Falling from faith.

[Dan Perez]

Israel now includes the physically uncircumcised, for circumcision was a shadow that pointed forward to Christ, hence we have--in our baptism, whether Jew or Gentile--received a spiritual circumcision (Colossians 2:11-12). That spiritual circumcision makes us members of God's Covenant people, His Church, Israel.

This isn't really difficult to understand, this is simply the unified witness of Scripture. Israel is God's people, the Messiah came as was promised, fulfilling the promises made to and through Abraham, Moses, and David. Jesus, the Seed of Abraham, the Prophet like Moses, and the Son of David, the Messiah. He has come, and in Him Israel's hope is made full, He is the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. While the unbelieving are branches which have been cut off by their unbelief, the olive tree has both natural branches (Jews) and wild branches which have been grafted (Gentiles), but the tree has one trunk, one root, and that is Christ. So that both Jew and Gentile are one in Christ, Jew and Gentile in Christ are Israel, the Church.

God has not, and I repeat, has not cast Israel to the side and under the bus. But has kept and is keeping the very promises He has made since the beginning. And while there are unbelieving Jews, and for the sake of the covenants and promises made with the patriarchs, God has not dismissed them; but rather the call of the Gospel to all people, Jew and Gentile, is that all of Israel will be saved (Romans 11:26) and that all the nations shall be gathered to Mt. Zion, to Christ (Isaiah 2:3, see also Luke 24:47 and Matthew 28:19).

-CryptoLutheran

And in 2 Cor 3:15 reads , But until THIS DAY , when Moses is being read , a COVERING lies upon their HEART .

And my question to all is , How are Jews saved today under The DISPENSATION of Grace , by Eph 2:8 and Rom 10:9 and if you disagree , how are people saved today , your thought ?

dan p

 

[Dan Perez]

What has that verse to do with the book of Hebrews? By the way, Acts 2:28 does not mention Israel or the body of Christ.

Acts 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.​

what has that verse to do with the book of Hebrews? And Galatians 3:28 says

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.​

So, what exactly is the reason you have for quoting it?


I am using the words as they are used in these verses - this is a sample of places where "in Christ" is used.

1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.​

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1 Timothy 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.​

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1 Timothy 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.​

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1 Timothy 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.​

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2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,​

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2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,​

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2 Timothy 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.​

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2 Timothy 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.​

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2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.​

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2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.​

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2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.​

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Philemon 1:6 That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.​

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Philemon 1:8 Wherefore, though I might be much bold in Christ to enjoin thee that which is convenient,​

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Philemon 1:23 There salute thee Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus;​

Sorry I did misquote and meant Acts 2:38 and Israel is in Acts 2:36 and the context of Acts is mostly all about Israel , especially Acts 28:26--31 explains why Israel was set aside along with their PRIESTHOOD .

dan p

 

[BobRyan]

Therefore, let us hasten to enter into that rest, so that no one may fall into the same example of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:11

It is truly a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Lord. So, hold fast to the faith and avoid falling into condemnation.

Gal 5:
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace

Rom 11:
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again

 

[BobRyan]

And in 2 Cor 3:15 reads , But until THIS DAY , when Moses is being read , a COVERING lies upon their HEART .

And my question to all is , How are Jews saved today under The DISPENSATION of Grace , by Eph 2:8 and Rom 10:9 and if you disagree , how are people saved today , your thought ?

dan p

Gal 1:6-9 there is only one gospel
Gal 3:8 - that one and only gospel "Was preached to Abraham"
Matt 17 -- Moses and Elijah stand with Christ in glory (before the cross) because of that one and only Gospel
Heb 4:2 the "Gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also"
1 Peter 1:13 the Spirit of Christ in the prophets of old "indicated the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow"

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. ​

Yet that says nothing about it being impossible for saved persons to fall.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Acts 2:36

The verse mentions Israel. It is likely because the people Peter is speaking to are Israelites by descent - they are mixed as regards their current nations of residence.

 

[d taylor]

Yet that says nothing about it being impossible for saved persons to fall.

​

Actually it does when it states no one can snatch them from Jesus' hands, no one includes everyone including the fallen away child of God

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Actually it does when it states no one can snatch them from Jesus' hands, no one includes everyone including the believer.​

That is how you interpret it. Interpretation is not the same as "stated in scripture".

 

[ViaCrucis]

And in 2 Cor 3:15 reads , But until THIS DAY , when Moses is being read , a COVERING lies upon their HEART .

And my question to all is , How are Jews saved today under The DISPENSATION of Grace , by Eph 2:8 and Rom 10:9 and if you disagree , how are people saved today , your thought ?

dan p

"And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

It has always been by God's grace, through faith. It is written, "Abraham had faith, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." (Romans 4:3) For Abraham, though he knew it not, looked forward to the day of Christ (John 8:56).

I believe in and confess the Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is for both Jew and Gentile, for "It is the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Greek, for by it the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith, just as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.'" (Romans 1:16-17). Salvation has always been by grace alone through faith, for death and sin came from Adam to all men, and so in Christ has come resurrection from the dead and justification. So just as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive.

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--for sin indeed was in the world before the Law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the One who was to come.

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one Man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one Man Jesus Christ.

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one Man's obedience the many will be made just. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that as sin reigned in death, grace might also reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." - Romans 5:12-21

From Adam until now, there is only one Savior, Jesus Christ, and one salvation, which He has won for all by His shed blood on the cross. That all who trust in Him shall be saved. For those who came before Him trusted in the promises of God concerning Him, and we who know Him confess Him as the promises of God have been preached to us through this Gospel. So that all in all might belong to God through faith. One people in Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[d taylor]

That is how you interpret it. Interpretation is not the same as "stated in scripture".

So how do you interpret no one or as John 4:14 states never thirst.

but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

So how do you interpret no one or as John 4:14 states never thirst.

but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

I read the words in both passages as promissory,

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.​

But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.​

I see the verses as promises and I believe that they are fulfilled at the last judgement.

 

[Servus]

Something that comes to mind is only those who haven't fallen away, debate over the salvation of those who have.

The person who has fallen away doesn't care about their salvation. They're not going to argue over whether or not they're still saved, because they couldn't care less.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Something that comes to mind is only those who haven't fallen away, debate over the salvation of those who have.

The person who has fallen away doesn't care about their salvation. They're not going to argue over whether or not they're still saved, because they couldn't care less.

I agree, people who fall away and never return are people who no longer want what Christians believe.

 

[d taylor]

I read the words in both passages as promissory,

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.​

But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.​

I see the verses as promises and I believe that they are fulfilled at the last judgement.

-​

There is no final judgment for a person who has believed in The Messiah for Eternal Life salvation (to see if they will receive it).

 

[SamInNi]

For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, and have even tasted of the heavenly gift, and have become sharers in the Holy Spirit, who, despite having tasted the good Word of God and the virtues of the future age, have yet fallen away, to be renewed again to penance, since they are crucifying again in themselves the Son of God and are still maintaining pretences.
Hebrews 6:4-6

It seems that there is scripture in which those who have received the Holy Spirit may fall away from the faith.​

Hebrews 6:4-6 in isolation can sometimes be misleading? (This translation is puzzling—“penance”? “maintaining pretences”?)

To be clear, Hebrews 6:4-6 reads:
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“For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt" (ESV).​

When reading these verses we should look at the context and keep verse 9 in mind: “Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.”

In my view this contrast demonstrates that the character of those who “deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance” (Amplified Bible) is evidence that they have not experienced genuine salvation. “Better things” always “belong to [or accompany] salvation”. Evidence that belongs to true salvation, that is obviously associated with it, is seen in those who cannot habitually out of their fallen character bring shame and disgrace on Christ.

Those who fall away, whose lives are characterised by wrong behaviour (and perhaps by inference, false beliefs), are likened to “thorns and thistles”. Being spiritually worthless they are “near to a curse” and are fit only for burning.

People who continually practise sin in a way that defines their personality, are “not of God” (1st John 3:10); “No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him…” (v. 9). They cannot wilfully practise sin because they are born of God. But “...the children of the devil are obvious” (v. 10).

There is an important distinction between those who practise sin and those who are born again and struggle with it—the “flesh” clashes with our inner new creation that’s been birthed in the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:17).

Those who are saved, but repeatedly fall into sin as part in this struggle between flesh and Spirit, are not those who “deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance”. Their struggles against sin will result in spiritual growth. Their lives will show the fruit of the Spirit, the better things that always accompany salvation.

For more see HERE.



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[Hazelelponi]

Galatians 6:9 "Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers."

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

If you begin with an incorrect premise your final conclusion will likewise be incorrect.

First to point out, this is the Apostle Paul speaking to first generation believers. We understand that the main command to the church as a whole - literally her very role on this earth - is to spread the gospel, which to the earliest Christians was absolutely paramount, especially so to Paul.

Doing good in this passage is easily seen through this lens because the greatest good we can do for anyone, according to Scripture, is to share the Gospel - the word Gospel comes from the Greek word euangelion which literally means "The Good News".

When we share Christ with the lost we save their very souls when they receive Christ as Lord and Savior. So sharing that Christ has come to restore our relationship with God and save us from God's wrath is good news indeed.

It's not the only good that can and should be done - even the early Christians fed the poor and such as part of their ministry to reach the lost and care for other Christians- but ultimately our highest calling is to share the Gospel and everything we do reflects upon that.

So, now we are at Galatians 6:9 where Paul says "Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."

Paul here sees the church as a whole reaping a harvest of souls in Jesus' Name.

He was saying, now isn't the time to become complacent with our purpose - that of having a harvest of souls for the Lord upon His Return.

This isn't taking about our individual salvation so much as it's reminding the church at all times to share the Gospel with the lost and be the Ambassadors we are here to be.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

-​

There is no final judgment for a person who has believed in The Messiah for Eternal Life salvation (to see if they will receive it).

I do not agree. I point to Matthew 25:31-46, however you may hold to a view that allows you to discount the passage.

 

[Servus]

I agree, people who fall away and never return are people who no longer want what Christians believe.

I think also if they do end up in hell, they're probably not going to be surprised or wonder why.

 

[Servus]

I do not agree. I point to Matthew 25:31-46, however you may hold to a view that allows you to discount the passage.

I'm not sure how that would apply since it's about charity towards others, rather than believe, faith and perseverance.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Hebrews 6:4-6 in isolation can sometimes be misleading? (This translation is puzzling—“penance”? “maintaining pretences”?)

The translation is from Latin. Penance means repentance in the text.

we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.

George Haydock comments - his comment also quotes from another commentator surnamed Witham.

• We trust better things of you, &c. That is, though I have admonished you in this manner, I hope the best, especially knowing how charitable may of you have been to your Christian brethren. (Witham)
• Faith begins the work of salvation; good works from a principle of charity continue it; perseverance in virtue, and patience under afflictions complete it. To assert the contrary is not to derogate so much from the work of man, as from the grace of God, which is the cause and ground of all that is good in man. “Mark,” says St. Augustine, “that he to whom our Lord gave grace, hath our Lord, also his debtor. He found him a giver in the time of mercy: he that him his debtor in the time of judgment.” (In Psalm vi.)
• It is certain God, who is not unjust, will reward these good works, if you continue in the same, to the accomplishing of hope even to the end.[2] for the obtaining the happiness you hope for. Be not therefore slothful, and negligent; it is by faith, patience, and perseverance, that you will inherit God’s promises. (Witham)