Are we subject to the Old Covenant today?

[Bob S]

Not being coy Bob, just confused you with the OP and I apologize for that. He is the one who said:

I usually am not as cranky as I was with you. The flu "done got" my wife and me bad. Please forgive me for my harsh response.

I ask that you do not cast aspersions my way as I don't try to 'pull the wool over anyone's eyes' or not debate sincerely. I am human and with all the posts on here and in my thread it became confusing.

I agree, posts are too long. We need to keep them short and to the point. Some things are debated over and over. If our opponents cannot see our point of view, move on to something new. I spend too much time going over the same old stuff. That is my advice and I am sticking to it.

 

[John Mullally]

According to the scripture Jews and Gentiles met on the Sabbath to be preached to every Sabbath

That was spoken in Acts 15:21 specifically concerning a long time tradition of meeting at synagogue on the Sabbath. At that time of Acts 15, many Christians (Jew & Gentile) did not attend synagogues due to persecution.

Jerusalem Decree exempts the Gentiles from needing to keep most of the Mosaic Law (including 10 commandments). Interestingly, the verses that immediately follow, greatly relax the expectations on the Gentiles. The apostles decree that the Gentiles believers did not have to practice almost all the Mosaic laws.

Acts 15:22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. 23 With them they sent the following letter:​

The apostles and elders, your brothers,​

To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:​

Greetings.​

24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.​

Farewell.​

​

Paul indicates that the Jerusalem Decree was in place about 15 years later. Here it is even more clear that the Gentiles were not keeping almost all of the 10 commandments.

Acts 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”​

 

[Lulav]

I usually am not as cranky as I was with you. The flu "done got" my wife and me bad. Please forgive me for my harsh response.

I am sorry to hear that, your wife and yourself will be in my prayers. I truly understand. Thank you for your humbleness and willingness to make amends, you are forgiven brother.
May I also pass on to you something a member here told me about years ago when he was desperately sick and I got some and have used it ever since. It's called Black Elderberry. aka Sambucus. The one I use contains also Vit C and Zinc. You can get it here or look in any colds section in market of pharmacy. I also use the cold and flu formulation as it helps naturally with seasonal and household allergies.

I agree, posts are too long. We need to keep them short and to the point. Some things are debated over and over. If our opponents cannot see our point of view, move on to something new. I spend too much time going over the same old stuff. That is my advice and I am sticking to it.

Be Well!

 

[ralliann]

So if they were already fulfilled in Messiah why after he left were they keeping Shavuot?

It is a memorial of the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant promises of Genesis 17, Genesis 15 and it's fulfillment was an earthly shadow.

The wedding Banquet and crowning of the King has not happened yet.

I think John's baptism, and witness as a prophet was that.
The betrothed bride immersed herself, before the wedding. A concubine was not a betrothed wife. The bridegroom likewise immersed himself.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? {were: or, are }
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

 

[Lulav]

It is a memorial of the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant promises of Genesis 17, Genesis 15 and it's fulfillment was an earthly shadow.

The land covenant? What does that have to do with Shavuot? Circumcision? again, what has that to do with Shavuot?

If anything this was the initiation of the New Covenant, not church as many teach. Shavuot is also the day the first Covenant was given on Mt Sinai, the Torah.

I think John's baptism, and witness as a prophet was that.
The betrothed bride immersed herself, before the wedding. A concubine was not a betrothed wife. The bridegroom likewise immersed himself.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? {were: or, are }
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

I think you need to do some more explaining please. I don't see how that explains the Wedding banquet or the crowning of the KING.

Or those two different passages you put together.

It was GOD the MESSIAH who are one who married Israel at the foot of the mountain after they had washed themselves. So because a flesh body died but was then resurrected Jesus is now another being, not God and can marry another?

 

[Lulav]

No? I am also an heir of Abraham.

Abraham or Jacob?

PS, I am not your brother because..........................?

 

[ralliann]

The land covenant? What does that have to do with Shavuot?

It is a harvest festival isn't it? All things to do with the land which is promised in the Abrahamic covenant. Without the land, their would be no harvest, of anything.

Deut 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

Circumcision? again, what has that to do with Shavuot?

It is with regards to the promise to the fourth Generation of his seed. God bringing to account of sin.
Ge 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet

If anything this was the initiation of the New Covenant, not church as many teach.

I don't know what you mean here. The things spoken concerning the fourth generation of Abraham's seed are given in Genesis 15.

Shavuot is also the day the first Covenant was given on Mt Sinai, the Torah.

No, the first covenant is circumcision actually. In saying first here, it is the first one in operation from the first generation on. I believe the fourth generation as the firstborn here are given a double portion in Abraham. Which tribe Levi became the heir, a kingdom of priests. It is earthly, worldly.

I think you need to do some more explaining please. I don't see how that explains the Wedding banquet or the crowning of the KING.

It has to do with The covenant of Genesis 17. Kings.
The promise of Royal seed was Established in Isaac. With an oath. Kings/ priests. The heirs of Genesis 15, did not have that fulfilled in Moses. Sinai never gave made for kings.
Ge 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

Or those two different passages you put together.

It was GOD the MESSIAH who are one who married Israel at the foot of the mountain after they had washed themselves. So because a flesh body died but was then resurrected Jesus is now another being, not God and can marry another?

All these things were for shadows of the promises made to Abraham in the covenant of KINGS. The new covenant in Christ has fulfilled that covenant. The carnal commandment of circumcision in the flesh being disannulled. The Apostles are the Church of the firstborn (double portion) earthly worldly, vs eternal and heavenly. It's all about Abraham and the promises made to him. We in Christ are all seed of Abraham.

 

[Doug Brents]

Abraham or Jacob?

PS, I am not your brother because..........................?

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and co-heir with Jesus.

 

[sparow]

I see everything you are talking about, right up to the seventh thousand years since creation and the eighth thousand years.

The thousand year reign occurs after the Second Coming, and the Earth, the stars, and all of creation will be destroyed during the Second Coming (2 Pet 3:10). Everything that follows is purely spiritual in nature (wedding feast, war with Satan, Satan cast into Hell with all his angels and all the lost souls), then the New Earth will be created.

But there is nothing there that even hints at the 7th or 8th millennium.

This is one of those times when the holy Spirit can help. I am of the opinion that books of Daniel and Revelation (that fit together like a hand in a glove), were sealed and have not been fully opened yet. The bloke below believes the Millennium separates the two resurrections, the SDA also I think.


What will life be like AFTER Jesus returns? Here are 7 Facts about the Coming Millennium! - YouTube

 

[sparow]

I see everything you are talking about, right up to the seventh thousand years since creation and the eighth thousand years.

The thousand year reign occurs after the Second Coming, and the Earth, the stars, and all of creation will be destroyed during the Second Coming (2 Pet 3:10). Everything that follows is purely spiritual in nature (wedding feast, war with Satan, Satan cast into Hell with all his angels and all the lost souls), then the New Earth will be created.

But there is nothing there that even hints at the 7th or 8th millennium.

Welcome to the Millennium!

The millennial reign of Jesus Christ will bring world peace, healing, eradicated diseases, and so much more. Discover seven reasons from the Bible to pray “Thy Kingdom come” in this message of hope from Tomorrow’s World.

www.tomorrowsworld.org

I may have sent you the wrong clip before.

 

[Studyman]

Yes, there have been many people throughout Scripture that have been said to be righteous. And you alluded to the answer to this next question in you thesis above: who made them righteous? They were not righteous in themselves, because every person has sinned and fallen short, putting them in the position that they were unworthy of God and could not save themselves. So because they were seeking God, and making the effort to obey Him, God made them righteous.

Great question. I will always defer to the Holy scriptures, which Paul said made him and Timothy wise unto Salvation through Faith, which is in Christ Jesus, when asked a question, and hope to have an honest, unbiased discussion about this very thing.

God, in His Tender Mercy, gave the people who would live after the death and resurrection of the Christ, examples of this very thing, "so they wouldn't lust after the same disregard for God and His word", as those who fell in the wilderness did. It's in 2 Kings 5, if you haven't read it.

In a Story God inspired for His People, Naaman, a non-jew who got Leprosy, was told by a Prophet of God to go wash in the Jordan River, and if he did, he would be cured.

Naaman said basically "what's so great about the Jordan, our rivers are just a good as God's rivers, actually better? And in his stubborn, stiff-necked ways, he chose to remain sick, than Trust the God of Abraham for the Cure.

But those who served him, convinced him to try actually believing in God, and washing in the Jordan River, and so he relented, and sure enough, just as God had promised, when he obeyed and followed the instructions of God, he was changed.

So when Naaman finally denied himself, picked up his preconceived theories and prejudices, (his cross) and followed God and His instruction, and washed in the Jordan River, was he "cleansing himself", or did God Cleanse him?

I believe the answer is he was changed "because" he Believed God enough to be a "Doer" of His Sayings, and not a hearer only. Even though God's instruction didn't make any sense to him at the time, nor did it aligned with the learning he received from the Lands he was born into.

Much in the same way a doctor gives you a prescription for an ailment and instructs you to follow it. Did you cure yourself, when you took the pill? Or did the doctor cure you? And when you are cured, will you say "I cured myself", even though it was your choice to follow the instruction? Only a fool would believe such a thing. And if you see another with the same ailment, will you not recommend to them this same doctor?

So who made Naaman Clean? Who made Abraham Righteous? Who made Zacharias Righteous? God did. But not by carrying Naaman to the Jordan, or making Abraham leave his past life, or forcing Zacharias to reject the religious traditions of the religious men of his time. But by giving them instructions "to follow" and letting them Choose to either "Believe" Him, or another voice in the world HE placed us in.

In fact, this same journey was followed by "EVERY" Example of Faith in the entire Bible. Did some trip, lose focus, become distracted, YES. But like Paul, EVERY example of Faith in the entire Bible, "Pressed toward to mark of the High calling of God", which was in Christ Jesus, even in their weakness, even when they fell, they got up, went forward and not backward. The Spirit of Christ calls this "Faith".

Like the Spirit of Christ inspired John to warn His Body, so they wouldn't be tricked by this world's Religions.

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

"For God is in the Generation of the Righteous"

 

[Doug Brents]

This is one of those times when the holy Spirit can help. I am of the opinion that books of Daniel and Revelation (that fit together like a hand in a glove), were sealed and have not been fully opened yet. The bloke below believes the Millennium separates the two resurrections, the SDA also I think.

2 Pet 3:10 says, “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”
I believe that “the day of the Lord” will be the day of His return, the Second Coming. And in that day, all the Earth, stars, space; all of this reality including time, will be destroyed in fire.

The first resurrection occurs at this same time. Then the thousand years, which is the wedding celebration of Christ and his bride (the church) occurs in heaven. Then the second resurrection occurs, and then Judgment and the second death.

From what I can tell, the prophecies in Daniel were all fulfilled in Christ’s first coming. Christ is the stone that was cut out without hands, meaning, he is not of this world, and that stone fell to earth, during the reign of the kings of the fourth kingdom, which was Rome.

 

[Doug Brents]

God, in His Tender Mercy, gave the people who would live after the death and resurrection of the Christ, examples of this very thing, "so they wouldn't lust after the same disregard for God and His word", as those who fell in the wilderness did. It's in 2 Kings 5, if you haven't read it.

In a Story God inspired for His People, Naaman, a non-jew who got Leprosy, was told by a Prophet of God to go wash in the Jordan River, and if he did, he would be cured.

Naaman said basically "what's so great about the Jordan, our rivers are just a good as God's rivers, actually better? And in his stubborn, stiff-necked ways, he chose to remain sick, than Trust the God of Abraham for the Cure.

But those who served him, convinced him to try actually believing in God, and washing in the Jordan River, and so he relented, and sure enough, just as God had promised, when he obeyed and followed the instructions of God, he was changed.

So when Naaman finally denied himself, picked up his preconceived theories and prejudices, (his cross) and followed God and His instruction, and washed in the Jordan River, was he "cleansing himself", or did God Cleanse him?

I believe the answer is he was changed "because" he Believed God enough to be a "Doer" of His Sayings, and not a hearer only. Even though God's instruction didn't make any sense to him at the time, nor did it aligned with the learning he received from the Lands he was born into.

Much in the same way a doctor gives you a prescription for an ailment and instructs you to follow it. Did you cure yourself, when you took the pill? Or did the doctor cure you? And when you are cured, will you say "I cured myself", even though it was your choice to follow the instruction? Only a fool would believe such a thing. And if you see another with the same ailment, will you not recommend to them this same doctor?

So who made Naaman Clean? Who made Abraham Righteous? Who made Zacharias Righteous? God did. But not by carrying Naaman to the Jordan, or making Abraham leave his past life, or forcing Zacharias to reject the religious traditions of the religious men of his time. But by giving them instructions "to follow" and letting them Choose to either "Believe" Him, or another voice in the world HE placed us in.

In fact, this same journey was followed by "EVERY" Example of Faith in the entire Bible. Did some trip, lose focus, become distracted, YES. But like Paul, EVERY example of Faith in the entire Bible, "Pressed toward to mark of the High calling of God", which was in Christ Jesus, even in their weakness, even when they fell, they got up, went forward and not backward. The Spirit of Christ calls this "Faith".

Like the Spirit of Christ inspired John to warn His Body, so they wouldn't be tricked by this world's Religions.

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

"For God is in the Generation of the Righteous"

Yes, God made them righteous because they obeyed him. Just as we are made righteous when we obey him today. Naaman was cleansed (of leprosy, not sin) when he dipped in the river the seventh time. Abraham we declared righteous because he left Ur, sacrificed Isaac, and obeyed God. Etc. We are told today that when we obey God; repent, confess Jesus, and submit to baptism, we will be forgiven, be united with Jesus in His resurrection, and become heirs with Him of Heaven.

Faith, as defined by Heb 11:1, and described by the second half of James 2, is the action we take, the evidence and substance, in response to the unseen, belief. And that faith, those actions, are why God exchanges our sinfulness with Jesus’ sinlessness, and declares is righteous.

 

[Lulav]

No? I am also an heir of Abraham.

As in genealogically or spiritually?

Abraham or Jacob?

PS, I am not your brother because..........................?

The answer is, because I am a woman, therefore a sister.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and co-heir with Jesus.

The creator is not a heir. Not sure why you added that.

 

[Lulav]

@Doug Brents you used to attend a Messianic Congregation but are adamantly against it's teaching now, what happened?

 

[Studyman]

Abraham lied. David was an adulterer and a murderer. Of the others I cannot remember a passage that depicts a particular sin, but even Moses put himself in God’s place when he asked the Israelites, “Shall we provide water out of this rock?” And he struck the rock instead of speaking to it as God commanded. Were they continual, habitual, incessant sinners? No. But did they sin at least once in their lives? Yes (Rom 3:21-26)

It is evil to make judgements such as this against the Lord's FAITHFUL. You can judge yourself, and not bear iniquity, but not those "Whose refuge is the Lord". I know this religious philosophy you promote, that because everyone has sinned, everyone is a Sinner, is popular in the religions of this world I was born into. But this kind of wickedness should be called out and resisted. Religious men of this world have judged God's People in this way, since Cain judged Abel. Calling David a murderer and Adulterer, is the same falsehood as calling Naaman a Leper, or Noah a drunk. It is a lie, and a false judgment. No doubt the mainstream preachers of Jesus Time continued to call the woman they condemned for adultery, an adulterous woman, just as you continue to call David an adulterer. But even a short study will show that the Rock of Israel did not continue to Judge either David, or this woman in this manner. Actually, their judgment was the absolute opposite.

Have all men sinned, Yes. But all men are not fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners.

Instead of using David's sin to justify your own religious philosophy, why not strive to understand why this story is written for us in the first place?

Was it God's intent in inspiring this story of David to be written, to promote that David is nothing but a murderer and adulterer as you have promoted here? No different than the Pharisees as you promote Paul is teaching in Rom. 3?

That David and Abraham and Paul and the Body of Christ, all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.

No Brent, the influences of this world's religions have deceived you. Abraham was not a Liar, even though in his weakness, he lied. Noah was not a drunk, though in his weakness he got drunk, and David was not a murderer and adulterer, even in his weakness, he killed and committed adultery.

As it is written;

Ez. 18: 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Unless a man has adopted the religions of this world, in that case their sins are never forgotten, and proclaimed to the world over and over for centuries. And God knew men would dishonor HIM in this way and said as much to David.

2 Sam. 12: 14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

No sir, David was not a murderer and adulterer. He was a faithful man of God who deserves a better judgment than the one you push so hard to promote. A judgement no friend of God in the entire Bible made after David's repented, that you also omit in your judgment.

I will have no part of your judgments of Abraham or David Brent.

James 2:10-11 - “For whoever keeps the whole Law, yet stumbles in one point, has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do murder, you have become a violator of the Law.”
Yes, this doctrine does come from Scripture. A violator of the Law deserves punishment by God, and we ALL have violated the Law of God. Yet God provides mercy to those who seek Him.

Yes, judging some of God's Laws as worthy of our respect and honor, while judging other Laws of God as unworthy of our respect and honor, is "Iniquity".

Jesus drove the point home that this is true, especially for those who call Him Lord.

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that "work" iniquity.

Absolutely right, and as I have already said, I do not adhere to any religion of this world, or any of the doctrines that are contrary to the Word of God, of which there are many. I adhere only to the Word of God. And as I have shown above, the doctrine that ALL men are sinners comes directly from Scripture. And so ALL men are in need of a savior: Jesus Christ the Lord.

All men have sinned. That is what Paul teaches. Not All men are sinners, that is what you and this world's religions preach. Just like your judgment of David. You preach, "David is an adulterer and murderer.

But God teaches. And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments:

Yes, all men are in need of repentance and forgiveness, because they sinned.

Heb. 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

You judge according to the old man. God judges according to the new man. Be careful of how you judge, because if God judges you the way you judge Abrahm and David, you will be truly sorry, but it will be too late.

That os exactly Paul’s point as summed up in Rom 3:23.

Paul's point was not that of those Faithful in the Body of Christ There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.

This is the point of Calvinism, or other religious philosophers of this world you have adopted.

Paul is not talking about the faithful, he is talking about those men who knew God, but didn't glorify Him as God. Those men who had the Oracles of God but didn't believe them. Those men who were Slandering Paul and persecuting the Church of God, telling lies about his teaching, like "Let us do evil that good may come". "Whose Damnation is Just".

Is Paul or the Body of Christ better than these men? Is there not but ONE GOD? Listen to Paul, not this world's religions.

"No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

If your religious philosophy, or the philosophy you have adopted is true, then why does Paul not say "WE" are all under Sin? Are you really preaching that after over 14 years since the Christ ascended, those in HIS Body are all "Still under sin"?

And where did Paul "before prove" to the saints in Rome, that both Jew and Gentile are still under sin?

Paul, speaking of the same men who slandered him, tells you, if you can accept it.

Rom. 2: 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Is Paul and the Body of Christ better than the Pharisees that they would not be held by the same standards, of the same God? NO!!! He already taught you how God judges the men of this world. All men have sinned, but those who, as Paul teaches both Jew and Gentile in Acts 26, "that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance". These men are considered righteous in God's Eyes.

Those who don't, even though they call Jesus Lord, Lord, are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[Doug Brents]

As in genealogically or spiritually?

Spiritually, but it makes no difference to God.

The answer is, because I am a woman, therefore a sister.

Please forgive me. I did not look at your bio, so I was unaware. Sister!

The creator is not a heir. Not sure why you added that.

Rom 8:16-17 - “The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.”
Joint heirs (co-heirs) with Christ, who, while in the flesh was a man, and so also became an heir to the promise made to Abraham.

 

[Doug Brents]

@Doug Brents you used to attend a Messianic Congregation but are adamantly against it's teaching now, what happened?

I am not against learning from Torah, nor am I against what is taught in the Synagogue of the Messianic Jews (as long as it conforms to Scripture). I am against the Judiaizer belief that we must continue to keep the Law to be saved.

The rabbi and elders at the Messianic Synagogue here in Atlanta agree with me that we are not subject to the Law of Moses anymore. I just don’t attend there anymore because it is over an hour and a half to drive there, and that is too far to have my daughters (7 & 4 years) engaged in the children’s ministry.

 

[Doug Brents]

It is evil to make judgements such as this against the Lord's FAITHFUL. You can judge yourself, and not bear iniquity, but not those "Whose refuge is the Lord". I know this religious philosophy you promote, that because everyone has sinned, everyone is a Sinner, is popular in the religions of this world I was born into. But this kind of wickedness should be called out and resisted. Religious men of this world have judged God's People in this way, since Cain judged Abel. Calling David a murderer and Adulterer, is the same falsehood as calling Naaman a Leper, or Noah a drunk. It is a lie, and a false judgment. No doubt the mainstream preachers of Jesus Time continued to call the woman they condemned for adultery, an adulterous woman, just as you continue to call David an adulterer. But even a short study will show that the Rock of Israel did not continue to Judge either David, or this woman in this manner. Actually, their judgment was the absolute opposite.

This has been thoroughly answered in the private rebuke you sent me, but I will answer it again here for the benefit of others.

Yes, David was forgiven, as were the woman caught in adultery, Abraham, Noah, Sampson, Joseph, Peter, Paul, everyone spoken of in Heb 11, etc. But they were forgiven, they needed forgiveness, because they had sinned. That is the point I was making. EVERYONE, EVERY LAST PERSON WHO HAS EVER LIVED, with the exception of Jesus, has sinned. And because of that sin, everyone is in need of the saving blood of Jesus that is the only thing that has ever existed that could wash those stains away.

Have all men sinned, Yes. But all men are not fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners.

1 Cor 6:9-11
And such were some of you, but…. The key is “were”. You keep thinking that I, and other ministers you have heard, am saying that David and the other giants of the Faith remain in their sin. No, they are examples of great men who stumbled and fell, but were lifted back up by a generous God, and they continued to follow Him because of His love in spite of their failings.

Instead of using David's sin to justify your own religious philosophy, why not strive to understand why this story is written for us in the first place?

Was it God's intent in inspiring this story of David to be written, to promote that David is nothing but a murderer and adulterer as you have promoted here?

Not true. I did not say he was “nothing but a murderer and adulterer”.

No different than the Pharisees as you promote Paul is teaching in Rom. 3?

That David and Abraham and Paul and the Body of Christ, all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.

No Brent, the influences of this world's religions have deceived you. Abraham was not a Liar, even though in his weakness, he lied. Noah was not a drunk, though in his weakness he got drunk, and David was not a murderer and adulterer, even in his weakness, he killed and committed adultery.

Does forgiveness of the sin remove the fact that the sin occurred? No.
Does the fact that the sin was forgiven remove the penalty in this world for the crime? No. David’s son died, Noah’s son was cursed (because of his own sin in his father’s drunkenness), etc.
Does a man still serve time (prison) for his crime even though he may be forgiven by God? Yes.

So there is no insult to any of the giants of the Faith to say that they committed the sins they committed. They were human, just as you and I are, and it is inspirational to me to know that they could sin the way they did and still be accounted as some of the greatest people who ever lived.

As it is written;

Ez. 18: 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Unless a man has adopted the religions of this world, in that case their sins are never forgotten, and proclaimed to the world over and over for centuries. And God knew men would dishonor HIM in this way and said as much to David.

2 Sam. 12: 14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

No sir, David was not a murderer and adulterer. He was a faithful man of God who deserves a better judgment than the one you push so hard to promote. A judgement no friend of God in the entire Bible made after David's repented, that you also omit in your judgment.

I will have no part of your judgments of Abraham or David Brent.

One final passage for you to think on:
1 John 1:8-10 - “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.”
David would not have said he had no sin.
Abraham would not have said he had no sin.
Peter would not have said he had no sin.
Paul would not have said he had no sin.
Would you?

All men have sinned. That is what Paul teaches. Not All men are sinners, that is what you and this world's religions preach. Just like your judgment of David. You preach, "David is an adulterer and murderer.

That is a false dichotomy.
The saints (of which I am one) are all just forgiven sinners. 1 Tim 1:15 - Paul speaking says, “This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.”

But God teaches. And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments:

Yes, all men are in need of repentance and forgiveness, because they sinned.

Heb. 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

You judge according to the old man. God judges according to the new man. Be careful of how you judge, because if God judges you the way you judge Abrahm and David, you will be truly sorry, but it will be too late.

I am not judging these great men and women, nor do I judge you. I am using the story of their life to make a point about God. But you overlook the point to go off on a tangent about how wrong I am to make note of the sins committed by people on Scripture. God would not have given us a record of their wrongdoing if it was not to be used for our education and edification as we seek to follow Him.

Paul's point was not that of those Faithful in the Body of Christ There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.

This is the point of Calvinism, or other religious philosophers of this world you have adopted.

I haven’t adopted any of this world’s doctrines or philosophies.

Paul is not talking about the faithful, he is talking about those men who knew God, but didn't glorify Him as God. Those men who had the Oracles of God but didn't believe them. Those men who were Slandering Paul and persecuting the Church of God, telling lies about his teaching, like "Let us do evil that good may come". "Whose Damnation is Just".

Is Paul or the Body of Christ better than these men? Is there not but ONE GOD? Listen to Paul, not this world's religions.

"No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

If your religious philosophy, or the philosophy you have adopted is true, then why does Paul not say "WE" are all under Sin? Are you really preaching that after over 14 years since the Christ ascended, those in HIS Body are all "Still under sin"?

Yes, the world is still under sin, and before we were saved by Christ we too were under sin. And even today, sin still tries to reign in our flesh (Rom 6:12), and we must constantly fight against it.

And where did Paul "before prove" to the saints in Rome, that both Jew and Gentile are still under sin?

Paul, speaking of the same men who slandered him, tells you, if you can accept it.

Rom. 2: 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Is Paul and the Body of Christ better than the Pharisees that they would not be held by the same standards, of the same God? NO!!! He already taught you how God judges the men of this world. All men have sinned, but those who, as Paul teaches both Jew and Gentile in Acts 26, "that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance". These men are considered righteous in God's Eyes.

Those who don't, even though they call Jesus Lord, Lord, are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.

You have a great knowledge of Scripture, and I appreciate your passion, but you are barking up the wrong tree. I do not believe that it os disrespectful to the Saints of old to point out their sins as an example of what we can overcome through the mercy of Christ. Nor is it dishonoring to God to say that His greatest men committed sin in their lives. God be praised, He has overlooked my own sin, just as he overlooked David’s and Abraham’s, because of the blood of Christ!!!!!

 

[Lulav]

It is a harvest festival isn't it? All things to do with the land which is promised in the Abrahamic covenant. Without the land, their would be no harvest, of anything.

Deut 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

Not necessarily, there is the harvest of souls and the gathering to Messiah which hasn't happened yet.

It is with regards to the promise to the fourth Generation of his seed. God bringing to account of sin.
Ge 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet

I don't know what you mean here. The things spoken concerning the fourth generation of Abraham's seed are given in Genesis 15.

ok

No, the first covenant is circumcision actually.

When I said first covenant I was speaking of what some refer to as the Old Covenant.

In saying first here, it is the first one in operation from the first generation on. I believe the fourth generation as the firstborn here are given a double portion in Abraham. Which tribe Levi became the heir, a kingdom of priests. It is earthly, worldly.

It has to do with The covenant of Genesis 17. Kings.
The promise of Royal seed was Established in Isaac. With an oath. Kings/ priests. The heirs of Genesis 15, did not have that fulfilled in Moses. Sinai never gave made for kings.
Ge 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

All these things were for shadows of the promises made to Abraham in the covenant of KINGS. The new covenant in Christ has fulfilled that covenant. The carnal commandment of circumcision in the flesh being disannulled. The Apostles are the Church of the firstborn (double portion) earthly worldly, vs eternal and heavenly. It's all about Abraham and the promises made to him. We in Christ are all seed of Abraham.

I was talking about Shavuot

If anything this was the initiation of the New Covenant, not church as many teach.

I don't know what you mean here. The things spoken concerning the fourth generation of Abraham's seed are given in Genesis 15.

You are speaking of something else or I just can't make heads or tails of what you are saying.