There is no Rapture

[oikonomia]

One fact from Scripture completely refutes the idea of a pre-rapture. That fact is that the Antichrist will defeat and execute Christians.

Firstly, I am not sure what you mean by "pre-rapture." But I think I can figure it out.

The fact that Antrichrist will defeat and execute Christians, which I believe, is not proof that there is no "pre-rapture."
It is evidence that some who were NOT raptured will pass through that period of Antichrist's reign.

The exhortation of Christ is that believers would petitions the Lord and be counted worthy to escape the things which are about to come to pass and stand before the Son of Man.

"But be watchful, at every time beseeching, that you may prevail to escape all theses things which are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." (Luke 21:36)

So your "pre-rapture" is the response of obedience to the command of the Lord.
And to be watchful, prevailing, and petitioning to escape the coming great tribulation is the desire of Christ.
It originates with Christ before is comes into the hearts of Christians.

Secondly, since it is an exhortation to be heeded and obeyed its is realism that SOME will heed and SOME will not.
Therefore some believers will prevail, beseech, and deemed worthy to escape and some will not and will not escape.

The fact does not effect their eternal redemption. But it does effect their time of be taken up off the earth by the Lord.

This fact is stated several times in the Book of Daniel and Revelation (Daniel 7:21, Revelation 13:7, Revelation 20:4). If Christians are persecuted and killed during the reign of the Antichrist, then there can be no pre-rapture. That would otherwise be a clear contradiction.

Excuse me for being repetitive. But it bears repeating.
Whatever passage you offer showing Christians suffer during the reign of Antichrist is not proof that no Christians were take from the earth.
It is evidence that apparently ALL will not be.

Why else is the exhortation to be watchful? If "pre-rapture" were so automatitc then what need would there be to "be watchful, at every time beseeching, that you may prevail to escape all these things."

The natural man would reason

"Jesus, we 've got Your hands tied. However I live as a Christian I am garuanteed to escape the great tribulstion. If I am watchful I will be raptured. And if I am not watchful, yet still love my old style of life and the world, well, I will STILL be raptured because I am a believer. And what the church experiences must ALWAYS be the WHOLE church together."

So the teaching on raptures is just about always in the tone if a warning to be vigilant, ready, attentive, not sloppy, not taaking things for granted. The teaching on rapture is in a tone if bebg wise rahther that pesumptiously foolish,

When the Lord says for us to "Remember Lot's wife." (Luke 17:32) the warning is like this:
"It is not a matter of simply your body not being in a place of danger, but your HEART being removed as well."

"Remember Lot's wife" "Sure, physically she was removed from Sodom. But the longing backward glance exposed her.
She was still back there in her heart - with the Sodomites, in Sodom, where her flesh was happy. Her backward glance caused her to become a monument of shame. Instantly, she turned into a pillar of salt, a monument of shame, failure, and defeat."

So the healthy Christian teaching is not:
"Forget about Lot's wife" or
"Don't WORRY about Lot's wife" it is
"Remember . . . Lot's wife."

Do not just think about your BODY being swooped away to safety.
Watch and prevail that your HEART, your inclination, your memory, your motive, your imagination are removed from the place of
judgment by walking daily with the Lord Jesus, prevailing in the Holy Spirit.

Jesus will only return once and that is at the end of the reign of the Antichrist.

Compare this with the assupmtion that the Messiah will come one once and get the Romans off the backs of Jerusalem Jews and immediately establish the Davidic kingdom of Israel as before.

Ask yourself. "Is it still the same God?"
Ask yourself. "Has human nature changed?"

Yes, He comes to end the age and defeat Antichrist. Amen to this. Yes, indeed He does.
But prophecy is always a TEST to the hearts of His people.
How will be react to what we know?
The things we are not told specifcally, will be a test to our hearts.

He tests the hearts of men.

"Examine me, O Jehovah, and try me; Test my inward parts and my heart." (Psalm 26:2)

“I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways,
According to the results of his deeds."
(Jeremiah 17:10)

I don't know of any church father who believed in a pre-rapture, nor do I know anyone who believed in dispensationalism.

You know the dear Lord Jesus Himself.
You know the Apostle Paul.
You know the writer of the book of Hebrews (Paul(?))
And Paul distinguished between dispensations of some sort, as did the Apostle John.

Jesus - "Go therefore and disciple all the nations, . . . And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age." (See Matt.28:18-20)

Don't you see epochs of time in which God has a specific setction of His economy and plan to work out?

Peter - "Jesus . . . Whom heaven must receive until the times of the restoration of all things, of which God spokethrogh the mouths of His hily porphets from of old." (Acts 3:21)

John - "For the law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17)

Paul - "But death reigned from Adam until Moses, . . . " (Rom. 5:14a)

The author of Hebrews - "So Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time
to those who eargerly await Him, apart from sin, unto salvation." (Heb. 9:28)

John - " . . . and they lived and reign with Christ for a thousand years." (Rev. 20:2)
"And when the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison . . . " (Rev. 20:7)

Don't you see some ground (if not abused or taken too far) for seeing epochs or periods of God's program in something like sections?
Can you forgive the perhaps imperfect word "dispensations" and get the valid point?

I can.

 

[Timtofly]

If this is true then how come the New Testament says that David has not ascended into the heavens? (Acts 2:34)
David was an Old Testament believer. He did die but it says he did not ascend into the heavens.

"For David did not ascend into the heavens, but himself says, The Lord says to my Lord, Sit at My right hand," (Acts 2:34)

God has a purpose to save not only the immaterial portion of man, but the entire "spirit and soul and body" be preserved complete. (1 Thess. 5:23)

A saved soul without a redeemed body is not a complete salvation.
And such a one is conesided unclothed who still needs to be clothed with the glorified body to appear in God's
full presence in the normal way.

God is not pleased that disembodied spirits whom He created to have bodies "go to heaven" to be with Him forever.
This also makes God more a God of death than a God of life.
The traditional thought that you must DIE in order to go to be with God makes God too much a God of death rather than a God of resurrection and life eternal.

God more places than heaven and the surface of the earth.
And those whose full salvation is still wanting, He can preserve in peace and in a good place UNTIL they are full clothed so
as not to appear before Him "naked" or "unclothed."

David had to wait in Abraham's bosom until the Cross like every other redeemed OT believer. They all ascended on Sunday morning when Jesus presented the OT redeemed to God in Paradise. They were the firstfruits of the Resurrection and the Life. They had permanent incorruptible physical bodies when they were resurrected the day of the Cross. But they waited until Sunday morning to ascend to Paradise.

Only Mary saw Jesus before He ascended that day. No one else saw Jesus, nor saw Him ascend with the OT redeemed. Why does everyone claim all the disciples knew about this ascension? They had all gone home. Thomas did not see Jesus until days later. Peter, James, and John had gone back to fishing. Pentecost was still 40 days away. Why do people leave out all these facts?

All since the Cross have not been left naked without a body. They all have permanent incorruptible physical bodies in Paradise. No one who is redeemed, since the Cross, has tasted death, and had to wait as a soul without a body, like those in the OT in Abraham's bosom.

 

[Zao is life]

One fact from Scripture completely refutes the idea of a pre-rapture. That fact is that the Antichrist will defeat and execute Christians. This fact is stated several times in the Book of Daniel and Revelation (Daniel 7:21, Revelation 13:7, Revelation 20:4). If Christians are persecuted and killed during the reign of the Antichrist, then there can be no pre-rapture. That would otherwise be a clear contradiction.

Jesus will only return once and that is at the end of the reign of the Antichrist.

I don't know of any church father who believed in a pre-rapture, nor do I know anyone who believed in dispensationalism.

Here are ALL New Testament references to tribulation experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.
2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

There are no other New Testament mentions of tribulation as the experience of those who are not Christians.

But, ..

Persecution Of Jesus: John 5:16

Of Christians:

Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11

Of the woman who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13

Tribulation of apostles or Christians:

Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9, 21 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:19, 24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14

Great Tribulation:

Mentioned only three times in the New Testament, and each time it's the experience of Christians:

Revelation 2:22; Revelation 7:14; 'Olivet Discourse': Matthew 24:21 *

* Luke uses the words great distress and wrath in Luke 21:23 to describe what was to come upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem (not the word tribulation).

Pre-trib rapture theology has tribulation confused with wrath.

God's people were suffering tribulation under the hand of Pharaoh and were in Egypt while the plagues were coming upon Egypt. The day they crossed the Red Sea and escaped the house of bondage was the same day Pharaoh's armies were destroyed (and Pharaoh obviously judged in the process, though it does not say that).

The faithful who refused to worship the image of the (Babylonian) king were thrown into a burning, fiery furnace, but One like the Son of the gods (of the gods in Nebuchadnezzar's mind) was with them in the furnace, and they were unharmed. Then Nebuchadnezzar told them to come out and come here.

The antitype of Pharaoh is the beast of the Revelation. The antitype of the burning, fiery furnace is the great tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast and it's not the Antichrist calling them out of it - it's God in the resurrection when they hear a voice from heaven say "Come up here" and see the two witnesses and all the saints who fell asleep in Christ rising from the dead and ascending, and those who are still alive being caught up afterwards to meet the Lord in the air.

The Bible is full of types and antitypes, if only people didn't have to force scripture to comply with a particular eschatological model.

 

[oikonomia]

David had to wait in Abraham's bosom until the Cross like every other redeemed OT believer. They all ascended on Sunday morning when Jesus presented the OT redeemed to God in Paradise. They were the firstfruits of the Resurrection and the Life. They had permanent incorruptible physical bodies when they were resurrected the day of the Cross. But they waited until Sunday morning to ascend to Paradise.

This is some speculation which is by no means so definite that we know.
1.) Are we told they had incorruptible glorifed bodies ?
No. Some assume so because Paul speaks of the matter concerning the church.
2.) Are we told definitely they all ascended to heaven on the Lord's Day?
No. Some assume so. The Word is silent.
3.) Are we told "the firstfruits" in 1 Cor. 15:23 has to mean people raised and ascended on Sunday with Jesus?
That depends on how editors of English translations place the simicolon or a comma.

But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him. Berean Standard
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. King James
But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christ’s [own will be resurrected with incorruptible, immortal bodies] at His coming. Amplified
But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; afterward, at His coming, those who belong to Christ. Holman Standard
But every one in his own order: the firstfruits Christ, then they that are of Christ, who have believed in his coming. Douay-Rheim

Though I cannot see one at the moment, there may be some renderings which interpret Christ and the firstfruits to be Christ and those supposedly raised with Him on that "Sunday."
Provide me with a sample if you know of one.

Only Mary saw Jesus before He ascended that day.

Okay. He came back in the evening and the disciples saw Him in the closed and locked room in John 20.
That is what I believe.
This says nothing about others ascending with Him, that day or some weeks latter when He ascended publically in Acts chapter one.

No one else saw Jesus, nor saw Him ascend with the OT redeemed. Why does everyone claim all the disciples knew about this ascension?

I am not sure what everyone's position is.
My point is that we are not told really ENOUGH to know what in the world happened to those who reportedly were seen in Jerusalem who came out of the tombs. (Matt. 27:52,53)
Do you think we are told enough? I never thought so. I could change my mind if persuaded.

Then some have pointed to Ephesians 4:8,9.
But Paul and his co-workers were also said to be being led in a triumphal procession, defeated, by Christ in Second Corinthians 2:14.
I don't think he was referring to ascension to the third heavens in the way of Christ's ascending in Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9; or John 20:17 for that matter.

They had all gone home. Thomas did not see Jesus until days later. Peter, James, and John had gone back to fishing. Pentecost was still 40 days away. Why do people leave out all these facts?

All since the Cross have not been left naked without a body. They all have permanent incorruptible physical bodies in Paradise. No one who is redeemed, since the Cross, has tasted death, and had to wait as a soul without a body, like those in the OT in Abraham's bosom.

This latter concept cannot be the case. It would not agree with Paul telling us that if they died before transfiguration though they would be more "with the Lord" in a relative sense, they would be unclothed. This would mean New Testament believers in the church age. Am I right?

Besides, redemption may be instantaneous in terms of our regeneration of the spirit.
And transfiguration may be in the twinkling of an eye.
But in between is the transformation of the soul which takes time and culminates in this life bursting out into our bodies.
Or bursting out into our bodies as also it swallows us up from without.

In other words - it is a process of God's life spreading from the kernel of our being outward into the circumference.
A spreading out from within the neucleus our being to the outermost perimeter.
It is foolish to imagine all stages of this process happen in the snap of a finger merely because we are forgiven and redeemed.

"And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess. 5:23)

You see? He is migrating from the kernel of our being out. He is permeating from the center out by process of sanctification.
Transformation into His image is from one degree to another degree to another as a "metobolic" process (2 Cor. 3:17,18)

 

[Trivalee]

Some angels look like us and some don't. Jesus is talking about the body we have in Heaven will be different from the body we have here on the earth. We do not have children there, but there will be plenty of children in Heaven for us to teach and raise in the admonition of the Lord

Jesus was referring to the spiritual quality of angels and informed his listeners that we will possess the same qualities in the regeneration. No scripture supports the fallacy that anyone (young or old) will need to be taught because 1 Cor 13:9-10 shows that when Christ returns, we shall know all things hidden from us in this earthly dispensation.

 

[DavidPT]

Jesus was referring to the spiritual quality of angels and informed his listeners that we will possess the same qualities in the regeneration. No scripture supports the fallacy that anyone (young or old) will need to be taught because 1 Cor 13:9-10 shows that when Christ returns, we shall know all things hidden from us in this earthly dispensation.

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


This might support your argument though some interpreters insist this has already been fulfilled.


What I would argue, the fact everyone has to give an account of their lives after Christ has returned, which means whatever a person did good or bad, this is still being remembered, the fact one has to give an account of those things, as to how one can then insist this verse has already been fulfilled?

Why would God first remember their sin no more, meaning in this age before the 2nd coming, then in the next age post the 2nd coming do this? For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad(2 Corinthians 5:10). Obviously, anything pertaining to bad would have to involve sin.

 

[sparow]

To be absent from the Body is to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

You seem to think to be present with Jesus one needs to be where one can not go, Heaven. Jesus said He would be with us always and if any two or more of us meet as a Holy convocation (includes the Sabbath), He would be there; as there are many such meeting Jesus would be in many places at the same time, including heaven.

Paul does not disagree with this, you ad to Paul.

 

[sparow]

There are 12 different scriptures that use the word rapture. But there are variations in the spelling, so they do not all mean exactly the same thing. For example 2 corinthians 12:2 "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows".

I am pretty sure he was not dead at the time. Although some people do believe he was dead. He had been stoned and they considered him to be dead.

Acts 14 "19b They stoned Paul and dragged him outside the city, presuming he was dead. 20 But after the disciples had gathered around him, he got up and went back into the city. And the next day he left with Barnabas for Derbe.

There may be 12 translations of scripture that use the word "rapture"; I have 5 different translation of the Bible and none use the word rapture.

I won't dispute that Paul was caught up, and if you choose to the Latin word instead of the English phase, and link yourself to false doctrine, you are free to do so. But the third heaven comes from Babylonian Astrology, is mentioned in one of the Talmuds; That planet (I don't recall the name of), but recently deemed to small to be a planet, which orbits at an incline to the other plants,crosses the path of one of the other planets, is one of the heavenly bodies that circumscribes the boundary of the third heaven.

I do not read anything into Acts 14:19,20, other than what is stated there.

 

[Diamond72]

I won't dispute that Paul was caught up

Paul was said to have been "caught up" or "taken up" into the third heaven, where he saw and heard things that were not meant for human ears or eyes. You can do with that what you want. There is no reason for me to speculate on what he was talking about to give you the opportunity to accuse people of false teaching.

 

[sparow]

Paul was said to have been "caught up" or "taken up" into the third heaven, where he saw and heard things that were not meant for human ears or eyes. You can do with that what you want. There is no reason for me to speculate on what he was talking about to give you the opportunity to accuse people of false teaching.

Normally a person teaching falsely will have been taught falsely and there is a penalty for leading others astray; speculation could serve as a starting point in a process of overcoming, which is required, the apostles do need to be tested, as is mentioned in the messages to the seven churches in Revelation.

 

[Diamond72]

Paul does not disagree with this, you ad to Paul.

Do you know Paul? Have you ever personally talked to him? I quoted Paul and now you want to accuse me. As a general rule, I quit answering questions from people who accuse or threaten me. You should know that people are guilty of what they accuse others of and they only condemn themselves.

 

[Diamond72]

Jesus was referring to the spiritual quality of angels

I had a dream about my daughter in Heaven and I saw the two angels assigned to take care of her. I even talked to one of them. They were both sitting so height may be an issue.

 

[ozso]

I really don't understand this doctrine. Nobody ever said anything directly about it, among the apostles and church fathers.

Then in 1820 in Glasgow, a teenager named Margaret MacDonald had a vision of the rapture during a tent revival. And a preacher named John Nelson Darby was there. He believed it and started teaching it. It probably wouldn't have gotten very far with Darby, but Darby crossed paths with Dwight L. Moody, who was like the Billy Graham of his day. So once Moody started touting it, it spread quickly.

 

[sparow]

Do you know Paul? Have you ever personally talked to him? I quoted Paul and now you want to accuse me. As a general rule, I quit answering questions from people who accuse or threaten me. You should know that people are guilty of what they accuse others of and they only condemn themselves.

I don't know Paul nor do I know his epistles; I did read the verses you quoted, and the surrounding verses.

 

[ozso]

I don't know Paul nor do I know his epistles

Why not? Have you never read the Bible?

 

[Diamond72]

So once Moody started touting it, it spread quickly.

Billy Graham had the most influence. Esp with being: "saved" & "born again". Moody had a lot of influence on the pastors with two year associate degrees.

 

[sparow]

Why not? Have you never read the Bible?

I suppose it is like when Jesus said, “never new you”, in Matt 7:23.

 

[ozso]

I suppose it is like when Jesus said, “never new you”, in Matt 7:23.

Is that what you expect Jesus to say to Paul?

 

[Trivalee]

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


This might support your argument though some interpreters insist this has already been fulfilled.


What I would argue, the fact everyone has to give an account of their lives after Christ has returned, which means whatever a person did good or bad, this is still being remembered, the fact one has to give an account of those things, as to how one can then insist this verse has already been fulfilled?

Why would God first remember their sin no more, meaning in this age before the 2nd coming, then in the next age post the 2nd coming do this? For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad(2 Corinthians 5:10). Obviously, anything pertaining to bad would have to involve sin.

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that everyone may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. This passage is very interesting and often misunderstood. Some believers erroneously believe it is talking about what they did in their flesh, but the 'body' in reference is the church - the body of Christ. It corroborates with 1 Peter 4:17 - it is not a judgment of unbelievers but how those in the church utilized their gift and talent to advance the kingdom.

In Matt 13:23 & John 15: 5 and 8, Jesus emphasized the need for believers to bear fruit. For clarity, it is important to understand what it is to bear fruit and this encompasses every 'work' done in the body of Christ. Evangelism, Praise and worship, helping the poor and so on are works and part of work done in the body. Works do not lead to salvation because salvation is free (Eph 2:8-9), but works determine whether we receive a reward or not according to 1 Cor 3:14 & Rev 22:12.

2 Cor 5:10 is not meant for bad Christians who are not saved, e.g. the vessels of wood and earth in 2 Tim 2:20 because they are in sin, but how the faithful contributed to the advancement of the kingdom.

 

[LW97Nils]

I haven't looked at that. On the other hand... Christ will return with his saints from what I've read.

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Revelation 19:11-14

Of course, those armies could be the angels also. But on the other hand... won't we be like angels in heaven?

For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. Mark 12:25