Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?

[RileyG]

Welcome to CF!
Yes they can, it is called apostasy.

Amen. Remember Judas Iscariot. He rejected Christ.

 

[Rapture Bound]

I may have missed the part that you even picked a side but feel free to answer the question:
Evaluate yourselves to see whether you are in the faith, living as genuine believers.
Do you not yourselves realize that Jesus Christ is in you? (2 Cor 13:5)

"I may have missed the part that you even picked a side"

Well, my entire thread is based upon the defense of "The Preservation of the Saints" by means of the unique contribution of Molinism .... so I really don't see any connection with the verse you posted.

 

[Dah'veed]

"I may have missed the part that you even picked a side"

Well, my entire thread is based upon the defense of "The Preservation of the Saints" by means of the unique contribution of Molinism .... so I really don't see any connection with the verse you posted.

The connection is that outside of faith in Christ (Gal 3:27) there is no possibility of preservation.
At the time you were without Christ, you were estranged from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. Eph 2:12

 

[Rapture Bound]

Amen. Remember Judas Iscariot. He rejected Christ.

Maria Billingsly said [in post #10],"Yes they can, it is called apostasy."

I agree .... "yes they can" - they [regenerated persons] can [apostatize] because they are free moral agents rather than mere puppets ... but, "no they won't" - because God has promised to preserve them by using various means [both positive and negative] that do not override that freedom. They will naturally or organically desire [as opposed to being overridden or constrained by God] to serve and please their Creator and Redeemer as a result of the new nature they received when they first placed their trust in Jesus Christ [2 Corinthians 5:17].

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 :
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be [preserved blameless] unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also [will] do it.

As new creatures in Christ, they receive hearts that are compatible or malleable. Hearts that will be responsive to the various means that God utilizes on their behalf. Therefore, man's free moral agency [although not viewed in an unlimited sense] exists both prior and subsequent to regeneration.

Jeremiah 32:40, "And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me."

Ezekiel 36:26-27 :
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Obviously, there is a type of fear that is not only commendable before the Lord, but necessary as well. It is the type of fear that is experienced by believers when they read any of the many warning passages spread throughout the N.T.[therefore, those warning passages serve as being one of the many means God uses to preserve all of His Children].

It is the same type of fear that is spoken of in Philippians 2:12, " Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Not to worry, every genuine believer is promised that gift of fear - it is intrinsic to their new hearts; what is to worry about is never coming into the possession of it ... and not coming into possession of it, then subsequently losing it].

Also, the new heart/nature that every believer received at their new birth was received as a result of an unforced choice to place their faith in Christ's atoning work. The decision that they made carried with it eternal implications ... and I'm pretty sure that all genuine followers of Christ do not regret that they are now possessions of Jesus Christ ... eternally. Just as some decisions we make in the here and now carry with them irreversible ramifications in the physical realm, so it is in the spiritual. Aren't you glad that trusting in Christ's atoning work for your acceptance [justification] before God is one of them? I sure know I am!

 

[Dah'veed]

RileyG said:
Amen. Remember Judas Iscariot. He rejected Christ.
Maria Billingsly said [in post #10],"Yes they can, it is called apostasy."
I agree .... "yes they can" - they [regenerated persons] can [apostatize] because they are free moral agents rather than mere puppets ... but, "no they won't" - because God has promised to preserve them by using various means [both positive and negative] that do not override that freedom. They will naturally or organically desire [as opposed to being overridden or constrained by God] to serve and please their Creator and Redeemer as a result of the new nature they received when they first placed their trust in Jesus Christ [2 Corinthians 5:17].

Remember that Judas rejected Christ which caused him to forfeit the new nature in Christ.
But God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Cor 8:9

 

[Rapture Bound]

Remember that Judas rejected Christ which caused him to forfeit the new nature in Christ.
But God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Cor 8:9

Sorry to disappoint, but I'm not really interested in going down that draining rabbit hole. Unfortunately, I've already experienced that exercise in futility which seems to be inevitably connected to discussions that involve the question of the genuineness of faith in various people mentioned throughout the scriptures [i.e. - 'were they ever really regenerated individuals?'].

Fortunately, there are other avenues/methods that can be taken to determine the validity of your truth claim concerning Judas. That is to say, I've already provided numerous posts which I believe demonstrates compelling evidence for my claim that not even one genuine believer will ever forfeit [lose] their new nature in Jesus Christ and 'morph' back into their prior [ontological] constitution. We will simply have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Dah'veed]

Sorry to disappoint, but I'm not really interested in going down that draining rabbit hole. Unfortunately, I've already experienced that exercise in futility which seems to be inevitably connected to discussions that involve the question of the genuineness of faith in various people mentioned throughout the scriptures [i.e. - 'were they ever really regenerated individuals?'].

Fortunately, there are other avenues/methods that can be taken to determine the validity of your truth claim concerning Judas.

He who believes will never be disappointed. 1 Peter 2:6

Live properly among your unbelieving neighbors so that they may observe your good works and glorify God on the day of visitation, when Christ is revealed. 1 Peter 2:12
So that they may be partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel. Ephesians 3:4-6

That is to say, I've already provided numerous posts which I believe demonstrates compelling evidence for my claim that not even one genuine believer will ever forfeit [lose] their new nature in Jesus Christ and 'morph' back into their prior [ontological] constitution. We will simply have to agree to disagree on this one.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." John 5:24

 

[Dah'veed]

Sorry to disappoint, but I'm not really interested in going down that draining rabbit hole.

He who believes will never be disappointed. 1 Peter 2:6

Live properly among your unbelieving neighbors so that they may observe your good works and glorify God on the day of visitation, when Christ is revealed. 1 Peter 2:12
So that they may be partakers of the promise in Christ through the gospel. Ephesians 3:4-6

Unfortunately, I've already experienced that exercise in futility which seems to be inevitably connected to discussions that involve the question of the genuineness of faith in various people mentioned throughout the scriptures [i.e. - 'were they ever really regenerated individuals?']. Fortunately, there are other avenues/methods that can be taken to determine the validity of your truth claim concerning Judas.

There is no validity in claiming that someone who betrays the faith is a genuine believer/regenerated. “You are not all washed.”

That is to say, I've already provided numerous posts which I believe demonstrates compelling evidence for my claim that not even one genuine believer will ever forfeit [lose] their new nature in Jesus Christ and 'morph' back into their prior [ontological] constitution. We will simply have to agree to disagree on this one.

But if the Son sets you free, you have a permanent place in the household.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." John 5:24

 

[Rapture Bound]

He who believes will never be disappointed. 1 Peter 2:6

Live properly among your unbelieving neighbors so that they may observe your good works and glorify God on the day of visitation, when Christ is revealed. 1 Peter 2:12
So that they may be partakers of the promise in Christ through the gospel. Ephesians 3:4-6

There is no validity in claiming that someone who betrays the faith is a genuine believer/regenerated. “You are not all washed.”

But if the Son sets you free, you have a permanent place in the household.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." John 5:24

You said - "There is no validity in claiming that someone who betrays the faith is a genuine believer/regenerated. “You are not all washed.”

My reply - There is no validity in claiming that someone "who betrays the faith" , that is, totally and finally renounces the [Christian] faith, was ever a genuine believer.

You said - "But if the Son sets you free, you have a permanent place in the household."

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." John 5:24"

My reply - Agreed, the very moment that the Son sets a person free from the penalty for their sin(s) [i.e. - justification], they not only have a permanent status in the household of God [God's family] ... as a result of God declaring them as [judicially] justified, they will also be set free from the dominion of indwelling sin [experientially]. John 5:24 ... Oh, how I love that verse!!

 

[Dah'veed]

You said - "There is no validity in claiming that someone who betrays the faith is a genuine believer/regenerated. “You are not all washed.”
My reply - There is no validity in claiming that someone "who betrays the faith" , that is, totally and finally renounces the [Christian] faith, was ever a genuine believer.
You said - "But if the Son sets you free, you have a permanent place in the household." John 5:24"
My reply - Agreed, the very moment that the Son sets a person free from the penalty for their sin(s) [i.e. - justification], they not only have a permanent status in the household of God [God's family] ... as a result of God declaring them as [judicially] justified, they will also be set free from the dominion of indwelling sin [experientially]. John 5:24 ... Oh, how I love that verse!!

So what you're saying is that a person who is justified by faith, through Christ receives an inheritance that can never perish, 1 Peter 1:3-5.
"My righteousness will last forever,..." Isa 51:8

 

[Rapture Bound]

So what you're saying is that a person who is justified by faith, through Christ receives an inheritance that can never perish, 1 Peter 1:3-5.
"My righteousness will last forever,..." Isa 51:8

What I'm saying is, as it pertains to the inevitability of receiving a future Heavenly inheritance [i.e. - Heaven itself being the eternal inheritance] ... once a person has been justified through faith in Christ, they will forever remain justified before God [OJAJ - Once Justified, Always Justified]. They will never lose or forfeit that [accounted as righteous] status; they became permanent members in God's family at the moment of their regeneration.

The condition of receiving their permanent status in God's family was met the moment they placed their faith in Christ's atoning work ... not by maintaining a certain 'level of faith' [or by 'Holy Spirit aided acts of righteousness' or anything else for that matter] subsequent to their regeneration. The sole ground for their status was attained and purchased by the blood of Jesus Christ alone. It is absolutely critical to rightly perceive, and to acknowledge the difference between a condition and a grounding principle... otherwise, we are left with another gospel ... a counterfeit version of it [Galatians 1:8].

 

[Rapture Bound]

"Christian Deconversion"?

The following contains some of my thoughts on the subject which recently resurfaced after
pondering on the content of the exchange of comments between zoidar and Clare73.

Justification and Sanctification ?

I'm just sharing how it was for me. I have come to the conclusion it's not the same for everyone. God is not limited to a box. Each Christian has his/her own story. Is their true confession; i.e., agreeing with God (about your sin) without faith?

www.christianforums.com

post #44 - zoidar said:
I'm saying people seem to receive the Holy Spirit in different ways. I as I confessed
being a sinner in need of forgiveness, others when being prayed for, yet others from
listening to a sermon or just reading the Bible. As we receive the Holy Spirit the
outcome is the same for all, living faith. ****Doctrines don't have much to do with it.
Salvation is not a matter of doctrine, but doctrines can help us stay on course.****

Clare73 replied:
So what is the object of your faith? See Ro 3:25.

Salvation certainly is a matter of doctrine, especially when we as followers of Christ
point to the scriptures to provide the answer to the most important question that all
must answer ..."What must I do to be saved?"

Lately I've come across many YouTube videos and articles that feature "Christian"
deconversion stories. Whether or not these professing Christians where ever genuine
followers of Christ is of course an issue intrinsic to the issue of the eternal
security of the believer [and can never, in my opinion, be settled on a subjective
level since we cannot know with assurance if any person other than ourselves is,
or ever was the genuine article].

Instead, the answer can only be found through the objective truths that the scriptures
provide to the question, "Will any Holy Spirit regenerated person ever permanently renounce
their faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior [and/or the faith once delivered to
the saints - Jude 1:3]?

Contained within the many deconversion testimonies I've heard over the years, there are
two tragic recurring common denominators that I've noticed. First, the virtual equating
of allegiance to their particular church denomination [or group of people] with
allegiance to their God. In other words, to depart from their particular religious
organization = departing from their God. [i.e - a person cannot possibly serve or walk
with God apart from being attached to an organized church group].

Secondly, and intricately related to the first point, these "deconverters" make
statements providing compelling evidence that they never had a firm grasp at all
concerning the question, "what must I do to be saved"?. Frequently they say that
it was their water baptism that saved them, or their service to the Pastor, church
etc., etc.

In other words, did these people ever truly believe that it is only "by grace through
faith and not of works" that a person can be saved with such admissions? They often
complain about their inability to have confidence in answering that question [when they
were "Christians"] since there are so many conflicting opinions. Most say that they
had never even come to the assurance that God had forgiven them of all of their sins
[one day they believe they are on the way to Heaven, the next they believe they are on
their way to the Lake of Fire ... depending on their behavior ... from day to day].

It appears to me that they have little to no understanding of what Christ's shed
blood accomplished for all those who have placed all their hope, faith, and trust
on His finished work ... rather than even 1% of their own works for their justified
status. It appears to me that no regenerated person will ever permanently renounce
their faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior [and/or the faith once delivered
to the saints - Jude 1:3].

To further illustrate my points [although certainly not to provide compelling evidence
for my position], consider the following excerpts taken from one of the many Christian
deconversion websites entitled, "Graceful Atheist" :

"DECONVERSION FROM CHRISTIANITY"
A VERY COMMON MESSAGE
Atheism, Deconstruction, Deconversion, Humanism

A Deconversion Story [by David] :

These kinds of messages have become cliché, but I find the need to write it anyway.
Mostly this is an attempt to communicate to my friends and family as succinctly but
thoroughly as possible the what and the why of my deconversion from Christianity.
This is also for those of you readers who have had doubts and have struggled to keep
them contained.

What I am

I am no longer a Christian. In the summer of 2015 after it became increasing more
difficult to hold my beliefs against surmounting evidence to the contrary I admitted
to myself I no longer believed. I was a Christian for approximately 27 years, until
the Jenga tower of contradiction between belief and facts came crashing down. I could
no longer sustain the mental effort it required to maintain belief against the overwhelming
lack of evidence for that belief.

I am an atheist. Others, wiser than I, have pointed out that this does not tell you very
much about me. To say that I am not something is not very descriptive. The list of things
I am not is infinite. But I am not afraid of this moniker. I am not a theist. This means
I do not believe in God or gods. I do not believe in the supernatural of any kind.
The natural is more than sufficient.


Which Faith?

I happened to grow up in the United States in a nominally Christian household. When
I became a Christian in my late teens it was within the context of a culture soaked
with Christian themes. But what if I had been born in Saudi Arabia? Wouldn’t I have
become a Muslim? What about India? A Sikh or a Hindu? How can I honestly say I would
have become a Christian if I had been raised in a different culture. The answer is I can’t.

I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you
understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I
dismiss yours.

Even within Christianity we have a tremendous amount of disagreement. Catholics and
Protestants. Evangelical and Main liners. There are something like 2000 different Christian
sects alone. As an evangelical we call many of them cults. But how do we determine what is
a cult and what is gospel?

How does one determine whether one faith is more right than another? If your answer is the
bible re-read the line about 2000 different sects of Christianity. Most of them use the same
Christian bible.

Even within a narrow group like Evangelicals , who or what decides between two contradictory
beliefs? Is pre-destination correct or is it human choice? Is baptism submersion or will a
sprinkling do? Is it pure grace or good works that saves a person? I had strong opinions on
each of these as do those who would have disagreed with me. But there is no way to determine
which is true and which is false.

It comes down to cultural microcosms. If you were raised Baptist, then pre-destination is true.
If you were raise Pentecostal then speaking in tongues is true. All the while both groups point
to the other with disdain.

It was when I began to look at what my in-group considered to be cults trying to understand why
a person would believe these “crazy” things, that it occurred to me that they saw my beliefs as
just as crazy. And atheists thought we were all crazy."

 

[Chaleb]

i believe that a believer can become an unbeliever and from then on forfeits his or her salvation,

Being born again is a spiritual birth that proves God's Salvation has been given to you, as "The Gift of Salvation""

You cannot stop being born of your mother, and you can not end being Born from God above.

"birth", never ends...


And who is Salvation?

Its Jesus.

And where was Salvation completed?

It was completed on the Cross, 2000 yrs Ago, and this is why Jesus said.....from the Cross.....>"it is finished".

How is this proven to be true?

1.) Jesus rose from the dead.

2.) """"Christ in you the hope of glory", and all the born again are 'In Christ".

 

[Dah'veed]

Being born again is a spiritual birth that proves God's Salvation has been given to you, as "The Gift of Salvation""
You cannot stop being born of your mother, and you can not end being Born from God above.
"birth", never ends...And who is Salvation? Its Jesus. And where was Salvation completed?
It was completed on the Cross, 2000 yrs Ago, and this is why Jesus said.....from the Cross.....>"it is finished".
How is this proven to be true? 1.) Jesus rose from the dead. 2.) """"Christ in you the hope of glory", and all the born again are 'In Christ".

Luke 24:26 "Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?”
Romans 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead
by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. In order that we may also share in his glory. Rom 8:17

 

[Chaleb]

​

1. Romans 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead
   by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. In order that we may also share in his glory. Rom 8:17​

Dd you notice that Jesus was not raised from the dead by water baptism?

If you've not yet realized that yet, then do realize it asap, reader.

And neither is water baptism as applied to the born again, anything more the symbolic.

Water baptism gets you wet.....that's it.
The Blood Atonement deals with your sin.

 

[Dah'veed]

Dd you notice that Jesus was not raised from the dead by water baptism?
If you've not yet realized that yet, then do realize it asap, reader.
And neither is water baptism as applied to the born again, anything more the symbolic.
Water baptism gets you wet.....that's it. The Blood Atonement deals with your sin.

How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, Heb 9:14-15

 

[Rapture Bound]

"Christian Deconversion"? - Part 2

In my prior post I wrote, "In other words, did these people [professing Christian deconverters] ever truly believe that it is only "by grace through faith and not of works" that a person can be saved with such admissions? The following video is just one, in the avalanche of testimonial videos, which illustrates this recurring theme :

"Leaving Evangelical Christianity - An Intro"

Starting @6:38 mins. into her videos she says, "I just thought about that because this person was a fine person, they were living their life and they just didn't seem to need the Christian teaching". So that kept happening ..."they don't need this Christian stuff, their lives are fine without it. They are playing their part in society, they're doing well, they're benefiting by being good people in society." ...

Who am I to tell people in Australia, in a completely different culture than me, who are doing fine following their own versions of life? They are not hurting anybody and they are doing just fine. Who am I to infiltrate their life and say, "hey you need this Jesus stuff, and if you don't accept it, unfortunately you are going to go to hell?"

In a nutshell she is declaring ... "good people don't need the salvation that Jesus offers."

So I ask you, does it appear to you like this woman ["Dee"], or the multitudes of people that share similar testimonies, ever believed that they were sinners in danger of the wrath of God, and in desperate need of His forgiveness? Did they ever actually understand or receive as truth the clear declaration of Ephesians 2:8-9 that clearly states ... not of works [not because of any of our "superlative feats of morality" that we perform]?

To further illustrate, in another one of her videos entitled, "Why Christians argue about who 'Real' Christians are", she says [similar to the masses of deconverters]...

"The whole saying, a "True Scotsman" applies to Christianity when people like to point at people who used to be Christians and say, 'they were never true Christians', or 'they just didn't understand' ... it has to do with their theological standpoints though. People who can't admit that their theology could be wrong, it's not complicated, it's just a lot to unpack. If somebody says that to you and they are a fundamentalist type of Christian, it's because they literally cannot accept your past as being reality, because if they do, that means they will have to admit their theology is wrong. ****They have to go with the Bible is true over what may happen in reality. If they conflict, they automatically support what the bible says, even if it doesn't match reality"****

****Did you catch that?... in the end it is reality a question of [human] subjective truth [what I feel, what I experience] or [scriptural] objective truth [what God's Word declares as reality], that is to say, which one 'trumps' or 'takes precedence over' the other [which does not imply the total elimination of the another] ... these deconverters have chosen the wrong answer ... subjective truth.****

It appears to me that closely related to this issue is the deconverters rejection of Biblical reliability. They claim that there really isn't any solid evidence for the scriptures being inspired by God. Here's a breathtaking video that I would highly recommend to those scoffers who make that assertion :

<

> "Evidence of God in Mathematics -Truth Project 37, Full Documentary of Proofs of Bible Reliability"

Hell will be filled to the brim with "good men"... "moral" men ... as well as "religious" men who all have this one thing in common ... they have never been born again. Those who have been born again do not boast in their so-called "moral excellence" as the basis or ground for their right-standing [justification] before God; they boast in the cross of Christ alone [Galatians 6:14]. What a man might see in another man as "good", God sees as one that is "dead" .... dead in trespasses and sins [Ephesians 2:1].

To miss this great truth, is in essence, to miss the central message of the Gospel. So, how does Christianity differ from all other religions? If I had to summarize it in one word, it would be "Grace". Other religions require people to try really, really hard to be worthy enough to earn acceptance before their deities. Only in Christianity does God himself come to us to make us worthy, not as a reward for our hard work and striving to obey His rules, but as a free gift of grace for those who would trust in Christ's atoning work rather than their own.

So many stumble right here by choosing to believe that the salvation that God offers[ by grace through faith and not of works] is "too easy" or "too good to be true" [but in truth, they have rejected God's only appointed road to Heaven, it's the very heart of the Gospel message]. Others, who claim to have entered through that narrow gate, are yet striving to be accepted by God through their obedience to God's rules... does that sound like a person who believes that they have been redeemed by Christ's blood? ... "oh yeah", they say, "I've been redeemed by Christ's blood for now, but I've got a little more work to do if I plan on making Heaven my home someday ... but I'm not working for my salvation."

How many people out there do you suppose trust in their good deeds outweighing their bad deeds when those accumulated works are placed on their imaginary, metaphoric, "Great Scale in Heaven" on Judgment day for their admittance into Heaven? Personally, I believe it's very likely that the majority of mankind has bought into this lie fabricated from the demonic hordes.

Here's another shocking and frightening aspect to the scenario ... there are many out there who consider themselves genuine, born-again, blood-bought children of God, that aren't in actuality that far apart from that mind-set ... the parallel is undeniable.

Chaleb [a member here @Christian Forums] vividly describes it like this:

"This is how the enemy works :

A BELIEVING person goes to God, to the Cross, on the day they
are saved, and they are so thankful that GOD saved them. They
know that day, they are saved and who did it, and they know
they are going to HEAVEN, because of God and Christ and The Cross.

2 Yrs later, they are on a forum teaching ....'Here is how you
lose salvation".....>"here are the commandments you need to keep,
and the works you need to do, to STAY SAVED"..

Yet, the day they were saved, they KNEW why they were going to heaven,
as they had the truth then.., and now....= over time they've been
conned out of it by "theology" deceivers."

Galatians 1:9-10, "As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ."

Galatians 6:14, "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world."

 

[Rapture Bound]

"Christian" Deconversion - Part 3

Deconversion, Deconstruction, and Reconstruction - A deeper look down the rabbit hole :

What is a deconstruction story in Christianity? -
Faith deconstruction, also known as deconstructing faith, evangelical deconstruction, the deconstruction movement, or simply deconstruction, is a Christian phenomenon where people unpack, rethink and examine their belief systems. This may lead to dropping one's professed faith altogether [deconversion] or may result in a stronger faith [reconstruction].

What is Christian Deconstruction | Zach Davies | Ep. 29

@20:29 mins - "When I talk to people, the problem is not with Jesus. The problem often revolves around church ... church herds, and things that they misunderstood, or have heard Christians say that doesn't reconcile for them with who they understand Jesus to be."..... And so, as long as we are keeping the foundation [the work and person of Jesus Christ], you're in a good spot."

Please do not confuse leaving a particular version [or all versions] of the organized "church" systems with departing from a relationship with the person of Jesus Christ ... they are two entirely different concepts. This is explained in part in the following article [which I can so relate to, since many aspects of Ken Eckerty's journey mirrors my own].

"Why I Left the Organized Church - A Personal Testimony"
https://www.pilkingtonandsons.com/art_eckerty_whyileft.pdf

Introduction to Ken Eckerty's personal testimony :

The word used in the new Testament for "church" is the Greek word ekklesia which literally means a "gathering" or an "assembly" of believers. It is the means and the vehicle that God has chosen to fill all things with the glory and preeminence of His Son. The saints gather together to manifest Christ and encourage and build one another up in Him. Each member manifests a measure of Christ thus bringing fulness to His Body.

Jesus said in Matthew 18:20 that "where two or three are gathered together in His name, He is in their midst". This could take place anywhere ; in a home, on a boat, in a park, and yes, even in a "church" building. When two or three [or more] saints gather and sing together, or pray together, or exhort one another then they have fulfilled the New Testament meaning of ekklesia. In other words, God's true Assembly is not a building, or an organization which holds to a particular creed, but a people who have been redeemed by grace through faith in Jesus Christ - and understanding this truth is so very critical to understanding what true Christianity consists of.

Going to a church building is done perhaps a few times a week ... being the Church is a daily lifestyle. Many accuse those of "forsaking the assembling of believers" because they do not "go to church" or meet the way they think "church" must be done... they simply have an impaired understanding of what the word ekklesia denotes in scripture. The New Testament does not tell us how to worship, it simply tells us to do it. Just because some elect to not worship the way the majority of professing believers do today, does not mean that they have forsaken the assembly of themselves with fellow believers.

When I refer to the term "organized church", I'm referring to that system of denominationalism that says "worship must be conducted in a certain manner", and "sign on to an entire list of doctrinal truth statements [whether you believe in the entire list or not ... not simply the primary doctrines concerning salvation] in order to become a "member" of their organization" - which they deem to be the true test of a person's genuineness... this is how far have we fallen [as a whole] from New Testament Christianity in these last of the last days prior to Christ's return to the Earth.

The scriptures make it clear that the very moment that a person is born again and indwelt with the Holy Spirit, they become joints heirs with Christ and members of the [universal] Body of Christ [1 Corinthians 12:12-27] ... the hard questions one must ask at this point is, "how can such a spiritual blindness/ mind-set exist in a genuine follower of Jesus Christ? and, "why do so many professing Christians have such a hard time comprehending this?"


Perhaps some of you can relate to the following narrative described by Micah Murray :

"when we criticize the church"
When We Criticize the Church - Micah J. Murray

"We were sold a package deal...

Truth and lies, hope and despair, real and fake – all tied up in a neat package with a bow and sold to us with the label of “Christianity”. The men in the suits with all the words told us that what they taught was true. They said it would fill the aching emptiness in our hearts, that it would get us into Heaven. They told us that it was the only way. We believed them because we were children, and because their voices were the only voices we’d ever heard. With piles of Bible verses and mountains of logic and waves of emotion, they constructed a package deal. And we bought it.

Then we grew up.

When we grew up, we stepped outside the doors of the churches where we had been sold “Christianity” and found that the package wasn’t enough. The neat answers and the principles and the trite songs and the out-of-context Bible verses were dissonant and flat in the world we discovered. Many of us have never set foot inside a church since then.

Some of us clung to the right answers, trying to “walk by faith”, trusting that “His ways are higher than our ways”. Ignoring the cognitive dissonance. Ignoring the unanswerable questions. Trying so desperately hard to please God. Trying so desperately hard to convince ourselves that this was “life more abundantly”. Always nagged by the thought that maybe we just weren’t trying hard enough. Nagged by the fear that the whole thing, the whole package deal named “Christianity”, was a lie.

Then somewhere between the aching loneliness and the lurking agnosticism, in the terrifying darkness, we saw a glimmer of hope. The voice of Jesus whispering above all the words we’d heard about Him. His love reaching past all we’d seen done in His name. His hands gently beginning to untie the neat bow that had tied up the package deal so cleanly and kept us so cruelly from freedom.

So we began, unconsciously, the process of deconstructing our “Christianity”. It’s a long and difficult journey, and often it feels like there’s no compass. See, we’d been taught the Bible was the source of all truth, and that whatever was footnoted with a Bible verse was true. We’d been told that there was only one way to interpret it, and that any other way was wrong and dangerous. Then we began to realize that many of those things so neatly footnoted with Bible verses were simply not true. Not because the Bible was not true, but because the hermeneutic was flawed. We realized that you could find a Bible verse to support any view, no matter how broken or twisted. And so the admonition to “just trust the Bible” held little comfort, because we were unable to read the Bible without hearing the words of all those men in suits selling us truth and lies mixed together.

With that package finally torn open and spilled out, we’re now analyzing it piece by piece."

 

[Rapture Bound]

"Christian Deconversion"? - Part 4

There is no doubt in my mind that there is a profound element of mystery attached with the topic of Christian deconversion. It's due primarily to the fact that there are only two individuals that can be certain about the genuineness of their status before God [i.e - whether or not they have truly been regenerated by the Holy Spirit] .... the believer and God [of course this is excluding the possibility of a person receiving a direct revelation from God concerning another person's status].

In other words, it's totally subjective, there simply isn't any objective scriptural truth available to provide us with a definite answer. And yes, we can look at another person's fruits to provide us with partial evidence, however, that evidence can never be conclusive, it's only the inward witness of the Holy Spirit within the individual themselves that can provides absolute certitude to the reality. Romans 8:16, "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God."

The subject I now speak of pertains to those who are in the process of rescinding their professed faith concerning the core doctrines of the Christian faith [as opposed to those persons who are deconstructing certain false beliefs/doctrines that are held by many individuals and institutions within the umbrella of the Christian faith - as shown in my previous post]. It's addressing those who now have publicly renounced Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior as well as the entirety of the Christian faith [as they viewed it].

It isn't addressing those who are currently struggling with the various questions within Christianity that are causing them to have some degree of doubt. Here's a very short list of those topics/arguments that are often brought to the forefront by the widespread atheist websites and organizations in an attempt to discredit/disprove the Christian faith as being authoritative :

(1) the lack of evidence for Divine inspiration of scripture.

(2) the "hiddenness" of God.

(3) the nature of salvation - the many conflicting views amongst "Christians" concerning what must a person do in order to be accepted before a Holy God.

(4) the Epicurus' trilemma - If God is unable to prevent evil [the extreme suffering of both innocent humans and animals], then He is not all-powerful. If God is not willing to prevent evil, then He is not all-good.

(5) the inconsistency of a loving God with the existence of eternal torment in hell.

Now, there may be some of you that may suppose that it's a very dangerous thing to bring these arguments to the surface. However, I believe that the scriptures clearly provide compelling evidence for my claim that not a single, genuine believer will ever fully deconvert [and forfeit their accepted/justified status before God].

Therefore, although genuine believers may deeply struggle with various questions [as well as troubling circumstances] during their journeys... God will remain faithful to preserve their confidence in the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ until the end of their earthly journeys ... 2 Timothy 1:12, "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."

Therefore, as good stewards before our God, we should come before Him and ask Him to help us refute their claims and defend the faith [which is at the same time serves as a powerful faith builder] ... rather than being fearful to address them ... 1 Peter 3:15, "But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect."

From all that I've seen, there is a consistency from those sharing their deconversion stories. The primary reason that is given by these people for their departure can usually be found on the short list aforementioned ... the (5) reasons that the atheists/agnostics appeal to for the rejection of the Christian faith. The video link [provided below] provides yet another example of this. Jaden's testimony is also so very sad, her words testify how truly confused she was from the very onset of her "Christian" journey.

And what if [and I believe a very strong case can be made for the likelihood] her case is actually one which she was never a genuine Christian, but only assumed herself to be one? It appears to me that a potentially catastrophic consequence is likely to arise when such a spurious sense of reality exists in her mind. That is to say, it may very well diminish the likelihood of her truly trusting alone in Christ's atoning work for her salvation in the future. Perhaps this provides us with yet another real life example of the vast importance of Jesus' exhortation to strive to enter through the narrow gate. A person must genuinely and diligently seek out the only path that leads to a genuine conversion/born again experience while they yet have breath in their lungs ... Luke 13:23,24," Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able."

"Why I Am No Longer Christian| Leaving Religion"

Key points made by Jaden :

@6:06 minutes - "You know, I don't wanna go to hell ... and that is a big part of it is like ... I felt like it was really fear driven." = point (5) - the subject of hell is constantly alluded to [and many, in my opinion, have failed to understand the true nature of hell] although Jaden never gave us her perspective of it. [to view my further remarks/perspective on the topic] : < post #89 - What would you as an annihilationist have said? > ...... < post #29 - Does Hell exist? > ...... < post #6 - Does Hell exist? >

@9:02 minutes - "the next thing I didn't really didn't agree with was the idea that you're never really good enough, or even if you're a good person it doesn't matter because you don't give yourself over to your Lord ... you know, you won't be saved". = point (3) - a confused understanding of the nature of salvation [and particularly the relationship between faith and works as it pertains to receiving an accepted/righteous status before God].

@9:37 minutes - "You know, well I'm saved and I gave my life to God but you're not changing your actions ... to me that doesn't line up." = the reality that exists under the overarching umbrella of "Christianity". It's my conviction that no amount of the widespread hypocrisy that is exhibited in all it's various forms [both doctrinally as well as practically] by professed Christians will ever ultimately cause a genuine believer to permanently renounce Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

 

[Rapture Bound]

"Christian Deconversion?" - Part 5

Hawk Nelson singer’s “deconversion” story :

A few years ago, Jon Steingard, the lead singer for the popular Christian band Hawk Nelson, announced on Instagram that he no longer believed in God. His story is a long one filled with doubts and theological wrestling over many years prior to the rescinding of his professed faith in Christianity.

"Former Christian Music Singer Jon Steingard: I No Longer Believe in God"

Key quotes from video :

@59:30 - the host asks Jon - "would you go back to May 20th and just not hit the "send" button on this deal [Jon's public renunciation of his professed faith in Christianity]? ... Jon replies - "no, once you're unplugged from the [matrix] you can't go back". Here's another possible way of restating Jon's statement ... "once you no longer believe in the faith you've once professed ... you could never actually, and would never desire to 'believe' again] ... the 'door to salvation' has become forever barred from entrance]" ...

Matrix - (slang, figurative) a term describing a controlled environment or situation in which people act or behave in ways that conform to roles pre-determined by a powerful person(s) who decides how the world is supposed to function.

When you hear about the Matrix, everyone’s like, “Oh that movie starring Keanu Reeves.” Or to go a little deeper, the Matrix is the simulated reality that humans are in. The Matrix hides the truth from humanity, allowing them to live a convincing, simulated life while machines grow and harvest people to use as an ongoing energy source. [see my related post on the matrix < post #65 - page 4 Obama State Lottery Is 666 Day After Win, Obama Illinois Zipcode 60606 >

Apply this definition now to the world of "Christianity', to the broad umbrella of people, "church denominations, and organizations that profess to be connected to it. Does anyone really suppose that all the people under that umbrella, those who profess to be "Christians", are genuine believers/followers of Jesus Christ? Many suppose [perhaps like Jon] that they were actually genuine believers when in reality they were embracing a counterfeit version of it ... one which their particular version of "Christianity" convinced them was true, or perhaps their particular experience of it led them to believe at one time that they were genuine followers of Christ.

So, with that said, is Jon's statement .... "once you're unplugged from the matrix you can't go back" Biblically accurate? Has John actually barred himself, or been barred by God from a future opportunity for salvation? [it's my opinion that this is not the case ....and for those who do believe it to be the case, will you just give up on trying to reach him for Christ?].

Let's examine a hypothetical scenario based on Jon's reply. Supposing that the 'LOS' ['Loss Of Salvation' for some genuine Christians] position was actually what the Bible is telling us, Jon wouldn't ever be able to regain that salvation that he once possessed, but later, over time ... forfeited. The primary verses that the LOS camp appeal to in order to support their claim is found in Hebrews 6:4-6 :

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


Personally, I disagree with the above LOS position [held primarily by Arminians]. However, this doesn't imply that my position is that of the Calvinist ... my position can basically be described as a '1-point Calvinist' - the "P" of the 'T.U.L.I.P'. - the inevitable perseverance of the saints. My position in this case is one which rejects both the traditional Arminian and Calvian perspectives. Here I adopt a very important principle borrowed from the Molinist perspective which highlights the obvious hypothetical nature of the topic at hand [the "if" of Hebrews 6:6].

And yes, there are many 1-point Calvinists out there ... not merely those who apply certain Molinist principles/perspectives such as myself [as the commercial below says ... lol]

M&Ms Christmas Commercial: THEY DO EXIST!

Here's my position on the matter : < post #100 - page #5 Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? > < post #133 - page #7 Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? > < posts #166 & #179 - page #9 Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? > posts #324 & #331 - page #17 Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >


Starting @27:08 minutes into the video, Jon states his primary reason for renouncing his priorly professed faith ... the problem of evil. This of course would fall under the broader category sometimes referred to as Epicurus' trilemma - "If God is unable to prevent evil, then he is not all-powerful. If God is not willing to prevent evil, then he is not all-good. If God is both willing and able to prevent evil, then why does evil exist?"

Below I've included 3 inspiring and riveting videos that hopefully will help some of you who have, or are, wrestling with doubts that emanate from Epicurus' trilemma. From my vantage point they could serve as an important tool in answering some [if not most] of the challenging questions that the scoffers often appeal to.

Many [perhaps even all?] followers of Christ will [sooner or later] struggle to one degree or another with some of the questions pertaining to the topic. Mature followers of Christ realize that they will never come close to having all of the answers on this side of Heaven... but have more than sufficient, that is, compelling evidence that provides them with full confidence in Biblical Christianity.

The Problem of Suffering and Evil (1) - William Lane Craig at Aalborg University

@15:09 minutes - "Is there a logical contradiction between the two statements : A. An all-loving, all-powerful God exists ... and ... suffering exists?" ... @16:24 minutes - "Hidden Assumptions Made by the Atheist : 1. If God is all-powerful, He can create any world that He wants ... and ... 2. If God is all-loving, He prefers a world without suffering."

The Problem of Suffering and Evil (2) - William Lane Craig at Aalborg University

@15:05 minutes - intro to Craig's ensuing statement - "So, if we can't infer from all the evil in the world that a good God exists, we could not infer from the good in the world that some evil being does not exist....and my response to this is to say that's right, the two cases are just on a par. Given the complexity of life, it is correct that you cannot judge whether or not the Creator of the world is good or bad by doing this sort of inductive survey of the 'goods' and the 'evils' in the world...."

Watch Defenders LIVE! // The Emotional Problem of Evil

@16:24 mins. "At the end of the day, God is still the only solution to the problem of evil. If God does not exist, then we are locked without hope with a world filled with pointless and gratuitous [unwarranted] suffering. God is the final answer to the problem of suffering, for He redeems us from evil, and He takes us into the everlasting joy of an incommensurable [incomparable] good which is fellowship with Himself."