The plan of creation: Did God create humans to prove a point?

[Clare73]

I don’t think he has to prove a point because who would he prove it to? But I think his plan was to have a creation that would willingly love and have interactive relationship with him . He could of created things that had to worship him but the deepest love is out of choice and the best way to do that is for his creation to be able to experience what it is like to live in a world that has rejected Yahwehs rule for there own rule. So now for thousands of years this earth has been under a curse and things have been really messed up by not living in Yahwehs love. But He has a plan to redeem the world and take all the curse into himself and in the end of all things, all of creation will experience life outside of Yahwehs perfect love and will never want to go back and then 1 Cor 15 God will be all in all and Yahweh will have his desire that his creation will all choose him and his plan is complete, for the rest of the ages his whole creation will walk in a loving relationship with him.

It's not about proving a point, it's about manifesting his goodness.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Because time is no more, there is no one available to him to devour.

So you believe the devil and demons will be annihilated?

 

[YahuahSaves]

It's not about proving a point, it's about manifesting his goodness.

Actually it's about manifesting his glory which he already did through his Son, the person of Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection on the Cross.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Yes...and what could that be? It seems to me like angels never die.

They never go to sleep, like the men sent to hell and the ones alive on the ground. They have been awake since God created them at the beginning of day1 of creation. There were given both trees and told to eat. That is why Satan could say what he said to eve when they first met in Ge:3.
The punishment verses in Isa:65 are for the people Jesus sends to hell, the fallen angels in the lake would go through something similar, only on a scale where they feel pain, sorrow and all the other emotions that made Adam and Eve capable of being parents as well as looking after all other flesh in a way where everyone thrived.

That open up a possibility if there is a 'first resurrection' for those of the 1st heaven (dry land to rain cloud height) then there could be a 'second resurrection' for those that died twice.

Jude:1:12:
These are spots in your feasts of charity,
when they feast with you,
feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water,
carried about of winds;
trees whose fruit withereth,
without fruit,
twice dead,
plucked up by the roots;

If there is a 'second resurrection', the people alive for the 1,000 years and the new era until a certain point that would force God to bring them to Mount Sion, that is where perfected angels go. Some people from the courtyard move into the city. The ascend rate could be as short as every 120 years (earth time) 120,000 (angelic time)
That would be the time the lake could give up the fallen angels as 'prisoners' who have completed their sentence.

Satan falling for the eat/do not eat rule doesn't sound like he was even close to being the smartest, . . . unless it was an intentional move on his part, as well as what the 'sons of God' did in Ge:6. The short story is it cost them their place at Mount Sion.
Satan the good angel would have chatted with God, the Holy Spirit, their creators and Christ, their High Priest to a conversation that went something like this. The new heaven place you saw when you were created has so many thrones that there were no spare seats. If nobody sins. they will be back after the earth has ended it's 'birthing pang' stage.
If it goes that way nobody could be given in marriage because they were created as an 'odd number' thingy. That would also mean no children could ever be born. The offer Satan is given is about doing something that will result in the number is an even number that allows enough seats that would be the number of children. The math 3/3 is reduced to 2/3, who are then married and each couple has 1 child. The number of children that show up is the same number of angels that end up being sent to the lake. What they are missing that other angels experience is the 'other flesh' that was created on this earth ascends to the same Re:4 Temple, and then the 4 Beasts take then out of the temple and give them a guided tour of the heaven they can see as spiritual beings (Enoch vision style) until there are some pastures in the new earth they can be resurrected to. Once there they have to eat to remain alive. They will have natural children as 'their flock' and will tell them about the sights they saw while travelling around the empty spaces of the new earth. At the age of 120 the children will transform go from being an eternal being to an immortal being who can travel the empty spaces as well so interact with the material parts of the universe. I would assume the changes would be talked about as well as some of 'the flock' would have to go there once there are some pastures there. That would be a choice of the child and the flesh he spent the most of his time with.

Fast-forward to the 2nd resurrection, perfected people ascend there as perfected beings who are not married. In the same Temple at the same time, all the fallen angels show up in their holiest garments, who also happen to be not married. . . . need I say more?
If angels and people were ever destined to be married, it is going to happen at that time.

The verses should be read, so they fit my intro above. The 'war' was with angels who had agreed that is a certain number of angels were destined to sin and suffer the lake before being gathered, they would rather it be them, rather than any of 'their friends':

War being a parade to jail rather than an all out street fight between immortals.
Re:12:7-12:
And there was war in heaven:
Michael and his angels fought against the dragon;
and the dragon fought and his angels,
And prevailed not;
neither was their place found any more in heaven.
And the great dragon was cast out,
that old serpent,
called the Devil,
and Satan,
which deceiveth the whole world:
he was cast out into the earth,
and his angels were cast out with him.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,
Now is come salvation,
and strength,
and the kingdom of our God,
and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down,
which accused them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb,
and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Therefore rejoice,
ye heavens,
and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you,
having great wrath,
because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Summation,
joy in heaven, so there are thrones that only children end up sitting on.
sorrow on earth as we have to be the place all the sins take place.

The Bible is about the sinful earth time only.

Enoch is new earth vision, get the early as NASA would claim Enoch stole the data from them.
Canada's frozen islands could be the tourist version of Mars for the ultra bored. There are lots of floods plains that would justify dredging enough silt to create islands that never flood, water streets would also allow fish to be led there by feeding them to the processing area rather than chasing them down with a net. There are lots of things we can do that ends up making life a lot easier for people in the future for a long, long time.

etc.

 

[YahuahSaves]

They never go to sleep, like the men sent to hell and the ones alive on the ground. They have been awake since God created them at the beginning of day1 of creation.

No where in your rambling do I see support for your view in scripture. You've put your own interpretation on it to the 9th degree. This explains why you believe the seraphim are God's parents. *smh*

Jude is talking about false teachers. They're "doubly dead" because they're spiritually dead, and in the end will be condemned to death never to be resurrected. We're talking about angels never dying, not humans. Only humans who have been resurrected to eternal life will "be like the angels" never dying. This is why the devil is "tormented" forever in the lake of fire, because as a fallen angel he cannot be destroyed, but throughout scripture it says human beings souls can be destroyed.

Genesis 3:2

22 Then the Lord God said, “Look, the human beings[a] have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!”

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Here is what I look like when I 'ramble':

In my version, you can have sinless men and sinless angels in the same location at the same time. I need more convincing, carry on.
Heb:12:22-23:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

 

[Mark Quayle]

I agree that God is not subhuman. But we know what that means. Less than human. A tyrant is subhuman.
Some, by definition, declare God subhuman. We are appalled by examples in human history.
But give God carte blanche? (to be subhuman)

By definition of his activities?

We can't give nor take carte blanche to nor from God. I know you were speaking rhetorically, and I'm not playing you here. My point is that whatever Scripture teaches that God does, we can't soften it with our reasoning. It isn't ours to do.

I usually don't refer to it as the LOF. We will all be salted with fire. Believer and unbeliever alike. (restoration)

But you are referring to the same thing? Meaning, to you believers too will undergo the purification of fire with the unbelievers? Besides the passage that speaks of being salted with fire, do you have any others?

I think the confession will come after the fire. They will then be of the state of mind to mean it then. (restored)

Meaning, they will be born again, not of the Spirit of God, but by purification of their sin in the fire? Sounds to me like reasoning —not scripture.

 

[YahuahSaves]

No where in your rambling do I see support for your view in scripture. You've put your own interpretation on it to the 9th degree

Here is what I look like when I 'ramble':

I rest my case.

 

[Saint Steven]

By definition of his activities?

We can't give nor take carte blanche to nor from God. I know you were speaking rhetorically, and I'm not playing you here. My point is that whatever Scripture teaches that God does, we can't soften it with our reasoning. It isn't ours to do.

I hear that a lot. Reasoning, emotionalism, modernism, liberal theology, and the like.

From my perspective, we have been fed this view from our earliest age. So of course we grow to accept it without question. After all, who are we to question God, right? His ways are higher than our ways, beyond our comprehension...

That's true until it isn't. Incinerating a conscious human is not love. This should be easy to comprehend.
The use of spiritual extortion as a threat to get a conversion is just plain wrong. IMHO

Is a relationship with God so repugnant that we need to force people into it?

But you are referring to the same thing? Meaning, to you believers too will undergo the purification of fire with the unbelievers? Besides the passage that speaks of being salted with fire, do you have any others?

Great question, thanks. Yes...
We typically limit the judgment of works to believers only. (scripture below) But I think it is the perfect description of what I am describing that everyone will go through. Which needs to include an accountability to every idle word and thought and every deed. All out in the open for everyone to see.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 NIV
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Meaning, they will be born again, not of the Spirit of God, but by purification of their sin in the fire? Sounds to me like reasoning —not scripture.

Born again is another term I don't use in relation to this process. But that may be the case, not sure. Jesus said we couldn't see the kingdom unless were were born again. May be no way around that. Thanks for bringing it up. More thought needed...

Restoration is the key thing. And it will be wide spread. All of creation.

 

[Mark Quayle]

That's true until it isn't. Incinerating a conscious human is not love. This should be easy to comprehend.
The use of spiritual extortion as a threat to get a conversion is just plain wrong. IMHO

Not to go into what has already been argued here, concerning incineration of a human, but as Reformed, I don't believe in spiritual extortion to get a conversion.

Is a relationship with God so repugnant that we need to force people into it?

Well, it is to that degree repugnant to the unbeliever, (though it sounds silly to describe it like that —after all, we cannot force anyone into it). Nor would I use the word, 'force', to describe what God does to the Elect to save them, anymore than I would use it to describe what God does to every person in their first birth.

Great question, thanks. Yes...
We typically limit the judgment of works to believers only. (scripture below) But I think it is the perfect description of what I am describing that everyone will go through. Which needs to include an accountability to every idle word and thought and every deed. All out in the open for everyone to see.

That wasn't my question. I'm talking about salvation and regeneration in particular, not judgement of works. It is not only our deeds that condemn us, nor even our thoughts, but our very nature 'in Adam' to which we were all born, not to mention also the sin God has imputed to our account, analogous to (and previous to) the righteousness imputed to us who are in Christ. The unbeliever lacks that righteousness.

Born again is another term I don't use in relation to this process. But that may be the case, not sure. Jesus said we couldn't see the kingdom unless were were born again. May be no way around that. Thanks for bringing it up. More thought needed...

Restoration is the key thing. And it will be wide spread. All of creation.

I'm relieved, at least, that you see "salted by fire" to be a reference to the works, and not to condemnation of the soul.

But regeneration is the key thing in this question bearing on what happens after one has died. That is, that one must be born again, to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. And I have seen no scripture that I can (so far) consider to be referring to an opportunity after physical temporal death to repent and be forgiven.

Restoration may be quite a more severe thing than you realize. We are not informed just what all it will entail. The assumption that it is something we can rewind to Eden is a bit presumptuous, I believe, for the small mind and knowledge that humans possess, to be undertaking. Also, because of Christ, the restoration has already taken place, even though we don't yet see all things under subjection to him.

 

[Clare73]

Actually it's about manifesting his glory which he already did through his Son, the person of Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection on the Cross.

The glory of his goodness. . .through what the Son accomplished.

 

[Clare73]

So you believe the devil and demons will be annihilated?

No, I believe the born again are secure in heaven, or wherever.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

I rest my case.

You never had a case.
My reply was based on you insulting my relationship with God and how I explain it. Missed my scripture based comments, as well as what else I say. Not really having a good day, are you?

 

[Saint Steven]

That wasn't my question. I'm talking about salvation and regeneration in particular, not judgement of works. It is not only our deeds that condemn us, nor even our thoughts, but our very nature 'in Adam' to which we were all born, not to mention also the sin God has imputed to our account, analogous to (and previous to) the righteousness imputed to us who are in Christ. The unbeliever lacks that righteousness.

The age of restoration isn't about salvation. That was already dealt with on the cross.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Saint Steven]

Restoration may be quite a more severe thing than you realize. We are not informed just what all it will entail.

I anticipate that it will be quite severe for some. Jesus said it best.

Matthew 21:31 NIV
... Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.

 

[Clare73]

The age of restoration isn't about salvation. That was already dealt with on the cross.
Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all those born of (the first) Adam,
so also one act of righteousness resulted in justification for all those born of (the second Adam) Christ.

 

[YahuahSaves]

You never had a case.
My reply was based on you insulting my relationship with God and how I explain it. Missed my scripture based comments, as well as what else I say. Not really having a good day, are you?

I didn't insult your relationship with God. I pointed out your scripture quotes are long, rambling, have often got nothing to do with the subject at hand, and not formatted to clearly show the scriptures you're referencing so people can quickly check it for themselves. You believe the Seraphim are God's parents and Jesus is going to be married to Mary in the new earth. That's not an insult to point that out, that's just telling you it's not Scriptural.

 

[YahuahSaves]

The glory of his goodness. . .through what the Son accomplished.

Yes, he DEFEATED sin and death. And by doing that, essentially, the devil. (Glory=battle armaments).

No, I believe the born again are secure in heaven, or wherever.

OK, completely irrelevant^ to the discussion we were having.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

I didn't insult your relationship with God. I pointed out your scripture quotes are long, rambling, have often got nothing to do with the subject at hand, and not formatted to clearly show the scriptures you're referencing so people can quickly check it for themselves. You believe the Seraphim are God's parents and Jesus is going to be married to Mary in the new earth. That's not an insult to point that out, that's just telling you it's not Scriptural.

Actually taking the time to reply to my post is how an adult acts, your current method is not.
Later, much, much later.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Actually taking the time to reply to my post is how an adult acts, your current method is not.
Later, much, much later.

I told you to be clear, stay on subject and format your post properly so it makes sense. You tend to ramble about seemingly irrelevant subjects not related to the topic at hand. I'm sorry if you find it offensive, but I can't genuinely respond to a post where you are making no sense. Look up "effective communication" please.