Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?

[Rapture Bound]

Am I correct in saying you believe that once somebody believes, they cannot become an unbeliever? My church believes in free will so I do believe it is possible for one to renounce their faith.

You would be correct in saying that I affirm that once a person is genuinely regenerated and indwelt by the Holy Spirit [i.e.- a true believer], they will not become an unbeliever.

As far as free will is concerned, I also believe in the concept, and that it's essence is woven throughout the scriptures. However, the issue here essentially revolves around how a person [specifically] defines the word "free will" [which is a very complex theological issue]. That is to say, "What does free will mean?"...and, "Are we accountable for our actions? On this, libertarians and compatibilists agree that we are. The area of disagreement is which view best accounts for this moral responsibility. It appears to me that the heart of the debate is the very definition of what it means to be free.

Also, the perplexity of the issue becomes even more magnified when we understand that there are gradations of thought within each of those camps [for example - hard determinism, soft determinism, hard indeterminism, soft indeterminism, etc, etc,]. In my opinion, based from all that I've seen, the common mistake or [false] assumption that is made by those within the Loss Of Salvation position as it relates to free will in believers runs along these lines [as demonstrated by the following statement] ...

"Those who believe that once a person has been born again and justified before God will always be born again and justified before God reject the notion that the born again believer possesses the faculty of free will or freedom of choice." Their assumption is that since free will yet exists in these believers, then at least some of them will [actually and inevitably] use that freedom to ultimately depart from the Living God to their eternal destruction. It is as if they cannot even fathom the possibility that a believer may possess freedom of the will, and yet will never ultimately depart from a relationship with their God. ... just my take on the issue.

 

[rturner76]

does the Spirit of God provide the gift of salvific faith?

Yes if it is accepted

 

[Rapture Bound]

Here's a repost of my recent reply to the thread entitled, " Our future sins are not already forgiven? Your thoughts?" :

In my opinion, the foremost single passage in scripture presenting overwhelming evidence that all of a believers future sins have been covered at the moment of their regeneration is found in Hebrews 10:14. Again, it's necessary to make it clear that what I'm specifically addressing here is future sin as it relates to a believer's justified standing before God.

Hebrews 10:14, "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." [KJV].

Hebrews 10 :14 - Greek interlinear :

"By one [mia] for [gar] offering [prosphora] He has perfected [teteleiōken] for all time [eis to diēnekes] those [tous] being sanctified [hagiazomenous]."

"He has perfected" - root - Strong's #5048. teleioó
teleioó: to bring to an end, to complete, perfect
Original Word: τελειόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: teleioó
Phonetic Spelling: (tel-i-o'-o)
Definition: to bring to an end, to complete, perfect
Usage: (a) as a course, a race, or the like: I complete, finish (b) as of time or prediction: I accomplish, (c) I make perfect; pass: I am perfected.

"being sanctified" - root - Strong's #37. hagiazó
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Definition: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.


Generally speaking, those of the LOS [Loss Of Salvation or "Loss of Justification"] camp emphasize the aspect of the singularity of Christ's sacrifice [i.e. - it's completeness and sufficiency for the forgiveness and redemption of humanity throughout all of history] ... "For by one offering." That is, Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins [forever abolishing the need of it's repetition, as well as the Old Covenant sacrificial system]. It was Christ's singular act of atonement that provided a perfect and acceptable sacrifice which alone could satisfy God's holy righteousness and justice].

On the other hand, the opposing camp, the OJAS ["Once Justified, Always Justified"] or OASAAS ["Once Actually Saved, Always Actually Saved"] advocates by and large focus upon the resulting effect of Christ's singular sacrifice upon those who have placed their faith in it's efficacy and sufficiency to obtain their right-standing before God ... "he hath perfected for ever [for all time] them that are sanctified [those being sanctified]." To state it in a slightly different manner for further clarity ... "those being sanctified" - all those who, from age to age, through faith receive as their own that which has been procured for all men.

Although it is true that we do not have an "either/or", but rather a "both/and" scenario in view here [each camp representing one-half of the dual truths declared in Hebrews 10:14], it appears to me that there is compelling evidence contained within Hebrews 10:14 which supports the OJAJ position.

A critical question that needs to be addressed here is the following :"Should we view the sanctification spoken of here ["those being sanctified"] in a positional or progressive sense?"

Although it certainly appears to me that positional sanctification is in view here, a person's perspective on this issue actually matters little as it pertains to the question of the forgiveness of a regenerated person's future sin [as I will attempt to demonstrate by the following truth claims].

(1) A person cannot be progressively sanctified unless he/she has already been positionally sanctified [or set apart by God and considered to be holy in His eyes].

post #124 - page 7 < https://www.christianforums.com/threads/can-a-genuine-blood-bought-regenerated-believer-forfeit-their-salvation.8214696/page-7 >

(2) A person cannot be sanctified in either a positional or progressive sense without also experiencing a justified status before God. [1 Corinthians 6:11].

(3) All those who have been justified will also be glorified [in both it's "already" and "not yet" dimensions]. Although glorification is viewed as including a present [continous] sanctifying/transformational work of the Holy Spirit operating in the lives of believers, there is also a future aspect attached to it ... the reception of a glorified body - a resurrection body in Heaven.

post #92 - page 5 < https://www.christianforums.com/threads/can-a-genuine-blood-bought-regenerated-believer-forfeit-their-salvation.8214696/page-5 >

post #103 - page 6 < https://www.christianforums.com/threads/can-a-genuine-blood-bought-regenerated-believer-forfeit-their-salvation.8214696/page-6 >

Therefore, positional and progressive sanctification, as well as the [ultimate] redemption of the body, are states that will be actualized in all of those ["from age to age"] who experience a justified status before God by way of the new birth ... "For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his." - Romans 6:5 [English Standard Version].

 

[Rapture Bound]

Divine Sovereignty and Human Freedom - A Molinist Perspective :

William Lane Craig demonstrates the insufficiency of "simple foreknowledge" - the Arminian perspective on God's foreordination during the first six minutes of the video linked below. He then proceeds to expound upon the necessity and superiority of the Molinist account of Divine sovereignty and human freedom ["middle knowledge"].

"Doctrine of Creation Part 12: Arminian and Molinist Accounts of Divine Sovereignty and Human Freedom"

"If God knows that something will happen, then there's nothing more to foreordain. If it will happen ... then it will happen ... the future, by definition is, 'whatever will happen'. So if it will happen ... it will happen, and foreordination becomes a redundancy; and surely there's much more to the Biblical doctrine of foreordination than the triviality that God ordains of 'what will happen will happen.'

 

[Rapture Bound]

Divine Sovereignty and Human Freedom - A Molinist Perspective :

William Lane Craig demonstrates the insufficiency of "simple foreknowledge" - the Arminian perspective on God's foreordination during the first six minutes of the video linked below. He then proceeds to expound upon the necessity and superiority of the Molinist account of Divine sovereignty and human freedom ["middle knowledge"].

"Doctrine of Creation Part 12: Arminian and Molinist Accounts of Divine Sovereignty and Human Freedom"

"If God knows that something will happen, then there's nothing more to foreordain. If it will happen ... then it will happen ... the future, by definition is, 'whatever will happen'. So if it will happen ... it will happen, and foreordination becomes a redundancy; and surely there's much more to the Biblical doctrine of foreordination than the triviality that God ordains of 'what will happen will happen.'

For those of you who may not have the time or desire to watch the entire video, you can simply skip to the 39:23 minute mark to view the humorous ending to Dr. Craig's excellent presentation ... "Molinism saves Marriages" [this segment only runs for about 4 minutes].

 

[Mark Quayle]

Divine Sovereignty and Human Freedom - A Molinist Perspective :

William Lane Craig demonstrates the insufficiency of "simple foreknowledge" - the Arminian perspective on God's foreordination during the first six minutes of the video linked below. He then proceeds to expound upon the necessity and superiority of the Molinist account of Divine sovereignty and human freedom ["middle knowledge"].

"Doctrine of Creation Part 12: Arminian and Molinist Accounts of Divine Sovereignty and Human Freedom"
"If God knows that something will happen, then there's nothing more to foreordain. If it will happen ... then it will happen ... the future, by definition is, 'whatever will happen'. So if it will happen ... it will happen, and foreordination becomes a redundancy; and surely there's much more to the Biblical doctrine of foreordination than the triviality that God ordains of 'what will happen will happen.'

William Lane Craig, too, is capable of letting words push reason around. Just saying...

"Foreordination" is WHY it happens at all. Our position along our timeline is far from the only reality.

WLC apparently doesn't realize that God is not bound by this bubble that we live in.

 

[Rapture Bound]

"Saved; yet so as by Fire" :

1 Corinthians 3:15 "If anyone’s work shall be burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." [KJV]....

Verses 10-14 :
"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward."

As a "Once Justified, Always Justified" proponent, a common question that is asked of me concerning the above verses runs along the following lines:

" If you've got these people who are not building with the right materials and not building on the right foundation, it seems like, fire is going to come, it's going to test it, if their work is burned up, this person's going to suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. So, if you've got a person who goes to the Judgment Seat of God in the end, and everything gets burned up, how is that different from a lost person who shows up at Judgment Day and has no good works?"

My Perspective :

The context of 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 is primarily concerned with the role of teachers in the building up of the church. However, I think the principle behind the text "..will be saved, but only as through fire." (v15), is something that should concern all believers. For it seems to be a reference to the Judgment Seat of Christ; hence verse 13, "each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire..." [note: the terms 'each one' and 'anyone' could be referring to all believers].

All believers will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ [not just those in ministry leadership roles], as in 2 Corinthians 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Notice also that the text (i.e. 1 Corinthians 3:15) was originally addressed to believers who Paul referred to as 'carnal' or 'infants' in Christ [1 Corinthians 3:1], because of all their divisions, envy and strife [1 Corinthians 3:3]. One could argue that such believers will be saved, but only as through fire [i.e. by the skin of their teeth]. So the text (1 Cor 3:15) could arguably apply to spiritually immature as well.

Returning to the main text -- verse 15, ""If anyone’s work shall be burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

It's unthinkable to me that there will be a single genuine believer who will arrive at the end of their life and 'the fire is going to hit them', and nothing in his/her life will be deemed to be according to the will of God. It appears to me that there will be nobody entering into Heaven who didn't live a life that was consistent with doing the will of God.

Instead, I propose that there are two main takeaways or precious truths contained within it :

(1) There will be eternal rewards awaiting those who diligently seek to do the will of God and have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. We only get one "shot" at those rewards ... there will be no "do-overs" ... so we should earnestly strive for those rewards.

(2) Salvation is simply granted to man as a free gift, through God's immeasurable grace and mercy ... not of works. Those who are not genuine believers [i.e. - "lost people"] imagine this scriptural reality to be either "too easy" or "too good to be true". They somehow cling to the demonic delusion that they can somehow merit a Heavenly inheritance by their moral performance.

The various questions that arise from our main text [1 Cor. 3:10-15] revolve full circle back to the issue of the relationship between faith and works. Faith and works are clearly revealed throughout scripture as being polar opposites concerning their roles in a person's justified status before God. A person can only be considered righteous before God by faith in Christ's atoning work on their behalf.

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: ... v.9 ,"Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Romans 4:5, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

It is vital to understand that [saving] faith is merely an instrument that grasps Christ, and, as such, is intrinsically unworthy in itself: . . . we are righteous by faith, that is, through mercy for the sake of Christ we are righteous, not because faith is a virtue which merits the remission of sins by its own worthiness. . . . Therefore we do not say that we are righteous by faith in the sense that this is a worthiness of such great power that it merits remission, but in the sense that there must be some instrument/faculty in us by which we lay hold upon our Mediator who intercedes for us, and on account of whom the Father is favorable toward us.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Here's a repost of a recent reply I made on the thread :
"Our future sins are not already forgiven? Your thoughts?" :

Brother JJ replied, " Jesus atonement is appropriated/seized by faith (Rom 5:1-2). It not only covers, but, TAKES AWAY/REMOVES the believer/seizers sins past-present-future. When all sins are removed no further judgment is required."

Yes indeed Brother JJ! Once a person realizes that they possess absolutely nothing in themselves, that is, that they are absolutely helpless to save themselves on the account of their own moral uprightness or righteousness and place their trust in Christ's atoning work for their redemption and righteousness ... they are forever regenerated, their sins are blotted out as far as the west is from the east, NEVER again to be remembered. [as I demonstrated in post #40] < Our future sins are not already forgiven? Your thoughts? >

Psalm 103:12, "As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us."

Problem is ... many people simply find that this scheme of redemption/salvation is "too hard to believe"; they imagine that it's "too easy" ... there must be something that they must contribute in order to be justified before God other than directing all of their trust in Christ's finished work on the cross... the reality is ...there isn't. Those who refuse to place all of their trust in this reality will tragically remain dead in their sins, separated from that eternal life that was offered to them as a free gift [i.e. - a gift that cannot be earned].

Another major problem is ... many imagine that a person is justified one way [directing all their trust for forgiveness in Christ's atoning work] ... then, subsequent to justification and regeneration, that person must remained justified by an altogether different manner ... their trust in the atoning work ... wait for it ... plus works [however they define it]. The fatal error here is found in a person's failure to distinguish between God's justifying declaration and His sanctifying work. Works are the inevitable by-product of the new birth ... they carry no merit in and of themselves, that honor is solely reserved for Jesus Christ, and could have only been accomplished by Him.

Was the issue of the forgiveness of sins forever settled by the shed blood of Christ for those who have truly believed on His sacrifice for them or not? Or, must a person subsequent to regeneration forever be worried that Christ's blood may not have been enough after all? It appears to me that the only real cause for concern in a person in this scenario is, "have I ever truly been regenerated?", and, "has the blood of Christ ever truly been applied to my heart?"

 

[Rapture Bound]

Romans 3:25, "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

The above passage is one that is commonly misunderstood. Many make the assumption that this verse is stating that when a person applies the blood of Christ to their hearts by faith, it is only their past sins that have been blotted out. But is this actually the case? I agree with the perspective that is provided in the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary :

"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation" — or "propitiatory sacrifice."
through faith in his blood — Some of the best interpreters, observing that "faith upon" is the usual phrase in Greek, not "faith in" Christ, would place a "comma" after "faith," and understand the words as if written thus: "to be a propitiation, in His blood, through faith." But "faith in Christ" is used in Galatians 3:26 and Ephesians 1:15; and "faith in His blood" is the natural and appropriate meaning here.

"to declare his righteousness for the remission" — rather, "pretermission" or "passing by."

of sins—"the sins."

"that are past" — not the sins committed by the believer before he embraces Christ, but the sins committed under the old economy, before Christ came to "put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."

"through the forbearance of God" — God not remitting but only forbearing to punish them, or passing them by, until an adequate atonement for them should be made. In thus not imputing them, God was righteous, but He was not seen to be so; there was no "manifestation of His righteousness" in doing so under the ancient economy. But now that God can "set forth" Christ as a "propitiation for sin through faith in His blood," the righteousness of His procedure in passing by the sins of believers before, and in now remitting them, is "manifested," declared, brought fully out to the view of the whole world. (Our translators have unfortunately missed this glorious truth, taking "the sins that are past" to mean the past sins of believers—committed before faith—and rendering, by the word "remission," what means only a "passing by"; thus making it appear that "remission of sins" is "through the forbearance of God," which it certainly is not)"

A believer does not over the course of their life [progressively] become "more forgiven". When a believer confesses their sin to God, He doesn't make them "more forgiven" than they already were. In other words, He is not forgiving them of something "new" that He didn't cover when they first believed on Jesus' substitutional atoning work for their righteous standing before Him.

All of their sins... past, present, future ... from the beginning to the end of their lives have already been paid in full [pre-paid] by virtue of Christ's once for all sacrifice.[Hebrews 10:10-14 - see post #383]. Although ongoing confession of sin may be characteristic of believers, and may play a role pertaining to their experiential [progressive] sanctification ... the performance of it cannot, and does not, add or subtract from their [previously] God-granted righteous standing.[/S]

 

[Dah'veed]

Welcome to CF!
Yes they can, it is called apostasy.

Depravity Of Apostates
But these beasts, mere creatures of instinct, are made to be captured; 2 Peter 2:12
These are they who set [themselves] apart, natural [men], not having [the] Spirit. Jude 1:19

Keep yourselves in the love of God as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to grant you eternal life. Jude 1:21

 

[Rapture Bound]

Depravity Of Apostates
But these beasts, mere creatures of instinct, are made to be captured; 2 Peter 2:12
These are they who set [themselves] apart, natural [men], not having [the] Spirit. Jude 1:19

Keep yourselves in the love of God as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to grant you eternal life. Jude 1:21

Hi Dah'veed - I noticed that you referred back to post #10 where Maria Billingsley responded to my question in the OP, "Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?"

Well, since you responded to an extremely old post (380 posts ago), I'm assuming that you probably aren't fully aware of my perspective on the issue. My question was carefully and specifically framed to represent my Molinist viewpoint.

Q: Can a genuine believer lose salvation?
A: Yes.

Q: Will a genuine believer lose salvation?
A: No.

It is one thing to state that something is possible and impossible at the same time, and quite another to say that although a circumstance is possible ... that it must necessarily [at least in one single instance] actuate or come to pass ... the former claim is simply nonsensical. My Molinist position asserts that just because a circumstance [with it's accompanying consequences] may occur ... it simply will not occur in the case of a genuine believer.

"Salvation is secure. The promises of salvation are there to encourage the faint hearted and discouraged. The warnings are there to awake the complacent, presumptuous, backsliding or sinning. God utilizes both blessings and warnings in order to fulfill His promise to preserve all of His children [John 6:37-39].

For example, let's take the warning label on lawnmowers. Manufacturers are lawfully required to mark an easily seen warning that says something along these lines, "DANGER!! ... KEEP HANDS AND FEET AWAY TO AVOID SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH"

(1) What is the purpose of the warning? ... to prevent serious injury or death.

(2) Is it logical or coherent to assert that any person will or must actually place their hands or feet under the lawnmower in order to make the warning real? ... I don't believe so.

(3) Whether or not a person complies with the warning does not do away with the actual consequences that accompany failure to do so.

(4) Whether or not, and which persons, which actually fail to heed the warning(s) and suffer the real consequences is an entirely distinct question.

(5) The warning passages [scattered throughout the scriptures] are just one of the many means that God utilizes to preserve His children safely into their Heavenly inheritance.

The above truth statements contain some of the most essential premises contained in the Molinist "can/won't model of perseverance". It's the model which I believe best answers the question of "what do we do with the various warning passages we find throughout scripture?"

 

[Dah'veed]

Hi Dah'veed - I noticed that you referred back to post #10 where Maria Billingsley responded to my question in the OP, "Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?"

Well, since you responded to an extremely old post (380 posts ago), I'm assuming that you probably aren't fully aware of my perspective on the issue. My question was carefully and specifically framed to represent my Molinist viewpoint.

I read the opening post and several other posts and the response to post #10 merely pointed out the obvious, an apostate is not a believer, an heir in Christ. (Gal 3:25-29) Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, remain in [union with] Him; Col 2:6

As for the Molinist viewpoint, it depends which way the wind blows.

Q: Can a genuine believer lose salvation?
A: Yes.

Salvation is secure. ...

For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; 1 John 2:19

 

[Rapture Bound]

I read the opening post and several other posts and the response to post #10 merely pointed out the obvious, an apostate is not a believer, an heir in Christ. (Gal 3:25-29) Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, remain in [union with] Him; Col 2:6

As for the Molinist viewpoint, it depends which way the wind blows.

For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; 1 John 2:19

So I take it that although you don't agree with the Molinist perspective concerning the "can/won't model of a believer's perseverance" (explaining the warning passages), you do agree with it's conclusion concerning the eternal security of the believer? ..., that is, that not even one single blood-bought child of God will ever forfeit their salvation and eternally perish in the Lake of Fire.

 

[Dah'veed]

So I take it that although you don't agree with the Molinist perspective concerning the "can/won't model of a believer's perseverance" (explaining the warning passages), you do agree with it's conclusion concerning the eternal security of the believer? ..., that is, that not even one single blood-bought child of God will ever forfeit their salvation and eternally perish in the Lake of Fire.

Keep in mind that the warning passages are for those who lack assurance of salvation provided in Christ.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, ...

 

[Rapture Bound]

Keep in mind that the warning passages are for those who lack assurance of salvation provided in Christ.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, ...

"Keep in mind that the warning passages are for those who lack assurance of salvation provided in Christ."

This is the way I see it ..."Salvation is secure. The promises of salvation are there to encourage the faint hearted and discouraged. The warnings are there to awake the complacent, presumptuous, backsliding or sinning. God utilizes both blessings and warnings in order to fulfill His promise to preserve all of His children [John 6:37-39].

 

[Dah'veed]

"Keep in mind that the warning passages are for those who lack assurance of salvation provided in Christ."

This is the way I see it ..."Salvation is secure. The promises of salvation are there to encourage the faint hearted and discouraged. The warnings are there to awake the complacent, presumptuous, backsliding or sinning. God utilizes both blessings and warnings in order to fulfill His promise to preserve all of His children [John 6:37-39].

God corrects all his children, and if you refuse correction, then you don't really belong to him. Heb 12:8

For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light. Eph 5:8

 

[Rapture Bound]

I read the opening post and several other posts and the response to post #10 merely pointed out the obvious, an apostate is not a believer, an heir in Christ. (Gal 3:25-29) Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, remain in [union with] Him; Col 2:6

As for the Molinist viewpoint, it depends which way the wind blows.

For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; 1 John 2:19

You said, "As for the Molinist viewpoint, it depends which way the wind blows." [post #392]

Obviously you are not a fan of Molinism ... that's o.k., you're free to voice your viewpoint. Chances are that your soteriology is very similar to Calvinism's 5-point "T.U.L.I.P." since those who identify with that camp explain the warning passages as not being primarily directed at genuine believers, but rather exclusively pertaining to professing believers (false brethren). Although Calvinists of that stripe certainly may exist, I've never come across one in all my many years of study (not trying to stuff you into some type of theological box or anything like that, just pointing out a couple of Molinism's critical distinctives).

A "mere Molinst", one who adheres to the basic principles espoused by Luis de Molina, cannot logically or consistently identify as a Calvinist or an Arminian. This can be attributed largely, if not entirely, to his unique perspective concerning the doctrine of God's Middle Knowledge. That particular view, which pertains to God's omniscience, necessarily affects and causes the Molinist's doctrine to significantly differ from the Calvinist "T" in T.U.L.I.P. - all the way down to the "P" ... as well as key elements within the Arminian perspective of salvation.

Molinism is not inherently a soteriological system, but elements of it can certainly be applied to it. However, as with any other "soteriological camp", there exists some type of basic, general agreement within the camp, but will yet differ on some particular points within that system. For instance, although Molina held to the viewpoint that all those regenerated by the Holy Spirit will ultimately persevere in the faith to the end of their lives, not all "mere Molinists" embrace his viewpoint.

A person is a mere Molinist if they affirm :

(a) God is in control of everything

(b) man is genuinely free (although limitations exist).

(c) God uses middle knowledge to accomplish His purposes.

 

[Dah'veed]

You said, "As for the Molinist viewpoint, it depends which way the wind blows." [post #392]

Obviously you are not a fan of Molinism ... that's o.k., you're free to voice your viewpoint. Chances are that your soteriology is very similar to Calvinism's 5-point "T.U.L.I.P." since those who identify with that camp explain the warning passages as not being primarily directed at genuine believers, but rather exclusively pertaining to professing believers (false brethren).

Again, you will repeatedly find that the admonishment is for unbelief: Mark 16:16
Since the result of your faith, is the salvation of your souls. (1 Peter 1:9)

A "mere Molinst", one who adheres to the basic principles espoused by Luis de Molina, cannot logically or consistently identify as a Calvinist or an Arminian. This can be attributed largely, if not entirely, to his unique perspective concerning the doctrine of God's Middle Knowledge. That particular view, which pertains to God's omniscience, necessarily affects and causes the Molinist's doctrine to significantly differ from the Calvinist "T" in T.U.L.I.P. - all the way down to the "P" ... as well as key elements within the Arminian perspective of salvation.

The new creation is found in Christ not Molina. Since there is one bread, we [believers] who are many are [united into] one body; for we all partake of the one bread [which represents the body of Christ]. 1 Cor 10:17 AMP

Molinism is not inherently a soteriological system, but elements of it can certainly be applied to it. However, as with any other "soteriological camp", there exists some type of basic, general agreement within the camp, but will yet differ on some particular points within that system. For instance, although Molina held to the viewpoint that all those regenerated by the Holy Spirit will ultimately persevere in the faith to the end of their lives, not all "mere Molinists" embrace his viewpoint.

So what you're telling us is that Molinism is all over the place.
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—John 1:12

 

[Rapture Bound]

Again, you will repeatedly find that the admonishment is for unbelief: Mark 16:16
Since the result of your faith, is the salvation of your souls. (1 Peter 1:9)

The new creation is found in Christ not Molina. Since there is one bread, we [believers] who are many are [united into] one body; for we all partake of the one bread [which represents the body of Christ]. 1 Cor 10:17 AMP

So what you're telling us is that Molinism is all over the place.
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—John 1:12

I believe you've pretty much missed the overall gist of what I stated. Perhaps it would be easier if you stated, in question form, those things you find objectionable?

 

[Dah'veed]

I believe you've pretty much missed the overall gist of what I stated. Perhaps it would be easier if you stated, in question form, those things you find objectionable?

I may have missed the part that you even picked a side but feel free to answer the question:
Evaluate yourselves to see whether you are in the faith, living as genuine believers.
Do you not yourselves realize that Jesus Christ is in you? (2 Cor 13:5)