Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?

[Butch5]

To say the 10 commandments were never a part of the Mosaic Law is absurd. Revelation 21:4 proves your interpretation of Matthew 18:8 is wrong.

I didn't say the 10 Commandments weren't part of the of the Mosaic. I said they are not "ordinances". Maybe I wasn't clear. To give a sacrifice is to do something. It's the rituals of the Mosaic Law that were said to be forever. That's why I asked you should Christians go and offer sacrifices at the Temple. Many of these are translated as being forever when they've clearly ended. Again, how can something be forever when it has ended?

 

[BurningBush84]

I didn't say the 10 Commandments weren't part of the of the Mosaic. I said they are not "ordinances". Maybe I wasn't clear. To give a sacrifice is to do something. It's the rituals of the Mosaic Law that were said to be forever. That's why I asked you should Christians go and offer sacrifices at the Temple. Many of these are translated as being forever when they've clearly ended. Again, how can something be forever when it has ended?

So when the Bible says Jesus would be a Priest forever, that's a lie ?

 

[BurningBush84]

"And these shall go away to punishment age-enduring, but the righteous to life age-enduring."

Makes no sense. You go ahead and tell yourself that only the YLT is the correct translation. JW's do the same thing with the NWT. They also interpret Luke 16 the exact same way you do .

 

[Der Alte]

Don't ever think bias is eliminated, it's not. I've already explained this. I asked you how something eternal can end? You didn't answer. Can something that is eternal end? If not, then aion cannot mean eternal because Jesus, Paul, and the other apostles all talk about the end of the aion.
So, what we have is translators saying the aion does not end and Jesus, Paul, and the other apostles, saying it does end. You just have to decide who you're going to believe. Do you believe that modern translators better understand koine Greek than Jesus, Paul, and the other apostles, who actually spoke the language every day? If so, then go on believing it means eternal. However, if you choose to believe, Jesus, Paul, and the other apostles then you're going to have to believe it doesn't mean eternal and figure how to reconcile the different passages. As for me, I believe Jesus, Paul, and the other apostles, had a much better understanding of the language than any scholar today.

What you said in incorrect. The word [αιων] "aion" occurs in the NT 128 times. Do you have any idea how many times "aion" is actually said to end in the N.T. and who said it? Jesus only said the "aion" would end 4 times. The writer of Hebrews said the "aion" would end, only one time.

Matthew 13:39​

(39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world;[αιων] and the reapers are the angels.​

Matthew 13:40​

(40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.[αιων]​

Matthew 13:49​

(49) So shall it be at the end of the world: [αιων] the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,​

Matthew 28:20​

(20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.[αιων] Amen.​

Hebrews 9:26​

(26) For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world [αιων] hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.​

In one verse Jesus said of the αιων/aion there shall be no end.

Luke 1:33​

(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει, verb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιων] and of his kingdom βασιλειας, noun] there shall be no end.​

In Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich [BDAG] Greek lexicon the definition of aion is three pages long.

αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ (Hom.+; gener. ‘an extended period of time’, in var. senses)​

① a long period of time, without ref. to beginning or end,​

ⓐ of time gone by, the past, earliest times, readily​

The subsection pertaining to eternity.

ⓑ of time to come which, if it has no end, is also known as eternity (so commonly in Gk. lit. Pla. et al.); εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα (since Isocr. 10, 62, also Diod S 1, 56, 1 εἰς τ. αἰ.=εἰς ἅπαντα τ. χρόνον; 4, 1, 4; SIG 814, 49 and OGI index VIII; POxy 41, 30=‘Long live the Caesars’; PGM 8, 33; 4, 1051 [εἰς αἰ.]; LXX; En 12:6; 102:3; PsSol 2:34, 37; ParJer 8:5; JosAs 15:3 εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα χρόνον 4:10 al. Jos., Ant. 7, 356 [εἰς αἰ.]) to eternity, eternally, in perpetuity: live J 6:51, 58; B 6:3; remain J 8:35ab; 12:34; 2 Cor 9:9 (Ps 111:9); 1 Pt 1:23 v.l., 25 (Is 40:8); 1J 2:17; 2J 2; be with someone J 14:16. Be priest Hb 5:6; 6:20; 7:17, 21, 24, 28 (each Ps 109:4). Darkness reserved Jd 13. W. neg.=never, not at all, never again (Ps 124:1; Ezk 27:36 al.) Mt 21:19; Mk 3:29; 11:14; 1 Cor 8:13. ἕως αἰῶνος (LXX) 1 Cl 10:4 (Gen 13:15); Hv 2, 3, 3; Hs 9, 24, 4. In Johannine usage the term is used formulaically without emphasis on eternity (Lackeit [s. 4 below] 32f): never again thirst J 4:14; never see death 8:51f; cp. 11:26; never be lost 10:28; never (= by no means) 13:8. εἰς τὸν αἰ. τοῦ αἰῶνος (Ps 44:18; 82:18 al.) Hb 1:8 (Ps 44:7). ἕως αἰῶνος (LXX; PsSol 18:11) Lk 1:55 v.l. (for εἰς τὸν αἰ.); εἰς ἡμέραν αἰῶνος 2 Pt 3:18.—The pl. is also used (Emped., Fgm. 129, 6 αἰῶνες=generations; Theocr. 16, 43 μακροὺς αἰῶνας=long periods of time; Philod. περὶ θεῶν 3 Fgm. 84; Sext. Emp., Phys. 1, 62 εἰς αἰῶνας διαμένει; SibOr 3, 767; LXX, En; TestAbr B 7 p. 112, 3 [Stone p. 72].—B-D-F §141, 1), esp. in doxologies: εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας (Ps 60:5; 76:8) Mt 6:13 v.l.; Lk 1:33 (cp. Wsd 3:8); Hb 13:8. εἰς πάντας τοὺς αἰ. (Tob 13:4; Da 3:52b; En 9:4; SibOr 3, 50) Jd 25b. εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας to all eternity (cp. Ps 88:53) Ro 1:25; 9:5; 2 Cor 11:31. αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰ. Ro 11:36; ᾧ κτλ. 16:27 (v.l. αὐτῷ). τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰ. 1 Pt 5:11; more fully εἰς τοὺς αἰ. τῶν αἰώνων (Ps 83:5; GrBar 17:4; PGM 4, 1038; 22b, 15) for evermore in doxologies Ro 16:27 v.l.; Gal 1:5; Phil 4:20; 1 Ti 1:17; 2 Ti 4:18; Hb 13:21; 1 Pt 4:11; 5:11 v.l.; Rv 1:6, 18; 5:13; 7:12; 11:15 al. 1 Cl 20:12; 32:4; 38:4; 43:6; εἰς πάσας τὰς γενεὰς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰ. Eph 3:21 (cp. Tob 1:4; 13:12; En 103:4; 104:5). Of God ὁ ζῶν εἰς τοὺς αἰ. (cp. Tob 13:2; Sir 18:1; Da 6:27 Theod.) Rv 4:9f; 10:6; 15:7; formulaically=eternal 14:11; 19:3; 20:10; 22:5.—κατὰ πρόθεσιν τῶν αἰώνων according to the eternal purpose Eph 3:11. All-inclusive ἀπὸ αἰώνων καὶ εἰς τ. αἰῶνας from (past) eternity to (future) eternity B 18:2 (cp. Ps 40:14 and Ps.-Aristot., De Mundo 7, 401a, 16 ἐξ αἰῶνος ἀτέρμονος εἰς ἕτερον αἰῶνα; M. Ant. 9, 28, 1 ἐξ αἰῶνος εἰς αἰῶνα;SibOr Fgm. 1, 16 of God μόνος εἰς αἰῶνα κ. ἐξ αἰῶνος).​

= = = = =

② a segment of time as a particular② a segment of time as a particular unit of history, age​

ⓐ ὁ αἰὼν οὗτος (הָעוֹלָם הַזֶּה) the present age (nearing its end)​

ⓑ ὁ αἰὼν μέλλων (הָעוֹלָם הַבָּא) the age to come, the Messianic period​

③ the world as a spatial concept, the world (​

④ the Aeon as a person, the Aeon (​

 

[Butch5]

So when the Bible says Jesus would be a Priest forever, that's a lie ?

It doesn't say Jesus would be a priest forever. It says Jesus would be a priest, age enduring, or during the age.

 

[Butch5]

"And these shall go away to punishment age-enduring, but the righteous to life age-enduring."

Makes no sense. You go ahead and tell yourself that only the YLT is the correct translation. JW's do the same thing with the NWT. They also interpret Luke 16 the exact same way you do .

If it makes no sense then you should research it until you understand. Because that's what the Greek literally says.

 

[BurningBush84]

It doesn't say Jesus would be a priest forever. It says Jesus would be a priest, age enduring, or during th

If it makes no sense then you should research it until you understand. Because that's what the Greek literally says.

And the NWT says Jesus was a god.

 

[Butch5]

And the NWT says Jesus was a god.

That really doesn't have anything to do with you understanding age enduring

 

[BurningBush84]

That really doesn't have anything to do with you understanding age enduring

It's you telling me Robert Young was smarter than 10,000 scholars with different beliefs. It's you telling me God allows only a couple faithful Bibles , therefore the rest are misinformation/ disinformation.

. If it's not eternal or forever than there is no eternal life.

 

[Butch5]

It's you telling me Robert Young was smarter than 10,000 scholars with different beliefs. It's you telling me God allows only a couple faithful Bibles , therefore the rest are misinformation/ disinformation.

. If it's not eternal or forever than there is no eternal life.

I said no such thing. You're making assumptions. I simply said aion doesn't mean eternal. The translators that translate it eternal are wrong. Yes, they are wrong. We don't need 10 thousand translations or 10 thousand scholars. It's simple common sense. Something that ends cannot be eternal. Ask yourself a question, why do they change English words when enteral doesn't fit?

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Matthew 13:49
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 28:20
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Hebrews 9:26
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 13:39–Heb 9:26.

In each of these verses the word "world" is aion. If it means eternal, why didn't they translate it as, the end of the eternity? It's obvious why they didn't. It makes no sense. If something is eternal it doesn't end. So, what did they do? They changed the word. The word aion doesn't mean world. It means an age. So, not only have they wrongly translated the word to mean eternal to fit their theology, they also wrongly translated it to world where it doesn't fit their theology.

 

[Servus]

"And these shall go away to punishment age-enduring, but the righteous to life age-enduring."

Makes no sense.

Neither does eternal life vs eternal life.

Also as I've pointed out, if Matthew 25:31-46 is to be taken completely literally, then those who do whatever to help one person, go away to eternal life.

 

[Der Alte]

It doesn't say Jesus would be a priest forever. It says Jesus would be a priest, age enduring, or during the age.

I think you are relying on the YLT. FYI Robert Young who "translated" the YLT was self taught in Greek and Hebrew. I don't know about you but I would not rely on a MD or lawyer who was self taught. The Greek word "aionios" is an adjective why is it that "aionios" is the only adjective in Greek which requires a a noun and preposition to translate it? The answer is because about 200 years ago some guy who taught himself Greek said it was.

 

[Der Alte]

Neither does eternal life vs eternal life.
Also as I've pointed out, if Matthew 25:31-46 is to be taken completely literally, then those who do whatever to help one person, go away to eternal life.

Only if you ignore every other vs. in the N.T.!
Does you Bible only have that one vs.?

 

[Der Alte]

It doesn't say Jesus would be a priest forever. It says Jesus would be a priest, age enduring, or during the age.

If it makes no sense then you should research it until you understand. Because that's what the Greek literally says.

You tell someone they should research it when you have not done so yourself. You found one "source" YLT which tells you what you want to hear and ignore everything else. That is not research. Jesus, Himself, said 10 times "aionios life" means "shall not perish."
Link to previous post with complete definition of "aionios" from Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon. about 120-160 years of combined scholarship.

Daily Christian Universalist Verses

Good. Now show me where Josiah said that? It ain't in the Bible. You are the one that is not careful, choosing questionable sources because they support your assumptions/presuppositions. Did you even bother to read the sources I posted, with links, which included archaeological evidence? There...

www.christianforums.com

 

[BurningBush84]

Butch5 , the YLT of Matthew 25:46 makes no sense.

"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'"

So Matthew 25:46 is saying the righteous will NOT be getting eternal life ??

What about if I want to believe in Universal Annihilation. Everyone will eventually be annihilated. Because eternal life just means life in age-during . Whatever that means. So therefore the Bible teaches universal Annihilation.

 

[BurningBush84]

Your reasoning is flawed. Technically "a God" is a possible translation. It's not a good one, but it possible. But that's not the point I was making. My point is that Just because a majority may claim something, it doesn't necessitate that's its true.

What makes you think the NWT got John 1:1 wrong ?

 

[Halbhh]

will a man who abused his children, committed adultery, and embezzled money from his job be punished the same as Hitler or Stalin? Or a woman who was a junkie, defrauded the government, stole widows' social security checks, and robbed men for kicks is going to pay the same price as Pol Pot or Mao?

Did you get this answered?

If you did get it answered, perhaps someone quoted then one of the various scriptures that directly say that those suffering there (until they cease to exist) will only pay for their deeds, only, and not more, and only to the last penny of what they owe, and not more than that.

Did you get that answered satisfactorily, to resolve your reasonable (and right to ask about) objection to what had seemed it might be some unfair punishment?

 

[Der Alte]

If it makes no sense then you should research it until you understand. Because that's what the Greek literally says.

I have had 2 semesters of graduate level Greek and Greek literally says no such thing! I know you have found something, somewhere which says what you claim but here are the relevant vss. from the Eastern Greek orthodox Bible, EOB. Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church for 2000 yrs +/- Also Psalm 110:4 from the 1917 Jewish Publication Society OT JPS, which Heb was quoting.

EOB Heb 5:6 As he says also in another place: Thou are a priest forever, According to the order of Melchizedek.
JPS Psalms 110:4
(4) The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent: 'Thou art a priest for ever after the manner of Melchizedek.​

Links to both versions.

Orthodox New Testament : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Eastern / Orthodox Bible: New TestamentBased on the Septuagint and the Patriarchal Text

archive.org

Psalm 110 JPS Tanakh 1917

biblehub.com

 

[BurningBush84]

"and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.".
Youngs Literal Translation of Revelation 14:11

No rest means no rest .

 

[Der Alte]

What makes you think the NWT got John 1:1 wrong ?

I like these kind of questions. Here is how the Eastern Greek Orthodox church translates John 1:1

EOB Prologue: The Logos / Word of God
1. In the beginning was the Word, 3 and the Word was with God, and the Word was {what} God b {was}.​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church for 2000 years +/- years,
Link to EOB

Orthodox New Testament : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Eastern / Orthodox Bible: New TestamentBased on the Septuagint and the Patriarchal Text

archive.org