Is believing/faith a work ?

[Brightfame52]

Clare73
Not to mention the meaning of "works" in the context of Paul's writings is "works of the law;" i.e., ordinances.

Sorry clare the word works covers all conditions, doings, acts. And obeying a command defaults into law keeping. Say for instance, if a person believes by their obeying the command to repent, and by doing so, God saves them, forgives them, then thats salvation by keeping the law. It doesnt have to be the law of moses neither. The word law nomos means:

anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command

1. of any law whatsoever
   1. a law or rule producing a state approved of God
      
      1. by the observance of which is approved of God
   2. a precept or injunction
   3. the rule of action prescribed by reason

To believe on Christ is a command 1 Jn 3:23


And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

 

[GenemZ]

Thank you for your effort to inject a bit of sanity into this inane argument. I have refrained simply because I know these folks are much too busy tooting their own horns to actually consider scripture and its context.

It becomes the Christian version of what we sometimes see with Muslim fanaticism. Some souls must fill up that 'void' with an intense determinism in a desire to find a sense of meaningfulness in their lives.

In contrast to their blind fleshly conviction? What God would do for the void would be to fill up their soul with many good doctrines, so the Holy Spirit could bless them with inner tranquility and rest.

 

[sawdust]

Im not misrepresenting what you say, what you say stands or falls on its own, Im restating my point and the point of the thread. Most people condition their salvation on what they do, like believing, repenting or maybe some kind of obedience. Im letting people know that if we condition salvation on anything we do, it becomes a work merit salvation, law keeping salvation.

You are misrepresenting what I'm saying because I have never said what you keep repeating. I have never said we are saved because we believe. I have said we are saved because God has determined to save believers. It is God's determining that saves, not our believing. Nor have I said that I have conditioned salvation on believing. I said God has conditioned salvation on believing or do you think He was only kidding when He said believe in Jesus?

It really isn't rocket science understanding what I'm saying. It just needs a little thought. Unfortunately you're not willing to do that. You prefer to stick with your misrepresentation rather than actually listen. So be it.

 

[Brightfame52]

sawdust

. I said God has conditioned salvation on believing or do you think He was only kidding when He said believe in Jesus?

Thats false, you have not God, dont put your error on God. God conditioned Salvation on Jesus Christ.

 

[Bobber]

Im not misrepresenting what you say, what you say stands or falls on its own, Im restating my point and the point of the thread. Most people condition their salvation on what they do, like believing, repenting or maybe some kind of obedience.

So what? That's what God said we needed to do to be saved.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mk 16:16

If you can't take from that, that God requires some type of obedience then whatever you do put out is not the true gospel.

Im letting people know that if we condition salvation on anything we do, it becomes a work merit salvation, law keeping salvation.

But simply accepting and receiving what God is offering is not seeking to be saved by the keeping of the law. Not by works lest any man should boast has to do with seeking to be saved by the keeping of the Jewish laws.

 

[Bobber]

You are misrepresenting what I'm saying because I have never said what you keep repeating. I have never said we are saved because we believe. I have said we are saved because God has determined to save believers. It is God's determining that saves, not our believing. Nor have I said that I have conditioned salvation on believing. I said God has conditioned salvation on believing or do you think He was only kidding when He said believe in Jesus?

Even if you did say that Sawdust there's still nothing wrong in the statement. We are saved because of what we believe and receive. We hear the gospel and we act upon it. That is the New Testament pattern.

 

[Brightfame52]

So what? That's what God said we needed to do to be saved.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mk 16:16

If you can't take from that, that God requires some type of obedience then whatever you do put out is not the true gospel.


But simply accepting and receiving what God is offering is not seeking to be saved by the keeping of the law. Not by works lest any man should boast has to do with seeking to be saved by the keeping of the Jewish laws.

Sorry God never conditioned salvation on what man does, thats works salvation. God has always conditioned Salvation on what Christ would do on behalf of His People.

 

[Brightfame52]

Even if you did say that Sawdust there's still nothing wrong in the statement. We are saved because of what we believe and receive. We hear the gospel and we act upon it. That is the New Testament pattern.

Thats works salvation to the core. You may as well keep the whole law to be saved because you have abandoned Salvation by Grace through Faith.

 

[GenemZ]

Sorry God never conditioned salvation on what man does, thats works salvation. God has always conditioned Salvation on what Christ would do on behalf of His People.

You're still hung up from hearing the unbalanced "anti-works" message?

God is not against works, per se. He even has arranged for us to do works!

​

For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, ​

which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2:10​

The NT was only condemning a certain type of works..

The hypocritical religious Pharisees were always inventing more works for man to do as to win God's approval. The Jews became accustomed to "doing works" for salvation. That is why you will read in the Gospels certain people asking the Lord "what work must I do to inherit eternal life?"

God does not hate works like you misunderstand the word to mean.

Today it would be like some preacher saying that you must tithe and keep the sabbath to be saved.
And, Jesus said? "Believe on me and to shall be saved."

We need to get the dumbness out of us (thinking like men) and replace it with what the Word says (divine viewpoint) . No longer thinking with what religious men say when what they proclaim distorts the Word without understanding.

The Jews because of the Pharisees, learned to wrongly think about religious works to become saved.
Yet, Jesus showed them about the One Work that does save!

​

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”​

​

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”​

​

John 6:28-29​

Jesus said that the the truth will make us free. Right?

In contrast?

Religion will make us dumb about God.
Its what religion was designed to do.


grace and peace ......

 

[Bobber]

Thats works salvation to the core. You may as well keep the whole law to be saved because you have abandoned Salvation by Grace through Faith.

I most certainly have not . What you're asserting is ridiculous.

 

[GenemZ]

It does not say.... we are not saved "by any work." (singular)

Its says we are not saved by 'works.' (plurality)

One work = believe in Jesus Christ.

Works = works are plurality of deeds in a system assigned to dupes by religious men who lead the dupes to think they can do something to earn the approval of God.

God earned what was needed for our approval. The Cross. We do not earn it.
We must accept it by believing in the Cross to be saved.

How hard is that to do?

Its not.

 

[sawdust]

Even if you did say that Sawdust there's still nothing wrong in the statement. We are saved because of what we believe and receive. We hear the gospel and we act upon it. That is the New Testament pattern.

What quite often goes unrecognised in this discussion on "works" is the "believing is a work crowd" are effectively doing what the Pharisees did but in reverse. Where the Pharisees accumulated what actions constitute work, the "no works" crowd eliminate every action. Faith comes by hearing. ( Rom.10:17) Hearing is something we do, are we to eliminate that as well? And having heard, are we not to give it any thought? Thinking is something we must do too.

If someone who knew nothing were to listen to Brightfame long enough they would have to assume God only saves zombies.

 

[sawdust]

sawdust



Thats false, you have not God, dont put your error on God. God conditioned Salvation on Jesus Christ.

It is not false, the condition is "believe in Jesus". You're the one who wants to take believing (or not believing) out of the mix. Jesus died for all men. The sin barrier is removed for everyone not just a few. He is the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world. Jesus is the pivot upon which men are divided. Our response to Jesus (believing or unbelieving) reveals who and what we are for the Father has determined to save believers and in so doing, His justification is seen among men.

 

[GenemZ]

What quite often goes unrecognised in this discussion on "works" is the "believing is a work crowd" are effectively doing what the Pharisees did but in reverse. Where the Pharisees accumulated what actions constitute work, the "no works" crowd eliminate every action. Faith comes by hearing. ( Rom.10:17) Hearing is something we do, are we to eliminate that as well? And having heard, are we not to give it any thought? Thinking is something we must do too.

If someone who knew nothing were to listen to Brightfame long enough they would have to assume God only saves zombies.

As Christians start out we all must be exposed to some wrong teachings.

The fact that some believers will overcome the same false doctrines that others cling to with their religious flesh?

It leaves God with the following words for them...

................................... "You are without excuse."


For the others whom they might have seen as inferior to themselves who reject the false doctrine?
They were able to see the truth when it was given to them because they were filled with the Spirit.

They saw and understood by grace!


grace and peace ...........

 

[Brightfame52]

You're still hung up from hearing the unbalanced "anti-works" message?

God is not against works, per se. He even has arranged for us to do works!

​

For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, ​

which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2:10​

The NT was only condemning a certain type of works..

The hypocritical religious Pharisees were always inventing more works for man to do as to win God's approval. The Jews became accustomed to "doing works" for salvation. That is why you will read in the Gospels certain people asking the Lord "what work must I do to inherit eternal life?"

God does not hate works like you misunderstand the word to mean.

Today it would be like some preacher saying that you must tithe and keep the sabbath to be saved.
And, Jesus said? "Believe on me and to shall be saved."

We need to get the dumbness out of us (thinking like men) and replace it with what the Word says (divine viewpoint) . No longer thinking with what religious men say when what they proclaim distorts the Word without understanding.

The Jews because of the Pharisees, learned to wrongly think about religious works to become saved.
Yet, Jesus showed them about the One Work that does save!

​

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”​

​

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”​

​

John 6:28-29​

Jesus said that the the truth will make us free. Right?

In contrast?

Religion will make us dumb about God.
Its what religion was designed to do.


grace and peace ......

Again, Salvation isnt conditioned upon anything a man does, thats salvation by works !

 

[Brightfame52]

I most certainly have not . What you're asserting is ridiculous.

Yes you have and are. Im asserting Salvation by Grace of God through the work of Christ.

 

[Brightfame52]

It is not false, the condition is "believe in Jesus". You're the one who wants to take believing (or not believing) out of the mix. Jesus died for all men. The sin barrier is removed for everyone not just a few. He is the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world. Jesus is the pivot upon which men are divided. Our response to Jesus (believing or unbelieving) reveals who and what we are for the Father has determined to save believers and in so doing, His justification is seen among men.

It is false, Salvation isnt conditioned on man believing in Jesus, but its conditioned on what Jesus did. By His One Obedience many shall be and are made righteous/Saved Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[GenemZ]

Again, Salvation isnt conditioned upon anything a man does, thats salvation by works !

Then God is being arbitrary in whom He saves.

It just might be? God supplies us with a sane reason for why He chooses someone for salvation.

Keep in mind. No one could believe unless God does the work needed to make the soul free to choose.
That work he tells us is "grace."

Now... you are *free* to either believe that? Or, not free if you reject it.

"The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; ​

it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so." Rom 8:7​

Only if God suppresses the flesh's dominance over the soul while a soul is presented the Gospel message?
That soul has been made free by grace to choose.

That "grace freedom" God gives does not guarantee that the soul will be positive to the Gospel.
It simply leaves that soul to be without excuse if it wants to reject Jesus.

If we are not made free by grace to reject Jesus? God would be unfair and unjust in condemning anyone who had no choice but to reject.

God is love and sanity.


grace and peace ......................

 

[Brightfame52]

Then God is being arbitrary in whom He saves.

It just might be? God supplies us with a sane reason for why He chooses someone for salvation.

Keep in mind. No one could believe unless God does the work needed to make the soul free to choose.
That work he tells us is "grace."

Now... you are *free* to either believe that? Or, not free if you reject it.

"The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; ​

it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so." Rom 8:7​

Only if God suppresses the flesh's dominance over the soul while a soul is presented the Gospel message?
That soul has been made free by grace to choose.

That "grace freedom" God gives does not guarantee that the soul will be positive to the Gospel.
It simply leaves that soul to be without excuse if it wants to reject Jesus.

If we are not made free by grace to reject Jesus? God would be unfair and unjust in condemning anyone who had no choice but to reject.

God is love and sanity.


grace and peace ......................

You and your works salvation

 

[GenemZ]

You and your works salvation

You are working really hard not to understand what "works" meant at the time the Bible was written.

Its become a work for you.