Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?

[BurningBush84]

Residue

How can you compare Matthew 18:8 and Revelation 21:4 ??? How can you squeeze them into one same message?????

 

[BurningBush84]

He doesn't burn them forever, it's the smoke... of their burning that goes up forever. See Psalms 37 which shows that when Satan and the wicked are cast into the fire, they simply are 'no more'.

How can you compare Matthew 18:8 with Revelation 21:4 ? Those 2 passages are polar opposites. Yet your trying to merge them

 

[Butch5]

I have had 2 semesters of graduate level Greek and Greek literally says no such thing! I know you have found something, somewhere which says what you claim but here are the relevant vss. from the Eastern Greek orthodox Bible, EOB. Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church for 2000 yrs +/- Also Psalm 110:4 from the 1917 Jewish Publication Society OT JPS, which Heb was quoting.

EOB Heb 5:6 As he says also in another place: Thou are a priest forever, According to the order of Melchizedek.​

JPS Psalms 110:4​

(4) The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent: 'Thou art a priest for ever after the manner of Melchizedek.​

Links to both versions.

Orthodox New Testament : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Eastern / Orthodox Bible: New TestamentBased on the Septuagint and the Patriarchal Text

archive.org

Psalm 110 JPS Tanakh 1917

biblehub.com

You can go on about 2000 years of Greek and all of the scholars you'd like. The bottom line is that something that ends cannot be eternal. That's just common sense that anyone can see.

 

[Servus]

You can go on about 2000 years of Greek and all of the scholars you'd like. The bottom line is that something that ends cannot be eternal. That's just common sense that anyone can see.

This his neverending thread has gone on forever

 

[Servus]

I suppose when the bible says aiōnas aiōnōn (forever and ever) it literally means infinity plus infinity.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Forever Does Not Always Mean Forever:

I believe why most hold to Eternal Torment are for five reasons.​

​

#1. They cannot imagine how most evangelical churches could be wrong.​

#2. While I believe the King James Bible is 100% accurate and trustworthy, they don't understand that the KJB (Which was the Bible used for hundreds of years) was written in archaic wording and it has influenced later translations.​

#3. They do not understand that the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible. Sure, sometimes the word “forever” can mean “forever,” but not always.​

#4. They do not fully grasp that there are homonyms in the Bible (For example: Many are ignorant of the fact that words like: "repent" and "worship" can have multiple meanings or definitions depending on the context). However, many Christians have a one definition for each word type mentality (When they read the Bible).​

#5. Eternal Torment is all they ever known, and it has become ingrained in them.​

​

I heard a pastor once say that the best way to interpret the Bible is to let the Bible do the interpreting for you. The word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?​

​

• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.​

​

• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).​

​

• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).​

​

• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).​

​

• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).​

​

• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).​

​

• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):​

​

• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).​

​

• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).​

​

• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.​

​

• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).​

​

• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).​

​

• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.​

​

Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).​

​

• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).​

​

• "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).​

​

• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).​

​

• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.​

​

• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 1:15 where it is contrasted with “for a while.”​

​

So the word "forever" as used in the Bible is true. It does mean "forever" but it is talking in "forever" under the context of within either a temporary Covenant, or here upon this Earth (which is temporal), or within the Lake of Fire (Which is also a temporary place). In Philemon 1:15: Paul mentioned to Philemon how Onesimus was going to return back to him (his master) forever.​

​

Obviously Onesimus is not an immortal man still living upon the Earth with his master (Philemon) today. He was returning back to his master forever within the context of their temporary lives upon the Earth.​

Source used:
(Please take note that I do not agree with everything these Christian authors believe, say, or do).
Apttpteach

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If anyone is interested, I make a great case against Eternal Torment with a defense of Conditional Immortality.

I explain the 5 top verses that are used to defend (ECT - Eternal Conscious Torment).

You can check that at starting in my post here in another thread.

 

[public hermit]

If anyone is interested, I make a great case against Eternal Torment with a defense of Conditional Immortality.

I explain the 5 top verses that are used to defend (ECT - Eternal Conscious Torment).

You can check that at starting in my post here in another thread.

I applaud the thoroughness of your research. Great job! Although I hold to UR, I'm glad to see others pushing back against ECT, which I find to be a horrendous doctrine. Thank you for sharing your efforts. For whatever reason, I missed that thread the first time around.

 

[Der Alte]

You can go on about 2000 years of Greek and all of the scholars you'd like. The bottom line is that something that ends cannot be eternal. That's just common sense that anyone can see.

You are not a Greek language scholar. I am not talking about "Aion." "Aionios" is an adjective it has no end. Jesus did not invent a new Greek language when He came to earth. He used the same Greek language that had been used in Greece before his birth. As I have repeatedly shown Jesus defined/described "aionios life" as "shall not perish" three times" "Aionios" meant eternal before Jesus was born and it still means eternal 2000 years later. And FYI Jesus also defines "aion" as "eternity."

​

Forever Does Not Always Mean Forever:

I believe why most hold to Eternal Torment are for five reasons.​

#1. They cannot imagine how most evangelical churches could be wrong.​

#2. While I believe the King James Bible is 100% accurate and trustworthy, they don't understand that the KJB (Which was the Bible used for hundreds of years) was written in archaic wording and it has influenced later translations.​

#3. They do not understand that the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible. Sure, sometimes the word “forever” can mean “forever,” but not always.​

#4. They do not fully grasp that there are homonyms in the Bible (For example: Many are ignorant of the fact that words like: "repent" and "worship" can have multiple meanings or definitions depending on the context). However, many Christians have a one definition for each word type mentality (When they read the Bible).​

#5. Eternal Torment is all they ever known, and it has become ingrained in them.​

I heard a pastor once say that the best way to interpret the Bible is to let the Bible do the interpreting for you. The word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?​

• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.​

• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).​

• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).​

• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).​

• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).​

• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).​

• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):​

• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).​

• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).​

• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.​

• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).​

• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).​

• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.​

Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).​

• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).​

• "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).​

• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).​

• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.​

• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 1:15 where it is contrasted with “for a while.”​

So the word "forever" as used in the Bible is true. It does mean "forever" but it is talking in "forever" under the context of within either a temporary Covenant, or here upon this Earth (which is temporal), or within the Lake of Fire (Which is also a temporary place). In Philemon 1:15: Paul mentioned to Philemon how Onesmith was going to return back to him (his master) forever.​

Obviously Onesmith is not an immortal man still living upon the Earth with his master (Philemon) today. He was returning back to his master forever within the context of their temporary lives upon the Earth.​

Source used:
(Please take note that I do not agree with everything these Christian authors believe, say, or do).
Apttpteach

So you agree with the source when it says what you want to hear but disagree otherwise. So that makes you the one who determines what it right and wrong. How convenient. That any word in the Bible is sometimes used figuratively does NOT change its inherent meaning.

John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.​

John 3:16​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite age, by definition “aionion life” means eternal or everlasting life.

John 10:28​

(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition means “eternal life.”

 

[Davy]

How can you compare Matthew 18:8 with Revelation 21:4 ? Those 2 passages are polar opposites. Yet your trying to merge them

That Matthew Scripture has to do with the things of this present world. The Revelation verse has to do with the world to come. Being able to separate the timelines in God's Word is one of the most important goals in understanding God's Word.

 

[Servus]

I applaud the thoroughness of your research. Great job! Although I hold to UR, I'm glad to see others pushing back against ECT, which I find to be a horrendous doctrine. Thank you for sharing your efforts. For whatever reason, I missed that thread the first time around.

Yes, I've gone through it in the past and was impressed with how thorough it was. I don't think BH is into UR either.

It really doesn't seem to make sense for eternal life to be a gift, if everyone is already immortal.

 

[Halbhh]

A parable is a specific kind of figure of speech. In all uncontested parables there is a comparison of something known/understood to explain something unknown/not understood. e.g. "the kingdom of heaven is like unto a sower sowing seed..." AFAIK There is no scripture to support your final conclusion "in the final Judgement he might well be consigned to the 'second death', to 'perish' in the fire that will 'destroy body and soul' finally."

If you are suggesting universalism, that no one can reject God, it just contradicts too much scripture. So we will have to just disagree if that's what you mean. (which is fine -- we don't have to think alike on all possible matters: Romans 14:1 - The Law of Liberty)

 

[public hermit]

Yes, I've gone through it in the past and was impressed with how thorough it was. I don't think BH is into UR either.

It really doesn't seem to make sense for eternal life to be a gift, if everyone is already immortal.

I gathered BH does not accept UR. This life is a gift, and everyone has it. I don't think we are immortal. Immortality is a divine attribute not a human one. We are created to participate in the divine narure, which means we are created to participate in God's immortality. Just as this life is a gift so is immortality. Where I disagree with those who hold to conditional immortality is regarding the power of God's love to bring every rational creature God has created to fulfillment. Some might have to go through hell until they accept their creaturehood and the way of love in repentance and humility, but I reject the idea that God destroys those God has created in the divine image. God doesn't destroy what God has created, God brings what God creates to fulfillment. And that is true not only for humans but for all creation. All things in heaven and on earth are reconciled to God through Jesus Christ.

 

[Servus]

If you are suggesting universalism, that no one can reject God, it just contradicts too much scripture. So we will have to just disagree if that's what you mean. (which is fine -- we don't have to think alike on all possible matters: Romans 14:1 - The Law of Liberty)

DA has a tendency to regard anyone who's not a firm believer in eternal torment as a universalist. A lot of what he posts in threads like these is what he's written to argue against universalism.

 

[Servus]

I gathered BH does not accept UR. This life is a gift, and everyone has it. I don't think we are immortal. Immortality is a divine attribute not a human one. We are created to participate in the divine narure, which means we are created to participate in God's immortality. Just as this life is a gift so is immortality. Where I disagree with those who hold to conditional immortality is regarding the power of God's love to bring every rational creature God has created to fulfillment. Some might have to go through hell until they accept their creaturehood and the way of love in repentance and humility, but I reject the idea that God destroys those God has created in the divine image. God doesn't destroy what God has created, God brings what God creates to fulfillment. And that is true not only for humans but for all creation. All things in heaven and on earth are reconciled to God through Jesus Christ.

As far as I know the idea of Conditional Immortality, isn't that God destroys anyone, it's just that people aren't born with immortal souls/spirits. Our soul/spirit is given the gift of immortality through belief and faith in Christ.

@Bible Highlighter please correct me if I got that wrong.

 

[public hermit]

As far as I know the idea of Conditional Immortality, isn't that God destroys anyone, it's just that people aren't born with immortal souls/spirits. Our soul/spirit is given the gift of immortality through belief and faith in Christ.

@Bible Highlighter please correct me if I got that wrong.

I can rephrase it. God does not create crearures in the divine image to allow them to become nothing. God creates them to bring them to fulfillment. However we phrase it, the emphasis is on the power and love of God to succeed at what God sets out to do. If God desires that none perish, then I believe God is able to fulfill God's desire.

 

[public hermit]

As far as I know the idea of Conditional Immortality, isn't that God destroys anyone, it's just that people aren't born with immortal souls/spirits. Our soul/spirit is given the gift of immortality through belief and faith in Christ.

@Bible Highlighter please correct me if I got that wrong.

Ha! You changed your name. I recognize your avatar, though. I was about to say you have figured out DA pretty quickly for a new CFer. Lol

 

[Servus]

I can rephrase it. God does not create crearures in the divine image to allow them to become nothing. God creates them to bring them to fulfillment. However we phrase it, the emphasis is on the power and love of God to succeed at what God sets out to do. If God desires that none perish, then I believe God is able to fulfill God's desire.

Okay I can go with that, but I don't see how that's not universalism.

 

[Servus]

Ha! You changed your name. I recognize your avatar, though. I was about to say you have figured out DA pretty quickly for a new CFer. Lol

Yeah I kept the avatar to not go completely incognito. People expressed confusion over MMXX so I finally changed it. Got tired of explaining that MMXX was 2020 (the year I joined) in Roman numerals.

 

[public hermit]

Okay I can go with that, but I don't see how that's not universalism.

In my initial comment to BH, I said: "Although I hold to UR, I'm glad to see others pushing back against ECT, which I find to be a horrendous doctrine." I was trying to clarify that my position differed from BH's while also commending the thorough research. Although I ultimately disagree with BH, I read through it and found it helpful.