For whom He foreknew

[FutureAndAHope]

In order to get some context on

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

I wish to investigate the writings of one of the Earliest Church Fathers (within 150 years of Christ), I have shown in other posts that they believed in genuine free will. But I wish to see how the term “foreknown”, was used.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be.



Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’



We see foreknowledge here is not seen as a predetermined choice by God, to make some wicked, and some righteous, but rather God “knew” some would become unchangeably wicked. Even though “if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God”



Other examples of the words usage are seen below, we see in these examples it is used in the following way “[those] foreknown were to believe in Him” and “the people foreknown to believe in Him were fore-known to pursue diligently the fear of the Lord”


We see from the first usage regarding angels and men that it does not mean selected to be righteous, or evil before creation, but rather God knew some would be unchangeably wicked, and some righteous before creation. In that context, the following could be understood as:


Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew would believe in Him, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Essentially:

Before creation God knew there would be those who would believe, He at creation decided they should be conformed to the image of His Son. These ones that he marked out, He called out to, these ones He justified, and whom He justified He also glorified.


Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. XLII. — The Bells on the Priest’s Robe Were a Figure of the Apostles.


all the other appointments of Moses I can demonstrate that they were types, and symbols, and declarations of those things which would happen to Christ, of those who it was foreknown were to believe in Him, and of those things which would also be done by Christ Himself.



Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. LXX. — So also the Mysteries of Mithras Are Distorted from the Prophecies of Daniel and Isaiah.

And this prophecy proves that we shall behold this very King with glory; and the very terms of the prophecy declare loudly, that the people foreknown to believe in Him were fore-known to pursue diligently the fear of the Lord.


Chap. XLV. — Christ’s Session in Heaven Foretold.

And that God the Father of all would bring Christ to heaven after He had raised Him from the dead, and would keep Him there55 until He has subdued His enemies the devils, and until the number of those who are foreknown by Him as good and virtuous is complete, on whose account He has still delayed the consummation ...

 

[Brightfame52]

Them He foreknew are the ones that He Loved in Christ and chose in Him before the foundation of the world

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Them He foreknew are the ones that He Loved in Christ and chose in Him before the foundation of the world

No. There is no select group "assigned to salvation". God wants all to be saved.

The cross is given to all men, not just a preselected club.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.​

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.​

We see Jesus' Sacrifice was given to all people, not a elect group.

All the Earliest Chruch Leaders (with in 150 years of Jesus) taught that man has genuine free will, and that people were not preselected for salvation:


Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.​

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.​

Justin Martyr (110-165) brings up the topic of Predestination and says it is not what the Church believed in his day

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50​

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.​

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.​

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho​

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.​

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...​

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.​

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...​

All of the few "foreknown" references in the Bible can refer to God knowing in advance that people would believe in Him, and before creation having a plan for them.

Jesus did not teach predestination, but personal accountability in receiving the Holy Spirit:

Joh 14:15-24 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.​

We see the order of receiving the Holy Spirit is:

1. We receive God's words
2. We obey God's words
3. God loves the person who obeys
4. God then gives the person He loves the Holy Spirit

This shows man's "actions are important in the salvation journey.

The OT teaches personal accountability also:

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.​

The above scripture shows our choices, not a predetermined choice by God, determines our outcome and salvation.

Are we following a) Scripture, b) The Church, c) and Jesus, or are we following a doctrine that drives people away from the Love of God. Based upon around 3 scriptures, that can have duel meanings.

 

[Brightfame52]

future and hope

No. There is no select group "assigned to salvation".

Oh Yes it is.

God wants all to be saved.

All the elect and they all will be saved as He desires !

 

[Cassian]

future and hope



Oh Yes it is.



All the elect and they all will be saved as He desires !

the quotations of the early Church Fathers speak clearly and historically that your view is incorrect. If you believe it is not, can you cite any early Church Father that stated otherwise.

 

[Brightfame52]

the quotations of the early Church Fathers speak clearly and huistorically that your view is incorrect. If you believe it is not, can you cite amy ear4ly Church Father that stated otherwise.

I dont need to cite no church fathers.

 

[Cassian]

I dont need to cite no church fathers.

It's not a matter of need, you cannot.
Thus you cannot refute either scripture or the early Church Fathers.
I have a question for you. Why would you believe in a false doctrine developed by Calvin that historically came 1500 years after the Truth was given?

 

[Brightfame52]

It's not a matter of need, you cannot.
Thus you cannot refute either scripture or the early Church Fathers.
I have a question for you. Why would you believe in a false doctrine developed by Calvin that historically came 1500 years after the Truth was given?

No I don't need to, I never used them before.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

No I don't need to, I never used them before.

The Church Fathers were respected church leaders who came shortly after the apostles, they are the last living link to their teachings. Their view adds weight to doctrines and helps us understand what the Early Church thought and taught.

 

[Brightfame52]

The Church Fathers were respected church leaders who came shortly after the apostles, they are the last living link to their teachings. Their view adds weight to doctrines and helps us understand what the Early Church thought and taught.

I never needed them, never consulted them for anything, and Ive been in this way above 45 yrs

 

[BBAS 64]

The Golden Chain:

The verbs are actions undertaken by God.

Augustine (354-430): Of such says the apostle, “We know that to those that love God He worketh together all things for good, to them who are called according to His purpose; because those whom He before foreknew, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified.” Of these no one perishes, because all are elected. And they are elected because they were called according to the purpose — the purpose, however, not their own, but God’s; of which He elsewhere says, “That the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her that the elder shall serve the younger.” And in another place he says, “Not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace.” When, therefore, we hear,” Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called,” we ought to acknowledge that they were called according to His purpose; since He thence began, saying, “He worketh together all things for good to those who are called according to His purpose,” and then added, “Because those whom He before foreknew, He also did predestinate, to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren And to these promises He added, “Moreover, whom, He did predestinate, them He also called.” He wishes these, therefore, to be understood whom He called according to His purpose, lest any among them should be thought to be called and not elected, on account of that sentence of the Lord’s: “Many the called but few are elected.” For whoever are elected are without doubt also called; but not whosoever are called are as a consequence elected. Those, then, are elected, as has often been said, who are called according to the purpose, who also are predestinated and foreknown. If any one of these perishes, God is mistaken; but none of them perishes, because God is not mistaken. If any one of these perish, God is overcome by human sin; but none of them perishes, because God is overcome by nothing. Moreover, they are elected to reign with Christ, not as Judas was elected, to a work for which he was fitted. Because he was chosen by Him who well knew how to make use even of wicked men, so that even by his damnable deed that venerable work, for the sake of which He Himself had come, might be accomplished. When, therefore, we hear, “Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?” we ought to understand that the rest were elected by mercy, but he by judgment; those to obtain His kingdom, he to shed His blood!

 

[John Mullally]

The Golden Chain:

The verbs are actions undertaken by God.

Augustine (354-430): Of such says the apostle, “We know that to those that love God He worketh together all things for good, to them who are called according to His purpose; because those whom He before foreknew, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified.” Of these no one perishes, because all are elected. And they are elected because they were called according to the purpose — the purpose, however, not their own, but God’s; of which He elsewhere says, “That the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her that the elder shall serve the younger.” And in another place he says, “Not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace.” When, therefore, we hear,” Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called,” we ought to acknowledge that they were called according to His purpose; since He thence began, saying, “He worketh together all things for good to those who are called according to His purpose,” and then added, “Because those whom He before foreknew, He also did predestinate, to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren And to these promises He added, “Moreover, whom, He did predestinate, them He also called.” He wishes these, therefore, to be understood whom He called according to His purpose, lest any among them should be thought to be called and not elected, on account of that sentence of the Lord’s: “Many the called but few are elected.” For whoever are elected are without doubt also called; but not whosoever are called are as a consequence elected. Those, then, are elected, as has often been said, who are called according to the purpose, who also are predestinated and foreknown. If any one of these perishes, God is mistaken; but none of them perishes, because God is not mistaken. If any one of these perish, God is overcome by human sin; but none of them perishes, because God is overcome by nothing. Moreover, they are elected to reign with Christ, not as Judas was elected, to a work for which he was fitted. Because he was chosen by Him who well knew how to make use even of wicked men, so that even by his damnable deed that venerable work, for the sake of which He Himself had come, might be accomplished. When, therefore, we hear, “Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?” we ought to understand that the rest were elected by mercy, but he by judgment; those to obtain His kingdom, he to shed His blood!

Obviously Augustine's (354-430 AD) understanding of Romans 8:29-30 differs strongly from those of Justin Martyr (100-165 AD) and Irenaeus (120-202 AD) as only Augustine asserted that God chooses beforehand which individuals will believe, be saved, and be conformed into the image of Christ.

See Augustinian Calvinism - Wikipedia.

 

[BBAS 64]

Obviously Augustine's (354-430 AD) understanding of Romans 8:29-30 differs strongly from those of Justin Martyr (100-165 AD) and Irenaeus (120-202 AD) as only Augustine asserted that God chooses beforehand which individuals will believe, be saved, and be conformed into the image of Christ.

See Augustinian Calvinism - Wikipedia.

Good Day, John

Do you a copy of Justin Martyrs or Irenaeus work on Romans?

In Him

Bill

 

[John Mullally]

Good Day, John

Do you a copy of Justin Martyrs or Irenaeus work on Romans?

In Him

Bill

I don't see that Justin Martyr specifically wrote about the book of Romans in particular. Here is a link to his writings that only took me a a minute to find on the internet: Justin Martyr I am sure the same can be done with Irenaeus writings.

I see the unstated point of the OP is that the earliest writings from established Church fathers outside the NT argue in favor of free-will as opposed to deterministic predestination. FYI: There is not much available from Polycarp.

 

[Brightfame52]

Those foreknew had a foreunuion with Christ due to their election in Him 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

They were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[BBAS 64]

I don't see that Justin Martyr specifically wrote about the book of Romans in particular. Here is a link to his writings that only took me a a minute to find on the internet: Justin Martyr I am sure the same can be done with Irenaeus writings.

I see the unstated point of the OP is that the earliest writings from established Church fathers outside the NT argue in favor of free-will as opposed to deterministic predestination. FYI: There is not much available from Polycarp.

Good Day, John

So when you said " understanding of Romans 8:29-30 differs strongly from those of Justin Martyr (100-165 AD) and Irenaeus (120-202 AD)":

You assume that but admit there is nothing from either of these men avaible on Romans specifically that would lead anyone to the conclusion. Your are making that assumption from silence.

In Him

Bill

 

[John Mullally]

Good Day, John

So when you said " understanding of Romans 8:29-30 differs strongly from those of Justin Martyr (100-165 AD) and Irenaeus (120-202 AD)":

You assume that but admit there is nothing from either of these men avaible on Romans specifically that would lead anyone to the conclusion. Your are making that assumption from silence.

In Him

Bill

You are right in that the quotes from Martyr and Irenaeus do not reference Romans 8:29-30 - I did not fully understand the OP (Post 1). However, quotes from Martyr and Irenaeus contradict Augustine's understanding you state in Post 11 and those men were familiar with NT writings and knew more of their back story.

 

[BBAS 64]

You are right in that the quotes from Martyr and Irenaeus do not reference Romans 8:29-30 - I did not fully understand the OP (Post 1). However, quotes from Martyr and Irenaeus contradict Augustine's understanding you state in Post 11 and those men were familiar with NT writings and knew more of their back story.

Good Day, John

Seeing that my post has to do with the exegesis and application of Romans specifically.

Your point though well taken is moot, as nether Martyr or Irenaeus are directly dealing with the text in question.

In Him,

Bill

 

[atpollard]

I wish to investigate the writings of one of the Earliest Church Fathers (within 150 years of Christ), I have shown in other posts that they believed in genuine free will. But I wish to see how the term “foreknown”, was used.

You are misusing the actual word in scripture because of unrelated comments by a man that lived much later than the Apostle that wrote that scripture.

You are also removing GOD from being the FIRST CAUSE, by forcing God to react to what MEN WILL DO (which makes Men either the FIRST CAUSE or a co-equal DUAL CAUSE).

 

[FutureAndAHope]

You are misusing the actual word in scripture because of unrelated comments by a man that lived much later than the Apostle that wrote that scripture.

You are also removing GOD from being the FIRST CAUSE, by forcing God to react to what MEN WILL DO (which makes Men either the FIRST CAUSE or a co-equal DUAL CAUSE).

James 1:13-17 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

Predestination makes God not only the cause of good but also of evil. From that scripture we see God is not the cause of man's sin. So men in one sense men are a "duel cause".