The plan of creation: Did God create humans to prove a point?

[YahuahSaves]

will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord

You're a little too enthusiastic there^

My version simply says "declare". I highly doubt the adversary of God is going to be "whole-hearted" about anything, since he knows where he's ending up.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Behind every person should be an angelic force, such that flesh and blood is the meat in the sandwich.

Huh?

I noticed there are three Greek words translated "devil", each meaning something different, none referring to Greek mythology.

I was referring to the name "Lucifer", sorry.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Found something interesting...it seems the ancients thought differently than us. "Good and Evil" are actually "Order and Chaos".

"Very few sermons in our Western synagogues and churches would include the passage "I [God] form the light and create darkness, I make peace and I create evil, I am the LORD who does all of these" (Isaiah 45:7) as our Western mind sees these two forces as opposing opposites. However, the Eastern mind sees them both as equals and necessary for perfect balance. In the Western mind, God is only good and therefore unable to create evil. The Eastern mind sees God as a perfect balance of all things including good (tov in Hebrew, Strong's #2896) and evil (ra in Hebrew, Strong's #7451).

It should be noted that the English word "evil" has no Ancient Hebrew equivalent, while most English translations will use the word "evil," it is usually the Hebrew word ra, which is also often translated as "bad." In the Ancient Hebrew mind there is no such thing as an "evil" person or thing. To understand the words "good" and "bad" from a more Hebraic understanding, these words should be understood as "functional" and "dysfunctional". God is both functional (such as seen in the Creation Story of Genesis one) as well as dysfunctional (such as seen with the destruction of the flood)." See: Good and Bad Also see: The Nature of God

 

[Mark Quayle]

Assuming you guys are discussing Philippians 2:10-11, you are missing the thrust of the definition of "acknowledge".
Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Of course they do! How they do other? I'm fail to see how this is heart-submission for the lost and the demons. He has rejected them.

 

[sparow]

Huh?


I was referring to the name "Lucifer", sorry.

Lucifer is from Roman folklore; it is a translator's choice and from the translations I have the KJV is the only one to use Lucifer; it means "light bringer", which doesn't fit Satan.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Lucifer is from Roman folklore; it is a translator's choice and from the translations I have the KJV is the only one to use Lucifer; it means "light bringer", which doesn't fit Satan.

Yes, its based on mythology, as I stated. As for the term "light bringer" scripture says "Even satan can masquerade as an angel of light",etc.

 

[Mark Quayle]

There's scriptures to support. I will be doing another thread some time on this very subject once I have my notes together

I.e. you will be describing what you mean by 'from'? Hope so.

 

[sparow]

Yes, its based on mythology, as I stated. As for the term "light bringer" scripture says "Even satan can masquerade as an angel of light",etc.

No no, the mythology is provided by the translator/interpreters. Satan has already appeared as an angel of light as recorded in ACTS.

 

[YahuahSaves]

I.e. you will be describing what you mean by 'from'? Hope so.

Yep. It's pretty in depth though when you go into the scriptures. Not sure I'll succeed in a summary, but I will attempt to. Won't have time the next few days so maybe by the weekend I'll create a new thread

 

[YahuahSaves]

No no, the mythology is provided by the translator/interpreters. Satan has already appeared as an angel of light as recorded in ACTS.

Yes, the name was absorbed into Christianity by the translators. Exactly the point I was trying to make. The hebrew is hêlēl.

Lucifer
Lucifer is one of various figures in folklore associated with the planet Venus.Wikipedia

"In Roman folklore, Lucifer ("light-bringer" in Latin) was the name of the planet Venus, though it was often personified as a male figure bearing a torch. The Greek name for this planet was variously Phosphoros (also meaning "light-bringer") or Heosphoros (meaning "dawn-bringer").[10] Lucifer was said to be "the fabled son of Aurora[11] and Cephalus, and father of Ceyx". He was often presented in poetry as heralding the dawn.[10]"

 

[Saint Steven]

You're a little too enthusiastic there^

My version simply says "declare". I highly doubt the adversary of God is going to be "whole-hearted" about anything, since he knows where he's ending up.

I have a theory. Mostly humor...

In the afterlife, EVERYONE will be surprised at where they end up.

Jesus said, "Everyone will be salted with fire." - Mark 9:49

 

[Saint Steven]

Of course they do! How they do other? I'm fail to see how this is heart-submission for the lost and the demons. He has rejected them.

Sounds like the Calvinism talking.

What does Jesus teach us about our relationship with our enemies?
We are to love them. --- This is godly behavior.
"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." - Matthew 5:48 NIV

What does this tell us that God will do with his own enemies? Incinerate them?
Only if he operates at a lower standard than he holds us to.

"If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? ..." - Matthew 5:46 NIV

 

[YahuahSaves]

I have a theory. Mostly humor...

In the afterlife, EVERYONE will be surprised at where they end up.

Jesus said, "Everyone will be salted with fire." - Mark 9:49

I think reading it in context it's talking about believers.

Mark 9:49-50

49 “For everyone will be tested with fire.[a] 50 Salt is good for seasoning. But if it loses its flavor, how do you make it salty again? You must have the qualities of salt among yourselves and live in peace with each other.”

But, aside, an interesting video I shared a while back on the significance of salt and why the symbolism was used by Jesus Here

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yep. It's pretty in depth though when you go into the scriptures. Not sure I'll succeed in a summary, but I will attempt to. Won't have time the next few days so maybe by the weekend I'll create a new thread

Perhaps you can link me there, so I don't miss it.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yhwh always knows, always knew where ever creature, every human, every angel, everything in existence is.

Pretty impressive.
I'm lucky if I can find my car keys.

 

[Saint Steven]

I think reading it in context it's talking about believers.

Mark 9:49-50

49 “For everyone will be tested with fire.[a] 50 Salt is good for seasoning. But if it loses its flavor, how do you make it salty again? You must have the qualities of salt among yourselves and live in peace with each other.”

But, aside, an interesting video I shared a while back on the significance of salt and why the symbolism was used by Jesus Here

Exactly. Included anyway.

Mark 9:48-49
where
“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’[a]
49 Everyone will be salted with fire.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Exactly. Included anyway.

Mark 9:48-49
where
“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’[a]
49 Everyone will be salted with fire.

Jesus was talking symbolically about the worms that never die. I found a historical article a while back about the place the children were sacrificed to false god's in the bible got turned into a rubbish tip and there were fires etc. I never bookmarked it but if I ever find it again I'll share it

 

[fhansen]

Interesting topic, thanks.

Definitely more than "some". (but, I'm sure you didn't mean to limit God's omniscience)
God knew before he created everything, what was going to happen with ALL of his created beings.

God is God, of course. Why would God have to "display his glory"? Isn't he glorious enough as is?
Same with his power and authority. What does he have to prove? And to whom?

What if, for example sake, we applied these characteristics to a human? See below.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Imagine a larger than average sixth grade boy pushing his way into a group of first graders on the playground.
He begins by asking them academic questions to prove that he is smarter than they are.
And berates them for their inferior knowledge.

Next he demonstrates his authority. The playground supervisor has enlisted his help to keep things in order.
So he knows all the rules and helps to enforce them. He takes away their ball because they violated a rule.

Then he finds the largest boy in the group to belittle and push around, thus proving his power.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

With that mental picture in mind, why would God behave that way?

I suppose what you mean by the word "some" from your post quote above,
is that SOME, meaning NOT ALL, would CHOOSE not to _____________. (fill in the blank.
Not believe, not follow, disobey, and the like.
Thus separating all his created humankind into TWO groups.

This strikes me as a reverse engineered apologetic to support a doctrinal position.
With a long, very long post, of support data following the same trajectory.

Let's return to the playground with another view.

I realize that every analogy breaks down at some point.
So focus on the over all message rather than pick at the details, if you would. Thanks

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Imagine a larger than average sixth grade boy finding his way into a group of first graders on the playground.

He introduces himself and asks the first graders their names too.
During introductions he learns that one of the children fell and skinned a knee.
After inspecting the knee, he gets a first aid kit to clean it up a bit.

At this point the children are really becoming attached to the sixth grade boy.
One of them asks if he will read a book to them. They all gather around and enjoy listening.

Then recess time is over. The children beg the sixth grader to come back tomorrow.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Which sixth grader best represents your view of God?

Everything God does is motivated by love, the highest good. He needs to prove nothing to anyone. Having said that, man cannot and will not love as he should until he begins to understand the vast difference between creature and Creator, of His infinite superiority. But Gods greatest glory is still His own love first above all else and as we begin to recognize and value that, the love He showed as He definitively revealed Himself through His Son, we begin to increasingly become like that which we now love, like Him. That’s His plan, His purpose in creating.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Exactly. Included anyway.

Mark 9:48-49
where
“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’[a]
49 Everyone will be salted with fire.

I just partially rewatched the video I shared in post #178 and was reminded Jesus explained what he meant by salt in Luke. It was used as a fertiliser in ancient times and being the salt of the earth (soil) means fertilising it.

Luke 14:34-35

34 “Salt is good for seasoning. But if it loses its flavor, how do you make it salty again? 35 Flavorless salt is good neither for the soil nor for the manure pile. It is thrown away. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!”

 

[Saint Steven]

I just partially rewatched the video I shared in post #178 and was reminded Jesus explained what he meant by salt in Luke. It was used as a fertiliser in ancient times and being the salt of the earth (soil) means fertilising it.

Luke 14:34-35

34 “Salt is good for seasoning. But if it loses its flavor, how do you make it salty again? 35 Flavorless salt is good neither for the soil nor for the manure pile. It is thrown away. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!”

That's informative, thanks.

In an attempt to understand Mark 9:49, we need to consider the context.
Especially where that verse lands in the passage. Sandwiched between vs 48 and 50 as its own paragraph really.
As I read it, vs 50 is saying, "Speaking of salt..."
Verse 49 seems much more connected to verse 48, "... and the fire is not quenched."


Mark 9:42-50 NIV
“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44] [a] 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46] [b] 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’[c]

49 Everyone will be salted with fire.


50 “Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with each other.”