Can marriage ever be a sin if both are Christian

[Mark Quayle]

Very well said. People in Christendom who behave this way are discrediting the Faith as a whole. They are also making an idol out of marriage.

I know of people who avoid church assemblies in general because they see a bunch of judgmental people who love to get on their high horse and point the finger. That kind of behavior doesn't make us look welcoming to those who are unchurched and looking for answers.

Regarding divorce specifically, when I told my friends about the circumstances surrounding my excommunication, they were horrified that I would be treated that way solely because I had begun divorce proceedings on grounds they did not approve of. The word "cult" came up more than once in characterizing the kind of place that gave me the boot.

Condemning someone for getting a divorce on reasonable grounds will do far greater harm to the reputation of the Church assembly than the divorce itself. Tolerating abusive marriages will discredit the Faith in ways no divorce ever could.

The opposite is also true— the fact that Christians go out of their way to divorce because they find a Biblical excuse to do so, when God is more obviously AGAINST divorce than in favor of it, is often the same person that points the finger.

 

[ZephBonkerer]

The opposite is also true— the fact that Christians go out of their way to divorce because they find a Biblical excuse to do so, when God is more obviously AGAINST divorce than in favor of it, is often the same person that points the finger.

What would be an example of this? I heard of one case where a woman divorced her husband after he admitted to watching the naughty channel for two minutes while in his hotel room on a business trip. Is this the sort of thing you had in mind?

Obviously, people who are happily married don't look for excuses to leave their marriage. Maybe her reasons for wanting out were fair and justified. I don't know. To me, it didn't seem likely that a reasonable spouse in this situation would seek a divorce unless there was something else going on.

In my case, I didn't need an excuse to seek a divorce - I already had that. Instead, I sought a way to make divorce unnecessary. That included counsel from a qualified third party. Divorce in my mind was a remedy of last resort. Six weeks into counseling, it was clear that I had no choice but to wind down the marriage. What angered me was that I was STILL condemned by both church elders and other Christians for this move.

They said "reconcile reconcile reconcile" as if I didn't already go to great lengths to do just that. How long was I supposed to keep up reconciliation efforts? Until I die of old age? Until she petitions the courts for a restraining order against me? These were people who knew or should have known that I would not have gotten a divorce if I had a reasonable alternative. Waiting for some repentance or miracle that may never come is not reasonable. Condemning someone for refusing to pursue a fool's errand is not reasonable.

 

[Lost Witness]

domestic violence, alcoholism, involvement in criminal activity, or gambling away the household money

Please Explain where the above reasons are supported in scripture


May The LORD Bless You and Keep You


Shalom Aleichem

 

[Mark Quayle]

What would be an example of this? I heard of one case where a woman divorced her husband after he admitted to watching the naughty channel for two minutes while in his hotel room on a business trip. Is this the sort of thing you had in mind?

Obviously, people who are happily married don't look for excuses to leave their marriage. Maybe her reasons for wanting out were fair and justified. I don't know. To me, it didn't seem likely that a reasonable spouse in this situation would seek a divorce unless there was something else going on.

In my case, I didn't need an excuse to seek a divorce - I already had that. Instead, I sought a way to make divorce unnecessary. That included counsel from a qualified third party. Divorce in my mind was a remedy of last resort. Six weeks into counseling, it was clear that I had no choice but to wind down the marriage. What angered me was that I was STILL condemned by both church elders and other Christians for this move.

They said "reconcile reconcile reconcile" as if I didn't already go to great lengths to do just that. How long was I supposed to keep up reconciliation efforts? Until I die of old age? Until she petitions the courts for a restraining order against me? These were people who knew or should have known that I would not have gotten a divorce if I had a reasonable alternative. Waiting for some repentance or miracle that may never come is not reasonable. Condemning someone for refusing to pursue a fool's errand is not reasonable.

I'm mainly saying that God hates divorce. But Christians —particularly legalistic Christians— think it's "ok to divorce under certain circumstances given by Scripture", which is not what scripture says, taken in the whole counsel of Scripture: God hates divorce. Jesus said, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so” (Matt. 19:8). I'm saying that it is human nature to want to justify oneself for doing what one wants to do. I've had people come to me about their marriages, who seemed to want my permission —not my advice.

And no, I'm not saying there isn't a time or reason for divorce. I'm just saying it is remarkable phenomenon, that legalistic people find legalistic reasons to do what they want to do.

 

[ZephBonkerer]

Please Explain where the above reasons are supported in scripture


May The LORD Bless You and Keep You


Shalom Aleichem

What makes you think we need some explicit permission to divorce for those reasons? Is there some verse in Scripture that says the only allowed grounds for divorce are ones that are explicitly named by Jesus?

If you are looking for some exhaustive list of acceptable grounds for divorce in Scripture, you won't find it. You have to consider the overall tone of Scriptures on the matter to see it. In other words, look to biblical principles, not hard-and-fast rules.

Sometimes we like the hard-and-fast rules because rules allow us to check the boxes and be compliant. If we do A, B, and C then we are compliant. No ifs, ands, or buts. But the tenets of ethics and morality aren't always like that. You can be a thoroughly disgusting, wicked individual and still be compliant with some checklist. But God isn't fooled.

 

[Mark Quayle]

What makes you think we need some explicit permission to divorce for those reasons? Is there some verse in Scripture that says the only allowed grounds for divorce are ones that are explicitly named by Jesus?

If you are looking for some exhaustive list of acceptable grounds for divorce in Scripture, you won't find it. You have to consider the overall tone of Scriptures on the matter to see it. In other words, look to biblical principles, not hard-and-fast rules.

Sometimes we like the hard-and-fast rules because rules allow us to check the boxes and be compliant. If we do A, B, and C then we are compliant. No ifs, ands, or buts. But the tenets of ethics and morality aren't always like that. You can be a thoroughly disgusting, wicked individual and still be compliant with some checklist. But God isn't fooled.

Worse, those explicit rules were given because of the hardness of their heart. If that is acceptable to them, they are still wrong to do it. So obviously, 'the rules' is not the point. "But I call you to peace."

 

[ZephBonkerer]

Worse, those explicit rules were given because of the hardness of their heart. If that is acceptable to them, they are still wrong to do it. So obviously, 'the rules' is not the point. "But I call you to peace."

This gets into my point earlier about rule-based ethics vs principle-based ethics. The Pharisees were very rule-based in their approach. They were rotten people even though they checked all the boxes that purported to say "if you do these things, then you are ethical and moral". They may have impressed many of the people, but they didn't impress God.

Moses did not give a list of acceptable grounds for divorce. He only said something like "finds no favor because of some indecency". It was intentionally vague. The Pharisees perceived that because the Mosaic Law didn't restrict divorce for specific grounds, they took that as license to divorce for any reason or no reason at all. If that was the intent of Moses, then marriage might as well not exist.

Common decency should have intervened among the Pharisees, but I guess decency wasn't too common among them.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Please Explain where the above reasons are supported in scripture


May The LORD Bless You and Keep You


Shalom Aleichem

The Scripture requires husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the Church. When a husband does something that destroys a marriage, then he has broken the marriage contract, thereby setting the innocent spouse free from the marriage contract.

Actually I don't really care if there are no actual references in Scripture, because there are sufficient Scriptures that describe God's nature and character that would cover it.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'm mainly saying that God hates divorce. But Christians —particularly legalistic Christians— think it's "ok to divorce under certain circumstances given by Scripture", which is not what scripture says, taken in the whole counsel of Scripture: God hates divorce. Jesus said, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so” (Matt. 19:8). I'm saying that it is human nature to want to justify oneself for doing what one wants to do. I've had people come to me about their marriages, who seemed to want my permission —not my advice.

And no, I'm not saying there isn't a time or reason for divorce. I'm just saying it is remarkable phenomenon, that legalistic people find legalistic reasons to do what they want to do.

The trouble is that many churches shoot their wounded instead of working to rehabilitate them. I think that they get things the wrong way around. Instead of being judgmental toward people who are already divorced, they should apply the strict Scriptures to those who are contemplating divorce, and show those who are divorced the Scriptures that show the grace of God and His willingness to give them a second chance at life as they put their faith and trust in Christ.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

What makes you think we need some explicit permission to divorce for those reasons? Is there some verse in Scripture that says the only allowed grounds for divorce are ones that are explicitly named by Jesus?

If you are looking for some exhaustive list of acceptable grounds for divorce in Scripture, you won't find it. You have to consider the overall tone of Scriptures on the matter to see it. In other words, look to biblical principles, not hard-and-fast rules.

Sometimes we like the hard-and-fast rules because rules allow us to check the boxes and be compliant. If we do A, B, and C then we are compliant. No ifs, ands, or buts. But the tenets of ethics and morality aren't always like that. You can be a thoroughly disgusting, wicked individual and still be compliant with some checklist. But God isn't fooled.

If Jesus had not been pressured by the group of Pharisees who were trying to trap Him, He would not have mentioned divorce at all. In any case, he quoted it as just one example of a greater righteousness needed than what Moses instructed in Deuteronomy. He never meant to have a hard and fast doctrine on divorce and remarriage based on what He told the Pharisees.

 

[Grafted In]

Ist Corinthians chapter 7

Verse10
And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband.

verse 11
But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

Verse27
Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.

This is pretty clear cut, in my opinion.
But Christians find a million and one reasons to ignore such Scriptures.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Ist Corinthians chapter 7

Verse10
And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband.

verse 11
But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

Verse27
Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.

This is pretty clear cut, in my opinion.
But Christians find a million and one reasons to ignore such Scriptures.

Are you prepared to take responsibility for the death of an abused wife because she followed your instructions not to leave her homicidal violent husband. Shouldn't you be charged with being an accessory to her murder if it is proved that she did not escape because of your direct instructions and quoting of Scripture?

 

[Grafted In]

What does that have to do with remarriage
What does any situation have to do with remarriage?

Verse 11.

The sin is remarriage.

 

[trophy33]

The Scripture requires husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the Church. When a husband does something that destroys a marriage, then he has broken the marriage contract, thereby setting the innocent spouse free from the marriage contract.

Actually I don't really care if there are no actual references in Scripture, because there are sufficient Scriptures that describe God's nature and character that would cover it.

Marriage contracts are not legally defined by Bible, though.

Well, the cause of the epidemic of divorces may actually be that marriage roles are not defined at all and everybody may have their own expectations or change them in any moment. Nothing is on paper, in the opposite to all other legal contracts.

 

[Grafted In]

Are you prepared to take responsibility for the death of an abused wife because she followed your instructions not to leave her homicidal violent husband. Shouldn't you be charged with being an accessory to her murder if it is proved that she did not escape because of your direct instructions and quoting of Scripture?

Your post hardly deserve a response, but I'll do so anyway.
Re-read verse 11.
I'm not instructing anyone. The OP asked a simple question. I responded with what Scripture says. Period.

Walk into any church in the US and what you will most likely see is a reflection of the world. Over half of the members have married divorced and remarried at least once if not a number of times.
What does verse 11 say in your bible,?
Are you prepared to take responsibility for adding to those numbers by instructing those looking to trade in one spouse for for a new one that they have God's ok to do so?
To quote Paul out of text, I speak to your shame.
If a wife is being brutalized by her husband, Paul tells her exactly what God does and does not permit.
Yes, she should get out but she is to remain unmarried or reconciled to her husband.

 

[Grafted In]

Marriage contracts are not legally defined by Bible, though.

Well, the cause of the epidemic of divorces may actually be that marriage roles are not defined at all and everybody may have their own expectations or change them in any moment. Nothing is on paper, in the opposite to all other legal contracts.

Well God put it down on paper.
What does verse 11 say in your bible?
Are you looking to the world for Truth.
If a person divorces their husband or wife and marries another they commit adultery.
But if the one who is put away dies, then and only then are they free to remarry.
It isn't rocket science.

 

[trophy33]

Well God put it down on paper.
What does verse 11 say in your bible?
Are you looking to the world for Truth.
If a person divorces their husband or wife and marries another they commit adultery.
But if the one who is put away dies, then and only then are they free to remarry.
It isn't rocket science.

You cannot go to a court and say the divorce must not be allowed, because there is some verse in your Bible. You will be divorced because of almost any reason (or no reason at all, depends on the country and state) and nobody cares.

 

[Grafted In]

You cannot go to a court and say the divorce must not be allowed, because there is some verse in your Bible. You will be divorced because of almost any reason (or no reason at all, depends on the country and state) and nobody cares.

God cares.
If a person divorces their spouse and marries another, they close the door to reconciliation.
I'm not certain who your God is, but mine is a God of miracles.
He can transform the meanest, most brutal person on earth in an instant.
Would it not be better to wait on Him and pray for His intervention instead of tossing out the one you married and grabbing a brand new one?
Suppose you did do just that, only to later see that He made your discarded spouse an even better person than the one you chose next.
A blessing missed because you looked to the world for answers.
And suppose you had children with your discarded spouse. Now they are forced to take sides because of your hard heart.
Not only that, you may have lead others to follow your example and now they are living in adultery because, well, as a Christian, you lead them down the wrong path by example.
And so on, and so forth.
Around and around we go, playing musical beds. JUST LIKE THE WORLD.

 

[The Liturgist]

What makes you think we need some explicit permission to divorce for those reasons? Is there some verse in Scripture that says the only allowed grounds for divorce are ones that are explicitly named by Jesus?

If you are looking for some exhaustive list of acceptable grounds for divorce in Scripture, you won't find it. You have to consider the overall tone of Scriptures on the matter to see it. In other words, look to biblical principles, not hard-and-fast rules.

Sometimes we like the hard-and-fast rules because rules allow us to check the boxes and be compliant. If we do A, B, and C then we are compliant. No ifs, ands, or buts. But the tenets of ethics and morality aren't always like that. You can be a thoroughly disgusting, wicked individual and still be compliant with some checklist. But God isn't fooled.

In the Eastern Orthodox Church there is an Ecclesiastical Court which handles divorce cases, deciding whether or not a divorce will be accepted by the church, and if so, who is at fault and what penances will be applied (these can include abstinence from foods, prostration, exclusion from the Eucharist, and can last for years, but in the Early Church adultery resulted in a 15 year excommunication, and Sodomy a 35 year excommunication, and also Orthodox canon laws can always be mitigated in their application where it is efficacious to the salvation of the soul (the principle of oikonomia, or economy, versus severity, or akrivia).

 

[trophy33]

God cares.
If a person divorces their spouse and marries another, they close the door to reconciliation.
I'm not certain who your God is, but mine is a God of miracles.
He can transform the meanest, most brutal person on earth in an instant.
Would it not be better to wait on Him and pray for His intervention instead of tossing out the one you married and grabbing a brand new one?
Suppose you did do just that, only to later see that He made your discarded spouse an even better person than the one you chose next.
A blessing missed because you looked to the world for answers.
And suppose you had children with your discarded spouse. Now they are forced to take sides because of your hard heart.
Not only that, you may have lead others to follow your example and now they are living in adultery because, well, as a Christian, you lead them down the wrong path by example.
And so on, and so forth.
Around and around we go, playing musical beds. JUST LIKE THE WORLD.

There is no reason for you to go to the fantasy land of speculations about me. Stick to the topic.

My point is that we are living in the world where divorce is easy and frequent. You can argue with Bible as much as you want, but it does not change the situation that you have no control over if you will be divorced by your spouse or not.

Also, my initial point was that marriage is not defined properly and so anybody in it can say "I do not feel it anymore" and come up with some reason why. If it was properly defined, together with duties each party must deliver for the contract to be still valid, the confusion would be reduced.