Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?

[BurningBush84]

The rich man in Luke 16 who was dead had some kind of conscious awareness and suffered torment in flames and had a conversation with Abraham.

Yes I believe the Rich Man's soul is enduring eternal destruction in Hades currently. Verse 26 proves the suffering is forever.

"And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us".


And on the Last Day he will be transferred to the lake of fire where his soul and body will endure eternal destruction.

 

[Halbhh]

Yes I believe the Rich Man's soul is enduring eternal destruction in Hades currently. Verse 26 proves the suffering is forever.

"And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us".


And on the Last Day he will be transferred to the lake of fire where his soul and body will endure eternal destruction.

But if a human soul is to 'endure' eternal suffering....that means that we have a huge error (and more than just 1) in the New Testament:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." -- Christ the Lord, Matthew 10:28

And that's just 1 of at least a dozen verses that don't agree with that doctrinal theory of eternal suffering for humans there, who aren't already like the angels (in fact, Christ said we are not yet like the angels! (e.g. Mark 12:25 for instance)) -- and who therefore don't yet have eternal life, not having been given it!

2 choices for us:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. " -- John 3:16

Either to "perish", or to have "eternal life"!

So, while immortal fallen angels, the 'devil and his angels' will indeed be able to endure there (since they already have eternal life, immortality)....we humans only gain eternal life (and thus will not perish) if God gives it to us.

So, given a choice whether to trust in Christ's wording, or in a man made doctrinal theory...this is a very easy choice for me! I've learned by experience to trust the words Christ said in the 4 gospels (by having tested so many of them in precise detail, over and over, and they always work!)

So, without eternal life, those humans there, we read, will "perish" in the "second death" that "destroys body and soul" and the smoke of their torment will rise forever, but only the fallen angels will endure it seems to be what we with faith in the words of scripture can't help but admit....

But the human souls there will be destroyed, they will cease to exist, forever. It's an eternal punishment.

 

[BurningBush84]

But if a human soul is to 'endure' eternal suffering....that means that we have a huge error (and more than just 1) in the New Testament:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." -- Christ the Lord, Matthew 10:28

And that's just 1 of at least a dozen verses that don't agree with that doctrinal theory of eternal suffering for humans there, who aren't already like the angels (in fact, Christ said we are not yet like the angels! (e.g. Mark 12:25 for instance)) -- and who therefore don't yet have eternal life, not having been given it!

2 choices for us:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. " -- John 3:16

Either to "perish", or to have "eternal life"!

So, while immortal fallen angels, the 'devil and his angels' will indeed be able to endure there (since they already have eternal life, immortality)....we humans only gain eternal life (and thus will not perish) if God gives it to us.

So, given a choice whether to trust in Christ's wording, or in a man made doctrinal theory...this is a very easy choice for me! I've learned by experience to trust the words Christ said in the 4 gospels (by having tested so many of them in precise detail, over and over, and they always work!)

So, without eternal life, those humans there, we read, will "perish" in the "second death" that "destroys body and soul" and the smoke of their torment will rise forever, but only the fallen angels will endure it seems to be what we with faith in the words of scripture can't help but admit....

But the human souls there will be destroyed, they will cease to exist, forever. It's an eternal punishment.

I don't see the word annihilation anywhere in the Bible. Things can endure destruction and still exist. I don't use Youngs Literal Translation of the Bible. All the other Bibles say eternal or everlasting.

I let Hebrews 9:27 interpret Luke 16:19-31.

What happened in Luke 16 is exactly what Hebrews 9:27 says happens .

Hebrews 9:27 says man is destined to die only once. But you don't believe that. You believe some men will die twice.

Who is the False Prophet in Revelation 20:10 ??

The Devil and his angels and the false prophet are created beings. Humans are created beings.

" “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.". Matthew 25:41

There isn't 2 different Lakes of Fire. The cursed are getting the same sentence and going to the SAME place. They will endure eternal destruction.

If the dead can bury the dead (Luke 9:60) then destruction doesn't always mean annihilation.

I believe Luke 16 was specifically designed to address annihilationists.

 

[Halbhh]

I don't see the word annihilation anywhere in the Bible.

I'm happy to be able to report from reading through all the bible 3 times that doctrinal theories like that one and the others that disagree also are none of them in the text as some summary word/phrase like 'annihilation' or 'eternal conscious torment'.

The text is superior to our theories. We should trust it.

You believe some men will die twice.

Indeed I do trust the words of scripture telling us precisely that.

Do you know those (many) verses?...

Look (if to refresh or as new, either way):

What Does the Bible Say About The Second Death?

Bible verses about The Second Death

www.openbible.info

As you can see it's not only 1 or 2 verses that talk about the "second death".

It's the Bible that talks about the "second death" for those that are unacceptable to God.

 

[BurningBush84]

I'm happy to be able to report from reading through all the bible 3 times that doctrinal theories like that one and the others that disagree also are none of them in the text as some summary word/phrase like 'annihilation' or 'eternal conscious torment'.

The text is superior to our theories. We should trust it.


Indeed I do trust the words of scripture telling us precisely that.

Do you know those (many) verses?...

Look (if to refresh or as new, either way):

What Does the Bible Say About The Second Death?

Bible verses about The Second Death

www.openbible.info

As you can see it's not only 1 or 2 verses that talk about the "second death".

It's the Bible that talks about the "second death" for those that are unacceptable to God.

Then how can the dead bury the dead ???

"Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead,". Luke 9:60

"Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment," . Hebrews 9:27

Keyword= once

 

[Halbhh]

Then how can the dead bury the dead ???

For this (very familiar verse I've had to consider at times in real life, here), just read in context and really listen in context, the surrounding verses that give it its exact meaning. (and it's perfectly ok to also look at commentaries, as for instance at Bible Hub) What is the full context? It's the full passage, every verse.

So, here's a commentary, and also the full passage, in 2 links.

Since full reading with a true listening always is the first thing we should do:

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 9:57-62 - New International Version

The Cost of Following Jesus - As they were walking along the road, a man said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.” Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.” He said to another man, “Follow me.” But he replied, “Lord, first let...

www.biblegateway.com

Then, just in case still needed (and I've often checked on commentaries, so it's not a bad 2nd step in my view)

What did Jesus mean when He said “Let the dead bury the dead” (Luke 9:60)? | GotQuestions.org

What did Jesus mean when He said “Let the dead bury the dead” (Luke 9:60)? Aren’t Jesus’ words “let the dead bury the dead” harsh?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[BurningBush84]

For this (very familiar verse I've had to consider at times in real life, here), just read in context and really listen in context, the surrounding verses that give it its exact meaning. (and it's perfectly ok to also look at commentaries, as for instance at Bible Hub) What is the full context? It's the full passage, every verse.

So, here's a commentary, and also the full passage, in 2 links.

Since full reading with a true listening always is the first thing we should do:

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 9:57-62 - New International Version

The Cost of Following Jesus - As they were walking along the road, a man said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.” Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.” He said to another man, “Follow me.” But he replied, “Lord, first let...

www.biblegateway.com

Then, just in case still needed (and I've often checked on commentaries, so it's not a bad 2nd step in my view)

What did Jesus mean when He said “Let the dead bury the dead” (Luke 9:60)? | GotQuestions.org

What did Jesus mean when He said “Let the dead bury the dead” (Luke 9:60)? Aren’t Jesus’ words “let the dead bury the dead” harsh?

www.gotquestions.org

It just goes to show that some words can have more than one meaning. But you completely reject that fact when you see the word destroy. You close your mind and tell yourself that destroy only means to annihilate.

Towns are destroyed by tornadoes yet they still exist. Lots of people destroyed their lives with drugs and alcohol but alot of them still exist.

Your calling Hebrews 9:27 a lie .

The 2nd death just means eternal separation from God.

 

[BurningBush84]

For this (very familiar verse I've had to consider at times in real life, here), just read in context and really listen in context, the surrounding verses that give it its exact meaning. (and it's perfectly ok to also look at commentaries, as for instance at Bible Hub) What is the full context? It's the full passage, every verse.

So, here's a commentary, and also the full passage, in 2 links.

Since full reading with a true listening always is the first thing we should do:

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 9:57-62 - New International Version

The Cost of Following Jesus - As they were walking along the road, a man said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.” Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.” He said to another man, “Follow me.” But he replied, “Lord, first let...

www.biblegateway.com

Then, just in case still needed (and I've often checked on commentaries, so it's not a bad 2nd step in my view)

What did Jesus mean when He said “Let the dead bury the dead” (Luke 9:60)? | GotQuestions.org

What did Jesus mean when He said “Let the dead bury the dead” (Luke 9:60)? Aren’t Jesus’ words “let the dead bury the dead” harsh?

www.gotquestions.org

So why is the 3rd death called the second death ??

I'm happy to be able to report from reading through all the bible 3 times that doctrinal theories like that one and the others that disagree also are none of them in the text as some summary word/phrase like 'annihilation' or 'eternal conscious torment'.

The text is superior to our theories. We should trust it.


Indeed I do trust the words of scripture telling us precisely that.

Do you know those (many) verses?...

Look (if to refresh or as new, either way):

What Does the Bible Say About The Second Death?

Bible verses about The Second Death

www.openbible.info

As you can see it's not only 1 or 2 verses that talk about the "second death".

It's the Bible that talks about the "second death" for those that are unacceptable to God.

So using your reasoning, the second death should actually be called the 3rd death.

Spiritual death =1
Physical death = 2
Lake of Fire/Annihilation = 3

 

[Halbhh]

It just goes to show that some words can have more than one meaning. But you completely reject that fact when you see the word destroy. You close your mind and tell yourself that destroy only means to annihilate.

Towns are destroyed by tornadoes yet they still exist. Lots of people destroyed their lives with drugs and alcohol but alot of them still exist.

Your calling Hebrews 9:27 a lie .

The 2nd death just means eternal separation from God.

Of course only an atheist would call Hebrews 9:27 a lie....please refrain from breaking the rule to us in Matthew 7:12 (take time to pray the Lord's prayer in Matthew 6, as a normal thing to do each day, for your the aid each of us need each day) (and you'll need to repent of that wrong of making a false accusation that anyone who is a believer would try to call Hebrews 9:27 a lie -- don't skip this necessary repentance (1rst John chapter 1))

Now, any theory that is based on ignoring some verses is going to be wrong (even the best case where it's partly right, but incomplete in some key way...).

I would never try to ignore Hebrews chapter 9 (and just to help you realize I don't ignore it, I try to read any book in the New Testament I've read the least soon or next, so at this point I've read Hebrews at least 5 times, including with multiple commentaires twice in bible study groups)

=====================
Here I was going to copy/paste Hebrews 9 so we can read it together, and discuss what is read, but I realize you need to attend to what's above instead....

Please let me know if and when you are repented of that wrong and won't be repeating that wrong of falsely accusing others in such a way (or any similar).

 

[Der Alte]

In this seeming parable, the "bosom of Abraham" is used to represent heaven, perhaps because that would be a metaphor or figurative wording that would best communicate to the Jewish listeners Christ was speaking to at that moment. While the situation of the rich man in the apparent parable might seem to be like the Catholic idea of purgatory (and maybe it is!...), maybe one very reasonable guess we can make is that this is in a time before the Final Judgment, so that the rich man here is in a place that reminds of the "spirits in prison" of 1rst Peter 3:18-20, akin to purgatory even...even if it turns out that in the final Judgement he might well be consigned to the "second death", to "perish" in the fire that will "destroy body and soul" finally.

A parable is a specific kind of figure of speech. In all uncontested parables there is a comparison of something known/understood to explain something unknown/not understood. e.g. "the kingdom of heaven is like unto a sower sowing seed..." AFAIK There is no scripture to support your final conclusion "in the final Judgement he might well be consigned to the 'second death', to 'perish' in the fire that will 'destroy body and soul' finally."

 

[BurningBush84]

Of course only an atheist would call Hebrews 9:27 a lie....please refrain from breaking the rule to us in Matthew 7:12 (take time to pray the Lord's prayer in Matthew 6, as a normal thing to do each day, for your the aid each of us need each day) (and you'll need to repent of that wrong of making a false accusation that anyone who is a believer would try to call Hebrews 9:27 a lie -- don't skip this necessary repentance (1rst John chapter 1))

Now, any theory that is based on ignoring some verses is going to be wrong (even the best case where it's partly right, but incomplete in some key way...).

I would never try to ignore Hebrews chapter 9 (and just to help you realize I don't ignore it, I try to read any book in the New Testament I've read the least soon or next, so at this point I've read Hebrews at least 5 times, including with multiple commentaires twice in bible study groups)

=====================
Here I was going to copy/paste Hebrews 9 so we can read it together, and discuss what is read, but I realize you need to attend to what's above instead....

Please let me know if and when you are repented of that wrong and won't be repeating that wrong of falsely accusing others in such a way (or any similar).

Sorry I hurt your feelings Halbhh, I should have worded it better. I should have said, "it seems to me that your indirectly saying Hebrews 9:27 is a contradiction".

 

[Jipsah]

I don't see the word annihilation anywhere in the Bible.

You do see "destroy", though. "fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Yio don't see anywhere in the Bible where everyone has eternal life by default, do you? But you, and all eternal conscious torment folks do. St. Paul sets the choice quite explicitly, either eternal life as a gift from God, or death. And yeah, you can go nto weasel mode that "death doesn't really mean death", or say that God can destroy body and soul in hell, but doesn't say that He will. Right up there with "depends on what 'is' means", pure sea-lawyering.

Things can endure destruction and still exist.

destroy
dĭ-stroi′
intransitive verb

1. To break apart the structure of, render physically unusable, or cause to cease to exist as a distinguishable physical entity:
2. To put an end to; eliminate.
3. To render useless or ruin.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition

 

[BurningBush84]

You do see "destroy", though. "fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Yio don't see anywhere in the Bible where everyone has eternal life by default, do you? But you, and all eternal conscious torment folks do. St. Paul sets the choice quite explicitly, either eternal life as a gift from God, or death. And yeah, you can go nto weasel mode that "death doesn't really mean death", or say that God can destroy body and soul in hell, but doesn't say that He will. Right up there with "depends on what 'is' means", pure sea-lawyering.

destroy
dĭ-stroi′
intransitive verb

1. To break apart the structure of, render physically unusable, or cause to cease to exist as a distinguishable physical entity:
2. To put an end to; eliminate.
3. To render useless or ruin.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition

How can the dead bury the dead if the dead don't exist ???? Explain Luke 9:60

A tornado recently destroyed some towns in the south. Does that mean those towns don't exist anymore?????

 

[BurningBush84]

Right before Jesus died on the cross his body was destroyed . Yet he still spoke some words even though his body was destroyed (sustained heavy damage) Luke 23:43,46/ John 19:30

 

[Jipsah]

How can the dead bury the dead if the dead don't exist ???? Explain Luke 9:60

Context, OM. "The line went dead." "It's a dead end." "dead center". "dead solid perfect." Anyway, the word in the Scripture is a noun, "the wages of sin is death". Not nearly so many shades of meaning; it's the end of life.

A tornado recently destroyed some towns in the south. Does that mean those towns don't exist anymore?????

Yep. Unless they're rebuilt, they're gone. Rolling Fork has probably been destroyed, gone forever. The Readyville Tennessee that was is gone, end of, destroyed. Others be rebuilt. Was the City of Hiroshima destroyed? Yep. The city standing there now was built from the ground up. But if you feel like arguing definitions with a dictionary, wear yourself out.

 

[BurningBush84]

Context, OM. "The line went dead." "It's a dead end." "dead center". "dead solid perfect." Anyway, the word in the Scripture is a noun, "the wages of sin is death". Not nearly so many shades of meaning; it's the end of life.

Yep. Unless they're rebuilt, they're gone. Rolling Fork has probably been destroyed, gone forever. The Readyville Tennessee that was is gone, end of, destroyed. Others be rebuilt. Was the City of Hiroshima destroyed? Yep. The city standing there now was built from the ground up. But if you feel like arguing definitions with a dictionary, wear yourself out.

Those who don't exist cannot bury anybody. There is no Rolling Fork ? Then why does it still have a zip code ? Destroyed just means to endure heavy damage. If God meant annihilation then he wouldn't have told us a story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. He wouldn't have used the word "once" in Hebrews 9:27. He wouldn't have used the language he did in Matthew 18:8 and Matthew 25:41,46. Revelation 14:11. No sense in using that kind of language if annihilation was true.

Right before Jesus died on the cross his body was destroyed . Yet he still spoke some words even though his body was destroyed (sustained heavy damage) Luke 23:43,46/ John 19:30

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have some questions for those who believe that hell is a real place and that the wicked will be punished forever. What would be the purpose of this? What does it accomplish? How does this give glory to God? Why would God require the wicked dead to suffer forever?

I am not looking to debate whether or not hell is real. I don't believe it is; others do. I'm not looking for somebody to prove hell is real. What I seek is Scripture-based answers, answers using verses. I don't want opinions or speculations.

I wonder if that camp even thinks about these questions. It is clear in Scripture that unforgiven sinners will be punished for their sins. Jesus was punished on the cross for sins. He paid the price of the punishment for sins. Yet, did he not die? And with his death, did not the punishment for sins end? If you use the rationale that the punishment for sins is never to end, doesn't that mean that Jesus would still be on the cross, still being punished for sins, until today? And beyond today into eternity?
Without a doubt, there have been many, many wicked people in the history of mankind. Individuals, governments, religions, criminals, warlords, etc., are personally responsible for countless deaths. And the many others who have caused incredible pain and suffering. People who should have been made to suffer great punishment while alive. It is also true that God dealt out some severe punishments in the Old Testament.

Let's move on from all of that. So Jesus has returned and judged all of the goats. So, what happens next? There is no way that all goats are equally guilty of the same evil deeds, quantity or degree. Your vision of Dante's Infernal aside, Scripture makes no mention of what type of punishment or if there are different degrees of punishment awaiting the goats, so we must deduce that the punishment is the same type for all of the goats. So, will a man who abused his children, committed adultery, and embezzled money from his job be punished the same as Hitler or Stalin? Or a woman who was a junkie, defrauded the government, stole widows' social security checks, and robbed men for kicks is going to pay the same price as Pol Pot or Mao?
According to the narrative, every goat in hell will be punished forever and ever. Not just a hundred years, a thousand, a million but trillions of years? Doesn't that seem like overkill? Doesn't that seem beyond excessive? God can do as He sees fit, of course. So no amount of punishment ever fits the crimes, right? A thousand years of 24/7, excruciating, non-stop pain and agony isn't even close to being enough punishment, right? Not a thousand, not a million, not a trillion years is even close to unforgiven sin ever being paid for?
This is what you people believe. The idea that God would simply destroy all the goats after judgment day just doesn't make any sense, does it? According to you, God has no mercy and no sense of justice. Just "Let 'em burn," right? "Let them suffer forever," right? To me, this makes God out to be the most sadistic, mean, and petty tyrant one could ever imagine.
And yet, why would God do this? Everything God has done, is doing and will do is because He has a reason to do so. What would be the reason for hell? Everything that God started is going to come to an end and God is going to start over; any traces of the old world and the taint of man and sin will have been eradicated and forgotten. Does God want to keep a reminder of sinful men around? Is hell going to be there as a warning to the saints, who after the resurrection, will never commit sin again? I'm just trying to put this puzzle of ever-lasting punishment together. I'm hoping one of you can explain it to me, using Scripture of course!

You may find this thread helpful and or comforting.

A Defense of Dualistic Conditional Immortality

Introduction: I believe in “Dualistic Conditional Immortality,” and not “Traditional Conditional Immortality.” I used to believe in “Eternal Torment” (i.e. Eternal Conscious Torment) and even defended it at one time, but I have come to find this belief to be both unbiblical and immoral. I...

www.christianforums.com

 

[BurningBush84]

Context, OM. "The line went dead." "It's a dead end." "dead center". "dead solid perfect." Anyway, the word in the Scripture is a noun, "the wages of sin is death". Not nearly so many shades of meaning; it's the end of life.

Yep. Unless they're rebuilt, they're gone. Rolling Fork has probably been destroyed, gone forever. The Readyville Tennessee that was is gone, end of, destroyed. Others be rebuilt. Was the City of Hiroshima destroyed? Yep. The city standing there now was built from the ground up. But if you feel like arguing definitions with a dictionary, wear yourself out.

You said death always means annihilation

Context, OM. "The line went dead." "It's a dead end." "dead center". "dead solid perfect." Anyway, the word in the Scripture is a noun, "the wages of sin is death". Not nearly so many shades of meaning; it's the end of life.

Yep. Unless they're rebuilt, they're gone. Rolling Fork has probably been destroyed, gone forever. The Readyville Tennessee that was is gone, end of, destroyed. Others be rebuilt. Was the City of Hiroshima destroyed? Yep. The city standing there now was built from the ground up. But if you feel like arguing definitions with a dictionary, wear yourself out.

You told mean death always means annihilation. So how can the dead bury the dead ? Did those tornado hit cities and towns disappear ???? Annihilation means to COMPLETELY disappear. Those tornado hit towns are still there,. Things just got scattered. Just because things got damaged and scattered doesn't mean they disappeared out of thin air .

Jesus body got destroyed on the cross but he still granted eternal life to the thief and still prayed to his father to committ his spirit and still said those famous words ,"it is finished"",. He said that even though his body was already destroyed.

Annihilation means Resting In Peace forever. Is that what Jesus saved mankind from ???? Resting in Peace ???

Read Revelation 21:4 . Did Jesus save mankind from Revelation 21:4 ???? Annihilation gives you revelation 21:4. Is that what Jesus saved us from ? Jesus saved us from Revelation 21:4 ???..

 

[Davy]

I have some questions for those who believe that hell is a real place and that the wicked will be punished forever. What would be the purpose of this? What does it accomplish? How does this give glory to God? Why would God require the wicked dead to suffer forever?

He doesn't burn them forever, it's the smoke... of their burning that goes up forever. See Psalms 37 which shows that when Satan and the wicked are cast into the fire, they simply are 'no more'.

 

[timothyu]

Residue