Universalism and Grace

[Hmm]

Is anyone really sorry about anything?

Infernalism says that we must genuinely repent of all our sins in this life in order to be saved from the punishment of eternal torture. But is this even possible and has anyone ever managed to do it? Can anyone here say that they have faced up to the full extent of their sins and the effects that this has had on others?

It just doesn't seem possible to me. It would involve so much guilt, shame and pain that I don't think anyone could ever do it. The truth of our sin is too searing a light for anyone to look at directly. We'd get so far but then get stuck in a guilt-ridden and painful state, unable to move on and function properly. The Orthodox theologian Brad Jersak said that if Hitler was capable of facing up to the magnitude of his sin he wouldn't ever have become Hitler in the first place. And the same applies to us all.

So would God set us such an impossible task that we have to succeed at before He forgives us? Or is this way of looking at things wrong?

I believe it shows a misunderstanding of grace. The truth is that God forgives us freely, not because of anything we do but because of who He is. He doesn't ask us to face up to every single one of our sins because this is impossible for us. Instead, He washes them away and it's then as if they never existed. If we find that that truth would make God unjust when applied to Hitler or our worst enemies then we should also feel it unjust when applied to ourselves. If we are happy to accept a grace that washes away our sins then we can't object to any other child of God receiving that same grace.

The universalist view binds grace and repentance together. It is that Hitler will be transformed in the fire of God's presence as his ignorant prejudices, hatreds and fears are burned away:

10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building on it. Let each builder choose with care how to build on it. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 the work of each builder will become visible, for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. 14 If the work that someone has built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a wage. 15 If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.
Corinthians 3:10-15

It's not Hitler who will be destroyed, but his sin. The fire is a destroying fire for sin but a refining fire for us. "For he is like a refiner's fire", Malachi 3:2. God wouldn't be much of a refiner if He destroyed the person He was refining. So this refining process is carried out in love, not anger. God's love and grace come first and our genuine repentance and transformation second, following on from this in the context of God's love. It's not the other way around as Infernalism believes. Universalism is the deeper and earlier Christian view.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Is anyone really sorry about anything?

Infernalism says that we must genuinely repent of all our sins in this life in order to be saved from the punishment of eternal torture. But is this even possible and has anyone ever managed to do it? Can anyone here say that they have faced up to the full extent of their sins and the effects that this has had on others?

It just doesn't seem possible to me. It would involve so much guilt, shame and pain that I don't think anyone could ever do it. The truth of our sin is too searing a light for anyone to look at directly. We'd get so far but then get stuck in a guilt-ridden and painful state, unable to move on and function properly. The Orthodox theologian Brad Jersak said that if Hitler was capable of facing up to the magnitude of his sin he wouldn't ever have become Hitler in the first place. And the same applies to us all.

So would God set us such an impossible task that we have to succeed at before He forgives us? Or is this way of looking at things wrong?

I believe it shows a misunderstanding of grace. The truth is that God forgives us freely, not because of anything we do but because of who He is. He doesn't ask us to face up to every single one of our sins because this is impossible for us. Instead, He washes them away and it's then as if they never existed. If we find that that truth would make God unjust when applied to Hitler or our worst enemies then we should also feel it unjust when applied to ourselves. If we are happy to accept a grace that washes away our sins then we can't object to any other child of God receiving that same grace.

The universalist view binds grace and repentance together. It is that Hitler will be transformed in the fire of God's presence as his ignorant prejudices, hatreds and fears are burned away:

10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building on it. Let each builder choose with care how to build on it. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 the work of each builder will become visible, for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. 14 If the work that someone has built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a wage. 15 If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.
Corinthians 3:10-15

It's not Hitler who will be destroyed, but his sin. The fire is a destroying fire for sin but a refining fire for us. "For he is like a refiner's fire", Malachi 3:2. God wouldn't be much of a refiner if He destroyed the person He was refining. So this refining process is carried out in love, not anger. God's love and grace come first and our genuine repentance and transformation second, following on from this in the context of God's love. It's not the other way around as Infernalism believes. Universalism is the deeper and earlier Christian view.

Repentance is the changing of one's mind. This is one of His Holy Spirit's helping hand in our life. He helps us change our mind and turn away from sin. It's kind of miraculous because sins begin to fall away , maybe not all at once, but one by one they begin to disappear. And it does start with our desire to change because we love Him. So I can honestly say I have Him in my life. I am not sinless however , there are sins that are now well behind me. Blessings.

 

[Hmm]

I am not sinless however

That's the point I'm making, really. We all die as sinners. No one truly repents of all their sin in this life. It's too much for us.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

That's the point I'm making, really. We all die as sinners. No one truly repents of all their sin in this life. It's too much for us.

I'm guessing your not interested in the rest of my post ?

 

[Hmm]

I'm guessing your not interested in the rest of my post ?

You guess wrong. I just didn't want to hog the conversation so only wanted to mention one point on which we agree.

Since you ask, I largely agree with your post, apart from when you say:

And it does start with our desire to change because we love Him.

We can only love Him because He has revealed something of Himself to us first, in Jesus above all.

So it doesn't actually start with our desire to change. It starts with His grace. And similarly with our repentance.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

You guess wrong. I just didn't want to hog the conversation so only wanted to mention one point on which we agree.

Since you ask, I largely agree with your post, apart from when you say:



We can only love Him because He has revealed something of Himself to us first, in Jesus above all.

So it doesn't actually start with our desire to change. It starts with His grace. And similarly with our repentance.

My thoughts.....
We start first by repenting from unbelief to belief. Then He makes His Home in us through His Holy Spirit. Grace is God's gift of His only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, in order to restore a direct relationship with us through His Holy Spirit. We are drawn to Him by hearing, then a prick of the heart, then repentance from unbelief to belief happens. This is the point of regeneration. I personally believe our love for Him begins with the pricking of the heart. Blessings

 

[Hmm]

I personally believe our love for Him begins with the pricking of the heart.

I agree, but who's doing the pricking? Isn't that evidence of grace first?

 

[All Becomes New]

The fire is a destroying fire for sin but a refining fire for us.

Baseless.

Why does the Holy Spirit convict us of sin unless we are unable to see it ourselves? Are non-Christians sensitive to their own sin? How about the small ones? No, they ignore those things because they don't have the Spirit. To think you can gain the Spirit after death is anti-Biblical and there's not a shred of evidence for it in the whole Bible.

Daniel 12:2 CSB17
“Many who sleep in the dust
of the earth will awake,
some to eternal life,
and some to disgrace and eternal contempt.”

You exegete that verse and I will answer any questions you have.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I agree, but who's doing the pricking? Isn't that evidence of grace first?

Jesus Christ of Nazareth is Grace. God granted His Son to all . Each of us is responsible for choosing Him.
Note: I am not a Calvinist.

 

[Hmm]

Jesus Christ of Nazareth is Grace. God granted His Son to all . Each of us is responsible for choosing Him.

That's the universalist belief too. But of course, we have to know Him before we can choose Him.

Note: I am not a Calvinist.

I never thought you were! You wouldn't be talking about responsibility and choice if you were.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

That's the universalist belief too. But of course, we have to know Him before we can choose Him.

Well I am not a Universalist either.
I'm sure there are varying degrees of Universalism but my understanding is this view teaches that all human beings will ultimately be saved and restored to a right relationship with God regardless of faith.

 

[Hmm]

Well I am not a Universalist either.
I'm sure there are varying degrees of Universalism but my understanding is this view teaches that all human beings will ultimately be saved and restored to a right relationship with God regardless of faith.

Not "regardless of faith", but rather that "all human beings will ultimately [gain faith and so] be saved and restored to a right relationship with God".

 

[Hmm]

I will answer any questions you have.

Umm... you're okay but thanks.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Not "regardless of faith", but rather that "all human beings will ultimately [gain faith and so] be saved and restored to a right relationship with God".

Gain faith after death?

 

[Hmm]

Gain faith after death?

Yes. This is when the refining process that we are all going to go through takes place. We will all be "salted with fire" Mark 9:49. I know that's not something that's taught much nowadays.

 

[All Becomes New]

Yes

We won't need faith in the afterlife.

 

[public hermit]

Is anyone really sorry about anything?

Infernalism says that we must genuinely repent of all our sins in this life in order to be saved from the punishment of eternal torture. But is this even possible and has anyone ever managed to do it? Can anyone here say that they have faced up to the full extent of their sins and the effects that this has had on others?

It just doesn't seem possible to me. It would involve so much guilt, shame and pain that I don't think anyone could ever do it. The truth of our sin is too searing a light for anyone to look at directly. We'd get so far but then get stuck in a guilt-ridden and painful state, unable to move on and function properly. The Orthodox theologian Brad Jersak said that if Hitler was capable of facing up to the magnitude of his sin he wouldn't ever have become Hitler in the first place. And the same applies to us all.

So would God set us such an impossible task that we have to succeed at before He forgives us? Or is this way of looking at things wrong?

I believe it shows a misunderstanding of grace. The truth is that God forgives us freely, not because of anything we do but because of who He is. He doesn't ask us to face up to every single one of our sins because this is impossible for us. Instead, He washes them away and it's then as if they never existed. If we find that that truth would make God unjust when applied to Hitler or our worst enemies then we should also feel it unjust when applied to ourselves. If we are happy to accept a grace that washes away our sins then we can't object to any other child of God receiving that same grace.

The universalist view binds grace and repentance together. It is that Hitler will be transformed in the fire of God's presence as his ignorant prejudices, hatreds and fears are burned away:

10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building on it. Let each builder choose with care how to build on it. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 the work of each builder will become visible, for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. 14 If the work that someone has built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a wage. 15 If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.
Corinthians 3:10-15

It's not Hitler who will be destroyed, but his sin. The fire is a destroying fire for sin but a refining fire for us. "For he is like a refiner's fire", Malachi 3:2. God wouldn't be much of a refiner if He destroyed the person He was refining. So this refining process is carried out in love, not anger. God's love and grace come first and our genuine repentance and transformation second, following on from this in the context of God's love. It's not the other way around as Infernalism believes. Universalism is the deeper and earlier Christian view.

To me, it's odd that most Christians will be adamant that we are saved by grace, but then they will add qualifiers to indicate why they deserve grace and others don't, and usually that qualifier is either faith (Arminians/Pelagians) or divine sovereignty (Calvinists/Augustianians).

The Arminians/Pelagians end up placing faith as the primary mechanism for salvation, thus making grace a divine response to human choice. The Calvinists/Augustinians make the primary mechanism of salvation not grace but the arbitrary movement of the divine will, thus negating the goodness and love of God.

Both positions clarify the primary issue: either God is unable to save all or God is unwilling.

UR asserts that God is both able and willing to save all those whom God has created in the divine image, making coherent the biblical claims that God is all-powerful, good, and loving. Significantly for this thread, UR's position offers the most robust understanding of grace since God is the sole mechanism of salvation and this act is not arbitrary but wholly commensurate with the divine nature.

 

[bling]

Is anyone really sorry about anything?

Infernalism says that we must genuinely repent of all our sins in this life in order to be saved from the punishment of eternal torture. But is this even possible and has anyone ever managed to do it? Can anyone here say that they have faced up to the full extent of their sins and the effects that this has had on others?

It just doesn't seem possible to me. It would involve so much guilt, shame and pain that I don't think anyone could ever do it. The truth of our sin is too searing a light for anyone to look at directly. We'd get so far but then get stuck in a guilt-ridden and painful state, unable to move on and function properly. The Orthodox theologian Brad Jersak said that if Hitler was capable of facing up to the magnitude of his sin he wouldn't ever have become Hitler in the first place. And the same applies to us all.

So would God set us such an impossible task that we have to succeed at before He forgives us? Or is this way of looking at things wrong?

I believe it shows a misunderstanding of grace. The truth is that God forgives us freely, not because of anything we do but because of who He is. He doesn't ask us to face up to every single one of our sins because this is impossible for us. Instead, He washes them away and it's then as if they never existed. If we find that that truth would make God unjust when applied to Hitler or our worst enemies then we should also feel it unjust when applied to ourselves. If we are happy to accept a grace that washes away our sins then we can't object to any other child of God receiving that same grace.

The universalist view binds grace and repentance together. It is that Hitler will be transformed in the fire of God's presence as his ignorant prejudices, hatreds and fears are burned away:

10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building on it. Let each builder choose with care how to build on it. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 the work of each builder will become visible, for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. 14 If the work that someone has built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a wage. 15 If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.
Corinthians 3:10-15

It's not Hitler who will be destroyed, but his sin. The fire is a destroying fire for sin but a refining fire for us. "For he is like a refiner's fire", Malachi 3:2. God wouldn't be much of a refiner if He destroyed the person He was refining. So this refining process is carried out in love, not anger. God's love and grace come first and our genuine repentance and transformation second, following on from this in the context of God's love. It's not the other way around as Infernalism believes. Universalism is the deeper and earlier Christian view.

Hidden in your statement is: “If we are happy to accept a grace that washes away our sins then we can't object to any other child of God receiving that same grace.”

Most people are not “happy” to make the free will choice to humble themselves to the point of accepting pure, undeserved sacrificial charity.

If you put their feet to the fire, they will “accept”, but that is not their personal free will choice with other likely alternatives.

God is doing all He can, to help people still able to choose to accept His charity as charity (Love), but there is a point at which the individual will never humbly accept charity as charity of their own free will with other likely alternatives.

You also say: “It's not Hitler who will be destroyed, but his sin.”

Sin is not a “tangible” thing that can be “destroyed”, history cannot be changed (it happened), so when sin happens you cannot have a do over to take it away. The sinner can be forgiven, but sin itself cannot be forgiven, since sin did nothing of its own. The sinner Hitler can be annihilated, but his sins cannot be annihilated (they happened).

 

[bling]

We won't need faith in the afterlife.

Those who have knowledge.

 

[Hmm]

Most people are not “happy” to make the free will choice to humble themselves to the point of accepting pure, undeserved sacrificial charity.

But isn't that because most people don't see the need to humble themselves to the extent you describe? If they did, I agree, most would not be "happy" to do it. It would be too much. We're kind of in agreement because it's much like the point in the OP that fully acknowledging our sin is too much for us. However, most people do believe they are saved and are happy to believe this.

Sin is not a “tangible” thing that can be “destroyed”, history cannot be changed (it happened), so when sin happens you cannot have a do over to take it away. The sinner can be forgiven, but sin itself cannot be forgiven, since sin did nothing of its own. The sinner Hitler can be annihilated, but his sins cannot be annihilated (they happened).

Why can't Hitler's sin be destroyed just because it once happened? By the same logic, Hitler can't be destroyed because he also happened.