For whom He foreknew

FutureAndAHope

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Good Day, John

Seeing that my post has to do with the exegesis and application of Romans specifically.

Your point though well taken is moot, as nether Martyr or Irenaeus are directly dealing with the text in question.

In Him,

Bill
They do deal indirectly with it. Justin Martyr mentions the doctrine of Predestination, and how the church does not believe it:

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Irenaeus mentions Romans specifically, seeing the story of Jacob, and Esau, as a picture of two nations, stating one was blessed, the other not so, yet they still have the same God.

Irenaeus Against Heresies. (Cont.)
Book IV. (Cont.)

Chap. XXI. — Abraham’s Faith Was Identical with Ours; This Faith Was Prefigured by the Words and Actions of the Old Patriarchs.

2. The history of Isaac, too, is not without a symbolical character. For in the Epistle to the Romans, the apostle declares: “Moreover, when Rebecca had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac,” she received answer72 from the Word, “that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people are in thy body; and the one people shall overcome the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.” (Rom_9:10-13; Gen_25:23) From which it is evident, that not only [were there] prophecies of the patriarchs, but also that the children brought forth by Rebecca were a prediction of the two nations; and that the one should be indeed the greater, but the other the less; that the one also should be under bondage, but the other free; but [that both should be] of one and the same father. Our God, one and the same, is also their God, who knows hidden things, who knoweth all things before they can come to pass; and for this reason has He said, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” (Rom_9:13; Mal_1:2)

But to see what he actually taught on free will see below:


Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies taught genuine Free Will​

Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

3. For this reason the Lord also said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Mat 5:16) And, “Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares.” (Luk 21:34) And, “Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” (Luk_12:35, Luk_12:36) And again, “The servant who knows his Lord’s will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luk_12:47) And, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luk 6:46) And again, “But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.” (Luk 12:45, Luk 12:46; Mat 24:48, Mat 24:51) All such passages demonstrate the independent will151 of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.

4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” (1Co 6:12) referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” (1Pe 2:16) for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” (Eph 4:25) And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph 4:29) And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” (1Co 6:11) If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)
 
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atpollard

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Predestination makes God not only the cause of good but also of evil. From that scripture we see God is not the cause of man's sin. So men in one sense men are a "duel cause".
It is a darn good thing I was speaking about Romans 8 and what GOD chose to do (aka God’s Plan in scripture) rather than “predestination” (as in the narrow positive-positive schema Double Predestination … as if that were the only theological possibility that anyone ever offered as an alternative to semi-Pelagian Libertine Free Will). :rolleyes:

The question is “Does God have a predetermined plan that originates with God?” (as scripture claims) or “Does God merely REACT to the plans of men?” (as those redefining “foreknew” in Romans 8 are claiming).
 
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FutureAndAHope

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God does have a plan for each of us. But it alters based on our choices. As I talk about here Predestination or Free Will and God's Plan

I have posted a part of the page here. To show what the bible says on the topic.

A case study of David and his sin​


Now let’s do a case study to show that there is not a fixedness to God’s plan i.e. every step was not predetermined at creation (both good and evil), but rather to control evil (God not wanting the evil actions of man to prevail) planed out our steps. Having a plan eliminates anarchy, and allows God to mold a good future for His people.

When speaking of God’s plan with regard to free will, it is like, God presents man with a set of options, choices, (which are God's will) and man determines the way the plan progresses, by his human choice. Yet the next set of choices faced by the person is to a degree determined by God. The level that this plan is managed at is unknown, it may be every micro choice, or just important steps through life.

Yet God is always trying to work these plans to the good. God is not planning out the evil. He is planning out a good plan for every evil a man may choose, with in the limits of man's own power. God has a good plan for us, no matter what choices others may make that negatively affect us. For we know that all things work together for good for those who love God.

David's plan was formed in the womb, not before creation​


Now we know from Psalms 139:15-18 that God had a plan for David before he was born. A Calvinist will say that plan was written down before creation and cannot be altered, that even the sins are determined by God’s plan and foreknowledge. But if you look at the scripture there is no indication that it means before creation. In fact the scripture says the book was written while he was in the womb.

Psalms 139:15-16 (NKJV) My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skilfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me,

Although it really does not matter for the sake of argument when the plan was written, the scripture suggests it was when he was in his mother’s womb. Which would actually make more sense in a free will system where God is placing constraints on man to help reduce the sin that is occurring in the world due to free will choices.

David's sin changed God's positive plan​


But now we wish to look at how our choices determine the outcome of our lives, not God’s frozen will. David was tempted to sin when he saw Bathsheba bathing on her roof top. For a start God did not put her there for David to look at, she would have given into the temptation to sin to be there in the first place. For remember God cannot be tempted to sin neither tempts anyone. But David also was led to sin, and even had Bathsheba’s husband killed to cover up his misdemeanor. But let’s look at God’s response:

2 Samuel 12:7-12 (NKJV) Then Nathan said to David, "You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel: 'I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave you your master's house and your master's wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.' Thus says the LORD: 'Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.' "

Notice in the scripture that when David sinned God changed the plan He had for David. I stress God’s focus was on "why have you despised the commandment of the LORD", and "because you have despised me". We see this idea throughout scripture, that God can and does change His plans based upon man's responses.

Jeremiah 18:10 (NKJV) if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
 
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Carl Emerson

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What I see continually in these discussions is the muddying of the waters by failing to appreciate the difference between God choosing the Elect for salvation before time began on the one hand, and mans limited 'free will' to resist His Spirit in life on the other.

For the Elect His Love is irresistible. This is why His plan of salvation never fails.

However the Elect like Paul battle daily with the war within between the Spirit and the flesh.

For this reason eternal rewards vary among the Elect.

What did Jesus teach us to pray ?

Thy will be done...

Even in Gethsemane Thy will be done...

The mature give Him the right to over-rule their 'free will' - this in fact is always for ones own good.

Man and particularly theologians have made 'free will' sacrosanct. This putting of man at the centre of destiny frustrates His best for them and is self centred.

The Elect cast their crowns...

The Elect prefer His will not their own.

The Kingdom manifests where He reigns and not man.

Salvation according to John does not have the will of man as a cause.

12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
 
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Brightfame52

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futureandhope

Predestination makes God not only the cause of good but also of evil. From that scripture we see God is not the cause of man's sin. So men in one sense men are a "duel cause".

God is the first cause of both Good and Evil. And James doesnt say God isnt the first cause of mans sin. And to say man is a dual cause is exalting man to the status of God, who is the one and only First cause. Who is the first cause of man ? Is man his own first cause ?
 
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childeye 2

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James 1:13-17 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

Predestination makes God not only the cause of good but also of evil. From that scripture we see God is not the cause of man's sin. So men in one sense men are a "duel cause".
But this is so much arguing semantics. Predestination would not make God the source of evil when that evil will only serve to prove Him True and Trustworthy. Therefore, when we qualify a free will through showing an act of sin, free will actually means a state of ignorance that can be persuaded through a vain imagining that what in reality is good, is bad.
 
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Samson2021

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James 1:13-17 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

Predestination makes God not only the cause of good but also of evil. From that scripture we see God is not the cause of man's sin. So men in one sense men are a "duel cause".
Not really addressing Future and Hope, just adding a bit for clarity???

Tell me WHOM did God NOT Foreknow?
As He is the instigator of the entire creation what outcome did He see that most cannot see today? Nor have been able to search out throughout
human history?

Is He not planning on reconciling ALL things to Himself through Christ Jesus?
Is salvation a gift or something earned? If it is earned then you deserve it. But since the Bible tells us plainly that it is a GIFT why do so many
brag about their choice in choosing Jesus? Did not God have to draw, drag and pull you to the Lord Jesus? So who really made the choice??

1 Co 15:22-23 As in Adam ALL die, even so IN Christ SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE. But EVERY MAN in his own order.....................

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as through one mans offense judgement came to ALL men, resulting in condemnation, even so through
ONE MANS RIGHTEOUS ACT THE FREE GIFT CAME TO ALL MEN resulting in JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE.

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn
among MANY brethren. Moreover whom He predestined He CALLED, these He also JUSTIFIED; and WHOM HE JUSTIFIED HE ALSO
GLORIFIED. And again I ask whom did God NOT foreknow????

Which of these 2 men describe you? Are you in any way responsible for the condemnation or the justification? NO, your not ADAM and
your definitely NOT Jesus.

The self righteousness of man is the blinder that will not allow the man to see what the cross has bought for ALL. I counsel thee to anoint
thine eyes with eye salve that thou mayest see!!

Matt 6:33 Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by FAITH of Jesus Christ unto ALL and upon all them that believe for there is no difference:
For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; BEING JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus...

Eph 2:8 FOR BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH, AND THAT (FAITH), <<<NOT OF YOURSELVES>>>, IT (FAITH) IS THE GIFT OF GOD.

Self righteousness is the enemy of your understanding and maturation into a son of God. Be rid of all manner of self righteousness, and SEE!

Phl 3:9 And be found in Him, NOT HAVING MINE OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, which is of the law, but that which is through the FAITH of Christ,
the RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS OF GOD BY FAITH: ( faith being the free gift that allows one to believe unto salvation).

Not all will receive faith to believe in this, the first death, as is apparent by those whom died prior to Jesus coming onto the scene.
The Father knows the order in which He will draw each person to Jesus and fulfill (Every MAN in his own order), Just because you cannot
yet see the awesomeness of the Fathers intentions for ALL do not pretend the Father cannot or will not carry out His intention.
For He works ALL things after the counsel of His own will. And that includes when you will be able to see as well.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Salvation according to John does not have the will of man as a cause.

12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

I don't see how that scripture proves predestination. It says the one who "receives him", accepts Jesus, accepts who He is, and is given the right to become a child of God. It is still not man, through his own goodness, saving himself, it is through God's good offer that life comes.

Let's look at receiving the Holy Spirit. Where Jesus actually talks about it.

Joh 14:15-24 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

What is the order of salvation here?

  1. A man keeps God's word
  2. That man will be loved by the Father
  3. The man receives the manifestation of the Holy Spirit
This comes back to your scripture, that the one who "receives him", is granted salvation. Receiving Jesus is accepting what He says about Himself, accepting that we are sinners, and being willing to leave sin behind.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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What I see continually in these discussions is the muddying of the waters by failing to appreciate the difference between God choosing the Elect for salvation before time began on the one hand, and mans limited 'free will' to resist His Spirit in life on the other.

For the Elect His Love is irresistible. This is why His plan of salvation never fails.

However the Elect like Paul battle daily with the war within between the Spirit and the flesh.

For this reason eternal rewards vary among the Elect.

What did Jesus teach us to pray ?

Thy will be done...

Even in Gethsemane Thy will be done...

The mature give Him the right to over-rule their 'free will' - this in fact is always for ones own good.

Man and particularly theologians have made 'free will' sacrosanct. This putting of man at the centre of destiny frustrates His best for them and is self centred.

The Elect cast their crowns...

The Elect prefer His will not their own.

The Kingdom manifests where He reigns and not man.

Salvation according to John does not have the will of man as a cause.

12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Predestination is an absurd doctrine, it makes man not responsible for his own sin, placing the blame squarely on God:

  • It takes away personal accountability for sin
  • It makes God the author of man’s immorality
  • It draws people away from Christ love, not to Him
The early church stressed that foreknowledge does not mean man has no genuine free will with regard to salvation stating

“because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God.”​


And

“But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions”​


As they say, man would not be accountable for sin if they were fated to do it. But we see it is according to ones deeds that we are judged.


Rom 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.​


Predestination makes God partial, but scripture says there is none. God judges man according to his deeds. Salvation is the only way a man can be delivered from his sin, so how can man be held guilty by God if he was forced into a pathway of damnation. It goes against all reason. It also fundamentally changes the way a person views God’s nature. It makes God a God who just wants to torment people because He delights in it. But really God does not delight in the death of the wicked.

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'​


The Early Church stressed over and over, man is not made wicked by God, they are by their own fault choosing evil.


Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho - Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...​


Iranaeus - Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 39-End

4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God.​



Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.​
Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God.​
Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.​
 
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Carl Emerson

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Predestination is an absurd doctrine, it makes man not responsible for his own sin, placing the blame squarely on God:

Please quote one person on CF who has made this claim...
 
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FutureAndAHope

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So a man ties you up (binds you to sin), and puts you in a car on a railway with a train coming down the track (hell and destruction). Who is responsible the man in the car, or the person who put him there? You may not state it directly, but you are blaming God.
 
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Samson2021

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Romans 11:32 For God hath imprisoned everyone in disobedience, so He could have mercy on everyone.

NKJV For God hath committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

KJV For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.

I believe the Bible itself, according to Paul, makes the claim plainly.

And please keep in mind that Jesus did tell Peter that only the Father could reveal who He really was. It was not within man to recognize
the Son unless the Father were to reveal Him. Flesh and blood hath not revealed this to you.... Matt 16:17 Luke 10:22
 
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Carl Emerson

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So a man ties you up (binds you to sin), and puts you in a car on a railway with a train coming down the track (hell and destruction). Who is responsible the man in the car, or the person who put him there? You may not state it directly, but you are blaming God.

I'm not sure you are being wise accusing me of serious sin before you understand my position.
 
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What I see continually in these discussions is the muddying of the waters by failing to appreciate the difference between God choosing the Elect for salvation before time began on the one hand, and mans limited 'free will' to resist His Spirit in life on the other.
Ok, think about this for a moment. God does not tempt any man to sin. So according to the limited "free will", God is not forcing any man to commit adultery, fornicate etc. Yet there are children born of adultery, and fornication who are saved. If God does not will sin, how could He know these people beforehand?

Does it not make more sense to say as Justin Martyr that foreknowledge does not prove fatalism or predestination?

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be.

Should we believe preachers of the Early Church?
 
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Carl Emerson

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Ok, think about this for a moment. God does not tempt any man to sin. So according to the limited "free will", God is not forcing any man to commit adultery, fornicate etc. Yet there are children born of adultery, and fornication who are saved. If God does not will sin, how could He know these people beforehand?

God is outside of time and sees outcomes before they chronologically occur.

Why should offspring of sinful unions not be Elect ?

He creates those with a heart for Him - think Jacob and Esau...
 
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God is outside of time and sees outcomes before they chronologically occur.

Why should offspring of sinful unions not be Elect ?

He creates those with a heart for Him - think Jacob and Esau...

Maybe it is true that God is outside of time, but I doubt it. For how could God be surprised by man's sin and regret making him?

Gen 6:6-7 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

You said, "Why should offspring of sinful unions not be Elect ?"

Because sin is not planned by God. It is a result of man's will. Anything that is willed by man is unplanned. God could not know or save people in such a situation, He could not have known about them.


You said: "He creates those with a heart for Him - think Jacob and Esau..."

The Early Church did not believe Esau was any less a child of God. They saw the story as a picture of God raising up one nation by His divine decree, and putting down another.

Irenaeus Against Heresies. (Cont.)
Book IV. (Cont.)

Chap. XXI. — Abraham’s Faith Was Identical with Ours; This Faith Was Prefigured by the Words and Actions of the Old Patriarchs.

2. The history of Isaac, too, is not without a symbolical character. For in the Epistle to the Romans, the apostle declares: “Moreover, when Rebecca had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac,” she received answer72 from the Word, “that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people are in thy body; and the one people shall overcome the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.” (Rom_9:10-13; Gen_25:23) From which it is evident, that not only [were there] prophecies of the patriarchs, but also that the children brought forth by Rebecca were a prediction of the two nations; and that the one should be indeed the greater, but the other the less; that the one also should be under bondage, but the other free; but [that both should be] of one and the same father. Our God, one and the same, is also their God, who knows hidden things, who knoweth all things before they can come to pass; and for this reason has He said, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” (Rom_9:13; Mal_1:2)
 
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