Is believing/faith a work ?

[bbbbbbb]

The secret things belong to the Lord.

Clever reply. It reminds me of the seven mysteries of the Rosary.

 

[Brightfame52]

if "faith" was a work,
faith wouldn't be dead without works,"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I Fell away for over almost 7yrs, faith by itself is dead.
Prayer is a work.

Faith/believing is a work, and if one conditions their salvation on it, then they have denied grace salvation.

 

[Brightfame52]

Clever reply. It reminds me of the seven mysteries of the Rosary.

Okay, Just remember this, if one conditions their salvation on any action of theirs, they promote salvation by works.

 

[sawdust]

Gods will saved His People before they became believers.

Are you saying God willed certain people to be believers and not others?

 

[MikeMu777]

The secret things belong to the Lord.

? Are you disagreeing with my claim of Paul referring to 'works of the (Mosaic) law'?
If I were to challenge it, I think I'd go to Rom 4:12-16. A question that then arises is what is the nature of the faith by which Abraham was saved.
In any case we're still talking within a 'Jewish' context. A big issue for Paul's gentile converts was whether or not they were to be bound by the Jew's law,

 

[Bobber]

Okay, Just remember this, if one conditions their salvation on any action of theirs, they promote salvation by works.

God is promoting that he has provided the way of salvation but that men MUST now act, THEY must do it. You'll find the action THEY must take in Rm 10:9,10.

Now you've asked people to remember something. You better remember this when you say men don't have to do what the verse above states you're hindering people from actually embracing the grace of God.

 

[Bobber]

? Are you disagreeing with my claim of Paul referring to 'works of the (Mosaic) law'?
If I were to challenge it, I think I'd go to Rom 4:12-16. A question that then arises is what is the nature of the faith by which Abraham was saved.
In any case we're still talking within a 'Jewish' context. A big issue for Paul's gentile converts was whether or not they were to be bound by the Jew's law,

And it's crystal clear that is correct. Sadly some however will never cease to twist the scripturas and demand their own religious tradition be viewed upon as truth.

 

[Bobber]

Are you saying God willed certain people to be believers and not others?

That unfortunately is the Calvinists way of thinking. It's incorrect but that's what they go with.

 

[Brightfame52]

Are you saying God willed certain people to be believers and not others?

Yes, you didnt know that ? They are called His Elect !

 

[Brightfame52]

? Are you disagreeing with my claim of Paul referring to 'works of the (Mosaic) law'?
If I were to challenge it, I think I'd go to Rom 4:12-16. A question that then arises is what is the nature of the faith by which Abraham was saved.
In any case we're still talking within a 'Jewish' context. A big issue for Paul's gentile converts was whether or not they were to be bound by the Jew's law,

Paul is referring to works in general which includes the Law. The word work ergon:

1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied
   1. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

 

[Brightfame52]

God is promoting that he has provided the way of salvation but that men MUST now act, THEY must do it. You'll find the action THEY must take in Rm 10:9,10.

Now you've asked people to remember something. You better remember this when you say men don't have to do what the verse above states you're hindering people from actually embracing the grace of God.

You promoting Salvation by works, by the act of man !

 

[bbbbbbb]

Okay, Just remember this, if one conditions their salvation on any action of theirs, they promote salvation by works.

Well, that must mean the vast majority of mankind will be saved because the vast majority don't have the slightest inkling about Christian salvation. Therefore, they are definitely not conditioning their salvation on any action of theirs.

 

[Clare73]

if "faith" was a work,
faith wouldn't be dead without works,"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I Fell away for over almost 7yrs, faith by itself is dead.
Prayer is a work.

Keeping in mind that works don't make true faith, they manifest true faith.
Only the Holy Spirit makes true faith.

 

[Clare73]

Okay, Just remember this, if one conditions their salvation on any action of theirs, they promote salvation by works.

And also remember this, in the NT "works" refers to law keeping, to physical performance, not to dispositions; e.g., faith, trust, hope, joy, sorrow, hatred, etc.
We don't get to change that with ignorance of the NT.

 

[Clare73]

? Are you disagreeing with my claim of Paul referring to 'works of the (Mosaic) law'?
If I were to challenge it, I think I'd go to Rom 4:12-16. A question that then arises is what is the nature of the faith by which Abraham was saved.

Which question is answered in Ro 4:1-5.

In any case we're still talking within a 'Jewish' context. A big issue for Paul's gentile converts was whether or not they were to be bound by the Jew's law,

 

[Clare73]

Paul is referring to works in general which includes the Law. The word work ergon:

1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied
   1. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

As previously explained (post #448):

The NT use of a word is determined by its context.
The context of "works" in regard to salvation/justification in the NT is law-keeping, particularly circumcision.
"Works" is never used in the NT simply of a disposition; such as, trust, belief/faith, hope, joy, fear, unbelief, hatred, etc.
It is always used of physical performance.

So therefore believing is a work. And as I stated, if you condition your salvation on your action of believing, you have fallen from grace.

And as the NT shows, you do not understand basic Christian doctrine in the NT usage of works in relation to salvation/justification.

You absurdly set Eph 2:8-9 against itself, where salvation is both 1) by faith and 2) not by works, and where you maintain that
what is excluded (works) is also what is required (faith, which you say is an excluded work).

And you don't even see the absurdity.

 

[MikeMu777]

Paul is referring to works in general which includes the Law. The word work ergon:

1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied
   1. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Your point escapes me. Sorry. I will say this, though: Words, including those in Greek NT always mean what the mean in context and consideration of related texts. Generally, good Greek lexicons will try to capture a full range possible various meanings, but there's no guarantee. That aside, however, I'm simply unsure what you are trying to conclude from your set of definitions.

 

[sawdust]

Yes, you didnt know that ? They are called His Elect !

I see. Well, if that's what you want to believe ... oh wait .. you don't want to believe that, you have no choice in what you believe. Sorry mate, I forgot for a moment there.

 

[Brightfame52]

And also remember this, in the NT "works" refers to law keeping, to physical performance, not to dispositions; e.g., faith, trust, hope, joy, sorrow, hatred, etc.
We don't get to change that with ignorance of the NT.

Works refers to any and all conditions.

 

[Brightfame52]

As previously explained (post #448):

The NT use of a word is determined by its context.
The context of "works" in regard to salvation/justification in the NT is law-keeping, particularly circumcision.
"Works" is never used in the NT simply of a disposition; such as, trust, belief/faith, hope, joy, fear, unbelief, hatred, etc.
It is always used of physical performance.


And as the NT shows, you do not understand basic Christian doctrine in the NT usage of works in relation to salvation/justification.

You absurdly set Eph 2:8-9 against itself, where salvation is both 1) by faith and 2) not by works, and where you maintain that
what is excluded (works) is also what is required (faith, which you say is an excluded work).

And you don't even see the absurdity.

Believing is a work according to the inspired word ergon !