Are we subject to the Old Covenant today?

Studyman

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Indeed the quote was incomplete.

Here it is from Romans:

All Have Sinned

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

Thanks so much for the reply. I would like to ask you a few questions. I hope you will be decent enough to answer them, others here are not really interested in an honest back and forth which includes answering and asking important questions.

In your understanding, why did Paul say "That they are all under sin" and not " that we are all under sin"?

Because it seems "many", who come in Christ's Name, are teaching that Paul is saying that both the Body of Christ, and the Jews who had the Oracles of God, but didn't believe them, are the same, and the followed was applied by Paul to both those who "Believed" and those who didn't.

10 As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open [d]tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

That would mean Paul is saying that Jesus, even after over 14 years, was not able to bring even ONE person, "no not one" into a Righteousness that Exceeds the Righteousness of the Pharisees?

Matt. 5: 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Are you also, like many, teaching that the members of the Body of Christ "“Their throat is an open [d]tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit”?

In your own Bible, didn't Paul say; 1 Cor. 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived:


And now it seems, certainly according to popular religious philosophy, that there is no difference between the repentant, and the unrepentant, according to Paul. I don't believe this popular teaching of Rom. 3 and provide the following as the reason for my Faith. I so hope you will engage.

Seems Paul taught an incomplete quote of not one instance of the the Psalm but Two. But Both have the subject in the very first part so we know who David is speaking of................

Exactly. We know who David was speaking of, So who was Paul speaking of? Let's let him tell us.

Rom. 3: 1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Was Paul speaking about himself here, or the Body of Christ? Or was he speaking about men who had God's Word, but didn't believe Him?

5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

Who is accusing Paul of Lying? Who is Judging Paul as a Sinner here? Is Paul judging himself, or are there others, who profess to know God, but don't believe His Oracles, judging Paul as a Sinner?

8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

Who is Slandering Paul here? God? Jesus? God's Word? Or unbelieving Jews? Whose Damnation is Just? Is Paul condemning the Body of Christ? Himself? Or those unbelievers who are slandering him.

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they (Whose Damnation is just) are all under sin;

Is Paul and the Body of Christ, even after 14 years, still under sin? Or is he speaking to those unbelievers who were slandering him, "whose Damnation is Just"?

These are relevant questions I have, and I am excited to see your answers.

One last thing to consider though. Paul said "for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin". Where did Paul prove this to the Roman's?

Was it not in Roman's 2 where he was also addressing men who; "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,"

Shall we not also consider Paul's words where he is proving "both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin"?

Rom. 2: 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? (If one believes, Yes?)

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart (Unbelieving heart, Yes?) treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; (Found in the Oracles of God, Yes?)

6 Who will render to every man ( Jew and Gentile) according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing (Body of Christ, Yes?) seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, ( unbelievers who were slandering Paul, persecuting the church of God, Yes?) indignation and wrath, (Whose Damnation is Just)

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Are Jews better than Gentiles? No, in no wise, as Paul has proven, we are all judged by our deeds. We are all under the same God. Those "children of men", those "workers of iniquity", who had the Oracles of God, but persecute and slander those who refuge is the Lord, there is no "good" in them. Their damnation is just.

Psalms 5: 4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

7 But as for me, I will come into thy house in the multitude of thy mercy: and in thy fear will I worship toward thy holy temple.

8 Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face.

9 For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.

10 Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee.

Rom. 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

But not all remain in sin. There are those who "Yield themselves" to obey God, these become "Servants of God's Righteousness", through the Grace and Mercy that God's Shows those who believe Him. As Paul also teaches.

Rom. 6: 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. (The Body of Christ)
 
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Lulav

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Because of the remainder of the facts. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
The wedding Banquet and crowning of the King has not happened yet.
 
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safswan

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The problem that Paul described in Titus 3:9-11 was not in regard to people who are only interested in teaching, but not in listening. Furthermore, people can be entrenched on one topic while being open to discuss other topics, so it is is not black and white that someone is either willing to learn or only intends to teach, and even one a topic where that is true for someone, then that is not necessarily a bad thing. For example, those who participate in formal debates tend to have done a lot of research on a particular topic, so they are justifiably entrenched, and their goal of interacting with their opponent is not to try to convince them, but to teach the audience. So even if it is doubtful that their discussion will bear fruit with their opponents they can still bear fruit with their audience, and in a similar manner, a discussion on a forum between two people where neither changes their mind can still have fruit for the other readers.



Either there are correct or incorrect reasons for becoming circumcised and Paul only spoke against the incorrect reasons, or according to Galatians 5:2, Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he has him circumcised in Acts 16:3 and Christ is of no value t roughly 80% of the men in the US, so there is easily room to interpret Paul as teaching against becoming circumcised for for incorrect reasons and not as teaching against obeying what God has commanded.

In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus also said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments, which are not listed in the Ten Commandments, though many see the greatest two commandments and the Ten Commandments as being inclusive of the other commandments. In lists like 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Galatians 5:19-21, and 1 Timothy 1:9-10, Paul clearly refers to things other than what is listed in the Ten Commandments.



If someone is here just posts their beliefs and moves on without discussing them as you just recommended, then they would be here just to teach and not here to listen, which is what you were speaking against.
My point was that, persons will not listen because their intention is to teach, because they are convinced of their position. The point of the passage cited was that, there is a limit suggested on how much effort should be made to convince someone who is set in their ways. I don’t believe this is set in stone as it would depend on how long it takes to cover all, or the major points of a subject.

The audience is important in a discussion but to be repeating the same things to the same person in a discussion makes no sense. If the audience is sincerely seeking truth then they will get the point the first or second time. They will also ask questions in order to clarify any point which may be important to them.

On circumcision, the point is that, it is of no value where salvation is concerned so there can be no good reason to perform the same where ones salvation is concerned. Paul used the circumcision of Timothy to assist in the salvation of others.

Love is the aim of ten commandments and the love for and lack thereof towards God and men is diverse and hence even as love is expanded into the two greatest commands and the two into the ten, then so is the ten expanded into others which show the depth of the commands.

My suggestion is multi-fold. Don’t waste too much time discussing subjects with those who are set in their positions. If you are just intent on teaching then just post your position and move on. Choose carefully those with whom you have discussions by judging how open they may be to change. Most importantly, don’t waste your time in meaningless discussions.
 
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Doug Brents

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Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Please, for the purpose of honest examination and discussion of Scriptures, answer a few questions for me.

After the Golden Calf, when a man's Sins were made known to him, what "works" did Moses require in order for the Priest to secure forgiveness from God?
First off, Moses didn’t require anything, God did, and the sacrifice He required for a sin offering was a male goat.

Did Moses say, "If a man sins, and his sin is made known to him, he shall "Love his neighbor as himself", and the Priest shall provide atonement for him?
No
Did Moses say, "If a man sins, and his Sin is made known to him, he shall keep the Sabbath Holy, and his sins are forgiven?
No
What were the "works of the Law" that Moses required, before the Priest would secure forgiveness for a man?

Now, given what we know about the temple in Christ's days, what "works" of the Law were the Pharisees promoting for justification?
They required the sacrifice of a male goat that was sold or approved by their approved venders (who gave the Pharisees a cut for the privilege of being on the approved list).

Be honest here, don't just work to justify a certain religious theory you may have adopted. Be honest with yourself, and others, and answer these questions with Scriptures that address them.

It's simple, it's just that the religions of this world Jesus and Paul warned about, the religions both you and I are surrounded by, in the Lands God placed us in, don't teach these truths.
This is true, but they don’t teach this because we are no longer subject to any of these laws.
Jesus said the Law and Prophets would be in force "till all is fulfilled". It is the Law and Prophets who Prophesy of the end of the Priesthood Covenant with Levi. Where is the Prophesy of the end of God's Commandments, Statutes and Judgments?

Surely you are not snared by the same popular religious philosophy of this world, that Jesus already "fulfilled" ALL THINGS?

Has Abraham received the Promise Yet?
YES, Christ is the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham. The New Earth is the Promised Land, not the land in the Middle East.
I was replying to your question. "When was the last time you went to Jerusalem to celebrate Passover, or any of the other festivals commanded to be celebrated in Jerusalem?"

The Scriptures I posted, and the ones you posted, were given before Israel even knew of Jerusalem.
This is true, but when you read the quote I posted (Deut 16:16-17) in my reply, you will see that God said to celebrate those three times “at the place which He (God) chooses”. No, they didn’t know yet that it would be Jerusalem, but we do now.
There is no "LAW" to observe the Passover, or other of the Feasts of the Lord, in Jerusalem.
Deut 16:16
The temple wasn't even built until centuries later. So you’re preaching that God Commanded the Israelites to gather in Jerusalem to observe His Passover is false.
No, you just didn’t read the passages that I posted well enough. God commanded that all males come to the Tabernacle (wherever it was) and later to the Temple (which replaced the Tabernacle), and God chose to put His name in Jerusalem as the seat of His Temple.
It is widely taught in the religions of the lands which surround us. But if we would just humble yourself for a minute, and actually read what you posted, we would find that your own post, exposes the falsehood in your own statement.
Are we so quick to judge that we don’t read God’s Word carefully before accusing? There was no falsehood in my statement, just a misunderstanding on your part of the passages I cited. Notice that I even quoted the one that said that God would pick a place and that would be the place they were COMMANDED to go three times a year. If we were still subject to the Old Covenant, then that command would still be applicable to us today. And that was my point in this entire line of questioning of the other poster: if we are still subject to the Old Covenant, then we still must keep ALL of it.

You should consider Dak's admonishment. You are looking at God's Laws through the mind of the Pharisees who were children of the devil. They were lairs and murderers. Where is God's Temple? It's in the Place He Chooses to place it, Yes? When was this ever not the case?
Today, His temple is in our hearts, but before 70AD it was in Jerusalem, and had been for centuries.

Please note, I know God is spirit, and we must worship Him in spirit, but the Old Covenant was mostly focused on the physical doing of it, not the spiritual understanding of it. There was certainly spiritual meaning and importance to the commands, but there were also strict physical actions required. And these were not just the inventions of the Pharisees, but part of the Law itself.
Please my friend, don't cling to this world's religious philosophies and traditions, or seek out men to teach you. Trust in the Scriptures, and the God that Inspired them, especially those Scriptures that the prince of this world preaches are obsolete.
Right back at you.

I have attended worship services my entire life, and have been a member of the Church (the Body of Christ) since I was 14. I have been studying the Scriptures for over 35 years. I have not been learning from any person or group, but actually reading the Scriptures (Old and New Testaments) for myself. When I come to passages that are hard to understand, I seek out many other groups or individuals with differing opinions and perspectives and then compare those understandings with all of Scripture. If there is a discrepancy between the doctrine and the Word, the Word wins, hands down, every time.
 
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Bob S

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I have difficulty with long posts, so I address the title of the thread.


Are we subject to the old covenant today; we shouldn't be; to be subject to the old covenant is to deny Jesus, but the differences between the old and the new are small and are summed up by words like “better”, because we have a person to relate to instead of a spirit; otherwise the terms of the covenant are the same; the Law and the Prophets unchanged; the King is the same; the Kingdom is the same; the confirmation is the same.
I am so sorry that you have not studied the covenants enough to realize the Sinai Covenant was instituted for a much different reason than the New Covenant. The Sinai Covenant was to provide the way God wanted the Israelites to live and become a great nation. That, of course, didn't happen. The New Covenant is all about preparing all mankind to live in our eternal home. The goals of the two covenants are entirely different. It is a complete waste of time and energy to think anyone can revive a covenant that God had to end because of unbelief. The New Covenant should bring everyone hope and joy. Salvation is a free gift and does not require anyone to live under the ritual laws of a past covenant. Not only is the new one just "better" it is superior with better promises. Heb8: 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

The real truth is the New Covenant is not like the old one in any sense. Again, if you cannot see this then you need to study them more.
 
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Bob S

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The wedding Banquet and crowning of the King has not happened yet.
That is a new one for me. Where does it tell us Jesus has to be crowned? So, are you telling us that after Jesus is crowned all those ritual laws will become shadows? Seems like your responses are only digging the hole deeper.
 
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Kent M

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In a conversation with DAQ in another thread, the question moved from whether we were still required to keep the kosher laws of the Old Covenant to whether we were still required to keep any of the laws of the Old Covenant. Below is a summation of my understanding of the modern Christian's responsibility to the Old Covenant based on Scripture, New and Old.

What is the purpose of the Law today?
1 Cor 10:11 - "Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."
The Old Covenant stories are an example to us and as instruction to us; they are history from which we learn.

Rom 15:4 - "For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope."
Again, the Old Covenant Scriptures are for our encouragement and instruction.

2 Tim 3:14-17 - "You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for rebuke, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man or woman of God may be fully capable, equipped for every good work."
The "sacred writings" and "all Scripture" here are the Old Covenant (the New Covenant having not yet been compiled as we have it today). The Old Covenant Scriptures are valuable "for teaching, for rebuking, for correction, and for training in righteousness". However, are they still binding on us today? Are we still bound to obey the Law of Moses? Is our salvation tied to keeping the Law? Or are we freed from the Law?


What then is the purpose of the Mosaic Law and the Old Covenant?
In Galatians 2, Paul tells of his confrontation with Peter. Before some of the Jews came to where Peter was, Peter was living and eating with Gentiles (presumably eating what the Gentiles ate), but when the Jews came Peter withdrew hypocritically from the Gentiles, and caused many of the Christian Jews with him to sin also (Gal 2:11-14).
Gal 2:15-21 - "“We are Jews by nature and not sinners from the Gentiles; 16 nevertheless, knowing that a person is not justified by works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law; since by works of the Law no flesh will be justified. 17 But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Far from it! 18 For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a wrongdoer. 19 For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and ]the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”"
The Law of Moses does not have the capability of making a person righteous before God.

The purpose of the Law was to show us what sin was, and to demonstrate to us that we could not keep the Law of God perfectly no matter how hard we try.
Gal 3:21-29 - "Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? Far from it! For if a law had been given that was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has confined everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, being confined for the faith that was destined to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our guardian to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. 26 For you are all sons and daughters of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise."

The Law was not given to make us righteous, nor was it able to give us life. It was given to be a guardian (some translations say schoolmaster), an educator that would teach us morality and bring us to Jesus when He came. But now that Jesus has come in the flesh, we are no longer under the guardian, but are now under Christ. And this makes us heirs to God's promise to Abraham.
Romans 3:19-20 restates this same point.
"Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin."

But we are told in Jeremiah 31:31-34 that someday a New Covenant would be made with Israel.
"“Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord: “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.”"
This very passage was quoted by the writer of Hebrews in chapter 8. Right after the writer says that we have a High Priest greater than any High Priest of the past (the Old Covenant), who is not able to be a priest of the Old Covenant because He is not of the right House. But He is both our High Priest and King then and forever.
Heb 8:1-7 - "Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord set up, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things by the pattern which was shown to you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, to the extent that He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been free of fault, no circumstances would have been sought for a second."

The OT priests (Levites) served a copy of the Heavenly things, but Jesus is the thing which they copied. But there was fault in the first (Old) Covenant, and so a second was required; a better Covenant based on better promises.
Heb 8:13 - "When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear."
When did He say that there was a New Covenant coming? In Jeremiah. The Old Covenant was made obsolete when Jeremiah was alive, but it did not disappear (cease to be relevant to believers in God) until Jesus came and fulfilled it.
Heb 10:1-10 - "For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the form of those things itself, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually every year, make those who approach perfect. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
“You have not desired sacrifice and offering,
But You have prepared a body for Me;
6 You have not taken pleasure in whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(It is written of Me in the scroll of the book)
To do Your will, O God.’”
8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time."

By His sacrifice on the Cross, Jesus took away the first order (the Old Covenant) to establish the second (New Covenant).
Finally, Gal 4:21-31 gives us a very clear picture from history to depict the reality of the two covenants.
"Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the Law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is speaking allegorically, for these women are two covenants: one coming from Mount Sinai giving birth to children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is enslaved with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written:
“Rejoice, infertile one, you who do not give birth;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For the children of the desolate one are more numerous
Than those of the one who has a husband.”
28 And you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time the son who was born according to the flesh persecuted the one who was born according to the Spirit, so it is even now. 30 But what does the Scripture say?
Drive out the slave woman and her son,
For the son of the slave woman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”
31 So then, brothers and sisters, we are not children of a slave woman, but of the free woman."

The Old Covenant which came from Mt. Sinai is likened to Hagar, the slave mother of the slave son of Abraham who would not be heir.
The New Covenant in Christ is likened to Sarah, the free mother of the free son of Abraham who was heir to the promise.
As we have seen in Gal 3:29 above, those who believe in Christ are heirs to Abraham and the Promise, not those who cling to the Old Covenant.

What does this mean for us today?
Acts 15:8-11 - "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10 Since this is the case, why are you putting God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our forefathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”"
Peter, speaking here to the other Apostles and leaders in Jerusalem, asks a very pertinent question. Why would the Jews seek to put around the necks of the Gentiles a yolk that they themselves had been able to bear? The Jews were and are saved through the grace of Jesus just as the Gentiles of the first century were and are still today.
So then, it is clear when Paul speaks to the people at Colossi that he is telling them that they are not bound to the Law in what they eat, or what festivals they keep, or to keeping the sabbath.
Col 2:16-17 - "Therefore, no one is to act as your judge in regard to food and drink, or in respect to a festival or a new moon, or a Sabbath day — 17 things which are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."
Let no one judge you or criticize you about what you eat or drink, or about a festival you keep or don't keep, or about keeping or not keeping the sabbath, because these things are only a shadow of the real thing, and the real thing is Christ.
Matt 5:17-18 - "“Do not presume that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!""
Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets (the Old Covenant). What does it mean that He "fulfilled" it?
1. He kept them perfectly
2. He fulfilled the prophecies about the Messiah that would come and save both Israel and the Nations.
3. He satisfied the Covenant with God, finishing all the requirements of the Law and making room for a New Covenant to be established that would accomplish the promise made to Abraham.

Heb 4:1-11 - "Therefore, we must fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also did; but the word they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united with those who listened with faith. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
As I swore in My anger,
They certainly shall not enter My rest
,”
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this passage, “They certainly shall not enter My rest.” 6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again sets a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts
.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9 Consequently, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11 Therefore let’s make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same example of disobedience."

From this passage we see that the Israelites were given the sabbath as a rest, but many did not "enter into My rest". Why? Because of disobedience. But then He sets another day. What day? TODAY! Then verse 10 says that the One (Jesus) who has entered His rest has also rested from His works (salvation). So let us make every effort to enter into His (Jesus') rest.
But from what is it that Jesus is our rest? Jesus is our rest from our efforts to be "good enough" or to keep the Law perfectly. He kept the Law, and He offers us His perfection so that we can rest.
Thus, Jesus is the New Testament sabbath, and TODAY is the day to enter into Him.
Unlike a contract which is the exchange of property..a Covenant is an exchange of persons. 'I forever give to you my person and you forever give to me your person'. Unlike us God NEVER breaks His Covenant to us..His gift of Himself to us. The last covenant of the O.T, promises a new and everlasting Covenant. That is found in Matthew 26:26-29 where.. "Jesus took bread, and blessed it and gave it to His Apostles and said, "Take and eat; this IS my body. And He took a cup..He gave it to them saying, "Drink of it all of you; for this IS my blood of the new COVENANT which is poured out for many.." Jesus/God gave Himself to us, body, blood, soul and divinity..in the Eucharist! And His bride the Church comes down the Isle at every Mass to receive Him and and to give herself to Him.. the very definition of a Covenant! "The Spirit and the Bride say "Come." And let him who hears say "Come."
 
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Lulav

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That is a new one for me. Where does it tell us Jesus has to be crowned? So, are you telling us that after Jesus is crowned all those ritual laws will become shadows? Seems like your responses only is digging the hole deeper.
To the unlearned maybe.

Tell me, has this happened yet? Has it been fulfilled?

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

or this?

12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

How about this one, very clear on the majesty of the KING

With trumpets and a voice of a shofar shout before the King YHVH. The sea roars and all that fills it, the world and those who dwell in it. The rivers clap their hands, the mountains sing together for joy before YHVH, for He shall come to judge the earth. He judges the world in righteousness and the people with equity. (Psa 98:6-9)​

Now who is said to Judge the earth?

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all his angels are with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 The people of every nation will be gathered in front of him. He will separate them as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right but the goats on his left.​
34 “Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, my Father has blessed you! Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. Matthew​
and

22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son - John
There's plenty more I could quote but I think that should help you understand.

Do not think that the Crown of Thorns placed on him by the heathen Gentiles was all this King would ever wear. It is a heretitary thing being the one to sit on King Davids throne as Messiah is said to do (in the future still).

Then he brought the king’s son out and put the crown on him and gave him the testimony; and they made him king and anointed him, and they clapped their hands and said, “Long live the king!” - 2nd Book of Kings
Then he took the crown of their king from his head; and its weight was a talent of gold, and in it was a precious stone; and it was placed on David’s head. And he brought out the spoil of the city in great amounts. 2 Samuel
 
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Lulav

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you will see that God said to celebrate those three times “at the place which He (God) chooses”.
Passover/Unleavened Bread
Shavuot - Feast of weeks
Sukkot - Feast of Tabernacles

Do you know why only these three out of seven?
 
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Lulav

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Lulav said:

The wedding Banquet and crowning of the King has not happened yet.
That is a new one for me. Where does it tell us Jesus has to be crowned? So, are you telling us that after Jesus is crowned all those ritual laws will become shadows? Seems like your responses are only digging the hole deeper.

I'm speaking to those who believe that Jesus fulfilled everything so the Commandments are done away with,

A reading of Revelation 19 might also help you to understand that it hasn't happened yet.


Here's a pertinent part:

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.​
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.​
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.​
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.​
 
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Ceallaigh

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The real truth is the New Covenant is not like the old one in any sense. Again, if you cannot see this then you need to study them more.
He told me he's not interested in anything written by Paul. Which probably includes Hebrews since it could have been written by Paul.
 
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Studyman

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First off, Moses didn’t require anything, God did, and the sacrifice He required for a sin offering was a male goat.


No

No

They required the sacrifice of a male goat that was sold or approved by their approved venders (who gave the Pharisees a cut for the privilege of being on the approved list).

Yes, the "works of the law" the Jews were still promoting for Justification in Paul's time, was the Levitical Sacrifices. And yes, they used this Priesthood Covenant God made with Levi, to create a religious business for themselves, basically selling salvation for their own wealth, power, and influence. Much like many of the religions businesses of the world God placed me in.

This is true, but they don’t teach this because we are no longer subject to any of these laws.

Yes, we are no longer required to bring a goat to the Levite Priest to provide for the Forgiveness of our transgression of God's Laws. We are subject to a different Priesthood for justification, like Abraham was. We are to "yield ourselves" to obey God and become Servants of His Righteousness. A Righteousness that is revealed in the Law and Prophets that Paul calls "the Gospel of Christ".


YES, Christ is the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham. The New Earth is the Promised Land, not the land in the Middle East.

I never said anything about the Middle East. The point of the post is to show that Jesus has not Yet "fulfilled All Things". Abraham is still dead and has yet to receive God's Promises. I have Faith that he will receive them, at the Prophesied return of the Lord's Christ, which has yet to be fulfilled.

This is true, but when you read the quote I posted (Deut 16:16-17) in my reply, you will see that God said to celebrate those three times “at the place which He (God) chooses”. No, they didn’t know yet that it would be Jerusalem, but we do now.

Yes, there was never a Commandment of God to go to physical Jerusalem to honor Him in His Holy Feasts. Not then, and not now. The disobedient Jews believed so, and "many", who come in Christ's Name, also believe so.

But Stephen knew better.

Acts 7: 46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob. 47 But Solomon built him an house. 48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? 50 Hath not my hand made all these things? 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

It's important to understand the difference between ancient religious traditions which exist in the Lands God placed us in, and what the Scriptures actually say.

Deut 16:16

No, you just didn’t read the passages that I posted well enough. God commanded that all males come to the Tabernacle (wherever it was) and later to the Temple (which replaced the Tabernacle), and God chose to put His name in Jerusalem as the seat of His Temple.

1 Kings 9: 4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments: 5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.

6 But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:

7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:

And what does your own Bible teach happened?

1 Kings 11: 4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father. 5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. 6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father. 7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon. 8 And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.

Stephen knew this, John the Baptist too.

Matt. 3: 1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, (Not Jerusalem, or the temple in Jerusalem) 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

Why? God told us why, if men would only believe Him.

Are we so quick to judge that we don’t read God’s Word carefully before accusing?
It's a perfectly natural fleshy reaction to justify or defend oneself, or get testy, when the Word of God contradicts a preconceived theory or religious philosophy.


There was no falsehood in my statement, just a misunderstanding on your part of the passages I cited. Notice that I even quoted the one that said that God would pick a place and that would be the place they were COMMANDED to go three times a year. If we were still subject to the Old Covenant, then that command would still be applicable to us today. And that was my point in this entire line of questioning of the other poster: if we are still subject to the Old Covenant, then we still must keep ALL of it.

But you didn't consider what God told Solomon, if you had, you would have never promoted the philosophy that God "COMMANDED" men to go to the temple in Jerusalem 3 times a year. What the Scriptures are trying to impart to you is the Biblical Truth that "Jerusalem" has always been a Spiritual place in the minds of Men, where God's Temple exists. That was their purpose. Just as Circumcision, was always to be of the heart. You are looking at Scriptures through the prism of the Pharisees.

Jesus speaks to this.

Luke 8: 10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Zacharias, Simeon, and Anna all were given to know the Mystery of the Kingdom of God.

Luke 2: 38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

Today, His temple is in our hearts, but before 70AD it was in Jerusalem, and had been for centuries.

In your religion, and the Pharisees religion, this may be true. But not according to the God of the Bible as the Scriptures I posted clearly show.

Please note, I know God is spirit, and we must worship Him in spirit, but the Old Covenant was mostly focused on the physical doing of it, not the spiritual understanding of it. There was certainly spiritual meaning and importance to the commands, but there were also strict physical actions required. And these were not just the inventions of the Pharisees, but part of the Law itself.

Yes, The Law is Spiritual. But the Pharisees were not keeping God's Law. Zacharias, Simeon, Anna were, but the Pharisees were not. Most of the religious traditions of the Pharisees were just their inventions. At least according to the Jesus of the Bible.

Matt. 15: 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

I understand you believe the Pharisees were following God's Law, it is a very popular religious philosophy. But I prefer to place my trust in the Jesus of the Bible, who clearly teaches that the Pharisees were not following God's Laws, but their own religious traditions..
I have attended worship services my entire life, and have been a member of the Church (the Body of Christ) since I was 14. I have been studying the Scriptures for over 35 years. I have not been learning from any person or group, but actually reading the Scriptures (Old and New Testaments) for myself. When I come to passages that are hard to understand, I seek out many other groups or individuals with differing opinions and perspectives and then compare those understandings with all of Scripture. If there is a discrepancy between the doctrine and the Word, the Word wins, hands down, every time.

I appreciate that you have studied.

The preachers of the RCC also studied the Word of God for decades. The Pharisees as well. SDA, Calvinists, Mormons, JW's. In fact, your claim is made by every preacher of every religious franchise in this world God placed me in.

And yet they all promote differing religious philosophies doctrines and traditions which cause those who follow them, to "Transgress God's Commandments".

It seems important to consider that the children of the devil were in charge of the City of David, including the Temple God didn't exist in. And for centuries they had exclusive possession of the Oracles of God that they read but didn't believe. However, there was no other place to hear Moses, so men were forced to hear Moses being read by the children of the devil who influenced "many" by their religious philosophies and traditions. This is one of the reasons Jesus came in the first place.

Zacharias, Simeon and Anna, also studied, but they knew the Christ when HE came.

There is a reason why Zacharias understood the Scriptures differently than the Pharisees. It was the same reason why Abraham understood differently than the inhabitants of Sodom.

Luke 1: 5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Gen. 26: 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Peter confirms this truth after Christ Ascended.

Acts 5: 29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. (No more Levite Priest, but Sin still exists) 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

AS Jesus Himself said " It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
 
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Doug Brents

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Hi Doug Brents,

Where God found fault is expressly stated in the text we've been discussing but you seem to have a predetermined agenda to make the fault lie with God. You say, "I am not the one who said that God found fault with His Old Covenant, He did." This is just mind-boggling. It says it right in Hebrews 8:8 that the fault with the Old Covenant was with "THE PEOPLE." This is such an amazing exercise in futility. God spells out where the fault in the Old Covenant was but you reject that and insist that you can make it say something completely different. Ultimately you're placing blame on God. :confused2:
NO!! I am not placing any blame on God. God found fault with both the people who broke His Covenant, and the Covenant itself. If there was no fault with the Covenant, then there could not have been a “better Covenant, made on better promises”. Yes, the people were at fault. But the Old Covenant could not remove sin. All it could do was roll them forward to Christ (as we are told in Heb 10:1-18).
I'm sure I never intimated that "the 10 commandments are not part of the Old Covenant." I think this is you again conflating the agreement (which was faulty) with what was agreed upon (which is perfect). You're actually the one tryna have it both ways. Is the law perfect as the Bible says, or is it faulty, as you says? Or is it both and? o_O
Did the Law of Moses have a mechanism to forgive sin?
Or did it just put off the sins until the time of Christ, when His blood would actually pay the price for and forgive those sins?

So you tell me, was the Old law perfect? Or is there a better Law that provides full atonement for those who break God’s laws?
Clearly you are adding to the covenant which has a restricting number. It's as if the numeral 10 serves zero purpose. Please explain what you believe is the purpose of placing a numeral with the commandments God wrote with His own finger?

DO NOT ADD to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.

You clearly have no problem rejecting this admonition. Why is that?
This passage (Deut 4:2) is not referring to the 10, but to the full account of all the laws that were spelled out in Exodus through Deuteronomy. And this admonition is applicable today, as long as it is applied to the New Covenant commandments and not the Old Covenant commandments which were made obsolete as Scripture says.
Speaking of the Ten Commandment covenant Moses records that after God gave them that "He added nothing more." Yet somehow you feel free to mix them in with not only the rest of the 603 stipulations, decrees and laws (from which God chose to keep His Ten separate), but also adding this covenant to every other random covenant as if they're all the same agreement.

These are the commandments the Lord proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and HE ADDED NOTHING MORE. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.

If God "added nothing more" and He says "do not add to what I command," don't you think it's pretty brazen to claim that you can add where He didn't and also clearly says not to go there?
Indeed, God did not speak any of the other commandments directly to the people, He spoke them to Moses who passed them on to the People. But these 10 are still part of the whole that was handed down at Mt Sinai. In the allegory in Heb 8, there is no distinction made between the 10 and the other 603, they were all part of the one covenant that was renewed and ratified at Mt Sinai.
No, you're definitely ignoring where God placed the blame and are choosing to reject what He said and apparently insisting He is part of the problem. Is that the case? Is your conflation argumentation a condemnation of God's communication? Let's hear your explanation.
Of course God is not at fault for our sin. But I covered this above.

God didn't change His mind when He identified where the sole problem was with the old agreement. "God found fault with THE PEOPLE." You keep ignoring this clear statement in favor of your apparently predetermined belief that the law is the same thing as the covenant (i.e. conflation). God did not find fault with any of the law He said is perfect. Do you agree with that?
Of course God is perfect, and the Law of Moses is perfect at accomplishing what it was designed to do: revealing sin. But it was wholly incapable of forgiving sin. And so the law, and the Covenant to which it was attached, was made obsolete by another, better covenant with a similar, but better law that makes us more free, not just from sin, but from the letter of the “do this”, “don’t do that” legalism.

When God says "that the promises of the New Covenant are better than those of the Old, we MUST believe that this is so" is true in the case that I've already pointed out to you several times.
  1. Does God make anything less than perfect promises?
  2. Did "the people" make bad promises?
  3. Is there an explicit Bible example of "the people" making a collective promise to obey all that the Lord had said and to be obedient?
  4. Were the promises of "the people" good, bad or ugly?
  5. I've showed you where to locate what the author of Hebrews identifies as fault with the people. Can you show where you find faulty promises which are different than the promises of "the people"?
1- Every one of God’s promises have been fulfilled; God always does what He promises. But that does not mean that all of His promises are the best promise that could be made. The Old Covenant was built on great promises, but the were not the best promises
2- Yes.
3- Several, yes.
4- Honestly meant (probably), but impossible for them to keep because man is fallen.
5- I have also shown you where God said His New Covenant was made on better promises. What promises are better than His Old promises? Salvation, adoption as children, heirs with Christ of the Kingdom, etc.

You are still not appealing to Scripture. The Bible provides several definitions of sin. Why are you avoiding use of any of those?

To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

Your premise about the law being different for different ages is unbiblical (as can be seen by the fact that you make assertions rather than attempt to provide biblical support). Prior to Cain murdering his brother God confronted him and said that "sin is lurking at the door; and its desire is for you...” It's apparent that Cain knew it was a sin for him to murder his brother even though this is before the codification of the law in Exodus (i.e. sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law). Apparently law was known in order for sin to be charged against Cain's account.

Without the law there is no sin, no matter what time period you're in.
Sin is a violation of God’s law (1 John 3:4). Sin is still sin, even if the penalty for sin is not imputed because the law had not yet been spoken. Our conscience knows what right and wrong is, and so, yes, for Cane it was sin to murder Abel, even if the law against it had not yet been stated. But God did not execute Cane for murder, because the penalty for sin was not imputed.

Forgiveness isn't one and done. John says if we confess our sins (plural and implied ongoing) that God is faithful and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from our unrighteousness. "We MUST believe that this is so, unless you believe that this passage of Scripture is not really part of God’s Word. Is that the case?" Why would you need to confess your sins if they're already forgiven?
You are correct, forgiveness is a continual ongoing thing. And if there is not continual repentance, then there is not continual forgiveness (1 John 1:6-10). But this applies only to those who are in Christ. If you have not been washed in the blood of Christ in baptism (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14, Acts 2:38), then you have not been forgiven and are not in the light in the first place, and so do not receive continual forgiveness.
I'm just wondering, are you part of the New Covenant?
Are you asking if I am subject to the New Covenant? Yes, as is everyone who has lived for the last almost 2000 years.
Are you asking if I have been saved under the New Covenant? Again, yes. I believed the gospel (John 3:16, Mark 16:16, Rom 10:9-10), repented of my sins (Acts 3:19), confessed Jesus as my Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and was baptized into Christ (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38) when I was 14 years old. For the last 35 years I have continually worked to remain in the light, confessed my sins to Christ, and repented of them continuously.
If that is not what you are asking, then I apologize that I do not understand what you are asking.
 
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Doug Brents

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Lets see what Paul and David actually said in the snippet you quoted to correct me. "


Rom. 3: 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

So if I understand the religious philosophy you are promoting here, you are preaching that Paul is saying, even after over 14 years since Jesus Ascended, after the Holy Spirit came upon those members of the First Church of God under God's New Priesthood, that the Body of Christ's tongues are still used for deceit, just as the Pharisees who persecuted God's Church, there is no difference between the two. That Jesus wasn't able, even after over 14 years, to bring "ONE" person, "NO NOT ONE" into a Righteousness that exceeds the Righteousness of the Pharisees. I have always been fascinated by how "many" who call Jesus Lord, preach this heresy about Paul and the Body of Christ. We should "test the spirits" of this popular religious philosophy of this world.
You are correct that taking those verses out of context is dangerous, and false doctrines are created when we do so. However, that was not my intention. My point in referencing that passage, and following it up with the other, was to point out that every single human has sinned. There is no one who is healthy spiritually. So when Jesus says He has come to call the wicked and not the righteous, He is saying He has come for everyone (although there are many who believe, like the Pharisees, that they are healthy and not in need of salvation). Those who were God’s chosen people in the Old Testament sinned repeatedly. And today, even those who grow up in Christian homes with Christian parents sin and are lost before they repent, turn to Christ, and are baptized to receive forgiveness of their sins and join the Church.
Paul quoted David in Psalms 14 and 5. In the interest of seeking what Paul was actually teaching, it seems only prudent to examine these scriptures he quoted. Maybe not for those who are simply promoting a specific religious franchise, or religious sect of this world, but for those who hunger For God's truth, let's look are what The Spirit of Christ inspired David to write, that Paul thought important enough to quote him in rom. 3..

Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They (children of men) are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. 5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

So Brent, seeing you are a preacher, correcting and rebuking me and others on this forum, can you tell me who "God's People" are here? Are they "workers of iniquity"? And since you are proclaiming that "there is no one Righteous, no not one", then is God, David and the Christ promoting lies here? And the "Generation of the Righteous" is a false doctrine, a non-existent people?? Or is it possible that you have been led astray as to what Paul and David are really teaching? But just to be certain I am not missing something here, Paul also quoted Psalms 5. So let's look at these inspired Words of the Christ as well.

Psalms 5: 4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. 5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. 6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man. 7 But as for me, I will come into thy house in the multitude of thy mercy: and in thy fear will I worship toward thy holy temple. 8 Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face. 9 For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue. 10 Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee.

So your declaration, "There is none righteous, no not even one", by itself, can be and is used to justify sinners. As you did. But when a person considers "Every Word" which Proceeds from the mouth of God, HIS Truth is revealed, and the context in which you used Paul's Words are exposed as false.
As I said above, my declaration that there is none righteous was not to say that there is no one who is has been made righteous in Christ. Far from it. My point was that every single person, with the notable exception of Jesus, has sinned and was at some point lost. Every single person is in need of salvation. There are some today who, like the Pharisees, believe that they are righteous in themselves and not in need of a savior; they believe they are healthy. My point was that we are all in need of a savior, and without Jesus we are lost.
This is a perfect example of men "Wresting" Paul's Words, to their own destruction. And so as to be sure I am also not in Error, are there other examples of men, who "sinned", fell short of the Glory of God, repented and "by patient continuance in well doing" became Servants of God's Righteousness? Let's see how Gods Word answers this question.

Gen. 6: 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Gen. 26: 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Num. 14: 24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.

2 Kings 18: 2 Twenty and five years old was he when he began to reign; and he reigned twenty and nine years in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Abi, the daughter of Zachariah. 3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did. 4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan. 5 He trusted in the LORD God of Israel; so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor any that were before him. 6 For he clave to the LORD, and departed not from following him, but kept his commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses.

Luke 1: 5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

God is in and has always been in the Generation of the Righteous. For you to preach "There is none righteous, no not even one", without also providing the Biblical truth about those who "Yield themselves" to Obey God, is deceptive. You don't mean it that way, no one does. Thats the point about being deceived. Eve didn't set out to cause so much trouble for Adam. The Pharisees didn't realize they were children of the devil. You can't see the folly in your statement "They thought they were righteous because of their adherence to the Law of Moses, but in reality they were as sinful as the rest of us.

Neither Paul, nor David, and certainly not the Spirit of Christ which inspired them, teaches this religious philosophy. It is taught, but not by the Spirit of Christ.
You are correct, I did not go on to say that we can find salvation through Christ, and so my words could be taken to mean that man is hopeless because there is no salvation. Heaven forbid! Forgive me for that.
In the Pharisees case, they had been told by Moses, the Prophets, and Even the Son of God, that they were disobedient. That they were promoting doctrines of devils, and commandments of men. But they didn't believe Moses, or the God who gave Him his Words, and as a result, they Didn't believe Jesus, who brought the same Words from the same God.

So the next time you hear that voice in your head justifying your religious philosophy by saying "There is none righteous, no not even one. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. in reality they were as sinful as the rest of us."

You remind yourself, "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
 
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Doug Brents

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Thanks for bringing that up because you are under the impression that all is done away with and Jesus fulfilled everything int he Torah and Prophets, but that's not really true.

Three of the seven are still not fulfilled.

Yom Teruah - The day of blowing the shofar, done when announcing the crowning of the King
Hmmm? You are mixing two things here. Tom Teruah is a festival of remembrance. It is specified in the fall during harvest, on the first day of the seventh month, and has nothing to do with the crowning of the King.

Yom Kippur - the day of Atonement
The day of atonement is a foreshadowing of Christ. He fulfilled this day by becoming the atonement that was made for us to cleanse us (Lev 16:30).
Sukkot - the day of in-gathering, of tabernacling with the King
Again, Sukkot is a festival of remembrance of the time of living in tents and hits for 40 years after leaving Egypt. It has nothing to do with the King.
And quit insulting the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, His HOLY MOEDIM (Appointments with his people ) are still HOLY. They may be celebrated by some with traditions, but not because of them.
No disrespect or insult is offered or intended to the Lord God. But these days are no longer Law. They are traditions that are still kept, but they are no longer commands, because they are all part of the Old Covenant that has been made obsolete in Christ!
 
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Doug Brents

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I have difficulty with long posts, so I address the title of the thread.


Are we subject to the old covenant today; we shouldn't be; to be subject to the old covenant is to deny Jesus, but the differences between the old and the new are small and are summed up by words like “better”, because we have a person to relate to instead of a spirit;
All good up to here.
otherwise the terms of the covenant are the same; the Law and the Prophets unchanged;
The Law was given at Me Sinai and is likened to the slave woman mother of slaves that was cast out and proclaimed not an heir with the free sin (the New Covenant).
the King is the same;
King David and Solomon? Great kings indeed, but Jesus is the King of Kings. Unless you consider that Jesus give kingship to David and Solomon, and so was the King of those kings. So if that is your perspective then you are correct.
the Kingdom is the same;
Wrong. The kingdom of Israel is not the same as the Kingdom of God. Israel is a physical, Earthly kingdom. But the Kingdom of God is a spiritual, Heavenly kingdom.
the confirmation is the same.
Not sure what you mean by this.
 
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Doug Brents

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Yes, the "works of the law" the Jews were still promoting for Justification in Paul's time, was the Levitical Sacrifices.
And circumcision, and maintaining the kosher diet, and continuing the annual pilgrimages to Jerusalem, and all the rest of the Old Covenant requirements.
Yes, we are no longer required to bring a goat to the Levite Priest to provide for the Forgiveness of our transgression of God's Laws. We are subject to a different Priesthood for justification, like Abraham was. We are to "yield ourselves" to obey God and become Servants of His Righteousness. A Righteousness that is revealed in the Law and Prophets that Paul calls "the Gospel of Christ".
No, the Gospel of Christ is NOT the Law and Prophets. The Law and Prophets point to the Gospel of Christ, but the Gospel supersedes the Law.
Yes, there was never a Commandment of God to go to physical Jerusalem to honor Him in His Holy Feasts. Not then, and not now. The disobedient Jews believed so, and "many", who come in Christ's Name, also believe so.
Ok. So you believe that Deuteronomy is not God’s Scripture. That is good to know.
Again, you are saying that God’s direct command, that I quoted directly from Deuteronomy (God’s Holy Word) means nothing to you. Those are not the words of the Pharisees or any of the teachers of the Law from Jesus’ day. Those are God’s words as recorded by Moses.
But you didn't consider what God told Solomon, if you had, you would have never promoted the philosophy that God "COMMANDED" men to go to the temple in Jerusalem 3 times a year. What the Scriptures are trying to impart to you is the Biblical Truth that "Jerusalem" has always been a Spiritual place in the minds of Men, where God's Temple exists. That was their purpose. Just as Circumcision, was always to be of the heart. You are looking at Scriptures through the prism of the Pharisees.
Circumcision has also been addressed. The DIRECT COMMAND OF GOD to cut the foreskin from every male of Abraham’s children has already been established. It is not an invitation of man. It is God’s command to the Israelites under the Old Covenant.
Yes, The Law is Spiritual. But the Pharisees were not keeping God's Law. Zacharias, Simeon, Anna were, but the Pharisees were not. Most of the religious traditions of the Pharisees were just their inventions. At least according to the Jesus of the Bible.

Matt. 15: 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

I understand you believe the Pharisees were following God's Law,
No, they weren’t. Where do you get that I said they were.
it is a very popular religious philosophy. But I prefer to place my trust in the Jesus of the Bible, who clearly teaches that the Pharisees were not following God's Laws, but their own religious traditions..
Agreed
I appreciate that you have studied.

The preachers of the RCC also studied the Word of God for decades. The Pharisees as well. SDA, Calvinists, Mormons, JW's. In fact, your claim is made by every preacher of every religious franchise in this world God placed me in.

And yet they all promote differing religious philosophies doctrines and traditions which cause those who follow them, to "Transgress God's Commandments".
Very true. But all of them, like the Pharisees, wrote other, man written, things they based themselves on.
It seems important to consider that the children of the devil were in charge of the City of David, including the Temple God didn't exist in. And for centuries they had exclusive possession of the Oracles of God that they read but didn't believe. However, there was no other place to hear Moses, so men were forced to hear Moses being read by the children of the devil who influenced "many" by their religious philosophies and traditions. This is one of the reasons Jesus came in the first place.

Zacharias, Simeon and Anna, also studied, but they knew the Christ when HE came.

There is a reason why Zacharias understood the Scriptures differently than the Pharisees. It was the same reason why Abraham understood differently than the inhabitants of Sodom.

Luke 1: 5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Gen. 26: 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Peter confirms this truth after Christ Ascended.

Acts 5: 29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. (No more Levite Priest, but Sin still exists) 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

AS Jesus Himself said " It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
Listen to yourself here, then go back and read the passage from Deuteronomy I cited earlier.
 
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ralliann

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Passover/Unleavened Bread
Shavuot - Feast of weeks
Sukkot - Feast of Tabernacles

Do you know why only these three out of seven?
Because they are memorials to the fulfilment of the Abrahamic promises in the covenant made in Genesis 15.
Passover memorial sacrifice to the promised redemption in Genesis 15.
Unleavened bread a memorial feast coming out in judgement of that nation Genesis 15
Feast of tabernacles memorial of entering their rest of inheritance in the land promised in Genesis 15
 
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sparow

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I am so sorry that you have not studied the covenants enough to realize the Sinai Covenant was instituted for a much different reason than the New Covenant. The Sinai Covenant was to provide the way God wanted the Israelites to live and become a great nation. That, of course, didn't happen. The New Covenant is all about preparing all mankind to live in our eternal home. The goals of the two covenants are entirely different. It is a complete waste of time and energy to think anyone can revive a covenant that God had to end because of unbelief. The New Covenant should bring everyone hope and joy. Salvation is a free gift and does not require anyone to live under the ritual laws of a past covenant. Not only is the new one just "better" it is superior with better promises. Heb8: 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

The real truth is the New Covenant is not like the old one in any sense. Again, if you cannot see this then you need to study them more.



No need for you to be sorry about me, I am sorry that I am not able to communicate better. I do not suggest reasons why God does things; The only way I can make sense of it is that the why is given by way of parable where the details are fiction.


What you are calling a new covenant seems to me to be rhetoric without substance, teaching of men; like “salvation is a free gift”, This is a teaching of men, even when the man is Paul; if a real apostle it, it would not be a universal statement but subject to context.


I do not believe that the Law concerning the Priesthood is done away with; the new better administrator has a better program but still according to the Law. You say better promises, but what do you have in mind, what promise; an old promise improved or a new promise?


With Israel of old, God said they failed because they would not enter into the covenant; Paul said, it wasn't Israels fault, the Law failed.


I can consider the covenants individually and do when reading about them; otherwise I consider them collectively, as a progression. The seven days of creation is a type, the next seven thousand years is the anti-type where God creates the Kingdom of God, also known as the house of overcomers (Israel).
 
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Bob S

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He told me he's not interested in anything written by Paul. Which probably includes Hebrews since it could have been written by Paul.
With a belief system like that it is no telling what kind of weird stuff one might conjure. I have had others that deny Paul's writings. They are an authority unto themselves, too bad.
 
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