that statement, and God sums it up in His prayer where a He states His will will eventually be done in earth as it is in Heaven, not ours.

Well, in the Reformed Faith it's the Imputation of Adam's sin that's in view. Not Eve's sin, because Adam is the representative head of all man kind. As is the second Adam, who comes to restore God's people from their sins. One Man brings sin, death and condemnation, while the other One Man brings righteousness, life, and justification (Romans 5:12-21).

 

[timothyu]

Well, in the Reformed Faith it's the Imputation of Adam's sin that's in view. Not Eve's sin, because Adam is the representative head of all man kind. As is the second Adam, who comes to restore God's people from their sins. One Man brings sin, death and condemnation, while the other One Man brings righteousness, life, and justification (Romans 5:12-21).

True enough but no matter how you cut it with Adam or Eve, both put their will ahead of the will of God, thus creating original sin.

 

[ladodgers6]

True enough but no matter how you cut it with Adam or Eve, both put their will ahead of the will of God, thus creating original sin.

Yeah, I agree with that.

 

[AbbaLove]

(NOTE: reposted in part from p 29) ...


If a Christian says: "I don't have a theology" it could come across to others that their study, understanding, and interpretation of scripture is based solely/entirely on the anointing of the Holy Spirit and NOT on any denominational theology (e.g. Calvinism v Armenism).

biblelesson said:​

I don’t have a theology! And Christians are given the gift of discernment by the Holy Spirit according to the gospel, 1 Corinthians 12:10 KJV​

Isn't the supernatural Gift of discerning/distinquishing of spirits referring more to unbelievers or immature christians that are adversely influence/affected by an unclean spirit(s) such as: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions ... (Galatians 5:19-21).

1 Cor.12:10 ... to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. (ESV)​

1 Cor 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: (KJV)​

1 John 2:27 (AMPC)​

But as for you, the anointing (the sacred appointment, the unction) which you received from Him abides [permanently] in you; [so] then you have no need that anyone should instruct you. But just as His anointing teaches you concerning everything and is true and is no falsehood, so you must abide in (live in, never depart from) Him [being rooted in Him, knit to Him], just as [His anointing] has taught you [to do].​

Thus is it not possible that an anointed Christian would rightly believe the following as not taking the credit as their work, but the work of the Holy Spirit in and through them. The way to know is if other mature Christians acknowledge one's anointing as Peter did with Paul (2 Peter 3:15-17).

In the above, are you quoting the Greek of 2 Pe 3:15-17; i.e.,

"And deem the longsuffering of the Lord of us salvation, as indeed the beloved brother of us Paul according to the wisdom given to him wrote to you,
as also in all (his) epistles speaking in them concerning these things, in which is(are) some things hard to understand which the unlearned and unsteady twist as also the remaining scriptures to the(ir) own of them destruction.
Ye, therefore, beloved, knowing before guard lest being led away (with) by the error of the lawless ye fall from the (your) own stability,"
(2 Pe 3:15-17)

16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.​

The (green) sentence below is how a Christian with a supernatural anointing for faithful interpretation of scripture - (e.g. "Stop sinning or something worse may happen" and "Go and sin no more") - may consider his/her Gifting from the Holy Spirit as a blessing that glorifies God as good counsel for other Christians (proper interpretation of Romans 7) ...

"My only theology is that of the Lord's counsel and guidance. However, i'm still learning and therefore open to the anointed interpretation of scripture. Christians who have the supernatural Gift of Knowledge and Wisdom when it comes to clarifying the interpretation of God's Word "...
(2 Peter 3:15-17).

Wouldn't he - "the beloved brother of us Paul" - also possibly have the supernatural Gift of Knowledge besides Wisdom as well as other supernatural Gifts (1 Corinthians 12:4-11)? The supernatural Gift of Discernment is being able to identify an unclean spirit. Yes, it's possible that a christian cult is influenced by an unclean spirit(s) when it comes to the correct interpretation of scripture. The devil is a master when it comes to misrepresenting the Words(Bible) of the Lord God.

 

[Clare73]

"My only theology is that of the Lord's counsel and guidance. However, i'm still learning and therefore open to the anointed interpretation of scripture. Christians who have the supernatural Gift of Knowledge and Wisdom when it comes to clarifying the interpretation of God's Word "...
(2 Peter 3:15-17).

Help me out here. . .how does this apply to Paul and Peter?

Wouldn't he - "the beloved brother of us Paul" - also possibly have the supernatural Gift of Knowledge besides Wisdom as well as other supernatural Gifts (1 Corinthians 12:4-11)? The supernatural Gift of Discernment is being able to identify an unclean spirit. Yes, it's possible that a christian cult is influenced by an unclean spirit(s) when it comes to the correct interpretation of scripture. The devil is a master when it comes to misrepresenting the Words(Bible) of the Lord God.

 

[ladodgers6]

True enough but no matter how you cut it with Adam or Eve, both put their will ahead of the will of God, thus creating original sin.

For the record, just sharing with you. Original sin occurred by the breaching of the Covenant God made with Adam in the garden. So, strictly speaking it was the One trespass of the One Man's disobedience, that brought sin into the world. (Romans 5:12-21). This is just for you to add to your growing theology.

 

[timothyu]

Disobedience is simply putting our will, or in Adam and Eve's case, their will ahead of the will of God. And because there is no mention of the word covenant in Genesis that falls into the category of theology of man, even if the reasoning is sound.

 

[ladodgers6]

Disobedience is simply putting our will, or in Adam and Eve's case, their will ahead of the will of God. And because there is no mention of the word covenant in Genesis that falls into the category of theology of man, even if the reasoning is sound.

One thing I learned a long time ago, is not to make assumptions, without knowing the facts. So, I will provide you with the facts. Will Scripture suffice? Hosea 6:7 But like Adam they transgressed the covenant; there they dealt faithlessly with me.

Hope this helps?