Did Adam have Eternal Life Pre-Fall?

[Mark Quayle]

I don't understand how you get that from what I said? The human spirit is the life we need to comprehend God. You don't need another type of life to discern spiritual matters. You don't need another type of life inserted into the spirit in order for it to do what God designed it for.

Here, then, you imply that fallen man has no human spirit since (according to scripture) he cannot discern spiritual things.

 

[Clare73]

As one of my blood brothers would say, You are a poet! You have pointed out a pattern I hadn't considered in the matter. Well done!

Nevertheless, I still don't see the 're-' part of 'reborn' to be in itself a reference to what was lost, but a direct reference to second birth. But the fact that what was lost is regained, is undeniable. And I'm not past admitting and enjoying God's many plays on words/concepts.

As most people conceive of the term, yes. Even the angels are apparently called that, though I don't think it means at all the same thing as how we are sons of God, and nothing like how Christ is THE Son of God. And, of course, you and I both agree there is a huge difference between the notion of 'sons of God' in reference to mere humanity (if the term is even valid there), and the sons of God that will be revealed, for which all creation waits in eager anticipation.

If I remember right, we were trying to pull @sawdust out of a strawman, or something like that. Not sure.

I was thinking in terms where we are in our quandry.

So. . .

Was Adam a son of God?
EDIT: Not a begottten son of God as was Jesus, but as having no human father.
Were any born again as sons of God before the cross?
Were they made sons of God in anticipation of the cross, as those in Ro 3:25 were forgiven in anticipation of the cross?
Are only NT believers sons of God?
Is sonship like all the other NT "remedies," better than what was forfeited?
EDIT: Sonship in the NT is by adoption.
Is rebirth just simply a second birth, the physical birth being the first?
EDIT: Rebirth is a return of God's divine eternal life imparted to the immortal human spirit, which was lost in the fall.

 

[Clare73]

I don't understand how you get that from what I said? The human spirit is the life we need to comprehend God. You don't need another type of life to discern spiritual matters. You don't need another type of life inserted into the spirit in order for it to do what God designed it for.

Oh, but indeed you do (1 Co 2:14).

If you are a son of God, you are born of God (Jn 1:12-13) in the birth from above (Jn 3:3) and, therefore, you bear God's divine eternal life within your spirit.

 

[sawdust]

Here, then, you imply that fallen man has no human spirit since (according to scripture) he cannot discern spiritual things.

Unregenerate man has no human spirit.

 

[sawdust]

Oh, but indeed you do (1 Co 2:14).

If you are a son of God, you are born of God (Jn 1:12-13) in the birth from above (Jn 3:3) and, therefore, you bear God's divine eternal life within your spirit.

We've been through this. That which is born of Spirit is spirit, not eternal life. God is giving birth to spirit, not eternal life within our spirit.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I was thinking in terms where we are in our quandry.

So. . .

Was Adam a son of God?
Were any born again as sons of God before the cross?
Were they made sons of God in anticipation of the cross, as those in Ro 3:25 were forgiven in anticipation of the cross?
Are only NT believers sons of God?
Is sonship like all the other NT "remedies," better than what was forfeited?
Is rebirth just simply a second birth, the physical birth being the first?

NOW, where are we?

Ah. Ok.
1) Yes, in my opinion, Adam was a son of God by all measures, and more, after resurrection.
2) Yes, in my opinion, all saints were born again, and that, of the Spirit, before the cross. There is only one Gospel.
3) Yes, though in my opinion the wording there is for the purpose of temporal understanding. In God's eyes, I don't think there is any difference between the OT elect and the NT elect. The understanding is not necessary for faith.
4) No
5) Yes, as in Adam innocence / sinless ignorance is not of the nature of God's Dwelling Place. I do not believe Adam was the Holy Spirit's dwelling place, prefall.
6) No, not "simply". The 're-' part of it, perhaps, though I'm starting to enjoy the speculation that God has a huge interwoven play on many words going on for us.

 

[GenemZ]

Adam before the fall did not "have" eternal life.

Adam before the fall was able to "learn from" eternal life (God).

In contrast to Adam, we have been given for forever the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit, being God? Is eternal life.
God is eternal life, and we have been given the Spirit forever.
So, it is that we have been given eternal life.

 

[sawdust]

Oh, but indeed you do (1 Co 2:14).

If you are a son of God, you are born of God (Jn 1:12-13) in the birth from above (Jn 3:3) and, therefore, you bear God's divine eternal life within your spirit.

You quote 1Cor.2:14 as evidence of needing something else in the human spirit to comprehend what the Holy Spirit says, yet it says nothing about having eternal life in that passage. So why quote it?

Are where does it say in the John passage about being a son of God means having eternal life? Being born of God means receiving a human spirit. You keep assuming being spiritually alive (being born of God) and having eternal life are the same thing. They are not.

The human spirit God produces in us shares in something of God's immortal and incorruptible nature. To have eternal life is to have the very life of God, a life of glory. They are very distinct.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You quote 1Cor.2:14 as evidence of needing something else in the human spirit to comprehend what the Holy Spirit says, yet it says nothing about having eternal life in that passage. So why quote it?

Are where does it say in the John passage about being a son of God means having eternal life? Being born of God means receiving a human spirit. You keep assuming being spiritually alive (being born of God) and having eternal life are the same thing. They are not.

The human spirit God produces in us shares in something of God's immortal and incorruptible nature. To have eternal life is to have the very life of God, a life of glory. They are very distinct.

Strange how you have a problem with her quoting verses without the exact words "eternal life", yet your whole thesis uses terms and notions never expressed as such in Scripture. Are you ok?

 

[Clare73]

We've been through this.

Then address the following:

That which is born of Spirit is spirit, not eternal life. God is giving birth to spirit, not eternal life within our spirit.

The apostle says otherwise: Sons of God are born of God (Jn 1:12-13) possessing God's divine eternal life (Jn 5:24; 1 Jn 3:14).

 

[Clare73]

Ah. Ok.
1) Yes, in my opinion, Adam was a son of God by all measures, and more, after resurrection.
2) Yes, in my opinion, all saints were born again, and that, of the Spirit, before the cross. There is only one Gospel.
3) Yes, though in my opinion the wording there is for the purpose of temporal understanding. In God's eyes, I don't think there is any difference between the OT elect and the NT elect. The understanding is not necessary for faith.
4) No
5) Yes, as in Adam innocence / sinless ignorance is not of the nature of God's Dwelling Place. I do not believe Adam was the Holy Spirit's dwelling place, prefall.
6) No, not "simply". The 're-' part of it, perhaps, though I'm starting to enjoy the speculation that God has a huge interwoven play on many words going on for us.

Thanks. . .been back to the drawing board, here's the draft:

If given:

1) Those born of God are actual sons of God (Jn 1:12-13) and, therefore, possess God's divine eternal life (Jn 5:24, 1 Jn 3:14) as his sons.
2) EDIT: Delete.
Then:
1) EDIT: Delete.
2) EDIT: Delete.

Conclusion:
EDIT: Delete.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Thanks. . .been back to the drawing board, here's the draft:

If given:

Sons of God are born of God (Jn 1:12-13) and, therefore, have God's divine eternal life (Jn 5:24, 1 Jn 3:14).
Sons of God never lose sonship, God never takes away sonship, they are the elect.

In that use of the term, "son(s) of God", yes indeed.

 

[Clare73]

Adam before the fall did not "have" eternal life.

Adam before the fall was able to "learn from" eternal life (God).

In contrast to Adam, we have been given for forever the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit, being God? Is eternal life.
God is eternal life, and we have been given the Spirit forever.
So, it is that we have been given eternal life.

See my post #271.

 

[Clare73]

In that use of the term, "son(s) of God", yes indeed.

That was an incomplete (misfire) post to which you responded. . .have a look at it now (post #271).

 

[Mark Quayle]

Unregenerate man has no human spirit.

So you say. What spirit does unregenerate man have?

 

[Clare73]

You quote 1Cor.2:14 as evidence of needing something else in the human spirit to comprehend what the Holy Spirit says, yet it says nothing about having eternal life in that passage. So why quote it?

Are where does it say in the John passage about being a son of God means having eternal life?

It says it in "born of God."

To be born of God is to be a son of God (Jn 1:12-13), to be a son of God is to have divine eternal life, just as being a son of your human father is to have human life, or being born of an animal is to have animal life. Like begets like.

Being born of God means receiving a human spirit. You keep assuming being spiritually alive (being born of God) and having eternal life are the same thing. They are not.
The human spirit God produces in us shares in something of God's immortal and incorruptible nature.

In 1 Co 15, the words "mortal" and "corruptible" not only do not mean the same thing, they also do not mean "immoral;"
"mortal" means subject to death,
"corruptible" (phthora) means subject to decay, not subject to immorality, which word is kapeleuo.

To have eternal life is to have the very life of God, a life of glory. They are very distinct.

Which is precisely what Jn 1:12-13 presents and what Jn 5:24, 1 Jn 3:14 states.

 

[Mark Quayle]

That was an incomplete (misfire) post to which you responded. . .have a look at it now.

Thanks. . .been back to the drawing board, here's the draft:

If given:

1) Those born of God are actual sons of God (Jn 1:12-13) and, therefore, possess God's divine eternal life (Jn 5:24, 1 Jn 3:14) as his sons.
2) God never takes away sonship, sons of God never lose sonship, they are the elect.

Then:
1) Since after the fall Adam was definitely not a son of God in the sense of Jn 1:12-13, therefore, Adam was not a son of God before the fall, because sons of God never lose sonship.
2) And, again, this being consistent with God's remedy being more glorious that what was forfeited.

Conclusion:
Rebirth is simply the second (spiritual) birth of the elect after natural birth (not a return to what Adam lost).

What say ye?

Conclusion: Least common denominator! Yay! I always like it when a logical progression brings a simple conclusion! (Small side note: I'm guessing when that happens, the logical progression is usually by way of negating what the conclusion is NOT. (That is, we find ourselves sometimes whittling away at human concepts to find the truth).)

Anyhow, yes! You come to the same conclusion as what I speculated, by a different route. Thus, @sawdust would do well to take note, that what I said (that I don't know of scriptural warrant to prove it) does not mean there is none, in spite of his crowing (post #246). You just showed the warrant.

 

[sawdust]

Strange how you have a problem with her quoting verses without the exact words "eternal life", yet your whole thesis uses terms and notions never expressed as such in Scripture. Are you ok?

And yet you give no examples so how am I meant to respond?

 

[timothyu]

There is a spirit of 'self' and a spirit of God.

 

[sawdust]

Then address the following:

The apostle says otherwise: Sons of God are born of God (Jn 1:12-13) possessing God's divine eternal life (Jn 5:24; 1 Jn 3:14).

First, you keep making the assumption that being spiritually alive (being born of God) means having eternal life. Second you fail to divide what Christ would establish (ie the Church), was to have a unique type of life namely, eternal life. Most OT believers didn't even have the Holy Spirit.

Luke 11:13
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

The average believer had to ask God for His Spirit. He didn't automatically fill the believer then like He does today. They were not baptized, filled or indwelt. Nor did the Father and Son make there home with the believer.

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

The Church is a brand new, never seen before creation!. This is a new dispensation. God is not working with believers today the way He worked in the past. While there are some things that never change, what believers receive has.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.