Is believing/faith a work ?

[Clare73]

A clarification is needed:

Adam and Eve did not lose eternal life.
For eternal life was not yet given to them.

They were created with physical life and spiritual eternal (God's divine) life within their natural human immortal spirits, both of which they lost in the fall, "Dying (spiritually, loss of eternal life), you shall die (physically). (Ge 2:17)

You can not lose what you do not have.
Its why the Lord kept them away from the Tree of Life which was to make them live forever.

Actually, there were two trees in the middle of the garden, the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Ge 2:9).
They were forbidden to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not of the tree of life Ge 2:16-17).

If they had eternal life? It could not be lost. For it is "eternal life!"

1) Eternal is about both
a) the nature, quality of God's life; i.e. divine, and
b) the duration of God's life; i.e., eternal.

2) The duration of the spiritual life itself is eternal, Adam and Eve's possession of it is not.

Those having eternal life can never die!

But I have eternal life, my body will die someday, when my immortal human spirit departs my body.
My natural immortal human spirit never dies, with or without eternal life.

Eternal life is God's divine life dwelling within the natural immortal human spirit.
Adam was created with spiritual eternal (God's divine) life dwelling within his natural immortal human spirit, and he lost it in his rebellion, resulting in loss of spiritual eternal (God's divine) life in his spirit; i.e., spiritual death, absence of spiritual eternal (God's divine) life in the human spirit.
He did not lose his natural immortal human spirit itself, he would have died then without his natural immortal human spirit (Jas 2:26).
He lost only his possession of spiritual eternal (God's divine) life in his natural immortal human spirit, which loss is spiritual death.

Now we are born without spiritual eternal (God's divine) life within our natural immortal human spirits, i.e., in spiritual death (absence of eternal life) and must be born again; i.e., receive that spiritual eternal (God's divine) life within our natural immortal human spirits
in a new "born from above" spiritual birth (Jn 3:3-8) imparting the eternal (God's divine) life again which Adam lost for us.

 

[Clare73]

It's not the loss of eternal life. It is the return of the human spirit to God (in Adam's case).

The return of the human spirit to God is physical death (Jas 2:26), the separation of the immortal human spirit from its physical body.

For us, we never had a human spirit (ie.born spiritually dead) which is why we must be born again.

So James got it wrong.

The natural human spirit/soul is the source of natural life.
When that human spirit/soul departs in time, we die physically (Jas 2:26).

Spirit gives birth to spirit, not eternal life.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh," physical, material. . .and corrupt, made sinful (by the sinful Adam of rebellion).
"That which is born of the Spirit is spirit," non-physical, spiritual. . .and regenerated, cleansed, purified as with water, made spiritual (of the Holy Spirit) rather than fleshly (of the sinful flesh).
Spiritually born of the Holy Spirit is life of the Holy Spirit within one's natural human spirit, which life is eternal (God's divine) life.
Absence of eternal life within one's human spirit is spiritual death.
Absence of one's human spirit itself is physical death

Eternal life is imputed to the human spirit. You cannot have eternal life until you have the right container. Our spirits are the container needed to accept spiritual matters so our souls can feed on the word of God.

Not in the NT, where only righteousness is imputed (Ro 4:1-11), with no eternal life being presented as imputed in the NT.

As I said, we have already done this discussion (you and I) to death. No pun intended.

And which, as I say, doesn't make you in agreement with the NT, as shown above.
So there's still more to be apprehended.

 

[Clare73]

You forget one thing.

Jesus NEVER sinned.

He remained impeccable even while our sins were poured upon his body.

So which is it?
Jesus became sin, or Jesus bore our sin in his body, not in his spirit?

Each sin cut him off from the Father. But each sin DIED with him in spiritual death!
After all of mankind's sins were used up? Jesus could not longer be kept spiritually dead.

If Jesus were spiritually dead, he had to be spiritually reborn.
That's the only way spiritual life is restored in the NT.
Spiritual rebirth of Jesus is nowhere found in the NT.
That is a manufacture of your theology.

For? He himself never sinned.
Jesus did not need to be born again.
For his perfect humanity always remained intact!
It was our sins that were crucified. Jesus had no sin of his own!

Rebirth in the NT is not about rebirth of our humanity, it's about impartation of eternal (God's divine) life within the human spirit.

After the last sin of mankind was finally poured on Jesus to its death?
Jesus then sensed and knew he was back in fellowship with the Father!
That is why it says the following in John 19:28-30.

After this, knowing that everything had now been finished, ​

Which does not imply spiritual death, but fulfillment of all prophecy regarding it (Lk 24:44), as shown by the following:

and so that Scripture ​

would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they ​

soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it ​

to Jesus’ lips. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, ​

he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."​

Jesus sensed and knew the last sin had been taken care of!
Then He made it known to all what had happened by shouting out "IT IS FINISHED!
.... and then voluntarily breathed out his last breath.

grace and peace ........ !

 

[GenemZ]

They were created with physical life and spiritual eternal (God's) life within their natural human spirits, both of which they lost in the fall,
"Dying (spiritually, loss of eternal life), you shall die (physically). (Ge 2:17)

Eternal life is God's life.
Everlasting life is not the same thing.
Everlasting life had a beginning, but will never end.
Eternal life has no beginning and has no end.

Adam started with the potential for everlasting life.
If he ate from the Tree of Life? He could never die, having everlasting life.

Adam never ate from the Tree of Life. If he had? He would have remained fallen forever.
That is why the Lord needed to keep them away from the Tree of Life after they fell!

Genesis 3:22-24

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. ​

He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, ​

and live forever.” ​

​

So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he ​

had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden ​

cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life."​

grace and peace ............

 

[GenemZ]

So which is it?
Jesus became sin, or Jesus bore our sin?

He "became sin."
And, as result?
He "bore" the penalty.
Penalty and sin go hand in hand.
Its like water and wet.


If you have sin, you find penalty.
If you find penalty, its there because of sin.

grace and peace ...........

 

[sawdust]

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh," corrupt, sinful and must be born again of the Spirit.

Which occurs at the Resurrection, not the new birth. Plus it is a transformation not a birth. Births brings something new into the world.

"That which is born of the Spirit is spirit," regenerated, cleansed and purified as with water, made spiritual (of the Holy Spirit) rather
than fleshly (of the flesh).

We have a spirit to have spiritual life but it has to be made spiritual? You make absolutely no sense.

The very verses are contrasting flesh and spirit not convoluting them into the pile of mish-mash you have here.

Spiritually born of the Holy Spirit is life of the Holy Spirit in one's natural human spirit, which is eternal (God's) life.
Absence of eternal life in one's human spirit is spiritual death.

There is no such thing as a "natural" human spirit. This is the very thing Jesus is trying to get through to Nicodemus. Flesh only produces flesh. Nothing else. On the other hand, if you want to understand God and the things of God you will need a spirit and it is the Spirit that generates the human spirit.

It's very simple Clare. Physical death = no body. Spiritual death = no spirit.

The natural man (psuchikos = soulish man = body and soul only) is the one without a spirit which is why he cannot comprehend spiritual matters for they must be spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14 It is not the lack of eternal life that inhibits his understanding. Eternal life follows the new birth. You have to be born again first in order to know God.

And which, as I say, doesn't make you in agreement with the NT, as shown above.

It doesn't make me in agreement with you Clare. Your interpretation simply doesn't make sense. How on earth can the Spirit give birth to that which is eternal? Eternal life has no beginning and no end. He is not giving birth to eternal life. Take a step back and try to see with fresh eyes.

 

[Clare73]

Eternal life is God's life.
Everlasting life is not the same thing.
Everlasting life had a beginning, but will never end.
Eternal life has no beginning and has no end.

In the NT, "eternal" and "everlasting" are the same Greek word (aionios), age lasting;
e.g. Ro 16:26, 1 Jn 5:11, 1Jn 5:13, Lk 18:30, Jude 21, Heb 5:9, Heb 6:2, Heb 9:12, Heb 9:15. etc.

 

[Clare73]

Which occurs at the Resurrection, not the new birth. Plus it is a transformation not a birth. Births brings something new into the world.

"Flesh" is used in two different ways by Paul:
1) principle of corrupt natural human spirit within the body - must have new birth (i.e., impartation of God's divine eternal life within it, thereby transforming it).
2) mortal flesh - transformed at the resurrection.

You have confused 2) with 1).

We have a spirit to have spiritual life but it has to be made spiritual? You make absolutely no sense.
The very verses are contrasting flesh and spirit not convoluting them into the pile of mish-mash you have here.

And I am explaining the meaning of the terms, flesh and spirit, being used in that contrast.

There is no such thing as a "natural" human spirit.

By "natural" human spirit is meant the animating principle of human life, as distinct from God's divine eternal life which dwells within the human spirit of those born of God (Jn 1:12).
The departure of that natural human spirit from the human body means physical death (Jas 2:26) and
the departure of God's divineeternal life from within that natural human spirit means spiritual death,
neither of which is death to the immortal human spirit itself.

This is the very thing Jesus is trying to get through to Nicodemus. Flesh only produces flesh. Nothing else. On the other hand, if you want to understand God and the things of God you will need a spirit and it is the Spirit that generates the human spirit.

It's very simple Clare. Physical death = no body. . .Spiritual death = no spirit

Physical death = no physical life (human breath). . . Spiritual death = no spiritual eternal life (God's breath) within the immortal natural human spirit

The natural man (psuchikos = soulish man = body and soul only) is the one without a spirit

You have confounded the natural life of the human spirit with the spiritual life of the Holy Spirit within the natural human spirit.

The natural immortal human spirit is the animating principle of the human body, without which it dies (Jas 2:26),
the human spirit actually being what animates the soul which then animates the human body (best as we can tell from Scripture).

which is why he cannot comprehend spiritual matters for they must be spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14 It is not the lack of eternal life that inhibits his understanding. Eternal life follows the new birth. You have to be born again first in order to know God.

It doesn't make me in agreement with you Clare. Your interpretation simply doesn't make sense. How on earth can the Spirit give birth to that which is eternal? Eternal life has no beginning and no end. He is not giving birth to eternal life. Take a step back and try to see with fresh eyes.

The Spirit does not give birth to eternal life, rather the new birth by the Holy Spirit imparts eternal (God's divine) life within the human spirit.
We have this treasure (eternal life) in jars of clay (human spirit).

How many times must this be said before you understand what is being said?

 

[sawdust]

"Flesh" is used in two different ways by Paul:
1) sinful nature - must have new birth,
2) natural flesh - transformed at the resurrection.

You have confused 2) with 1).

Except it is Jesus speaking not Paul and there is no confusion. Jesus is speaking of flesh as in the natural body, not the sin nature. We know this because Nicodemus referred to and confused physical birth with spiritual birth. The sinful nature doesn't get to be reborn, it is in the body and is only transformed in the Resurrection.

And I am explaining the meaning of the terms, flesh and spirit, being used in that contrast.

Which is according to your understanding and doesn't necessarily make you correct.

By "natural" human spirit is meant the animating principle of human life, as distinct from God's eternal life which dwells within the human spirit of those born of God (Jn 1:12).
The departure of that natural human spirit from the human body means physical death, and
the departure of God's eternal life from within that natural human spirit means spiritual death,
neither of which is death to the immortal human spirit itself.

Human life is found in the soul not the spirit. It is the soul that is created in God's likeness and image. There is no such thing as a "natural" human spirit. It is an oxymoron.
Again, this is simply your understanding. The natural man has no spiritual capacity. (1Cor.2:14)

You have confounded the natural life of the human spirit with the spiritual life of the Holy Spirit within the natural human spirit.

The natural immortal human spirit is the animating principle of the human body, without which it dies.

It is the soul that gives the body human life. It is the soul that departs the body at death. Only those who are born again have a spirit that can depart. Those held captive by death were souls, not spirits. You only need do a quick search of the words "soul" and "spirit" to see the NT overwhemingly refers to people as souls and spirits as either demons or angels. Adam became a living soul.

The Spirit does not give birth to eternal life, rather the new birth of the Holy Spirit imparts Holy Spirit eternal life to the human spirit.
We have this treasure (eternal life) in jars of clay (human spirit).

So now the Holy Spirit is giving birth to Himself? And you wonder why I disagree with your understanding. Eternal life is not something God simply has, it is what He is. The new birth is the generating of a spirit so we can receive eternal life.

Jars of clay is a reference to our physical bodies. Our spirits are not fashioned from clay, they are generated by the Holy Spirit. Only our bodies (originally) came from the dirt and they are still comprised of the earth's elements.

When are you going to realise the scripture says the Spirit gives birth to spirit. It does not say the Spirit gives birth to eternal life. Please stop trying to say it does.

 

[Clare73]

He "became sin."

Not according to the pattern given by God for the atonement sacrifice, where the animal was made a sin-bearer, not a sinner.
Previously addressed in post #598.

 

[GenemZ]

In the NT, "eternal" and "everlasting" are the same Greek word (aionios), age lasting;
e.g. Ro 16:26, 1 Jn 5:11, 1Jn 5:13, Lk 18:30, Jude 21, Heb 5:9, Heb 6:2, Heb 9:12, Heb 9:15. etc.

Context determines its meaning...

"Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the
whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God."

Psalm 90:2​

God is called 'from everlasting to everlasting.' Not simply everlasting!

Why everlasting to everlasting?

Because God goes back forever (having no beginning) and forward forever (having no end).
That is why God alone is eternal life having no beginning and no end!

Those who have a beginning and no end? They are simply everlasting life, not to be classified as eternal life.
Only God is eternal life!

God will share/give His eternal life with believers as we will be entered into time travel when He wants to show us something to learn from. I believe in that manner is how He will give some eternal life in eternity. We already know that God took Moses back to the time of the creation of this world. That was in a sense a type of time travel.

 

[Clare73]

God is called 'from everlasting to everlasting.'
Not simply, everlasting.

Because God goes back forever (having no beginning) and forward forever (having no end).
That is why God alone is eternal life, having no beginning and no end!

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with with my post #611?

 

[GenemZ]

Not according to the pattern given by God for the atonement sacrifice.
Previously addressed in post #598.

What ever you wish....

You can take that any way you wish.

 

[Clare73]

What ever you wish....

You can take that any way you wish.

He "became sin."
And, as result?
He "bore" the penalty.

In the context of the OT sacrifices and of the NT, he did not become sin, he became the sin sacrifice.

So that the above should be:
And, as result
he became the sin sacrifice
which bore the penalty.

 

[GenemZ]

In the context of the NT, he did not become sin, he became the sin sacrifice.

So that the above should be:
And, as result
he became the sin sacrifice
which bore the penalty.

If you can not understand it, you must change it?

What does the Bible say?
2 Corinthians 5:21 - Ambassadors for Christ

That passage says one thing.
You say another.

Just rest. In due time God will clarify.

 

[Clare73]

Except it is Jesus speaking not Paul and there is no confusion.

Agreed. . .

Jesus is speaking of flesh as in the natural body, not the sin nature.

And we know this, how?
Can he not be speaking of both?
Who taught Paul about the sinful nature and "the flesh?" (Gal 1:11-12)

We know this because Nicodemus referred to and confused physical birth with spiritual birth. The sinful nature doesn't get to be reborn, it is in the body and is only transformed in the Resurrection.

It is not the flesh/sinful nature that must be reborn, it is eternal life lost by Adam's rebellion that must be returned to the human spirit.

Which is according to your understanding and doesn't necessarily make you correct.

Which is according to my understanding of what is basic to orthodox Christianity, and which seems not to be understood here.

Human Being:
The body without the spirit is dead (Jas 2:26).
The human person is composed of material body and immaterial immortal spirit, (Ro 8:16, Heb 4:12, Heb 12:23, Lk 8:55, Ac 7:59, 1Co 5:5), which spirit is the animating principle of its body, and without which immortal spirit the body is dead (Jas 2:26).
This is authoritative NT apostolic teaching.

And we see this understanding applied by Paul (2 Co 5:2-10) when he refers to
the human body as its tent (whose tent?),
by which it is being unclothed in death, and clothed with the resurrection body; i.e. heavenly dwelling (what is being unclothed/clothed with this heavenly dwelling?),
which, when it is at home in the body, it is away from the Lord (what is at home in the body?) and
which can be at home in the body, or away from the body (what is away from the body?).
The answer to these questions is our immortal spirit, stated in the Scriptures above. . .and bringing us to the human soul of Heb 4:12.

In Heb 4:12, we see how hard it is to distinguish between soul and spirit, which are alike both in their nature and in their activities.
In general, the spirit is the higher, while the soul is the lower of the two.
The spirit being the animating principle of life, the soul would be the resulting life in the body,
the human body being the material human animated by the immaterial soul and immaterial immortal spirit.
While body and spirit can be separated, it seems that soul and spirit can only be characterized.

Eternal Life:
Eternal life is God's divine life dwelling within the natural immortal human spirit.
Adam was created with spiritual eternal (God's divine) life dwelling within his natural immortal human spirit, and he lost it in his rebellion, resulting in loss of spiritual eternal (God's divine) life within his spirit; i.e., spiritual death, absence of spiritual eternal (God's divine) life within the human spirit.
He did not lose his natural immortal human spirit itself; he would have died then without his natural immortal human spirit (Jas 2:26).
He lost only his possession of spiritual eternal (God's divine) life within his natural immortal human spirit, which loss is spiritual death.

Now we are born without spiritual eternal (God's divine) life within our natural immortal human spirits, i.e., in spiritual death (absence of eternal life) and must be born again; i.e., receive that spiritual eternal (God's divine) life within our natural immortal human spirits in a new spiritual birth imparting that eternal (God's divine) life within again

When are you going to realise the scripture says the Spirit gives birth to spirit. It does not say the Spirit gives birth to eternal life.

Strawman. . .

It is not the Spirit giving birth to eternal life.

It is the Spirit imparting the existing eternal (God's divine) life to the human spirit by/in the human spirit's rebirth (i.e. receiving within of eternal life) in Jn 1:12-13, Jn 3:3-8.

 

[GenemZ]

Strawman. . .

That was in response to?

sawdust said:
When are you going to realise the scripture says the Spirit gives birth to spirit. It does not say the Spirit gives birth to eternal life.

What you said reminds me more of a response the strawman in the Wizard of Oz may have given.

​

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water ​

and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised ​

at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’​

Spirit gives birth to spirit. Eternal life is a different matter that you still do not understand properly.

We who are regenerate all have everlasting life and have been made capable of knowing the things of God.
Eternal life is being made able to become and be the things of God we have come to know.

Why can we can know this? Because we have been given our human spirit at rebirth.

Look at this:

You already have your human spirit. Right? Yes you do.

Well? Eternal life is something we are waiting for to have.

​

But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith ​

and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait ​

for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life." Jude 1:20-21​

Eternal life is to be baptized and living into the life of God! Not just knowing about it.

That life will happen to us in heaven in the presence of God in our resurrection bodies!

"keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our ​

Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life."​

We are waiting for eternal life.

Right now we do have a spiritual life if we walk in the Spirit. The Holy Spirit who is our contact with eternal life!


grace and peace ............

 

[GenemZ]

Agreed. . .

Not really.... He was made sin for us.
For he *personally* bore the punishment for sin!

English Standard Version
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Berean Standard Bible
God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

Berean Literal Bible
He made the One not having known sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

King James Bible
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

New King James Version
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

New American Standard Bible
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

NASB 1995
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

NASB 1977
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Legacy Standard Bible
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Amplified Bible
He made Christ who knew no sin to [judicially] be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we would become the righteousness of God [that is, we would be made acceptable to Him and placed in a right relationship with Him by His gracious lovingkindness].

 

[Clare73]

That was in response to?

In response to your "The Spirit gives birth to eternal life;" i.e., eternal life itself is born in regeneration by the Holy Spirit.
Or did you mean "the Spirit gives eternal life in the rebirth to eternal life?"

What you said reminds me more of a response the strawman in the Wizard of Oz may have given.

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water ​

and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised ​

at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’​

Spirit gives birth to spirit. Eternal life is a different matter that you still do not understand properly.

My understanding is the orthodox Christian understanding; i.e., God's life, dwelling within the natural immortal human spirit of the born again.

We who are regenerate all have everlasting life and have been made capable of knowing the things of God.
Eternal life is being made able to become and be the things of God we have come to know.]

And once again, "everlasting" (Gr: aionios) and "eternal" (Gr: aionios) being the same thing we, therefore, have both.
That is Christian orthodox understanding based on the Greek, not a denial of the self-evident given by the strawman in the Wizard of Oz.

Why can we can know this? Because we have been given our human spirit at rebirth.

Not according to Jas 2:26, where the body without its spirit is dead, making dead all the bodies of the unregenerated.
That's a lotta' dead bodies walking around. . .

Look at this:
You already have your human spirit. Right? Yes you do.
Well? Eternal life is something we are waiting for to have.

But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith ​

and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait ​

for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life." Jude 1:20-21​

And again, keeping in mind that in the NT "eternal" (aionios) and "everlasting" (aionios) are the same.

And likewise, as salvation is past, present and future, so eternal life is the same:
past = God's life from all eternity,
present = Jn 3:36, Jn 6:47, Jn 17:3,
future = Mt 25:46, Mk 10:30, Ro 6:22.

Eternal life is to be baptized and living into the life of God! Not just knowing about it.
That life will happen to us in heaven in the presence of God in our resurrection bodies!

"keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our ​

Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life."​

We are waiting for eternal life.
Right now we do have a spiritual life if we walk in the Spirit. The Holy Spirit who is our contact with eternal life!
grace and peace ............

 

[Clare73]

Not really.... He was made sin for us.
For he *personally* bore the punishment for sin

Previously addressed in post #598, #610.

And in addition:
God cannot become (equal) sin.
God =/= sin, that's a contradiction of terms, an absurdity. . .and a misunderstanding of 2 Co 5:21 in the context/light of the NT.

God can no more = sin
than an animal can undergo spiritual death in the atonement sacrifice. . .basic orthodox Christianity.