Annihilation=No Wrath

[Der Alte]

When we quote Luke 16:19-31, you guys just say, "well...... That's just a parable". As if Jesus only spoke parables when he was drunk off his you know what .

You are correct, and they even object to your post here. In my 2 decades + at CF any time Luke 16:19-31 is quoted it is almost instantaneously dismissed as a parable, as if merely saying the word parable answers something. Jesus never spoke a parable about anything nonfactual. Sometime in history a widow found some lost coins and was happy. A shepherd found a lost sheep, a son squandered his inheritance etc. A parable must involve something which is or could be factual, not fairy tales etc.

 

[BurningBush84]

Does your chair benefit from the fact that it does not feel sad today?

If you believe so, then I can understand what you mean. For me, it does not make sense to use the word "benefits" in this sense, though.

Is a virgin who gets a vasectomy punishing his future children by depriving them of life ?????

 

[BurningBush84]

Suicide is the worst thing one can do to oneself. Suicide is so bad everyone tries to prevent someone from doing it. Unless that is someone drives someone else to suicide, because they hate them so much, and driving them to suicide is the worst thing they can do to them.

But why do they commit suicide? Because they think suicide is the only way out. . Out of what ? They are trying to escape LIFE.

"Here on earth you will have many trials and sorrows." John 16:33

 

[trophy33]

Is a virgin who gets a vasectomy punishing his future children by depriving them of life ?????

There are no future children, so no. Future that does not happen also does not exist.

Also, it could not be a punishment, because punishment cannot precede the act it punishes.

 

[BurningBush84]

There are no future children, so no. Future that does not happen also does not exist.

Also, it could not be a punishment, because punishment cannot precede the act it punishes.

I was using similar reasoning to how you interpret Matthew 25:46. The annihilated do not exist. Its as if they never were. You cannot punish what doesn't exist. You just proved that to me.

 

[trophy33]

I was using similar reasoning to how you interpret Matthew 25:46. The annihilated do not exist. Its as if they never were. You cannot punish what doesn't exist. You just proved that to me.

They did exist, thats the difference. And they were punished with ceasing to exist, with their consciousness being taken from them.

The death penalty.

 

[trophy33]

But why do they commit suicide? Because they think suicide is the only way out. . Out of what ? They are trying to escape LIFE.

"Here on earth you will have many trials and sorrows." John 16:33

The poor souls that were so under pressure in this life that they overcame the basic survival instinct that is coded deeply into us. God have mercy upon them.

Nobody is arguing that the death penalty is the most cruel or the worst possible punishment, always worse than painful life. Thats not the point.

 

[BurningBush84]

They did exist, thats the difference. And they were punished with ceasing to exist, with their consciousness being taken from them.

The death penalty.

Yet you say annihilation is as if they never were. Nothing exists to the non existent. Not even punishment. Punishment does not exist for the non existent. Revelation 21:4 tells us the great unique gifts of heaven. Heaven is the best gift. Annihilation must be the 2nd best gift. Because if annihilation is punishment , Then Revelation 21:4 must be describing punishment.

Do the annihilated ever cry or mourn or feel sadness ? No.
Do the annihilated ever have to worry about death or watch their loved ones die ? No.
Will the annihilated ever feel pain ever again ? No.

If eternal punishment means receiving annihilation. Then Annihilation means you also indirectly receive the great unique benefits of Revelation 21:4.

I wouldn't call the benefits of Revelation 21:4 punishment. We are talking about what does or does not happen after we had our life on earth. " “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony." Luke 16

 

[BurningBush84]

The poor souls that were so under pressure in this life that they overcame the basic survival instinct that is coded deeply into us. God have mercy upon them.

Nobody is arguing that the death penalty is the most cruel or the worst possible punishment, always worse than painful life. Thats not the point.

They commit suicide because they think they will get the unique benefits described in Revelation 21:4.
They wont feel anymore pain or sadness ever again. Annihilation is no punishment. If annihilation was a punishment people would never commit suicide .

 

[trophy33]

Yet you say annihilation is as if they never were.

What post of mine do you have in mind?

 

[trophy33]

They commit suicide because they think they will get the unique benefits described in Revelation 21:4.
They wont feel anymore pain or sadness ever again. Annihilation is no punishment. If annihilation was a punishment people would never commit suicide .

There are various possible levels of punishment. I do not claim that death is the worst possible punishment.

What I have a problem with is your formulation - that people benefit, while they do not exist anymore. Yes, they do not cry, but they also do not experience joy. They do not experience anything.

 

[BurningBush84]

There are various possible levels of punishment. I do not claim that death is the worst possible punishment.

What I have a problem with is your formulation - that they benefit, while they do not exist anymore. Yes, they do not cry, but they also do not experience joy. They do not experience anything.

Bottom line is the annihilated INDIRECTLY get the unique benefits described in Revelation 21:4.

Therefore annihilation is no punishment whatsoever. Annihilation is a gracious blessing.

Eternal punishment is the complete opposite of Revelation 21:4.

 

[trophy33]

Bottom line is the annihilated INDIRECTLY get the unique benefits described in Revelation 21:4.

Therefore annihilation is no punishment whatsoever. Annihilation is a gracious blessing.

Eternal punishment is the complete opposite of Revelation 21:4.

Imagine a rich man who has worries about his investments. He can be punished for some financial crime with his money being taken from him. Yes, he does not worry about his investments anymore, because they are gone. Was he not punished, then?

We can change our point of view from many angles and we can always find some good thing on any bad thing. Some Greek philosophers were good at it. It may lead to some misleading conclusions, though.

 

[BurningBush84]

Imagine a rich man who has worries about his investments. He can be punished for some financial crime with his money being taken from him. Yes, he does not worry about his investments anymore, because they are gone. Was he not punished, then?

We can change our point of view from many angles and we can always find some good thing on any bad thing. Some Greek philosophers were good at it. It may lead to some misleading conclusions, though.

Well Matthew 18:8 shows my point of view is the right direction. When a person commits suicide they think they will be getting the unique benefits described in Rev 21:4. But your point of view says self mutilation would be better than feeling no more sadness or pain. We both know that makes no sense. Try telling a suicidal person that self mutilation would be better than feeling no more sadness or pain.

 

[trophy33]

Well Matthew 18:8 shows my point of view is the right direction. When a person commits suicide they think they will be getting the unique benefits described in Rev 21:4. But your point of view says self mutilation would be better than feeling no more sadness or pain. We both know that makes no sense. Try telling a suicidal person that self mutilation would be better than feeling no more sadness or pain.

I do not understand what you are saying, but to use another example, closer to your thinking:

Imagine somebody will be injured and his legs will need to be amputated. Will you say - "Look, now he got the same benefits as a rich kid, because he does not need to worry about shoes, its the same benefit!"

Its absurd, of course. The tragedy of losing legs is greater than the tiny advantage of not needing to worry about shoes. Absurd in the same meaning as saying that the dead ones without life have the same benefits as the people in the kingdom of God, just because both groups do not cry or feel pain. Being dead and without pain is worse than being alive and without pain. If you still continue to say its the same, then I do not know what else to say and I will leave you to that.

 

[BurningBush84]

I do not understand what you are saying, but to use another example, closer to your thinking:

Imagine somebody will be injured and his legs will need to be amputated. Will you say - "Look, now he got the same benefits as a rich kid, because he does not need to worry about shoes, its the same benefit!"

Its absurd, of course. The tragedy of losing legs is greater than the tiny advantage of not needing to worry about shoes. Absurd in the same meaning as saying that the dead ones without life have the same benefits as the people in the kingdom of God, just because both groups do not cry or feel pain. Being dead and without pain is worse than being alive and without pain. If you still continue to say its the same, then I do not know what else to say and I will leave you to that.

Like I said, we are not talking about this life. We are talking about the afterlife. "“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony." Luke 16

 

[trophy33]

Like I said, we are not talking about this life. We are talking about the afterlife. "“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony." Luke 16

I already responded to the story of Lazarus in the post #187 (Annihilation=No Wrath)

And in the post #197 (Annihilation=No Wrath).

 

[BurningBush84]

I already responded to the story of Lazarus in the post #187 (Annihilation=No Wrath)

And in the post #197 (Annihilation=No Wrath).

Bottom line is I believe Jesus is the greatest form of Savior. You don't. You believe Jesus saved mankind from annihilation.

I believe Jesus ultimately saved mankind from eternal torment. My Savior is greater than your savior.

 

[Der Alte]

Bottom line is the annihilated INDIRECTLY get the unique benefits described in Revelation 21:4.
Therefore annihilation is no punishment whatsoever. Annihilation is a gracious blessing.
Eternal punishment is the complete opposite of Revelation 21:4.

Thus spake one of the early church fathers.

Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho a Jew. Chapter IV Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.’

Work info: ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

www.ccel.org

 

[BurningBush84]

I do not understand what you are saying, but to use another example, closer to your thinking:

Imagine somebody will be injured and his legs will need to be amputated. Will you say - "Look, now he got the same benefits as a rich kid, because he does not need to worry about shoes, its the same benefit!"

Its absurd, of course. The tragedy of losing legs is greater than the tiny advantage of not needing to worry about shoes. Absurd in the same meaning as saying that the dead ones without life have the same benefits as the people in the kingdom of God, just because both groups do not cry or feel pain. Being dead and without pain is worse than being alive and without pain. If you still continue to say its the same, then I do not know what else to say and I will leave you to that.

The thing about your examples is they don't happen in real life. But my examples (suicide) do happen in real life, yet you call my examples absurd.

People commit suicide because they think they will be getting the unique benefits described in Revelation 21:4. Matthew 18:8 and
Revelation 21:4 are the complete opposite. Revelation 21:4 proves your interpretation of Matthew 18:8 is absurd.