Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?

[BurningBush84]

And Butch5 is using the same reasoning JW's use when they defend the NWT of John 1:1.

"All those many other translations made @ different times with different scholars with different beliefs, got it wrong".

God lied when he said he will not tempt us beyond what we can bear ?


And what a coincidence, Butch5 and JW's interpret Luke 16 thee exact same way .

 

[BurningBush84]

Did you get this answered?

If you did get it answered, perhaps someone quoted then one of the various scriptures that directly say that those suffering there (until they cease to exist) will only pay for their deeds, only, and not more, and only to the last penny of what they owe, and not more than that.

Did you get that answered satisfactorily, to resolve your reasonable (and right to ask about) objection to what had seemed it might be some unfair punishment?

Luke 12:47-48 answer's that question

 

[Halbhh]

"and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.".
Youngs Literal Translation of Revelation 14:11

No rest means no rest .

Right, the special category of those that chose to worship the beast. They get a special separate consideration and special punishment.

There are about 20-30 passages that tell us something on the fates of those that go into the fire, and it's needed to read them all, even if we want to only give a brief nutshell answer that only summarizes some larger broad groups as I tried to do.

 

[BurningBush84]

Right, the special category of those that chose to worship the beast. They get a special separate consideration and special punishment.

There are about 20-30 passages that tell us something on the fates of those that go into the fire, and it's needed to read them all, even if we want to only give a brief nutshell answer that only summarizes some larger broad groups as I tried to do.

What do you mean by "special" ? Like something similar to Purgatory?

 

[Halbhh]

What do you mean by "special" ? Like something similar to Purgatory?

No, that fate doesn't seem like purgatory at all -- it looks like what the 'devil and his angels' will get! (something vastly worse) But it may be still finite (I cannot say). It's the smoke of their torment that will rise forever.... We aren't told if they will get extinguished like those human souls who will "perish" in the "second death" which will "destroy body and soul". It may be they will, only first will have to suffer much longer from having done a much worse evil.

 

[BurningBush84]

Why should Atheists believe in Annihilationism when they already do? Why should Atheists fear God's wrath ? If God's wrath ultimately means Resting In Peace forever ???? They already believe that!!

Why should anybody fear Resting In Peace forever ?????

 

[BurningBush84]

No, that fate doesn't seem like purgatory at all -- it looks like what the 'devil and his angels' will get! (something vastly worse) But it may be still finite (I cannot say). It's the smoke of their torment that will rise forever.... We aren't told if they will get extinguished like those human souls who will "perish" in the "second death" which will "destroy body and soul". It may be they will, only first will have to suffer much longer from having done a much worse evil.

All smoke has a fuel source.

 

[Halbhh]

All smoke has a fuel source.

God is quite able. (What drives the fire, before anyone is even thrown in there? It will not need to be fed more fuel unless God is unable to make a fire that lasts without new fuel.... But, thinking God is unable to do something isn't a sound premise. )

 

[BurningBush84]

God is quite able. (What drives the fire, before anyone is even thrown in there? It will not need to be fed more fuel unless God is unable to make a fire that lasts without new fuel.... But, thinking God is unable to do something isn't a sound premise. )

What did Jesus save mankind from if there is nothing to be saved from ?

 

[Halbhh]

What did Jesus save mankind from if there is nothing to be saved from ?

You mean in general: from the fair and Just reward for our deeds: death. (per Romans 2:6)

As I expect you probably already have heard what that Just reward is:

Romans 6:23 - The Wages of Sin

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

biblehub.com

 

[BurningBush84]

You mean in general: from the fair and Just reward for our deeds: death. (per Romans 2:6)

As I expect you probably already have heard what that Just reward is:

Romans 6:23 - The Wages of Sin

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

biblehub.com

You mean in general: from the fair and Just reward for our deeds: death. (per Romans 2:6)

As I expect you probably already have heard what that Just reward is:

Romans 6:23 - The Wages of Sin

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

biblehub.com

If death is so terrible, who do so many people commit suicide?

 

[Halbhh]

If death is so terrible, who do so many people commit suicide?

Interesting point right? They must imagine they are going to get oblivion and an end to the suffering of that moment. If they thought there was an afterlife and accountability....many might well change their minds instantly on that choice.

'

 

[BurningBush84]

Are

Interesting point right? They must imagine they are going to get oblivion and an end to the suffering of that moment. If they thought there was an afterlife and accountability....many might well change their minds instantly on that choice.

'

What's the difference between oblivion and annihilation?

 

[BurningBush84]

If the wages of sin were just physical death than Jesus would never have been tortured . If Jesus just saved mankind from annihilation then why do so many people commit suicide???? How can the dead bury the dead (Luke 9:60) ?

What is the greatest form of Savior ???

0ne who saves mankind from
Revelation 21:4 ????

Or one who saves mankind from Luke 16:26 ????

 

[GenemZ]

I have some questions for those who believe that hell is a real place and that the wicked will be punished forever. What would be the purpose of this? What does it accomplish? How does this give glory to God? Why would God require the wicked dead to suffer forever?

God intended for every angel and every human soul to be with God forever.

When creating them He chose to give them everlasting existence as a spirit or as a soul.
That way, they could be with God forever.

As a result, both angelic spirit life and human soul life can be obliterated.

The problem with immutable evil is that it will forever refuse to repent due to its insatiable hatred for God and those who are good.

Right now Satan can save himself from the Lake of Fire if he would only stop being cruel and sadistic towards those who are truly good.
All Satan has to do? Stop all the wars he incites... stop all the lies he incites and approves of... refuse to enter the Antichrist... and leave Israel in peace. If he did that? God would have to stop the sentence to Hell. For Satan would have proved God's Word a lie and unfit to be his judge and executioner.

Now its being proven that Satan will never change being evil. That those who reject Christ will never stop rejecting Him...

So? What does that leave God with to deal with, since those who ate evil will 'exist' forever? God must put a stop to evils hatred from being expressed towards those who are the righteous. To stop evil from expressing hatred and the desire to do harm? The perpetual torment they will be baptized into will force those who are evil to only concentrate on themselves, and not be able to focus upon the righteous any longer. The only sense of comfort evil could ever hope for would be to get down on its knees and proclaim Jesus as Lord. Its the only way they can stop concentrating upon themselves. They will learn to hate their hatred, and hate that they will always know they would return to desiring to be harming the righteous if set free.... The everlasting torment forces them to internalize their evil hatred upon where it belongs. Themselves.

Remove the torment? They would set out to confuse and attack the righteous with lies. Evil's inability to change for the good will be proven when Satan is released from prison after 1000 years, and the first thing he does is attempt too stir up the world to kill the Messiah.

If Satan and his own had their way? We would all be tormented if we refused to think as he wants us to. Therefore, Satan's punishment will be the punishment he would inflict upon all righteousness for refusing to accept his lies and unreality about himself. That is why Jesus said the following....

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge,
you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured
back to you." Matthew 7:1-2​

Everyone in the Lake of Fire wish to follow Satan. They reject Jesus Christ.
If Satan had his way? Its Jesus who he would want to burn up.
As Satan judged the Lord, so shall his own judgement be.

The Lake of Fire is God's justice giving to those who desire to do evil how they would judge the righteous if they had their way!

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge,
you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured
back to you." Matthew 7:1-2​

grace and peace....

 

[Halbhh]

Are


What's the difference between oblivion and annihilation?

Not much in a certain way, though it seems in annihilation first there is the grief of realizing one's impending end, and probably also a time of suffering before the destruction is complete. But the end result is the same: the cessation of suffering. Above I was only saying that if a person did not believe in God, and had imagined that mortal death, the 'first death', was a final end, then a person thinking that way would probably think that the death of the mortal body would bring oblivion, but they are mistaken in that belief. They may have quite a bit of suffering after the death of the mortal body.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I have some questions for those who believe that hell is a real place and that the wicked will be punished forever. What would be the purpose of this? What does it accomplish? How does this give glory to God? Why would God require the wicked dead to suffer forever?

I am not looking to debate whether or not hell is real. I don't believe it is; others do. I'm not looking for somebody to prove hell is real. What I seek is Scripture-based answers, answers using verses. I don't want opinions or speculations.

I wonder if that camp even thinks about these questions. It is clear in Scripture that unforgiven sinners will be punished for their sins. Jesus was punished on the cross for sins. He paid the price of the punishment for sins. Yet, did he not die? And with his death, did not the punishment for sins end? If you use the rationale that the punishment for sins is never to end, doesn't that mean that Jesus would still be on the cross, still being punished for sins, until today? And beyond today into eternity?
Without a doubt, there have been many, many wicked people in the history of mankind. Individuals, governments, religions, criminals, warlords, etc., are personally responsible for countless deaths. And the many others who have caused incredible pain and suffering. People who should have been made to suffer great punishment while alive. It is also true that God dealt out some severe punishments in the Old Testament.

Let's move on from all of that. So Jesus has returned and judged all of the goats. So, what happens next? There is no way that all goats are equally guilty of the same evil deeds, quantity or degree. Your vision of Dante's Infernal aside, Scripture makes no mention of what type of punishment or if there are different degrees of punishment awaiting the goats, so we must deduce that the punishment is the same type for all of the goats. So, will a man who abused his children, committed adultery, and embezzled money from his job be punished the same as Hitler or Stalin? Or a woman who was a junkie, defrauded the government, stole widows' social security checks, and robbed men for kicks is going to pay the same price as Pol Pot or Mao?
According to the narrative, every goat in hell will be punished forever and ever. Not just a hundred years, a thousand, a million but trillions of years? Doesn't that seem like overkill? Doesn't that seem beyond excessive? God can do as He sees fit, of course. So no amount of punishment ever fits the crimes, right? A thousand years of 24/7, excruciating, non-stop pain and agony isn't even close to being enough punishment, right? Not a thousand, not a million, not a trillion years is even close to unforgiven sin ever being paid for?
This is what you people believe. The idea that God would simply destroy all the goats after judgment day just doesn't make any sense, does it? According to you, God has no mercy and no sense of justice. Just "Let 'em burn," right? "Let them suffer forever," right? To me, this makes God out to be the most sadistic, mean, and petty tyrant one could ever imagine.
And yet, why would God do this? Everything God has done, is doing and will do is because He has a reason to do so. What would be the reason for hell? Everything that God started is going to come to an end and God is going to start over; any traces of the old world and the taint of man and sin will have been eradicated and forgotten. Does God want to keep a reminder of sinful men around? Is hell going to be there as a warning to the saints, who after the resurrection, will never commit sin again? I'm just trying to put this puzzle of ever-lasting punishment together. I'm hoping one of you can explain it to me, using Scripture of course!

I think you’re overlooking the fact that God has also offered salvation to everyone as well. Why God has chosen to do what He has chosen is really irrelevant. What is relevant is what He said He would do in the scriptures. Personally I’m undecided whether eternal torment is true or annihilationism is true but either way the motives for whatever decision God made are irrelevant to the truth of what He will do. It doesn’t matter if we like it or not or whether we agree with it or not, what matters is what is going to actually happen. Whether it’s eternal torment or total annihilation each person is going to have to decide if either of those are the fate they want to receive. He has put the ball in our court, do we want mercy or not? It’s our decision.

 

[BurningBush84]

Not much in a certain way, though it seems in annihilation first there is the grief of realizing one's impending end, and probably also a time of suffering before the destruction is complete. But the end result is the same: the cessation of suffering. Above I was only saying that if a person did not believe in God, and had imagined that mortal death, the 'first death', was a final end, then a person thinking that way would probably think that the death of the mortal body would bring oblivion, but they are mistaken in that belief. They may have quite a bit of suffering after the death of the mortal body.

A don't think a human body could live more than a few seconds after getting thrown into a lake of fire. I assume it's going to be a quick death. I'm sure Jesus would have preferred a quick death.

 

[Der Alte]

A don't think a human body could live more than a few seconds after getting thrown into a lake of fire. I assume it's going to be a quick death. I'm sure Jesus would have preferred a quick death.

The rich man in Luke 16 who was dead had some kind of conscious awareness and suffered torment in flames and had a conversation with Abraham.

 

[Halbhh]

The rich man in Luke 16 who was dead had some kind of conscious awareness and suffered torment in flames and had a conversation with Abraham.

In this seeming parable, the "bosom of Abraham" is used to represent heaven, perhaps because that would be a metaphor or figurative wording that would best communicate to the Jewish listeners Christ was speaking to at that moment. While the situation of the rich man in the apparent parable might seem to be like the Catholic idea of purgatory (and maybe it is!...), maybe one very reasonable guess we can make is that this is in a time before the Final Judgment, so that the rich man here is in a place that reminds of the "spirits in prison" of 1rst Peter 3:18-20, akin to purgatory even...even if it turns out that in the final Judgement he might well be consigned to the "second death", to "perish" in the fire that will "destroy body and soul" finally.