Did Adam have Eternal Life Pre-Fall?

[timothyu]

All of life except mankind is born blissfully unaware of self. They are the ones with no means to sin. We are born with the means even if not yet doing so. It is who we are.

 

[biblelesson]

We start to die as soon as we sin. It just takes time to die.

Diamond7,
I wanted to reply to your post to explain our sin state.

The sin state of a person and sin committed by a person is completely different.

We are born into sin, Romans 5:12-14, Romans 5:19. This sin relates to the nature we inherited from Adam. So when we are born, our souls are already dead. It has nothing to do with first sinning then dying. Even if a person never commits a sin, that person would still be considered a sinner and condemned in God’s eyes because that person still possess the Adamic nature.

From our sin nature, the Ademic nature, we ultimately commit individual sin. There is no way around it. So, due to the grace of God, He took care of our Ademic nature and buried us on the cross with Christ, Romans 6:4, and God was in Christ reconciling us unto Himself, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

But to go from death (Ademic nature/Adam’s seed), to life (receiving God’s nature, God’s seed) we must believe on God’s Son who died for us.

So then, when a believer in Christ dies, at resurrection, he/she is raised with God’s nature, the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus that leads to everlasting life, Roman’s 8:10, while the old nature remains on the cross.

When a non-believer dies, at resurrection, he/she is raised still with the Ademic nature that leads to the ultimate death, John 8:24. They couldn’t receive God’s nature to have everlasting life, because they didn’t believe on Christ.

We are born sinners, Romans 5:12-14. But God designed salvation in Christ to save us. We are all sinners but thanks to God and His love and mercy we are forgiven in Christ Jesus.

 

[sawdust]

sawdust said:
Yes, the body without the spirit is spiritually dead. That is how Adam became spiritually dead when he sinned. His spirit returned to God who gave it. An immortal and incorruptible spirit could not remain within a corrupted body and the reason our spirit is immortal and incorruptible is becasue it is something of the very nature of God. Spirit gives birth to spirit.

So simple to understand.

Mark Quayle said:
Demonstrate this construction from Scripture, without having to add your POV into the mix.

Specifically, demonstrate your reasoning, from Scripture, that arrives at "His spirit returned to God who gave it". The fact you gave scripture doesn't do anything if you don't show how that Scripture teaches or demonstrates what you claim here concerning Adam. You have come up with a construction in the whole statement, apparently by that one small part, that I don't see in Scripture. Where does it say while Adam was living on earth, post-Eden, he had no spirit.

I didn't claim to be making "Spirit giving birth to spirit" as anything at all. I just want to know how you come up with this construction.

How I "came up with this construction" has been learned over 50 years through questioning and study and more questions and thinking through the things I have been taught and never being content to accept the status quo but rather putting it to the test until all the pieces fit. (not that I am presuming I have finished. I still have questions)

You say you don't make Jn.3:6 as anything at all yet you have been agreeing with Clare73 all the way through when she has been trying to say that what is born of the Spirit is spirit means receiving eternal life. She has not shown Adam had eternal life pre-fall, she simply assumes it. Eternal life is a gift. What sort of gift giver is God if he takes back what He has given? And eternal life is God's life, it is precious to Him. He doesn't just give it out to any Tom, Dick or Adam.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

The point is what you ask, I cannot give, because all teaching and the demonstration of it's veracity is the job of the Holy Spirit. I can give you every piece of scripture I sorted through to show you how I came to understand what I do but if you are not learning from the Spirit you will never understand. I've given more than enough already for anyone to make the same start I did. See post#98 regarding Adam's post Eden spiritual state.

 

[sawdust]

We are born condemned because God imputes Adam's sin to all mankind.

But, David's infant son committed no personal sin, for at that point he was unable to.

Remember? You said this!


David's infant son had no means to sin.

Actually that was two different posters to whom you responded.

 

[Diamond72]

We are born into sin,

What kind of God would create people born into sin?

So when we are born, our souls are already dead.

What kind of God would create dead people? Esp if our soul come from God and He breathes life into us?

when a believer in Christ dies

If we die, then we must still be in sin. Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" We still die and there is no resurrection until Jesus returns.

Ecclesiastes 3:2
a time to be born and a time to die

We are born, we life, we die. Do we even accomplish anything with the life we live, no matter how hard we try? It all returns to dust, to the elements it came from. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
6Remember Him before the silver cord is snapped and the golden bowl is crushed, before the pitcher is shattered at the spring and the wheel is broken at the well, 7 before the dust returns to the ground from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it. 8 “Futility of futilities,” says the Teacher. “Everything is futile!”…

 

[Clare73]

We are born condemned because God imputes Adam's sin to all mankind.

Agreed!

I assume the rest of your post is addressed to another poster.

 

[Clare73]

You're too lazy to show me what I missed?

I see..

What you missed, or what you deny?

Jas 2:26 is an analogy of the material (human body) and the immaterial (human spirit).

As immaterial (faith) without material (works) is dead, so
the material (body) without the immaterial (human spirit) is dead.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You say you don't make Jn.3:6 as anything at all yet you have been agreeing with Clare73 all the way through when she has been trying to say that what is born of the Spirit is spirit means receiving eternal life. She has not shown Adam had eternal life pre-fall, she simply assumes it. Eternal life is a gift. What sort of gift giver is God if he takes back what He has given? And eternal life is God's life, it is precious to Him. He doesn't just give it out to any Tom, Dick or Adam.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

In my question to you, I was not harking back to the discussion concerning Jn 3:6 to make anything out of it. I was only asking how you came up with the construction you did, and particularly the notion that Adam had no spirit post-fall.

I don't understand everything that @Clare73 says, nor follow all her reasoning. But one thing I see her struggling to get across, (and to me it is so simple as to be ludicrous that people don't get it —it isn't her inability to convey the ideas, but something stopping people from following her), is that the term, "spirit" is illusive (ok, yes, I said that for the sake of the pun —the spirit goes where it will, and nobody can predict it (John 3)). The term can refer to many different things, but apparently most people take it to necessarily refer to only one or two things—maybe three at the most.

I do indeed believe that "born of the Spirit is spirit" is a reference to eternal life —i.e. regeneration— though it can in other contexts also be a reference of simple principle that spirit begets spirit or that spirit causes 'spirit-type things' to happen. I don't think that Clare is saying that Adam was regenerated pre-fall, but that he was innocent. And not innocent in the same way as animals are, who have no sin, (though he also had no sin), but as made in the image of God, he was in communion with God, and therefore we can say the Spirit of God was with him. She is not saying that he was, nor that he was not, a believer in the sense that we mean it today. Pre-fall, we can't consider him Redeemed, because he had not even sinned, nor had sin been imputed to him. Please correct me if I'm wrong about what you think, Clare.

Therefore, the sort of "Eternal Life" as Adam had before he fell, was only due to his innocence, and not due to promise or regeneration. I don't consider the presence of the Spirit of God with him to be a gift, but a simple fact common to all truly innocent moral agents; in fact, also, the Spirit of God is also shown to be influential, even to the point of thrall, in unbelievers and believers alike, in special circumstance —that too is not regeneration, though it can be called 'gift', but not irrevocable in the sense you are using Romans 11:29. It is in Regeneration that the Spirit is given as a gift in the Romans 11:29 sense you intend it.

The point is what you ask, I cannot give, because all teaching and the demonstration of it's veracity is the job of the Holy Spirit. I can give you every piece of scripture I sorted through to show you how I came to understand what I do but if you are not learning from the Spirit you will never understand. I've given more than enough already for anyone to make the same start I did. See post#98 regarding Adam's post Eden spiritual state.

I don't think it is to your credit that you have this much gall, as to claim that what you believe was of such integrity as to be attributable to demonstration by the Holy Spirit. I'd be real careful there, if I was you. You are saying that your use of Scripture is THE interpretation it deserves. To quote Job's sarcasm: "No doubt you are the [man], and wisdom will die with you."

And it is considerably insulting to insinuate that I am unable to receive it because I have no such work of the Holy Spirit in me. It doesn't just smack of arrogant self-importance, but of delusion. You imply that the Spirit of God would tell me no different concerning those verses. Really??? Have you no notion that your own pre-conceptions and biases play into your take on any subject?

The kindest thing I can think of to say to you at this point is that you must not be able to, or are too lazy to, or don't think it worth your time to, go to the trouble of showing me from Scripture your construction above, that Adam post-Eden had no spirit. But I think you are unable to.

 

[GenemZ]

Actually that was two different posters to whom you responded.

I see..... After a while I can not tell them apart.
Both appeared to be the same way of thinking.

Then it was two birds with one stoning?

 

[GenemZ]

We start to die as soon as we sin. It just takes time to die.

We are born condemned because God imputes Adam's sin to all mankind.

But, David's infant son committed no personal sin, for at that point he was unable to.

Adam's sin is imputed to us all before we even commit our first sin.

Here is one example of preaching that says what I speak of...

 

[Clare73]

In my question to you, I was not harking back to the discussion concerning Jn 3:6 to make anything out of it. I was only asking how you came up with the construction you did, and particularly the notion that Adam had no spirit post-fall.

I don't understand everything that @Clare73 says, nor follow all her reasoning. But one thing I see her struggling to get across, (and to me it is so simple as to be ludicrous that people don't get it —it isn't her inability to convey the ideas, but something stopping people from following her), is that the term, "spirit" is illusive (ok, yes, I said that for the sake of the pun —the spirit goes where it will, and nobody can predict it (John 3)). The term can refer to many different things, but apparently most people take it to necessarily refer to only one or two things—maybe three at the most.

I do indeed believe that "born of the Spirit is spirit" is a reference to eternal life —i.e. regeneration— though it can in other c ontexts also be a reference of simple principle that spirit begets spirit or that spirit causes 'spirit-type things' to happen.

I don't think that Clare is saying that Adam was regenerated pre-fall, but he was innocent. And not innocent in the same way as animals are, who have no sin, (though he also had no sin), but as made in the image of God, he was in communion with God, and therefore we can say the Spirit of God was with him. She is not saying that he was, nor that he was not, a believer in the sense that we mean it today. Pre-fall, we can't consider him Redeemed, because he had not even sinned, nor had sin been imputed to him. Please correct me if I'm wrong about what you think, Clare.

And that's why you are my official editor!
She is saying that not only was the Spirit of God with him (as with Samuel and Saul), but that in his creation of Adam, God imparted his own divine eternal life to Adam's immortal spirit, which eternal life Adam lost in his rebellion, and which is restored again when one is born from above (Jn 3:3).

I'd be interested in knowing how you would parse that out.

Does rebirth (Tit 3:5) not mean return to life (eternal, Jn 10:28) which man once had?

Therefore, the sort of "Eternal Life" as Adam had before he fell, was only due to his innocence, and not due to promise or regeneration. I don't consider the presence of the Spirit of God with him to be a gift, but a simple fact common to all truly innocent moral agents; in fact, also, the Spirit of God is also shown to be influential, even to the point of thrall, in unbelievers and believers alike, in special circumstance —that too is not regeneration, though it can be called 'gift', but not irrevocable in the sense you are using Romans 11:29. It is in Regeneration that the Spirit is given as a gift in the Romans 11:29 sense you intend it.

I don't think it is to your credit that you have this much gall, as to claim that what you believe was of such integrity as to be attributable to demonstration by the Holy Spirit. I'd be real careful there, if I was you. You are saying that your use of Scripture is THE interpretation it deserves. To quote Job's sarcasm: "No doubt you are the [man], and wisdom will die with you."

Too funny!

And it is considerably insulting to insinuate that I am unable to receive it because I have no such work of the Holy Spirit in me. It doesn't just smack of arrogant self-importance, but of delusion. You imply that the Spirit of God would tell me no different concerning those verses. Really??? Have you no notion that your own pre-conceptions and biases play into your take on any subject?
The kindest thing I can think of to say to you at this point is that you must not be able to, or are too lazy to, or don't think it worth your time to, go to the trouble of showing me from Scripture your construction above, that Adam post-Eden had no spirit. But I think you are unable to.

 

[GenemZ]

What you missed, or what you deny?

Jas 2:26 is an analogy of the material (human body) and the immaterial (human spirit).

As immaterial (faith) without material (works) is dead, so
the material (body) without the immaterial (human spirit) is dead.

You keep failing to see how the word spirit was used.

Pnuema could mean 'breath' not just spirit. You are saying it can not?

But, in the context for the human spirit it never speaks of 'breath.'

Why do you keep denying this fact?

Maybe it shows a 'spirit' of ill will if you insist. (see how context demands a certain meaning?)

"God sent a spirit of ill will between Abimelech and the men of Shechem;
and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech."

Judges 9:23
​

On the othert hand? A Calvinist may assume that God sovereignly wants you to be contrary?

For what you are insisting upon is a spirit of stubbornness after being shown the different meanings of how the word 'spirit' was used.

grace and peace .........................

 

[Clare73]

You keep failing to see how the word spirit was used.

Pnuema could mean 'breath' not just spirit. You are saying it can not?

And spirit (pneuma) can also mean Satan. . .the unillumined reasoning fails.

 

[GenemZ]

What you missed, or what you deny?

Jas 2:26 is an analogy of the material (human body) and the immaterial (human spirit).

As immaterial (faith) without material (works) is dead, so
the material (body) without the immaterial (human spirit) is dead.

What is the difference then between spirit and soul?

You are a soul. Before you were born again you were not spiritual. You could be psychic, but not spiritual.

When you are born again you become a soul with having a human spirit, enabling your soul to know the things of God.

The spiritually dead are only body and soul.

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, ​

for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they ​

are spiritually discerned. " 1 Cor 2:14​

The Greek word translated natural man is psuchikos.

It can be translated "soulish man." Only soul. No human spirit!
Strong's Greek: 5591. ψυχικός (psuchikos) -- natural, of the soul or mind


.......

 

[GenemZ]

It could also mean Satan. . .the unillumined reasoning fails.

How?

I said... Pnuema could mean 'breath' not just spirit. You are saying it can not?

Show an example.

 

[GenemZ]

What you missed, or what you deny?

Jas 2:26 is an analogy of the material (human body) and the immaterial (human spirit).

As immaterial (faith) without material (works) is dead, so
the material (body) without the immaterial (human spirit) is dead.

Dead to God.

 

[timothyu]

So then, when a believer in Christ dies, at resurrection

The thing is there would be no resurrection for believers or non believers had he not fulfilled His mission to promote and bring about the Kingdom in contrast to the ways of man.

 

[Clare73]

Dead to God.

Adam's physical body was not dead to God while he continued to live for hundreds of years.

What does "physical body dead to God while continuing to live for hundreds of years" even mean?

 

[Clare73]

How?

I said... Pnuema could mean 'breath' not just spirit. You are saying it can not?

Show an example.

Read it again. . .stop the nonsense.

 

[Mark Quayle]

She is saying that not only was the Spirit of God with him (as with Samuel and Saul), but that in his creation of Adam, God imparted his own divine eternal life to Adam's immortal spirit, which eternal life Adam lost in his rebellion, and which is restored again when one is born from above (Jn 3:3).

I'd be interested in knowing how you would parse that out.

Does rebirth (Tit 3:5) not mean return to life (eternal, Jn 10:28) which man once had?

You WOULD hand me this assignment! I'm not quite sure just WHAT you are saying so it is hard to parse. It's usually easier to show what a person is NOT saying than what they ARE saying.

It seems fair to say that, pre-fall, God imparted his own divine eternal life to Adam's immortal spirit, though I'm not sure there is Scriptural warrant to attest to that. My way of reasoning concerning that would be —what other kind of life would God impart to Adam's immortal spirit? And what else can be naturally implied by the fellowship of walking and talking with him? But like I said before, the fact that it is eternal is in its nature. Pre-fall, it definitely did not mean that Adam thus became eternal, nor that his nature was of the same sort as the nature of the Redeemed. He had not been born-again.

Titus 3:5's 'regeneration' παλινγενεσίας, is translated variously, "regeneration", "new birth", "born again" and such. The word is actually more literally, "born again", than the γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν of John 3, which is literally, "be born from above". But regardless, I don't think the term is necessarily referencing a return to some former state, even though in the second part it mentions renewal (not rebirth), both of which, I think, are meant to be by the washing, the cleansing, by the Holy Spirit. I think it is talking about a removal of some operative principle — to wit, the filth of sin and its rule over the person. But on the other hand, I certainly find no way it rules out a "return to life (eternal, Jn 10:28) which man once had." And I grant it does seem peculiar it would not only mention rebirth, but renewal. I had always considered the 'renewal' to be the continual cleansing work of the Spirit of God in the Redeemed subsequent to regeneration, until I saw what you mention, here. But I don't see how we can make the parallel definite by this passage. At least, not yet, lol. Forgive me if I'm slow to change my mind!