The latter Days: The type of the latter days

[5thKingdom]

I still have to wonder why Amils apparently find things like this uninteresting though, thus not relevant? Never really see them discussing passages such as these very often, if at all. I guess because it contradicts their view if any of these events are involving post the 2nd coming.

Because those verses DO NOT teach of a 1000 year reign after the Great Commission.
Because that foolish notion CONTRADICTS a host of passages related to the Third Beast and Fourth Beast.


See the PROBLEM people have in trying to understand Daniel's Beasts and the chronology of the History of Man
is they cannot DEFINE what each "Beast" represents... it is NOT Babylon/Persia/Greece/Rome...
Daniel 12:8-10 and Daniel 7:1-12 PROVE that fact.


However... when you find the TRUTH about Daniel's Beasts... it all suddenly makes sense:
And it is reflected in actual HISTORY (reality)... how cool is that?


(1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom
(2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
(3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13, in 7 verses]
(4th) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
(5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven" [many verses]


JESUS specifically NAMED 3 of the 4 "Beasts" as being a "Kingdom of Heaven"...
WHY in the world would anyone REJECT what Jesus specifically NAMED?


/

 

[DavidPT]

A-Millennial mean NO Millennial...

Why would you think I don't already know that by now? I have been knowing about Amil, thus discussing and debating with Amils at least since 2009 give or take a year or two, assuming I recall correctly. There were a cpl of times I was almost convinced of Amil and ready to switch positions. But I ended up talking myself out of it before it came to that. Surely then, you would think by now I fully grasp that Amils don't believe in a literal thousand year kingdom. Well guess what? Neither do I. The kingdom is everlasting, not 1000 years in length instead. Therefore, a literal thousand year kingdom is nonsensical.

And I fully realize that Amils don't take the thousand years in a literal sense to begin with. After all, how could it be a literal thousand years to Amils if it's been going on 2000 years now, meaning when Amils allege the thousand years began? Which is why I have pointed out, if the thousand years are literal though, there goes Amil out the window altogether. Which then means Amils need to prove the thousand years are not literal by proving via other cardinal numbers followed by years in both testaments, that in some cases the amount specified is not to be taken in the literal sense. Not one single Amil has done that yet.

I just realized something. The thread we are discussing/debating this in, is this even relevant to the topic in the OP? We have plenty of other threads we can take this to. You have started at least a half a dozen or so yourself. Maybe we should take these things up in one of those threads instead?

 

[Wayne Gabler]

There were a cpl of times I was almost convinced of Amil and ready to switch positions.

Since I tend to ignore the labels and go for the Scripture, you might be able to say what group this doctrine come from.
De:4:30:
When thou art in tribulation,
and all these things are come upon thee,
even in the latter days,
if thou turn to the LORD thy God,
and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
Life as usual-
7 trumps start sounding, two witnesses protect Jerusalem from fallen angels from until the day they die. 4 days later Jesus shows up, resurrects the two and kills all sinners. To finish off that same day, He resurrects everybody Re:20:4 references. They all eat from the tree of life, . . 1,000 years later they are as wise as the 24 Elders, who are men who have been in the Re:4 temple for about 2,000 years. Satan and the fallen angels are all assembled in the skies above the people, who just happen to be at the 1,000th feast of the tabernacle. (Re:4 throne in the Temple) in a place that is called 'camp of the saints'.
The fire that sends sinful immortals also tests the people assembled there, as that is when any person looks on His face and doesn't 'melt'. Those people are then 'raptured' (immortal and wide awake):

Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
Heb:12:22-23:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

They enter the mansion known as 'New Jerusalem', no need to eat as they did that in the Eze:47 setting within 30 days of being resurrected on the day the two witnesses are. They never leave that city as they sit in front of God as He teaches them all angels were taught from the day they became the 1st creation on day1 of creation. Their one 'distraction' is all the people that enter the city and need to eat from that tree. As soon as everybody is in the city, it comes to an earth that is a polished ball of glass thanks to the fire God used.
The last to enter and are given in marriage, and then each couple is taken to a different star. They come to the City for a variety of reasons over eternity. The 100 children show up on the day they turn 120. After that the can travel in the empty parts of space as well as interact with the material.

The people in the city have one task, they are more than a little willing because that little time they were in Mount Sion showed them what the angels perfected heaven looks like, which is 'better' than being in the city only.
When the rest of earth is full of people coming to the city that is when the people ascents (rapture verse for the 2nd time) ascent back to Mount Sion where they are given in marriage, have a perfected child and then speak something like Ge:1 into existence as an inheritance.

Should I go with Futurist or Literalist or Futureist/Literalist?
Somebody once said there were about 7 on the whole planet. I think that number is actually on the high side of reality, JMHO.

 

[5thKingdom]

And I fully realize that Amils don't take the thousand years in a literal sense to begin with. After all, how could it be a literal thousand years to Amils if it's been going on 2000 years now,

But you lack context.
The Saints taught an A-Millennial Kingdom from the first century.
That is what the Apostles taught.

Which then means Amils need to prove the thousand years are not literal by proving via other cardinal numbers followed by years in both testaments,

LOL,
That is NOT the criteria for finding Biblical Truth.
Biblical Truth is ONLY found through the harmony of all related Scriptures.
That is WHY the Saints taught the A-Millennial Kingdom FROM THE START.


The Church has always understood the Great Commission of the Christian Kingdom
is immediately followed by Saints going through a Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
... which is also shown as the Revelation Beast.


The Church has always understood Satan was "bound" at the Cross.
And when he is "loosened" for his "Little Season" as the Revelation Beast arises
and the Anti-Christ RULES over the Great Tribulation.


What the Church did NOT understand (because the Truth remained "closed-up" and "sealed",
was that Daniel's Four Beast represented (1) the Pre-Flood Kingdom and (2) the Jewish Kingdom
and (3) the Christian Kingdom and (4) the Great Tribulation was a SEPARATE AND DISTINCT BEAST.


Dan 7:7
After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a Fourth Beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly;
and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it:
and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

I just realized something. The thread we are discussing/debating this in, is this even relevant to the topic in the OP? We have plenty of other threads we can take this to. You have started at least a half a dozen or so yourself. Maybe we should take these things up in one of those threads instead?

What difference does it make?

/

 

[Zao is life]

Because those verses DO NOT teach of a 1000 year reign after the Great Commission.
Because that foolish notion CONTRADICTS a host of passages related to the Third Beast and Fourth Beast.


See the PROBLEM people have in trying to understand Daniel's Beasts and the chronology of the History of Man
is they cannot DEFINE what each "Beast" represents... it is NOT Babylon/Persia/Greece/Rome...
Daniel 12:8-10 and Daniel 7:1-12 PROVE that fact.


However... when you find the TRUTH about Daniel's Beasts... it all suddenly makes sense:
And it is reflected in actual HISTORY (reality)... how cool is that?


(1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom
(2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
(3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13, in 7 verses]
(4th) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
(5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven" [many verses]


JESUS specifically NAMED 3 of the 4 "Beasts" as being a "Kingdom of Heaven"...
WHY in the world would anyone REJECT what Jesus specifically NAMED?


/

I don't think you realize that the verses you reference in support of your beliefs regarding 'the four kingdoms of heaven' do not support what you say - not in any way, shape or form.

Antiochus IV was the 4th beast of Daniel - his rule and his kingdom is what we can expect when all nations, tribes and tongues come under the rule of 'The Antichrist'. The one is the image of the other.

And this is why Daniel's 4th beast is spoken of as though it gets destroyed by Christ and the kingdom given to the saints of the Most High (Daniel Chapter 7), and that's why Daniel Chapter 12 mentions the resurrection from the dead (which we all know will occur at the same time as the beast is destroyed and the kingdom is given to the saints of the Most High).

The idol that Antiochus IV placed in the temple is the shadow of the man of sin seating himself up in the New Testament temple, and the 3.5 years, the 2,300 and 1,290 days is the shadow of the 3.5 years still to come.

But both will have occurred by the time the return of Christ has already happened and the NHNE has become a reality - up till now, only the shadow (the type) has already occurred - and already occurred it (the shadow/type) indeed has.

The Revelation and 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 are pointing to the mirror image of (a) the Antichrist and his final kingdom; and (b) the final 3.5 years of this Age; and ( c ) the AoD of the Antichrist, and that mirror is a stained glass mirror - the image being Daniel's fourth beast/kingdom, who was Antiochus IV.

Also, the thousand years cannot possibly commence before the thousand years commences, and the scriptures regarding the beheading of those who refused to worship the beast (or receive his mark/number of his name) cannot commence before the thousand years which follows their resurrection after they were beheaded (there are no 'back-to-the-future' time machines in either God's creation or man's creations).

 

[5thKingdom]

I don't think you realize that the verses you reference in support of your beliefs regarding 'the four kingdoms of heaven' do not support what you say - not in any way, shape or form.

If you are going to be so bold as to accuse me of not supporting doctrine with Scripture
then please be so kind as to LIST the doctrines not supported by Scripture.

(1) The Bible is very clear there are FOUR "Kingdoms/Beasts" that arise on earth


Dan 7:23
Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth,
which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Antiochus IV was the 4th beast of Daniel

That is impossible for two reasons:


(1) The Bible PROMISES the Truth about Daniel's Beasts remains "closed-up" and "sealed" to all the Saints
until the Last Saints "shall understand" at the "Time-of-the-End". Therefore the theory that Antiochus as the 4th Beast
MUST BE WRONG because it was developed in a time when the TRUTH remained "sealed" to all men. [Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10]


This alone DESTROYS your theory


(2) Daniel 7:11-12 is clear the FOURTH BEAST is "given to the Burning Flame" (aka "cast alive into the Lake of Fire"... Rev 19:20)...
do you seriously want to argue that was FULFILLED by Antiochus?

This also DESTROYS your theory

And this is why Daniel's 4th beast is spoken of as though it gets destroyed by Christ and the kingdom given to the saints of the Most High (Daniel Chapter 7),

What.. you said Antiochus was the FULFILLMENT of the Fourth Beast
Was he destroyed by Christ's Return?

and that's why Daniel Chapter 12 mentions the resurrection from the dead (which we all know will occur at the same time as the beast is destroyed and the kingdom is given to the saints of the Most High).

Yes, the resurrection is when the Lord "descends with a shout" an the Last Saints are "changed" without dying.
Of course NONE of this has anything to do with Antiochus.

The idol that Antiochus IV placed in the temple is the shadow of the man of sin seating himself up in the New Testament temple, and the 3.5 years, the 2,300 and 1,290 days is the shadow of the 3.5 years still to come.

Oh... so now you are saying Antiochus was a "shadow" of the Last Days "Man of Sin"...
well that is DIFFERENT than saying he fulfilled the Fourth Beast on earth.
Now I must wonder WHICH you believe.
You cannot have it both ways.

But both will have occurred by the time the return of Christ has already happened and the NHNE has become a reality - up till now, only the shadow (the type) has already occurred - and already occurred it (the shadow/type) indeed has.

So Antiochus was NOT the Fourth Beast
You seem very confused about this.

The Revelation and 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 are pointing to the mirror image of (a) the Antichrist and his final kingdom; and (b) the final 3.5 years of this Age;

I am sorry. You made a mistake.
The "Final Kingdom" is not 3.5 years.


The DURATION of the Fourth Beast is shown as 3.5 "times" and 3.5 "days" and 3.5 years (42 mo)
and 3.5 "watches of the night"


The DURATION of Daniel's "Abomination of Desolation" that is "placed" and "set-up" in the Fourth Kingdom
is 2300 literal days ("evenings/mornings")...


So, obviously 2300 days is much more than 3.5 years.
Your mistake is a common mistake.

Also, the thousand years cannot possibly commence before the thousand years commences,

The A-Millenial Kingdom (the 1000 years) represents the Great Commission of the Christian Kingdom
as the church spreads the Gospel and the Saints "lived and reigned with Christ"

and the scriptures regarding the beheading of those who refused to worship the beast (or receive his mark/number of his name) cannot commence before the thousand years which follows their resurrection after they were beheaded (there are no 'back-to-the-future' time machines in either God's creation or man's creations).

Again you are mistaken.


There are FOUR KINGDOMS that arise on earth
EACH Kingdom is a "Beast"... and EACH Beast has an "Image" and a "Mark"
these are NOT physical.


The Saints in Rev 20 are the Saints from the THIRD BEAST (while Satan is bound)
and NOT the Saints in the FOURTH BEAST (after Satan is loosened from the Pit [


You have CONFLATED the two Beasts.
You just ASSUMED the Saints in Rev 20 represent Saints in the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast (Daniel's Fourth Beast)
when they really represent Saints from the Christian Kingdom of the Great Commission (Daniel's Third Beast)
It is a common mistake.

/

 

[Zao is life]

If you are going to be so bold as to accuse me of not supporting doctrine with Scripture
then please be so kind as to LIST the doctrines not supported by Scripture.

(1) The Bible is very clear there are FOUR "Kingdoms/Beasts" that arise on earth


Dan 7:23
Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth,
which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.






That is impossible for two reasons:


(1) The Bible PROMISES the Truth about Daniel's Beasts remains "closed-up" and "sealed" to all the Saints
until the Last Saints "shall understand" at the "Time-of-the-End". Therefore the theory that Antiochus as the 4th Beast
MUST BE WRONG because it was developed in a time when the TRUTH remained "sealed" to all men. [Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10]


This alone DESTROYS your theory


(2) Daniel 7:11-12 is clear the FOURTH BEAST is "given to the Burning Flame" (aka "cast alive into the Lake of Fire"... Rev 19:20)...
do you seriously want to argue that was FULFILLED by Antiochus?

This also DESTROYS your theory





What.. you said Antiochus was the FULFILLMENT of the Fourth Beast
Was he destroyed by Christ's Return?





Yes, the resurrection is when the Lord "descends with a shout" an the Last Saints are "changed" without dying.
Of course NONE of this has anything to do with Antiochus.





Oh... so now you are saying Antiochus was a "shadow" of the Last Days "Man of Sin"...
well that is DIFFERENT than saying he fulfilled the Fourth Beast on earth.
Now I must wonder WHICH you believe.
You cannot have it both ways.





So Antiochus was NOT the Fourth Beast
You seem very confused about this.





I am sorry. You made a mistake.
The "Final Kingdom" is not 3.5 years.


The DURATION of the Fourth Beast is shown as 3.5 "times" and 3.5 "days" and 3.5 years (42 mo)
and 3.5 "watches of the night"


The DURATION of Daniel's "Abomination of Desolation" that is "placed" and "set-up" in the Fourth Kingdom
is 2300 literal days ("evenings/mornings")...


So, obviously 2300 days is much more than 3.5 years.
Your mistake is a common mistake.






The A-Millenial Kingdom (the 1000 years) represents the Great Commission of the Christian Kingdom
as the church spreads the Gospel and the Saints "lived and reigned with Christ"





Again you are mistaken.


There are FOUR KINGDOMS that arise on earth
EACH Kingdom is a "Beast"... and EACH Beast has an "Image" and a "Mark"
these are NOT physical.


The Saints in Rev 20 are the Saints from the THIRD BEAST (while Satan is bound)
and NOT the Saints in the FOURTH BEAST (after Satan is loosened from the Pit [


You have CONFLATED the two Beasts.
You just ASSUMED the Saints in Rev 20 represent Saints in the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast (Daniel's Fourth Beast)
when they really represent Saints from the Christian Kingdom of the Great Commission (Daniel's Third Beast)
It is a common mistake.

/

WHAT is Daniel's Abomination?

I know that this is the eschatology forum, but I'm not discussing eschatology - I'm discussing Scripture. OK... let's discuss Scripture. I am glad to have any discussion In Matt 24:15 Jesus is talking to his 12 disciples, and says "YOU". You have interpreted that "you" to mean "last...

www.christianforums.com

No point in correcting you about the same thing in two different threads "twice together" instead of "once upon a time"

 

[5thKingdom]

WHAT is Daniel's Abomination?

I know that this is the eschatology forum, but I'm not discussing eschatology - I'm discussing Scripture. OK... let's discuss Scripture. I am glad to have any discussion In Matt 24:15 Jesus is talking to his 12 disciples, and says "YOU". You have interpreted that "you" to mean "last...

www.christianforums.com

No point in correcting you about the same thing in two different threads "twice together" instead of "once upon a time"

You did not "correct" anything.
Why do you pretend otherwise?

Jim

 

[claninja]

Question: Why does Daniel Chapter 7 speak as though the latter days of the fourth kingdom is the latter-day kingdom that will be destroyed by Christ before the kingdom is handed over to the saints of the Most High?

I think this is a really interesting question.

The visions seen by Daniel mention 4 beasts that rise from the sea, with the last beast having 10 horns and a little horn, followed by the ancient of days opening the books and the courts convening, followed the fourth beast being slain and thrown in the fire, followed by the son of man coming on the clouds to receive a kingdom.

Daniel is then given the general explanation for all these visions: four kingdoms that arise on earth but the saints would possess the kingdom forever. No explanation for the slaying of the fourth beast is given in the simple explanation.

Daniel 7:16-18 So he told me the interpretation of these things: 17‘These four great beasts are four kings who will arise from the earth.18But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’

When Daniel presses further for the explanation on the fourth beast, there is still no explanation of the beast as a whole being destroyed, only the little horn. But when the little horn is destroyed, its dominion is taken away and the dominion and sovereignty of all kingdoms are given to the saints.

 

[Zao is life]

I think this is a really interesting question.

The visions seen by Daniel mention 4 beasts that rise from the sea, with the last beast having 10 horns and a little horn, followed by the ancient of days opening the books and the courts convening, followed the fourth beast being slain and thrown in the fire, followed by the son of man coming on the clouds to receive a kingdom.

Daniel is then given the general explanation for all these visions: four kingdoms that arise on earth but the saints would possess the kingdom forever. No explanation for the slaying of the fourth beast is given in the simple explanation.

Daniel 7:16-18 So he told me the interpretation of these things: 17‘These four great beasts are four kings who will arise from the earth.18But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’

When Daniel presses further for the explanation on the fourth beast, there is still no explanation of the beast as a whole being destroyed, only the little horn. But when the little horn is destroyed, its dominion is taken away and the dominion and sovereignty of all kingdoms are given to the saints.

Thanks for that, but what you say above is simply a summary of what is in the text.

You haven't offered your view though as to the identity of the 4th beast/kingdom.

Maybe it's still on its way in another post from you and I'm just too hasty with this post ..

 

[claninja]

Thanks for that, but what you say above is simply a summary of what is in the text.

You haven't offered your view though as to the identity of the 4th beast/kingdom.

Maybe it's still on its way in another post from you and I'm just too hasty with this post ..

I guess my point wasn’t to demonstrate what I believe the identity of the fourth beast is, but to draw attention the fact that while the VISION shows the fourth beast as a whole being slain the EXPLANATION only shows the little horn being slain.

As far as the fourth beast’s identity, I do believe it refers to gentile kingdom of Rome, based on the first beast being the gentile kingdom of Babylon, the second being the gentile kingdom of Persia, and the third being the gentile kingdom of Greece.

 

[Zao is life]

I guess my point wasn’t to demonstrate what I believe the identity of the fourth beast is, but to draw attention the fact that while the VISION shows the fourth beast as a whole being slain the EXPLANATION only shows the little horn being slain.

As far as the fourth beast’s identity, I do believe it refers to gentile kingdom of Rome, based on the first beast being the gentile kingdom of Babylon, the second being the gentile kingdom of Persia, and the third being the gentile kingdom of Greece.

Thanks for the explanation.

Whether he (the man of sin) be an African, an American Indian, an Australian Aboriginal, a Mauri of New Zealand, or Chinese, Japanese or a Caucasian from the West, Antiochus IV and what he did is the type that foreshadows the man of sin.

@claninja edited my silly joke out.

But if anyone adheres to an eschatology that forbids the man of sin from appearing outside of the 1st Century A.D or beyond the first five or six centuries A.D, then none of this will be of any significance to you, of course.

 

[5thKingdom]

I think this is a really interesting question.

The visions seen by Daniel mention 4 beasts that rise from the sea, with the last beast having 10 horns and a little horn, followed by the ancient of days opening the books and the courts convening, followed the fourth beast being slain and thrown in the fire, followed by the son of man coming on the clouds to receive a kingdom.

Daniel is then given the general explanation for all these visions: four kingdoms that arise on earth but the saints would possess the kingdom forever. No explanation for the slaying of the fourth beast is given in the simple explanation.

Daniel 7:16-18 So he told me the interpretation of these things: 17‘These four great beasts are four kings who will arise from the earth.18But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’

When Daniel presses further for the explanation on the fourth beast, there is still no explanation of the beast as a whole being destroyed, only the little horn. But when the little horn is destroyed, its dominion is taken away and the dominion and sovereignty of all kingdoms are given to the saints.

First, the four "Kingdoms/Beasts" represent the


(1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom
(2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" specifically NAMED In Mat 22:2
(3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" specifically NAMED in Mat 13 [7 verses]
(4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" specifically NAMED in Mat 25:1


Second


The Bible PROMISES the TRUTH about Daniel's prophecies would remain "closed-up" and "sealed"
to all the Saints until the Last Saints "shall understand" (and preach) the TRUTH at the "Time-of-the-End"
[Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10]


NOW... if you REJECT the Word of God in Daniel 12
then I cannot help you and you cannot possibly find Biblical TRUTH


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

But if anyone adheres to an eschatology that forbids the man of sin from appearing outside of the 1st Century A.D or beyond the first five or six centuries A.D, then none of this will be of any significance to you, of course.

But, of course, it is THE BIBLE that promises the "Man of Sin" is "revealed" to the Last Saints
and destroyed by the Lord's Return.


Tell me please...
did the Lord Return in the first 5-6 centuries AD?
Then we can know absolutely that you do not understand the Gospel about this matter.


Th 2:8
And then [at the great "falling away"] shall that Wicked [Man of Sin] BE REVEALED [to the Last Saints]
whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


BTW... we know the Man of Sin is REVEALED to the Last Saints because the Last Saints are LIVING on earth
when the Lord DESTROYS him "with the Brightness of His Coming".


This is not hard


Jim

 

[claninja]

First, the four "Kingdoms/Beasts" represent the


(1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom
(2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" specifically NAMED In Mat 22:2
(3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" specifically NAMED in Mat 13 [7 verses]
(4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" specifically NAMED in Mat 25:1

Any serious biblical scholarship teach this? Or is this your own personal made up theology?

 

[claninja]

But if anyone adheres to an eschatology that forbids the man of sin from appearing outside of the 1st Century A.D or beyond the first five or six centuries A.D, then none of this will be of any significance to you, of course.

I suppose if some believe that the “mystery” of lawlessness was already at work in the first century, AND the “revealing” of the man of sin was being restrained in the first century, AND the first century church knew what was presently restraining said revealing, it would be difficult from an audience relevant standpoint to put the man of sin 2,000 years later away from the thessalonians, especially considering Daniels 4 kingdoms but the saints possessing the kingdom forever.

 

[Zao is life]

I suppose if some believe that the “mystery” of lawlessness was already at work in the first century, AND the “revealing” of the man of sin was being restrained in the first century, AND the first century church knew what was presently restraining said revealing, it would be difficult from an audience relevant standpoint to put the man of sin 2,000 years later away from the thessalonians, especially considering Daniels 4 kingdoms but the saints possessing the kingdom forever.

I suppose that if we assume that the first century church knew what was presently restraining said revealing (the first century church and the ECF certainly wrote a whole lot about it I guess, but what they all wrote must have got lost somehow I guess), and if we assume that from the audience standpoint of the Thessalonians it was about to happen in their own generation, then we can take the prophecy and place it in the 'already happened' box. I guess. But then we would have to make those assumptions, despite the lack of evidence, as well as the assumption that Christ has returned and the man of sin was consumed with the brightness of His coming and all those lying miracles and working of Satan happened then, and none of it will ever come to pass again.

 

[Zao is life]

But, of course, it is THE BIBLE that promises the "Man of Sin" is "revealed" to the Last Saints
and destroyed by the Lord's Return.

Th 2:8
And then [at the great "falling away"] shall that Wicked [Man of Sin] BE REVEALED [to the Last Saints]
whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


BTW... we know the Man of Sin is REVEALED to the Last Saints because the Last Saints are LIVING on earth
when the Lord DESTROYS him "with the Brightness of His Coming".


This is not hard


Jim

Which claninja understood is what I believe and what my post implied - my post was implying the opposite of what I said. I do not believe the man of sin was revealed within the first 5 centuries A.D. He has not yet been revealed.

 

[claninja]

I suppose that if we assume that the first century church knew what was presently restraining said revealing

Paul stated they already knew what was presently restraining the man of sin, so no assumption needed there. It’s just unfortunate that Paul didn’t reveal what the restrainer was in his letter, so Christian’s wouldn’t be speculating 2,000 years later.

2 Thessalonians 2:5-6
5Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6And that which is restraining now, you have known, so that he may be revealed in his time

and if we assume that from the audience standpoint of the Thessalonians it was about to happen in their own generation,

Another assumption we don’t have to make. In the previous chapter, Paul told the Thessalonians that THEY would be granted relief from persecution at the coming of Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to grant relief to YOU who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels

There’s no doubt the first century Thessalonian church believed Christ would come in their generation. Imho, understanding this audience relevance in chapter 1 is important for understanding chapter 2.

and all those lying miracles and working of Satan happened then

Another assumption we don’t have to make. 1.) Paul states the mystery of lawlessness was already work and 2.) that presence of the man of sin “is existing” (present tense verb) by the works of Satan.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 9The presence of the lawless one IS by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders

 

[Zao is life]

Paul stated they already knew what was presently restraining the man of sin, so no assumption needed there.

Agreed. The assumption would only be made after another 1,900+ years that it happened in the first century.

6 And now you know what holds him back, for him to might be revealed in his own time.

Another assumption we don’t have to make. In the previous chapter, Paul told the Thessalonians that THEY would be granted relief from persecution at the coming of Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to grant relief to YOU who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels

I've also no doubt that the apostles did not know when these things would take place:

36 But of that day and hour no one knows, no, not the angels of Heaven, but only My Father. Matthew 24.

So Paul was speaking to all Christians across the Age who would ever be persecuted by unbelievers - and he did not claim that it would take place in the lifetime of the Thessalonian church who were the first to receive the letter to them - because Paul was not a liar and if he had claimed it would take place in their lifetime, He would have been calling Jesus a liar:

36 But of that day and hour no one knows, no, not the angels of Heaven, but only My Father. Matthew 24.

Your interpretation is making Paul out to be a liar who claimed to know better than Jesus about when the prophesied return of Christ would come.

There’s no doubt the first century Thessalonian church believed Christ would come in their generation. Imho, understanding this audience relevance in chapter 1 is important for understanding chapter 2.

They did not claim to know when Jesus would return, neither did Paul. They did not call Jesus a liar. They may have believed that Jesus would return in their lifetime, just like our generation does, and just as many generations between theirs and ours have done.

Still, He has not come:

3 First, knowing this, that there will come in the last days scoffers walking according to their own lusts
4 and saying, Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.
5 For this is hidden from them by their willing it, that the heavens were of old, and the earth out of the water, and through water, being held together by the word of God,
6 through which the world that then was, being flooded by water, perished.
7 But the present heavens and the earth being kept in store by the same word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, let not this one thing be hidden from you, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any of us should perish, but that all of us should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a rushing noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat. And the earth and the works in it will be burned up. 2 Peter 3

But you claim, "Oh they knew it would happen in their first century generation, because Paul knew it, and told them".

Except that Paul told them no such thing, because Jesus told the apostles and disciples who were His eyewitnesses, that no one would know the day or the hour of His return, and Peter told the churches that His return would come as a thief in the night and implied that it would be after a long, long time, so that people would be mocking the idea of the return of Christ by the time He returns.

But you claim, "Oh they knew it would happen in their first century generation, because Paul knew it, and told them".

Another assumption we don’t have to make. 1.) Paul states the mystery of lawlessness was already work and 2.) that presence of the man of sin “is existing” (present tense verb) by the works of Satan.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 9The presence of the lawless one IS by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders

Since the 1st century, the mystery of lawlessness has always been in the churches - it's referring to lawlessness in the churches, not the lawless deeds of unbelievers. And Paul was not telling of a lawlessness that does not still exist right up to this present day. So this fact does not prove your point in any way, shape or form. It's ridiculous to even cite Paul's revelation about lawlessness, as though it only existed in the first century. Eventually this same lawlessness will accompany and help the appearance of the man of sin.