Eftsoon

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Actually it's scientific as scientists have shown how 2/3rds of the earth would not support
agriculture.

You say "if" but "if" doesn't exist, it's an illusion.

If vegetarians and vegans had their way, we would end up in a world-wide famine, especially here in the US which produces a large quantity of the world's food supply.


The figure is just under 40% that can support the growing of crops. That's enough to feed everyone if used properly. I'll need concrete statistics to prove otherwise.

Even if it's not correct, we combine all the options to compensate for the shortfall. Right now we have vertical farms, in the future we'll be capable of doing crazy things like creating airborne farms and terraforming other planets. Global veganism would then be entirely possible logistically.

I don't really see much point in this line of argumentation. All you're saying is that veganism isn't possible for every human being, so we should just abandon it completely?
 
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JimR-OCDS

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The figure is just under 40% that can support the growing of crops. That's enough to feed everyone if used properly. I'll need concrete statistics to prove otherwise.

Even if it's not correct, we combine all the options to compensate for the shortfall. Right now we have vertical farms, in the future we'll be capable of doing crazy things like creating airborne farms and terraforming other planets. Global veganism would then be entirely possible logistically.

I don't really see much point in this line of argumentation. All you're saying is that veganism isn't possible for every human being, so we should just abandon it completely?

I live in a rural community where the local farmers raise cows, pigs and chickens for human consumption. Their family gardens this year like mine, did poorly because of
the over abundance of rain.

Anyway, there is no way I'm giving up eating meat or consuming milk, eggs and fish.

Bad farming practices isn't a justification for people giving up eating animals.

When lions stop killing other animals to consume, so will I. :D
 
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BeyondET

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Genesis 1:29 tells us God originally gave humans every seed bearing plant for food. Doesn’t this mean his original plan was for us to be vegan? I recently came to Christ. So far I’ve been convicted to give up cigarettes, weed, and sexual immorality. I’ve just finished reading the New Testament for the first time and the only confusing thing for me about Jesus is his endorsement of fish and other animals as food. Cats and dogs are tortured and eaten in China much like pigs, cows, and other animals are here in North America. Do you think God would support factory farming as it is done today when so many plant-based alternatives exist and have been proven nutritionally adequate, not to mention the detriment it is doing to our environment and human health?

plants do not produce B12 and the human body needs the right amount, so if your vegan, you have to watch the low B12 levels.
 
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Isilwen

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That said, vegetarianism is still an option.

Maybe for some people. I have a thing about textures and textures of vegetables and fruits. I don't eat any fruit at all, and a limited amount of vegetables that must be soft for me to eat.

Meat will always be part of my diet and I do not think that it is immoral to eat meat.
 
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Isilwen

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I never heard of the Ebionite or Hebrew Gospel. Apparently they not accepted as
part of the NT Canon by the Church.

However, what you quoted is similar to Jesus saying;
'I desire mercy and not sacrifice. '” (Matthew 9:13). He wasn't
stopping the animal sacrifices taking place in the Temple.
However they did end in 70AD after the Jewish uprising and
the Romans destroyed the temple. Jesus is the paschal lamb
who was sacrificed and the final sacrifice.

In Luke that you point out, Jesus at the fish that was given to him.

However, he wasn't establishing dietary guidelines.

I sometimes feel that this is the stuff that can happen when people aren't in liturgical churches.
 
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Isilwen

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What does being an EMT have to do with it?

As an EMT, we are always eating on the go, sometimes having to eat large meals because we don't know when we'll eat again and we're always stressed.

Is this not what you were saying?
 
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RDKirk

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As an EMT, we are always eating on the go, sometimes having to eat large meals because we don't know when we'll eat again and we're always stressed.

I'm saying that's not a healthy practice, regardless of the fact that you may not have a choice.
 
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RJ Howard

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To me, any diet where you have to take supplements in order not to get sick, isn't a natural diet.
Many people who live by the standard American diet (where they eat a lot of animal products) end up taking supplements too.
 
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RDKirk

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Many people who live by the standard American diet (where they eat a lot of animal products) end up taking supplements too.

Primarily to make up for nutrients no longer readily available in plants. A serious problem has been the depletion of nutrients in the American farmland soil.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Many people who live by the standard American diet (where they eat a lot of animal products) end up taking supplements too.

But they can not take the supplements and still be healthy.

Whereas, in a vegan diet, if they don't take B12, they get sick and cause
damage to their health.
 
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FredVB

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We live in a fallen world, it would seem the original intention was for vegetarianism or veganism. However, it is also clear that God approves eating animals. Vast portions of scripture outline the animals and process allowed for the Hebrews/Israelites. The NT is clear that Jesus approved of eating at least fish and lamb/sheep.

That said, I think it is noble to aspire to being vegan, but one does not have to support factory farming to also be a non-vegetarian. There are many people that are in the middle, people that eat animals raised in environments that are not factory farms and slaughter in a more humane method. There are people that only eat what they hunt or catch. I think these are also noble positions to take. I don't think that we should separate ourselves entirely from the cycle if we are going to eat meat.

God approves eating animals? I don't see anything from passages saying anything so strong. We see everything arranged as shown in Genesis 1 was very good. In Genesis 9 all people in the world had become thoroughly and unredeemably corrupt, and God saw the need to destroy the world as it was because of them, saving the selected animals with one man who found favor with God, with his family, and no others even wanted to join them, when there was warning. So then, after the worldwide flood, there was not enough growing yet for the people and those animals for food, and animals were given into man's hand, quite like Job was given into the hand of Satan, expressed just the same way, fear and terror of men would fall on animals, and God saw that evil and wickedness were always in the hearts of men, far removed from the very good design, when God told Noah he could have meat from them only with meeting parameters, that you who claim that as permission generally don't meet at all, in the same sentence talking about responsibility of murder. No sure approval there.

I never see anything that is humane slaughter, so I don't buy that there is. And I know virtually all meat at a store is from animals slaughtered in industrial agriculture.

But they can not take the supplements and still be healthy.

Whereas, in a vegan diet, if they don't take B12, they get sick and cause
damage to their health.

What's the point? Many who eat animal products are not getting enough vitamin B12 from what they eat, and would suffer just as much as any vegan who is not getting enough vitamin B12, which can be through supplements or fortified items. But there is a high incidence of serious health issues generally later in life though not necessarily so, including heart attacks or strokes from clogged arteries, high blood pressure, cancers, diabetes, morbid obesity, and rheumatoid arthritis, which can be avoided and possibly reversed only with the right way of eating which is without animal products and avoiding processed foods but with meals made from whole foods. Supplements which should be had anyway would still have this totally worthwhile.
 
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tampasteve

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God approves eating animals? I don't see anything from passages saying anything so strong.
Jesus is God. Jesus ate fish and lamb. Thereby God must approve of eating animals. Not to mention all the parts of Leviticus and other OT books that discuss how to slaughter and prepare animals.
 
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Saucy

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Your ministry isn't teaching Christians about veganism. If that's something you care about, fine, bit God allows us to eat meat. Not only that, Paul warned us not to fight over it. Just let others eat what they want.

Also, I wish people wouldn't act like veganism is morally superior or as if it doesn't have its own environmental harm. You need to till many thousands of acres of land, cut down trees, and kill every animal in the ground and even animals on top of it, like deer who are bedding down. There is use of dangerous fertilizers and chemicals that pollute water and kill all types of wildlife. Veganism isn't morally superior.
 
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Saucy

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God approves eating animals? I don't see anything from passages saying anything so strong. We see everything arranged as shown in Genesis 1 was very good. In Genesis 9 all people in the world had become thoroughly and unredeemably corrupt, and God saw the need to destroy the world as it was because of them, saving the selected animals with one man who found favor with God, with his family, and no others even wanted to join them, when there was warning. So then, after the worldwide flood, there was not enough growing yet for the people and those animals for food, and animals were given into man's hand, quite like Job was given into the hand of Satan, expressed just the same way, fear and terror of men would fall on animals, and God saw that evil and wickedness were always in the hearts of men, far removed from the very good design, when God told Noah he could have meat from them only with meeting parameters, that you who claim that as permission generally don't meet at all, in the same sentence talking about responsibility of murder. No sure approval there.

I never see anything that is humane slaughter, so I don't buy that there is. And I know virtually all meat at a store is from animals slaughtered in industrial agriculture.



What's the point? Many who eat animal products are not getting enough vitamin B12 from what they eat, and would suffer just as much as any vegan who is not getting enough vitamin B12, which can be through supplements or fortified items. But there is a high incidence of serious health issues generally later in life though not necessarily so, including heart attacks or strokes from clogged arteries, high blood pressure, cancers, diabetes, morbid obesity, and rheumatoid arthritis, which can be avoided and possibly reversed only with the right way of eating which is without animal products and avoiding processed foods but with meals made from whole foods. Supplements which should be had anyway would still have this totally worthwhile.
Are you saying this from a personal stance or from actual scriptures? Because God does allow eating animals. Many people who eat keto are healthy with a lower risk of heart attack and stroke. It's really sugar and carbs that cause most of those issues, not the meat itself.

Genesis 9:3

Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.

Romans 14:1-23

As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ...

Deuteronomy 14:1-29

“You are the sons of the Lord your God. You shall not cut yourselves or make any baldness on your foreheads for the dead. For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. “You shall not eat any abomination. These are the animals you may eat: the ox, the sheep, the goat, the deer, the gazelle, the roebuck, the wild goat, the ibex, the antelope, and the mountain sheep. ...

Leviticus 11:2

“Speak to the people of Israel, saying, These are the living things that you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth.

Mark 7:19

Since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)

Romans 14:14

I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Are you saying this from a personal stance or from actual scriptures? Because God does allow eating animals. Many people who eat keto are healthy with a lower risk of heart attack and stroke. It's really sugar and carbs that cause most of those issues, not the meat itself.
And saturated fat as found in meat.

Keto May Lead to High Cholesterol and an Increased Risk of Heart Disease​

 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Your ministry isn't teaching Christians about veganism. If that's something you care about, fine, bit God allows us to eat meat. Not only that, Paul warned us not to fight over it. Just let others eat what they want.

Also, I wish people wouldn't act like veganism is morally superior or as if it doesn't have its own environmental harm. You need to till many thousands of acres of land, cut down trees, and kill every animal in the ground and even animals on top of it, like deer who are bedding down. There is use of dangerous fertilizers and chemicals that pollute water and kill all types of wildlife. Veganism isn't morally superior.
You are throwing other stuff on to veganism.
 
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